Tackling Islamic Extremism in India

[ramana]

Talking about dhimmitude here is one for the road!
Wonder if they will induct the politicians for the job!

NCM to help breed vultures for Towers of Silence

Rajeev Ranjan Roy | New Delhi

Given the number of vultures dwindling, almost touching the brink of extinction, the National Commission for Minorities (NCM) is taking up the task of preserving the important birds for Parsis.

The NCM has tasked Dr (Miss) Mehroo Dhunjisha Bengalee with the responsibility of co-ordinating with experts to set up a nursery for breeding vultures around Mumbai. Dr Bengalee, hailing from Mumbai, represents the Parsi community in the NCM.
.......

[pradeepe]

Wonder if they will induct the politicians for the job!

breed vultures

Ah, that will mean in-breeding. Dhimmi politicans breeding among themselves...

[shiv]

people seem to have accepted Shiv's contention that India is dar-ul-islam light. So here is a questionnaire for you:

Name the Islamic countries where muslims have been killed by non-muslims because they were muslims (never mind the cause behind it)

Name the Islamic countries where a mosque has been destroyed by a non-muslim mob (in the last many centuries)

Name the Islamic countries where Muslim terrorists are killed by a state army which also includes Muslims along with infidels

Name the Islamic countries where huge idol processions are taken out several times a year and joined by millions of infidels proudly and fearlessly

Name the Islamic countries where business, military and government is run my infidels.

Great questions Abhijit. You have come as close to the Achilles heel of my contention as possible I guess.

There have been some valid responses to your questions and I will not desperately try and rebut. Eerily, your questions, taken with my questions are akin to the skin blisters that appear with the words "Please help me" in the movie "The Exorcist" in which a little girl is possessed by the Devil (as if there is only one Devil and only one person to be possessed by it - just look at India )

There is something inside that is calling for help. But that something should not be taken as evidence of victory or completion. That something is merely a sign of life - a precious sign that life support may help. We need to go a long way before Islamist ch**tiyapanti like "if I don't like your words I will screw you, but you have to accept my words as truth" is removed.

[shiv]

Talking about dhimmitude here is one for the road!
Wonder if they will induct the politicians for the job!

NCM to help breed vultures for Towers of Silence

Rajeev Ranjan Roy | New Delhi

Given the number of vultures dwindling, almost touching the brink of extinction, the National Commission for Minorities (NCM) is taking up the task of preserving the important birds for Parsis.

The NCM has tasked Dr (Miss) Mehroo Dhunjisha Bengalee with the responsibility of co-ordinating with experts to set up a nursery for breeding vultures around Mumbai. Dr Bengalee, hailing from Mumbai, represents the Parsi community in the NCM.
.......

No Let us not misconstrue this.

First Towers of Silence are for Parsis who were kicked out by Islam and sought refuge in Mother India.

Secondly there has been a massive decrease in one or two species of Indian vulture due to environmental causes. Part of the cause may be because of the widespread use of the human pain-killer Diclofenac in cattle. Vultures that feed on the carrion of cattle fed with Diclofenac die of kidney failure.

This is not dhimmitude, but just another act by a receding Hindu land to help a religion whose extinction was started by islam.

[Abhijit]

There is something inside that is calling for help. But that something should not be taken as evidence of victory or completion. That something is merely a sign of life - a precious sign that life support may help. We need to go a long way before Islamist ch**tiyapanti like "if I don't like your words I will screw you, but you have to accept my words as truth" is removed.

I believe it is more than just a sign of life doctor. It is just that the tolerance level for Islamic bull$hit in India is much higher because of the 1000 yr dhimmitude + the nature of Hinduism + internal faultlines. But there is a redline that the islamists better not cross - as evidenced by Godhra. We are not out to do a reconquista (unlike the spaniards because after all we are Hindus and not the followers of the religion of love) but we also carry the genes of Arjun, Krishna and Ram, Shivaji and Rana Pratap, Guru Gobind Singh and Ranjit Singh and thousand such others. This is the gene pool that produced Bhagat Singh and Rajguru, Savarkar and Chaphekar, Cpt Manoj Pandey and Maj. Acharya and thousands such others.

