Tackling Islamic Extremism in India

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surinder
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Post by surinder »

shiv wrote:Maybe I should rename this thread "Learning to love the Islamic Republic of India"

I believe it is shameful and insulting to be forced to swallow the idea that the behavior of India as a nation is similar to that of any Islamic nation in accepting without murmur bias against non Muslims and reacting with indignation or anger at any transgression against Islam.
...
We are welcome to continue to be an islamic state in word and deed - but we have to boot out Islam where it impinges on our laws, our constitution and our ways.
Shiv,

I cannot quote your whole post ... it is long, but I agree 10000% with it. Thanks for saying it. The cognitive dissonance is there for us to see. We are unable to accept the reality.

Surinder
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Post by surinder »

Murugan wrote:
Not just survived, but truimphed. Spain was a 200% Muslim country for 500 years. Spanish recovered that land and denuded it of Islam.
And Chickend out when 200 were sent to Heaven!

Israel and other eurpeon countries are having backing of uncle. Here everyone is against us! One fine day unkil send its sevent fleet to save H&D of the great islamic countries... we were corenered.

***
Your response fits into the Izzlamic response so beautifully stated by Shiv: My fly is open & and my d*** is hanging out, but hey what is that speck on your tie. (Open fly vs. torn shirt).

Added later: By the way, why are the 1000 million Indians unable to face 150 million Pakis are so eager for the support of 250 million americans. Should they not be able to face the threat on their own? Is it not beggary that after 1000 years of suffering at the hands of Izzlamists, we are still begging.
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Post by indygill »

MuthuswamyM wrote:
I think you need to ask yourself why the political class is giving quotas unfairly to minorities at the expense of majority. The point is, the Indian islamists are extremely well-positioned to take advantage of the faultlines.
You are saying the "Indian islamists are extremely well-positioned to take advantage of the faultlines" and Rye is I guess pinpointing the exact tools within Indian establishment that Islamists used to well-positioned themselves.

MuthuswamyM wrote:
But you are claiming that somehow (?) India can fix this problm by itself
Yes India has to fix it itself else there is no salvation.

Let me post it again the following answer by Suraj Mal during third Battle of Panipat pinpoints the exact “scareâ€
Last edited by indygill on 30 Nov 2007 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
MuthuswamyM
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Re: Muslim extremism in India

Post by MuthuswamyM »

surinder wrote:
MuthuswamyM wrote:Jihad in India: An Interview with Moorthy Muthuswamy

url
I did not realize that the poster himself was the author. First and foremost, my deepest thanks for writing this book. I note that you are a Nuclear Physicts, so that is doubly creditable. You are saying truths that are difficult for anyone to say in public. My congragulations. How did you find the time/energy to write a book on a topic that is so far away from your area of expertise?

Surinder
Intimidation by Islamists bothered me growing up in India.

Over 12 years ago I arrived on a plane (from America) to my hometown. I found children at the airport fence looking at awe, the big bird and its passengers. I thought these children should also get the opportunities I got.

The terror-war imposed on India in the name of Islam is taking these opportunities away, by bleeding India and especially, marginalizing the majority children.

But our know-how and abilities were limited. I had decided about 12 years ago that I would step forward and figure out how to "solve" this problem of Islamic terrorism. As I had noted in my interview, we have a good idea of how the enemy operates and how to neutralize it.

This book is a result of extensive publishing and I might add, out of the box thinking of the past 12 years.

When you are passionate, you find time -- and energy!
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Post by shiv »

Murugan wrote: Good Piskological Retort After Giving False Credit to Macaulites for Rooting Out Islamist From India.

Instead of giving the credits to the rightful Marathas and other Hindus.

Waah waah!
Wrong.

Read again.

I am not giving credit to "Macaulay-ites". I am talking about Macaulay (hint: code word for the Brits) It was Macaulay's jaat-bhais, his qyoon and his birathers who came to India - said thoo to Islamists and proceeded to rule over all of India. OK The Brits may have been helped because the Marathas had weakened Mughals.

But history does not end with the Marathas.

Macaulay ("The Brits" if you did not understand first time) was kicked out in 1947 and Hindus promptly created an 2 islamic states. One pure Islam - Pakistan. One dilute islam - India. But islamic nevertheless. And there was no Shivaji. So exactly what are you celebrating?

When Macaulay (In other words the Brits) was there Islamists were kept as their able servants and Hindus took the opportunities that were given by the very Macaulay you love so much.

After Macaulay (the Brits) left, Hindus handed the baton to Allah and started cursing Macaulay (the Brits). Naturally. India is an Islamic state. Pakistan blames the Brits (Macaulay) and so do you. What's the difference? There is none. After the Brits left we were left with Islamic dominance in the mindset of India and Pakistan. The Brits were blamed for removing Islamic dominance. Pakistan blames them So do you.

You are cursing Macaulay? Islam is fine and dandy for you I suppose. You got what you wanted. Enjoy.
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Post by SwamyG »

shiv wrote:Hindus are not a peaceful people. Peace has been imposed upon them by eliminating warrior memes.
I reject that notion. Societies have all kinds of traits, and a society like that of Hindu that had made some progress in espousing several school of philosophies can not simply be devoid of peaceful people.
Tribes have been forced or predisposed to violent means, but once more and more people started living in organized forts and cities, not all people took part, all the times to violent means. I am not denying the fact that we warring Kingdoms and there was violence in our past. I am opposing the thought that we were just one kind of peopel just peaceful or just violent.

Some time back you had said the raise of Sikhism as a reaction of Hindus, in the same line of thoughts one could say the raise of Buddhism and Jainism in India were another set of reactions of Hindus. It was not violent means. It was not just restricted to one or two people into those religions, the followers followed their gurus to large extent.

One could look at Adi Sankarcharya too, his reaction to the conditions in his life time was by no means violent. So did other gurus of other samparyadams. Communities adopting vegetarian lifestyle..... all such things happened way before Islam or Western ideas had a firm hold on the land.

India was exposed to different thoughts and ideas, it absorbed and adapted and moved on. One just can not give too much credit to any one particular set - especially to Islam.

If at all one wants to find the reason or who eliminated the warrior memes in Hindus; then we only need to dig deep within our own evolution of values and culture over thousands of years.

What you are doing is looking at the present crop of people and projecting their fears and behavior on to our ancestors. Nothing wrong, just that you have to convince by giving more reasons why that would be the case.

What you are saying is by removing the Macaulay and Dhimmi layers on us, we will get the Hindu that would be able to tackle Islamism. I am saying that is not quite true. You are still going to find doves and people with the attitude "what matters if it is Ram or Ravanan who rules us?"
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Post by shiv »

SwamyG wrote: Some time back you had said the raise of Sikhism as a reaction of Hindus, in the same line of thoughts one could say the raise of Buddhism and Jainism in India were another set of reactions of Hindus. It was not violent means. It was not just restricted to one or two people into those religions, the followers followed their gurus to large extent."
The rise of Buddhism and Jainism may have been a reaction to violent and bloody Hindus

SwamyG wrote:What you are saying is by removing the Macaulay and Dhimmi layers on us, we will get the Hindu that would be able to tackle Islamism.
No This is not what i am saying.

We have no idea what we will get. We will probably get an infighting dove who hits his fellow Hindu but submits to all aggressive foreigners. Your point about what we may get could be correct too.

It is our duty to develop the creature that exists under Macaulay and Dhimmitude into a useful, confident dharmic global being.
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Post by Rye »

Muthuswamy wrote:
I suggest you read the portion in my book titled "Siege of India". It details some interesting perspectives on Sachar Committee and its report. This report and its implementations are among the most important steps on advancing jihadist agenda in India.
But if you had dug a little deeper, you would have found out that Omar Khalidi was born in Hyderabad, India and spend more than a decade in Saudi Arabia before he became a librarian at MIT....and strangely this libararian of islamic architecture was foisted by american "friends on India" into the highest echelons of the Indian govt., and PM Manmohan Singh went so far along to demand first cut of resources for muslims. Omar Khalidi is very clear in his writings that he wants India to be split in to muslim and non muslim areas. "secular" PM Manmohan Singh constituted the Sachar Committee based on the recommendations of Omar Khalidi -- highly strange behaviour.

What was the first action of the Sachar committee? Immediately wanted to know the percentage of muslims in the Army, so that the islamists could destroy the army from the inside out. PM Manmohan Singh was supporting this decision to communalize the Indian army until the Indian Army Chiefs refused to let the PM and Sachar and Co. do any damage.


Therefore, without the willing cooperation of politicos like Manmohan Singh and the "Secular" parties, the islamists cannot get the Indian govt. to implement the islamist agenda. The USA will only empower the islamists --- we can all see the wonderful job they have done to pakistan and their mentality to support islamists for short term political gains in Pakistan. Why do you think their behaviour with India will be any less short-sighted. Name one foreign policy triumph for the US since the "end of the cold war".


Omar Khalidi did not get access to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and the ruling party just by chance --- the americans and saudis were involved given the meteoric rise of Omar Khalidi in Indian government circles (accesswise) --- somewhat similar to the meteoric rise of the PMOs Media Adviser from being a unknown writer for Times of India to being in the National Security Advisory Board within a short span of 4 years.

Americans must be kept as far away as possible from the Indian fight with islamists -- the Americans are on the side of the islamists when it comes to islamists in India.
Last edited by Rye on 30 Nov 2007 21:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by indygill »

Rye wrote
Americans must be kept as far away from the Indian fight with islamists -- the Americans are on the side of the islamists when it comes to islamists in India.
you are totally right. As i said before we as indians have to fight it and come up with our own methods.