I agree with you that this phenomenon is not a victory over Islamists - but woe betide anyone who believes that we are ready to roll over and take the kalima.

The foregoing may sound inspirational or corny or both. But when I visit India during Ganapati or Navaratri or Diwali, I am overcome with joy and relief that my heritage is not just alive but kicking and ready to kick butt if need be.

[Rahul Mehta]

.

The islamist menace in India is a passe anyway, to be dwarfed by Christianist (Vatican) MNC duo. Even now, AFA India goes, Islamist violence is mainly due to US/UK's support in letting Saud/Pak and BD run amok in India.

---

To deal with violence unleashed by islamists and later by Vatican-MNCs, we need to start building US class military. But for that pre-requisite is a US style legal system which lets commons become productive. Sadly, most "educated" people are hostile to changes needed to make legal system at par with US, and so productivity of us commons in India is dirt low compared commons of US/West. So as the trend goes, it looks clear that India would go Iraq way, and would become another MNC-Vatican colony.

.

[ShauryaT]

But in reality, the Congress idealogy just got subverted by socialism lite and the desire to be more Nehru than Nehru by being modern and being disenchanted from the local religion.

It goes much deeper JC. The author of the Indian Constitution is Morley Minto, who shepherded the 1935 act of India. An act designed to establish colonial rule and exploit the communal divisions of India. Also, if one reads the debates of tne constituent assembly, the constitution of India was not just a document for the governance of India, but a social reformation framework, first, for the hindus. Its chief missions was to establish an ameliorative character for the Indian constitution. These characters and the blatant discrimination has been codified as articles 29 and 30 of the constitution. And finally yes, Nehru's infatuation with his version of "modernism" did the rest.

All in all, I conclude that India is an anti-hindu country. Shiv calls it an islamic country - same thing.

[Rahul Mehta]

.

As far as Islamist violence in India goes, there is ONLY one solution -- liberate Saud.

Even if Pak splits into 4 parts, each small of the 4 small parts will get money from Saud to send islamist terrorist into India. Now US has given promise to Saud that if anyone attacks Saud, US will consider it as attack on US and defend Saud. So we need to force Us to cancel that promise in writing before we start liberating Saud. How to force US from canceling this promise in writing first? Well, thats doable but OST and OSC.

Once US steps out, we can liberate Saud and put an end to islamist violence.

.

[Pulikeshi]

Pulikeshi,
You intend your question as a rhetorical question. Your implied answer is Hinduism/India. But I am sorry to burst your bubble, and also that of many others on this forum, many other faiths and many other societies and many other countries survived. Not just survived, but truimphed. Spain was a 200% Muslim country for 500 years. Spanish recovered that land and denuded it of Islam. Much better than us. Budhists of SE Asea, Tibet withstood islam and its allure. Turks were at the gates of Vienna, they lost there. Europe is much nearer to Arabia than India is, most of it never converted. Islam lost its war with China, never to make a foothold there. The Jews survived Islam and have truimphed. They have taken away the 2nd holiest site of Islam (Jerusalem). If we bore so much brunt of Islam, can you imagine being Jewish in Arabia at the time of the Prophet (PBUH)? Their settlements in Middle east places like Iran, Iraq, Africa, Egypt & Palestine survive & flourish still. Compare that to Hindus/India---we lost Lahore, the pre-historic city of Hindus established by Lord Rama's son Luv (and also Kasur, which was established by Kush). Very recently that is, in our living memory.