If these jihadis promise US that give them free hand in India and they will never damage US and its interests for next 50 years than it is a deal.

US has its own interests prime and there is nothing wrong this world is all about "me first" but sadly india is not like that it thinks it is greatness to fulfill others interest before its and even at its own expense. Sorry i call it "meekness" not "greatness". you got to learn to fight your own wars on yur own ...
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Post by indygill »

Shiv wrote

SwamyG wrote:

Some time back you had said the raise of Sikhism as a reaction of Hindus, in the same line of thoughts one could say the raise of Buddhism and Jainism in India were another set of reactions of Hindus. It was not violent means. It was not just restricted to one or two people into those religions, the followers followed their gurus to large extent."



The rise of Buddhism and Jainism may have been a reaction to violent and bloody Hindus
True to certain extent. But the spread of especially Buddhism was only after Ashoka converted. And used his Power as tool. Similar to how “power baseâ€
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Post by abhischekcc »

Rye wrote:Americans must be kept as far away from the Indian fight with islamists -- the Americans are on the side of the islamists when it comes to islamists in India.
Truer words have never been spoken on this subject.

If you notice the involvement of yanks in any Islamic country - it always ends up promoting the most extreme religious groups. That usually destroys the secular nationalist governments. Look at Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, and the latest Iraq.

The pattern repeats itself too consistently for me to believe that the yanks are 'innocent', and these are just policy failures. I think there is a deeper game - an alliance of hte protestants and Islamic fundos.
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Post by SwamyG »

It is our duty to develop the creature that exists under Macaulay and Dhimmitude into a useful, confident dharmic global being.
Many of us agree and assume are here just because we want to do that are within our best abilities.

So what next is the question? Or do we wait for the last straw on the proverbial camel to break its back resulting in a massive uprising. It might result in massive backlash or be put down brutally.

We live (or have relatives living) in a democratic country. Any desired change would be better if it happens within our established constitution/legal framework. So what can we do? Some thoughts:

1)NRIs can create more awareness of the issue abroad - magazines, newspapers, co-workers etc. Each person is an ambassador.
2)Indians should hold their own media more accountable. If not create or support media that spreads the awareness.
3)Talk to their relatives and friends about voting for the best candidate who would tackle this issue along with other issues.

Here is a blog {unfortunately it is in tamil and I see no english translation} that talks about the Islamisation of Tamil Nadu: http://puduvaisaravanan.blogspot.com/
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Post by Rye »

The Indian political class supports the islamist demand to curtail the freedom of speech of writers like Taslima Nasreen. Apparently, there is nothing fascist and communal about the behaviour of Indian muslims in the AIMPLB, but hindus are all fascist and communal, if we go by all the pro-american/pro-western media in India and the rhetoric of all the Rajdeep Sardesais and Burqha Dutts.

All 40 books that were sold in India will now be withdrawn and the "offending" pages deleted. Truly the hindu civilizational strength is falling like a ton of bricks on the Indian islamists. :roll:

Note that the "offending" pages detail the atrocities of Bangladeshi muslims on Bangladeshi Hindus. The news articles never quite tell us what exactly the islamist thugs in the AIMPLB found offensive.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=523255
Withdraw Taslima's books with objectionable comments: AIMPLB

NEW DELHI, NOV 30 (PTI)

A prominent Muslim body today welcomed Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen's decision to delete objectionable portions from one of her controversial books, while another asked the government to ensure withdrawal of previous editions of the book.

In a cautious response, the All India Muslim Personnel Law Board wondered what will be done with the books already in circulation and asked the government to ensure that they are withdrawn from the market.

"The first question is that of those books which are already available in the market. Those should be withdrawn. She has only said that the coming editions will not contain those controversial lines," AIMPLB spokesman S Q R Ilyas said.

"What about the previous editions?" he asked.

Welcoming the Bangladeshi author's decision, Jamait-e- Hind said that as Nasreen had withdrawn the objectionable lines, the issue had ended.

"If she (Nasreen) has expressed sorry for those lines in her book, then keeping in view the Islamic rules and practices, I feel that all believers will end the issue related to it," Mehmood Madhani, an MP and chief of Jamiat-e- Hind, said.

Nasreen has told PTI that she was withdrawing some controversial portions from 'Dwikhandita' (Split into Two), written in 2002 about Bangladesh of the 1980s.
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Post by Mahendra »

Great, the day isnt far when the government will withdraw the Bhagawath Gita becasue it is offensive to muslims as it doesnt fall in line with their belief in one god. Shiv is absolutely right the avearage hindu(myself included) is a selfish coward dhimmi and doest think beyond his family and their well being.
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Post by MuthuswamyM »

abhischekcc wrote:
Truer words have never been spoken on this subject.

If you notice the involvement of yanks in any Islamic country - it always ends up promoting the most extreme religious groups. That usually destroys the secular nationalist governments. Look at Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, and the latest Iraq.

The pattern repeats itself too consistently for me to believe that the yanks are 'innocent', and these are just policy failures. I think there is a deeper game - an alliance of hte protestants and Islamic fundos.
Without addressing the specifics of this post (some of which I do not agree with), I will say this:

American policy response to Islamist threat is in a state of flux. America understands the enemy better now. It realizes that post policy response to 9/11 attacks is not working out too well.

This will create new opportunities and new alliances.

Past doesn't completely determine the future, while I agree that the lessons of the past shouldn't be forgotten.

Those who say India can manage Islamist threat on its own, have failed to notice one thing: if India has the capability, it already would have used it. This threat is only getting worse.

I am signing off on this thread.

Best wishes to you all!
Last edited by MuthuswamyM on 30 Nov 2007 21:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

Pulikeshi wrote:
JwalaMukhi wrote: It is important to know when a zero sum game(Islamism is definitely one) is being pursued by the opponent there is little or no meaning in adapting win-win proposition, because that is what survivability points to. When the game is zero sum it should be essential that the system be capable of producing not just adapters but also achievers, so winner takes all. It is essential that in zero sum game second place is going to be temporal at best. If one is hailing second place, it will be irresponsible because the focus needed to compete and complete to the finish line will be lost. Either the game should be forced to be non-zero sum or winning should be absolute, barring this anything else will be pyrrhic at best.
What is winning? What is the time frame? Why play their zero sum game?
If we play their game, we end up becoming "them"

A better strategy is for us to adapt ourselves to pose them no choice but to play the game of our liking.
Agree, which is what I already stated:
Either the game should be forced to be non-zero sum or winning should be absolute, barring this anything else will be pyrrhic at best.
However, it should be clear that if the game is thurst on you, the game needs to be countered. No fear of becoming "them", because as Shivji has amply provided examples of how we already have become a weak version of them by failing to stand-up when it counted/counts.
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Post by abhischekcc »

MuthuswamyM,

I hope my one post does not cause you to leave the discussion altogether. :)

Those who say India can manage Islamist threat on its own, have failed to notice one thing: if India has the capability, it already would have used it. This threat is only getting worse.
Can you say, what is that special capability that America can bring to India, that India cannot procure on its own PROVIDED their is strong political leadership.
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Post by Murugan »

You are cursing Macaulay? Islam is fine and dandy for you I suppose. You got what you wanted. Enjoy.
After Macaulay (the Brits) left, Hindus handed the baton to Allah and started cursing Macaulay (the Brits). Naturally. India is an Islamic state. Pakistan blames the Brits (Macaulay) and so do you. What's the difference? There is none. After the Brits left we were left with Islamic dominance in the mindset of India and Pakistan. The Brits were blamed for removing Islamic dominance. Pakistan blames them So do you.
Funny Piskological Conclusions... neways.

Your response fits into the Izzlamic response so beautifully stated by Shiv: My fly is open & and my d*** is hanging out, but hey what is that speck on your tie. (Open fly vs. torn shirt).

Added later: By the way, why are the 1000 million Indians unable to face 150 million Pakis are so eager for the support of 250 million americans. Should they not be able to face the threat on their own? Is it not beggary that after 1000 years of suffering at the hands of Izzlamists, we are still begging.
Weren't we able to face the threat even of Americans when they entered bay of bengal?
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Post by ramana »

This dhimmitude how much of it is from the Arabic trait and how mcuh from the Turkic trait? The reason I ask is that the Tartars (modern day Turks from Centra Asia) conquered Russia and ruled for 200 years. European historians of Russia(like Gibbon) have commented on the deep hurt to the Russian psyche from this relatively short period of barbarian rule. And mind you these Tartars were not Islamised yet. Tsarist Russia is a Reconquista response to the Tartar conquest.

Also note Spain doesnt have any of the dhimmi traits despite the long Arabic conquest.

I think we need to idenify the root causes before we prescribe the correct remedy.

If you take a long view of Indian history from invasions by Cyrus to Alexander etc the course of invasions were controlled by events in Central Asia specially Balkh/Bactria, Turkemenistan, Uzbekhistan to the Indus plains. So the real frontier of India is Afghanistan. In that way the loss of Kandhar (1584) by Akbar had a long term impact on modern Indian history.
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Post by Rye »

American policy response to Islamist threat is in a state of flux. America understands the enemy better now. It realizes that post policy response to 9/11 attacks is not working out too well.
The post 9/11 policy was to attack Iraq even though the US fully well knew that it was the Afghanisthan/Pakistan combine that was at fault. Support to Pakistan and the Pakistani Army continues, and Pakistani army's excesses in Kashmir are ignored. Does not say much about the US realizing its post-9/11 follies.
This will create new opportunities and new alliances.
This is dhimmi behaviour, IMHO. Specifically, forming alliances when one has a game plan is a workable, controllable scheme but forming alliances before having such a game plan is a recipe for being lead around by the nose pushing the interests of "partners" in the GOAT....the same partners who foisted Omar Khalidi and the Sachar Committee on India.
Those who say India can manage Islamist threat on its own, have failed to notice one thing: if India has the capability, it already would have used it. This threat is only getting worse.
I am not sure what capability the US is going to bring into India other than denigration of hinduism and praising the "moderate" islamists in India....I think we all know where that will end.
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Post by Murugan »

With respect Muruganji, if Hindus were so great how come India now behaves like an Islamic state?