First, you are completely forgetting that in places like Andalusia, there was grand collaboration between Islam and Judaism. Second, you really need to understand what happened to Spain to achieve this "triumph" that you speak of, further you then need to look at what Spain went on to commit on the new world. It is not my intent to suggest that Hinduism or India exists currently in a state of perfection and triumph, and as such does not need to do anything more.

We did not loose Lahore, Kasur or Khandar - for one "we" never existed!
Not in the metaphysical sense, but in the political sense
If that is how "we" failed, then I agree with what you are saying.

As far as a tactical response to Islamist - raise the cost for the hawks and democratize the doves.

[shiv]

The foregoing may sound inspirational or corny or both. But when I visit India during Ganapati or Navaratri or Diwali, I am overcome with joy and relief that my heritage is not just alive but kicking and ready to kick butt if need be.

I will come to the above point later. It is not untrue but may be reflective of a different game playing out.

But I want to take a re-look at your questions:

Name the Islamic countries where muslims have been killed by non-muslims because they were muslims (never mind the cause behind it)

As someone pointed out this has occured in several non-Hindu nations. It has occurred in India. As far as I can tell, if it has ever occurred in a Muslim majority country, it has never recurred because non Muslims are wiped out from Muslim majority countries unless they submit.

The occurence of areas in which non Muslims have to fight Muslims in a non Muslim majority nation is an indicator of two things

a) Muslims have been allowed to survive and provoke the others to the extent that a fight ocurs
b) The nations has a weak overnment where an Islamic style tit for tat tribal war can occur between citizens.

Neither characteristic is flattering to India. It is more worrying than reassuring to me.


Name the Islamic countries where a mosque has been destroyed by a non-muslim mob (in the last many centuries)
This I think has occured in invasions by non Muslims. Does the rarity of this occurrence suggest something? If you count the number of occasions in the last 20 years that non Muslims in India have been killed in the name of islam, I would have thought that a lot more mosques should have been razed.

Name the Islamic countries where Muslim terrorists are killed by a state army which also includes Muslims along with infidels
This question becomes direct opposite pole to your first question. If state forces kill Muslim terrorists as part of law and order, it becomes a grievance that leads to further aggression. The security forces and the state are accused of Islamicide and a law and order issue is converted thus into a religious war. When the state backs off in order to not make it a religious war, killing of non Muslims continue until the non Muslim civilians take law into their own hands. This starts a vicious circle that utilizes kindkless and accommodation of Muslims into a religious war.

It is detailed and repeated analyes of this sequence of events that has finally led to open discussions on here and includes this thread.


Name the Islamic countries where huge idol processions are taken out several times a year and joined by millions of infidels proudly and fearlessly
The fact that this does not occur in any wholly Islamic country tells you more about Islam than anything else.

India is a slightly Islamic country where this occurs. The people are fearless, but pilgrimages nevertheless get attacked regularly. It is because the people do not complain too much and the government expects uncomplaining kindness towards islamic extermists that we get the situation we are in. I for one do not see this as satisfactory.


Name the Islamic countries where business, military and government is run my infidels.

India?

[vsudhir]

Yaar panga yeh hai ki we kuffr have a lot to lose - collectively in terms of civilizational norms and values and individually - in terms of lives and livelihood. So doing a tit for tat - burn the barn, goto the mattresses - kinda war we will fight but not willingly.

The izlamics, OTOH breed large families (and are hence willing to live with a lower per capita level), cage their women to enable that and more to happen, and in gen have 'littler' to lose than the avg kafir does.

*The head of the izlamic assocation of sweden recently told swedish national tv that "our way of thinking will over yours".

*Dhimmitude in Europe needs to be seen to be believed - Van Gogh beaheading has effectively silenced 'offical' channels of artistic and political expression critical of izlam.

*The riots in the french ghettos are another story of a demographically ascendent izlamism pushing to see how far they can go against the kuffrs.

*The overuse of lawsuits to silence well-researched critics needs to be seen to believed in the US.