The question should be:

"If Hindus ARE so great how come the Secular Republic of Majority of Hindu India now behaves like an Islamic State?"

The Answer is similar to answering a qeustion:

"If Americans are so great how come they cant find out osama bin laden with the help of key hole satellites and a$$hole spies?"

or

"If Americans are so great how come they dont understand the designs of Islamic country like pakistan etc?"


Answer/s is/are not that simple
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Post by indygill »

abhischekcc wrote:MuthuswamyM,

I hope my one post does not cause you to leave the discussion altogether. :)

Those who say India can manage Islamist threat on its own, have failed to notice one thing: if India has the capability, it already would have used it. This threat is only getting worse.
Can you say, what is that special capability that America can bring to India, that India cannot procure on its own PROVIDED their is strong political leadership.
Once again we are looking at outsiders for resolving our issues....why is that? Maybe it is the dhimminess within us as a society.

Question here is not Can India Manage??///Why is it getting worse???

Instead there is a problem within us as mentioned on this forum India has become a "semi-islamic" state and that is through the "fetish" Indian institutions and indviduals.

How can even US make a difference when our own institutions are the "bitches" of islamists!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it is the US who should watch out for the Indians!!!! after all it is an Islamists safe haven.......and above all do not forget their mentors the schools like deobands etc are in India and the entire indian machinery is at their disposal
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Post by Murugan »

Hey, but we can find the answer if it is useful to chart out a strategy to counter the threat.

Like Lord Krishna lifted the govardhan parvat with his little finger to save the world from oncoming thunder, all the shepherds supported lord krishna by placing their sticks under the mountain...

... we all br-ites support Dr Shiv when he is lifting govardhan parvat with little effort to protect us from that extremist thunder.

But the issue is as big as Govardhan parvat. The Daitya of islamic terrorism resemble the one found in purana. The Daitya (devil) is very shrewd and is having lots a Siddhis, it also acts like chameleon once, sometimes as dove, can go anywhere, can trouble anyone and still claim itself to be pious. in Dr Irani's words "Yes We are Extremists! We are extremely loving, we are extremly honest and we are extremely just! "Sania Mirza can wear bikini if she offers namaz five times a Day etc. Confuses the average onlooker very easily and make one believe that this is true. Our media will be the first to endorse such views, then comes the psecs and then comes the reds.

Yeh daitya Bahurupiya bhi hai, Shia, sunnis, bohras, khana khojas, wahabis, deobandis, ahmediyas(?), moderates, pious, extremist and Muslims.

Doctor, main aap ke saath hoon. Will come back whenever i get a glimpse of daitya to this board and will try to narrate my sighting of this devil. Hope little/big efforts will hasten the turning into ashes this shrewd cruel daitya! will also try my best of the bests to hasten the destruction whatever way possible. this is a pledge.
Last edited by Murugan on 30 Nov 2007 22:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MuthuswamyM »

abhischekcc wrote:MuthuswamyM,

I hope my one post does not cause you to leave the discussion altogether. :)
Those who say India can manage Islamist threat on its own, have failed to notice one thing: if India has the capability, it already would have used it. This threat is only getting worse.
Can you say, what is that special capability that America can bring to India, that India cannot procure on its own PROVIDED their is strong political leadership.
Please read my interview or better, my book.

India needs more than a strong political leader to take on extensive and mobilized network of jihadists inside (it needs a mobilized majority to take on the jihadist network). Due to political Islamic siege of Indian democracy, it is also unlikely that India will get strong and nationalist leader in Delhi.

America is good in organizing. It brought Muslims together to fight Russians in Afghanistan. Without this organizing, terror war in the name of Islam would have been a non-starter; Muslims wouldn't know how to come together to fight.

America can do a similar thing. It can bring Hindu community together to fight Islamism (then only India can fight). With the right leader and resources of a wstern nation, India can be buildup in no time. Indians are simply terrified of what they are facing in the hands of islamists. Let me put it this way, if Hindu majority community is not mobilized, India is history!

What I am saying is called project management. America is good at that. Indian political leadership and the society (other than software industries) is not capable of project management (at least, not yet).

The concepts such as Dhimmitude, guts etc are all outdated. From a modern view this is all project or problems to be solved.

You may wink and say, what is he talking about :lol:

Try doing that after reading my book :wink:

I have to go, to do my day job :)
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Post by Abhijit »

people seem to have accepted Shiv's contention that India is dar-ul-islam light. So here is a questionnaire for you:

Name the Islamic countries where muslims have been killed by non-muslims because they were muslims (never mind the cause behind it)

Name the Islamic countries where a mosque has been destroyed by a non-muslim mob (in the last many centuries)

Name the Islamic countries where Muslim terrorists are killed by a state army which also includes Muslims along with infidels

Name the Islamic countries where huge idol processions are taken out several times a year and joined by millions of infidels proudly and fearlessly

Name the Islamic countries where business, military and government is run my infidels.
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Post by Rye »

Muthuswamy wrote:
America is good in organizing. It brought Muslims together to fight Russians in Afghanistan. Without this organizing, terror war in the name of Islam would have been a non-starter; Muslims wouldn't know how to come together to fight.

America can do a similar thing. It can bring Hindu community together to fight Islamism (then only India can fight). With the right leader and resources of a wstern nation, India can be buildup in no time. Indians are simply terrified of what they are facing in the hands of islamists. Let me put it this way, if Hindu majority community is not mobilized, India is history!
Outsource the islamist problem in India to the americans. Brilliant!! Maybe Stephen Cohen and Pervez Kiyani can direct the Indian fight against islamists.

The US views hinduism with a jaundiced eye -- you know suttee, bride burning, etc., so you think they are going to "unite the hindus"? Interesting.


Perhaps we can also bring in military rule with our own General Musharraf (I know you volunteered for that post a few years ago when you dropped by here), and the "strong political leadership" can then take america's advice in "solving islamism".

Perhaps you should check with Musharraf and all the stooges in Pakistan as to how their american experience has been.

Wishful thinking portrayed as "deep analysis".

Indians need to stop being gutless ****s and stop being afraid of the islamists and ridicule them and their ideology for all that it is worth -- that is the answer, not an alliance with the USA.
Last edited by Rye on 30 Nov 2007 22:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Murugan »

Abhijit, if you can give the name of such countries, i will show you a rabbit with two horns on its head. :D
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Post by JCage »

Abhijit wrote:people seem to have accepted Shiv's contention that India is dar-ul-islam light. So here is a questionnaire for you:

Name the Islamic countries where muslims have been killed by non-muslims because they were muslims (never mind the cause behind it)
Indonesia, several countries in Africa..Christian vs animist vs Muslim (all 3 against each other) conflicts have occurred several times..still do.
Name the Islamic countries where a mosque has been destroyed by a non-muslim mob (in the last many centuries)
Africa..12 states in Nigeria are under Sharia, Indonesia..the East Timor conflict saw Christian mobs vs state armed militia...

Name the Islamic countries where Muslim terrorists are killed by a state army which also includes Muslims along with infidels
Syria
Name the Islamic countries where huge idol processions are taken out several times a year and joined by millions of infidels proudly and fearlessly
Indonesia, Bali
Name the Islamic countries where business, military and government is run my infidels.
Several Islamic countries have "infidels" in business, military and Govt. Malaysia and Indonesia both.
Last edited by JCage on 30 Nov 2007 22:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ramana »

One thing to realize is that the Secularism as practised in India is a continuation of British adminstration's 'religiouslessness' with added focus on the Hindus. In otherwords the Indian govt will go to anylength to make the Hindu's religiousless while bolstering the other faiths especially the Islam. This is a compact with the IM elite soon after Partition.

However Islam has been hijacked by the salafis/jihadis under the KSA-TSP double whammy under USA benign guidance.
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Post by surinder »

I am glad someone is countering Shiv. Here are my responses in Red/Bold inside:
Abhijit wrote:people seem to have accepted Shiv's contention that India is dar-ul-islam light. So here is a questionnaire for you:

Name the Islamic countries where muslims have been killed by non-muslims because they were muslims (never mind the cause behind it)

Grant that to you. I cannot.

Name the Islamic countries where a mosque has been destroyed by a non-muslim mob (in the last many centuries)

Many Muslim countries tear down mosques. In India it is an anathema.

Name the Islamic countries where Muslim terrorists are killed by a state army which also includes Muslims along with infidels

Pakistan. A'stan. KSA. Eqgypt. Muslim countries kill more muslims than Infedels.

Name the Islamic countries where huge idol processions are taken out several times a year and joined by millions of infidels proudly and fearlessly

Hindus can do it only because they are 80% of the population. Try taking a procession in Kashmir, or Muslim-majority areas of UP, Bihar, WB.

Name the Islamic countries where business, military and government is run my infidels.

Malaysia. Musim countries have eliminated non-muslims. Those that do have, have non-muslims do run businesses (though not the army or the government)
Some of your points are valid. That is why Shiv said India is a soft-Islamic state. Islamists are not satisfied with it; they want a hard Islamic one, though.
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Post by JCage »

This is a compact with the IM elite soon after Partition.
Ramana, I havent come across any evidence that such a compact was made and signed or agreed on apart from the fact that the elite was too fragmented anyway, for such a coherent understanding to be hammered out.