*In the UK< sky tv exposes using tehelka methods local mosque-ito clerics railing holy war against the jews and infidels.... and the station gets booked by the local police for disturbing the peace!! (Dhimmitude or what?).

*Recently in Canada, a nascent movement to have sharia compliant family courts to settle cases within the muzlim community got narrowly defeated. But trust it to return and keep returning (17 times or what?) until the first victory opens the floodgates.

The story goes on. The kuffr's enemy is civilzational niceties. Hard to hit back against the muzlim when he knows your laws as well as you do and abuses the same. No?

Of course the situation cannot continue forever. Demographic balances tilt and open war breaks out. Thats when civil niceties go outta the door. Case in the point - Bosnia. Where the Serbs are reduced to a 38% minority (they were more than the muzlims till the 80s, the rest being Croats and others).

I'm rooting for open conflict (hopefully short of open war). When the kafir mind can define and ID the enemy (izlam-ism?) and apply the rational mind to defeating it by any and all means tolerable. Am hoping the most if not all kaffirs will close ranks against the momeen. Mass-apostasy will be the preferred method of surrender, hopefully. Mass-blashphemy will air on the media like kirket and bollywood do today.... The first JDAM may start the process. The second will lead it on and may invite a WMD response. Getting the muzlims to nuke each other (Iran-KSA? TSP-Afghan?) etc may not be as difficult as we think... who knows... possibilities abound.

[shiv]

Islamic fundamentalists define the borders of Islam. They may form only 30 or 40 or 50% of an Islamic population, but they will say when "their way" is under threat.

It is educative for us to listen carefully to Islamic fundamentalists. We tend to laugh them away or ignore them because they are demanding the world which we know that they damn well will never ever get. (I will not bother repeating all the reasons why i say this)

But Islamic fundamentalists throw a wide net around themselves and complain of persecution and discrimination even at the most minor kafir prctices - which are all unIslamic.

Therefore when we, out of politeness, reduce the intensity and scope of kafir practices, we are pandering to islamists.

It is important not to give them any leeway. The ideal way is to allow them nothing. In fact it is right to ask for the elimination of Islam and be the ultimate misoIslamist which is something several notches higher than a mere Islamophobe. Demand everything. Claim all space.

What will Islamists do?

They will scream and complain and fight.

What are they doing now?

They are screaming and complaining and fighting.

if the reaction is the same to accommodation and to aggression, it is far better to give aggression because you stand to gain more.

Pure self interest demands that you ask for more. Islamists are the epitome of self interest. Hindus are the epitome of self effacing - to a point.

Demand a rollback or removal of islam. It will never happen (if it does what do YOU lose?), but we can reach accommodation at a more advantageous midway point. If you believe that It takes a great deal of courage to ask for a roll back of Islam then think of the courage and facetiousness embodied within Islam asking you to discard your faith, and in demanding that all Muslims oppose all other faiths. Your faith has been easy on you and has not asked you to make the sacrifices that Islam demands. As a result, you are a weakling, a cissy.

You will want to remember the rare occasional courageous people your peaceful and self-effacing faith threw up by chance and try and claim that there is something there. We see a lot of that on this forum. "He (eg. Shivaji) was courageous so I need not worry. I need not be courageoaus"

Sorry. No way.

You have to be personally courageous. if you cannot be that way, accept that Islam is a religion that demands courage of one's convictions. Your faith does not do that. Why compare?

And expect cognitive dissonance and anger and denial in your mind when this truth sinks in. No wonder your nation submits to Islam and you won't admit t.

[Don Paul Chel]

Islamic fundamentalists define the borders of Islam. They may form only 30 or 40 or 50% of an Islamic population, but they will say when "their way" is under threat.

It is educative for us to listen carefully to Islamic fundamentalists. We tend to laugh them away or ignore them because they are demanding the world which we know that they damn well will never ever get. (I will not bother repeating all the reasons why i say this)

But Islamic fundamentalists throw a wide net around themselves and complain of persecution and discrimination even at the most minor kafir prctices - which are all unIslamic.