Its actually (imho, of course) a direct result of Gandhis woolly headed equal equal and blind spot when it came to Islam (thanks to his pranami background), and the disdain for religion as inculcated in Nehru via his modernist upbringing and sojourn in the socialist hallows of England at the time. Add to that the complete freedom given to Marxist worthies like Habib, Thapar, et al who subverted the Indian academia, and their acolytes who now run media, and the situation is clear. Why blame IM elite for something that our own leaders did?

I recall in a discussion folks asking me as to what made me so cynical about GOI and its lack of success strategically. When a country doesnt have the foggiest about its culture and refuses to acknowledge it because it is "communal" while fostering the worst irrendists in ones midst, what can one say? I came to the conclusion that Nehru was a DIE after reading Discovery of India- its choc a bloc full of political euphemisms and attempts to manufacture a glorious compact between Islam and Hinduism, by whitewashing the formers crimes.

The result is India will continue to bleed and people of all religions in India will suffer, whilst they attack each other even while the motivators remain free. Nehru may have done some good and thankfully, he was not a Jinnah but his and the Congress's baneful influence on Indian society and culture has been disastrous. If Gandhi was alive longer, even he may have changed his views somewhat given he was gradually coming around to the use of military for a defence, but the true disaster that Patel died and Nehru went on to lead India. Patel was such a canny operator that he asked the RSS to join the Congress- in one fell swoop he would have ensured that both the Congress's rivals would disappear and also ensure that the "untouchables" would get a say in national policy.

Over time, all sides would have balanced themselves and we would have some rationality. And the present Hindu rightwing movement would have not occurred for all we knew.

But in reality, the Congress idealogy just got subverted by socialism lite and the desire to be more Nehru than Nehru by being modern and being disenchanted from the local religion.
Last edited by JCage on 30 Nov 2007 22:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by indygill »

Abhijit

your questions seem to come from assertion that India is a majority muslim nation.

What Shiv is try to point out was that despite being a majority Hindu nation and a secualr nation India in practice acts as a "semi-islamic" state.

Forget about everything else lets only look at

Recent events - what is happening in Islamic Sudan is parrallel to what is happening in India in Tasleema case. She is even forced to modify her book and all the sold copies will be confisticated all over India.

At the same token sas GOI and Karunanidhi "appologized" for Insulting Hindu God "Rama"????? NO

"it can only happen in India"

Are you suggesting such things are possible in non-islamic say US or West?????

Just imagine a Governor of a state in US calling Jesus "DRUNKARD".........
Last edited by indygill on 30 Nov 2007 22:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ramana »

I am going by the events rather than on papers. Also its easy to blame everything on Gandhiji.
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Post by sanjaychoudhry »

ramana wrote:One thing to realize is that the Secularism as practised in India is a continuation of British adminstration's 'religiouslessness' with added focus on the Hindus. In otherwords the Indian govt will go to anylength to make the Hindu's religiousless while bolstering the other faiths especially the Islam. This is a compact with the IM elite soon after Partition.

However Islam has been hijacked by the salafis/jihadis under the KSA-TSP double whammy under USA benign guidance.
Secularism that we have today is actually Nehruvian secularism. The word secualrism was not there in the original constitution, neither the constituent assembly ever approved the secularism built around anti-Hinduism that is being followed today. Remember -- the Somnath temple was renovated by Sardar Patel as home minister totally by government funds. There was no concept of secularism in early day of our independence because after the partition blood bath every one was conscious that India is the country Hindus have got.

It was Nehru's (who was a closet commie) parroting day and night just after independence that India is a secular country, that made it the official policy of the Congress party full of his psychophants.

The commies understood the significance of Nehruvian secularism for their own ideology and latched on to it with a vengeance. They later forced Indira Gandhi to add the word "secular" in the constitution by 42nd amendment in return for the suport of communist MPs in supporting her to form the govt.

In short, secularism as practised today is a subversion of our constitution and is a Nehru's -- and his alone -- gift to the nation. Quite a few Congress leaders were irritated too with Nehru's day and night parroting of secualrism in his every speech.

Indian secularism is a peice of garbage produced by Nehru without anyone's permission. The way he ran the country on his own, one would have thought it was his private property he got in his dowry.

On Children's day on 14th Nov, Doordarshan ran a full length interview of Nehru with an American or British journalist. It was recorded in 1963 just after defeat to China. This is the first time I heard Nehru speak, and I must say I was shocked beyond belief.

He came out to be a man blabbering non-stop about everything under the sun, with the interviewer patiently waiting for a pause to insert his next question. It is clear from his body language that Nehru was suffering from a terribly low self esteem and tryng to show off his Western airs for some prestige.

The quality of his answers was pathetic and juvenile and the solution he was giving for problems surrounding India was laughable. Even a child could have done better.

I was really astounded as to how this man ruled India with an iron hand for 15 years and no one stood up to him. He came out as a total idiot and mentally blind in the interveiw. And the fake British accent he was trying to put on was not funny.
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Post by Raju »

An informal compact between IMs and INC after Partition is very much in realm of possibility.

As for Taslima case, and her apologizing there is another angle to this. A nameless terrorist group sleeper cell is on the loose with cords in various parts of the country. And they are in search of an alibi for striking at targets, this Taslima episode is opportune for them to use that excuse. So basically the Govt is trying to reduce as many alibis for attack. This also is useful for Humint as more IM's will co-operate if Govt is believed as credible and reasonable to them. Agains terrorist groups are extremely clandestine these days, because pakis are doubtful of some strike back capability.

Again there is this tremendous conspiracy underway behind this 'war on terror' facade to destabilize certain regions of the world. They are also on lookout for alibis to launch various campaigns of terror and unrest.

This situation is going to last for a few years, and all govt's are going to appear a bit dhimmi while they deal with this with as little bloodshed as possible. For all its other failings the Congress is past master at the IM game, they are equipped to take care of the soft campaign.
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Post by indygill »

the word "secular" in the constitution by 42nd amendment

Lets be practical now

What was the need in 70's to have a amendment to add "secular" in constitution?????

More over was it done during "emergency" ??/? If yes is than can it be considered as "will of the people"????

What was the justification behind it??? Was there a "religious war" going on at the time????? and was a threat to nation???
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Post by SwamyG »

people seem to have accepted Shiv's contention that India is dar-ul-islam light. So here is a questionnaire for you:
Naah, not all have accepted that thought.
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Post by JCage »

ramana wrote:I am going by the events rather than on papers. Also its easy to blame everything on Gandhiji.
Ramanaji, if a compact was made, whom would it be made with? Too many players, and who would enforce it? IMHO, the simplest explanation is that the Congress identified Muslims vote as a bloc, encouraged handpicked leaders who would then speak for the community and deliver the votes (ergo, the creation of the AIMPLB) and then lived up to its bargains, tactically. That was bad enough- as can be seen in the cowbelt. Similar calculations led to the Islamization of the NE and West Bengal, demographically- Bangla Muslims = votes.

About Gandhi, I dont hold him entirely responsible. What he did was truly incredible and noone can take it away from him, in terms of mobilizing a significant portion of the Indian populace against the Raj. But its also important to see where he erred which we in India have simply been unable to do. His support of the Khilafat et al is explained away as tactical moves to assuage the IMs, his silence whenever it came to criticizing Islam is said to be saintly, and so on and so forth. But Gandhi was respected and admired because he had the cult of persona - of being a saint who genuinely cared about India. He was elevated to semi-divine levels by Indians and even more. But that kind of religious aspect which he brought to politics is what incidentally drove Jinnah and the Muslims away, because at the very basic level they abhorred this entire business of playing second fiddle to a Hindu religious figure which he simply wouldnt understand, since in his worldview Islam was fine as it was and after all, dont pranamis study both the Koran and Gita together? And the other problem is that his entire use of religion was his personal interpretation which he took to extremes, including his fascination with nonviolence which became more than just a tactic against the British.

It is said that the nation is more important than the individual. And that is the crux of the issue imho. Our educational system places these gents on such a pedestal, that a lifetime passes before we even realise our heros had feet of clay too and we shouldnt repeat their mistakes. Same happened to I and many folks I know who regard what we studied earlier as propoganda, and so it was. Seven textbooks on INC and Gandhi.
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Post by indygill »

But in reality, the Congress idealogy just got subverted by socialism lite and the desire to be more Nehru than Nehru by being modern and being disenchanted from the local religion.
Very True!!!

Basically at the time common perception was "Congress means government'

'what Congress said was law and what Pundit Nehru said was Congress'.

Nehru started this assertion that Hindu leaders wanted to create a Hindu rule. He thought that unless he criticised Hindus, his nationalist credentials could not be proved

He made above the political correctness in India.

Quote from Nehru

To talk of Hindu culture would injure India's interests. By education I am an Englishman, by views an internationalist, by culture a Muslim, and I am a Hindu only by accident of birth. The ideology of Hindu Dharma is completely out of tune with the present times and if it took root in India, it would smash the country to pieces. - Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru
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Post by ramana »

The Americans were the first to call him a saint. He also had tactical reasons to suppport the IMs. However the British could offer more than he could. The reinterpetation of Gandhi(eg Guha etc) was done to suit the secular ideology. Thanks for the replies.

Another thing to ponder is what were the Indian kingdoms that the British annexed (made Company or Crown lands) and what were left alone as independent lands? Would be useful to add %land also.That might help the dhimmi debate.

Also does anyone recall who rode on an elephant into Kabul after the Second Afghan War?
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