Therefore when we, out of politeness, reduce the intensity and scope of kafir practices, we are pandering to islamists.

It is important not to give them any leeway. The ideal way is to allow them nothing. In fact it is right to ask for the elimination of Islam and be the ultimate misoIslamist which is something several notches higher than a mere Islamophobe. Demand everything. Claim all space.

What will Islamists do?

They will scream and complain and fight.

What are they doing now?

They are screaming and complaining and fighting.

if the reaction is the same to accommodation and to aggression, it is far better to give aggression because you stand to gain more.

You would get twice or more complaining and fighting from the rest of the 70 or 60 or 50% of the Islamic "non-fundamentalist" population. You might stand to gain something as a "kafir" but you definitely will lose more.

[Murugan]

jaago...

http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=4626

(didn't know where to post, this thread still looks relevant, why islamic terrorist are having upper hand)

[Karan Dixit]

jaago...

http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=4626

(didn't know where to post, this thread still looks relevant, why islamic terrorist are having upper hand)

Bana Singh is from J&K (a muslim majority state). In J&K , Hindus/Sikhs are routinely discriminated against. Bana Singh served his country; that means little to the majority of muslims in J&K or else where in India.

If Bana Singh were from Punjab or Haryana or even UP, he would have received a lot more respect, which he rightfully deserves.

I think we should start some kind of funds for our national heroes like Bana Singh. Although Bana Singh is very outspoken about this issue, many heroes in similar circumstances keep quiet.

[Don Paul Chel]

[quote="Murugan"]jaago...
http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=4626
quote]

I think BRF should have an online donation box for our war heroes like Bana Singh. Im sure we have plenty of well-to-do Indians/NRIs on this forum. I'll be the first contribute.

I request our Adminullahs to take note please.

[asprinzl]

Doc,
In my opinion, the only Hindus who are fighting with equal ferocity as Islamist at the moment are the Tamils of Northern Sri Lanka.

However, I am not sure if they are fighting for Hinduism- they have in their ranks Tamil Christians and was told even the rare Muslim Tamils though the Muslim Tamils by and large consider themselves as another ethnicity and don't support the LTTE- and sadly they are fighting a religion that is more of less a sister religion of Hinduism.

I know this is a sticky point. Their ideology may not fit in the current athmosphere of thinking but their courage under fire and sacrifice surely is admirable. May be this stems from the fact that they have very little else to look forward to?

Perhaps, the current dhimmi mentality in Islamic Republic of India comes from the fact that they believe they will lose big if they rock the boat? Thus the constant desire to accomdate while the ground space is slowly inching in the opposite direction? Willing to constantly lose ground little by little by being dhimmis rather than the willingness to gamble it all in a mano-o-mano match?
Avram

[Sumeet]

I agree with the conclusion of this article. IMHO, this is the first step to counter islamist terrorism against india and our interests. Its the first step in moving away from Nehruvian secularism. Hopefully one day we can make congress change forever.

In Sync with the conclusion reached by Sanghvi, CNN IBN editorial team says:



CNN-IBN Editorial

The Taslima Nasreen episode has perhaps forced us to realise the limits of Indian secularism. Sure, artists and intellectuals should not cause religious hurt, but the question is can great religions like Islam ever be damaged by a single writer? Once again, it is clear that for Indian governments in the quest for votes, the commitment to secularism and freedom comes second. Instead, satisfying militant religious groups, Hindu and Muslim, seems to be the government’s first priority.

Its worth it to recall that following the ugly incident in aug with taslima in Hyderabad Barkha dutt of NDTV wrote something along similar lines focusing on double standards of indian political class on secularism.

Counterpoint: The Taslima Controversy

I knew, last week, that I would be expected to write about the Taslima Nasreen controversy. I chose not to for a variety of reasons, the most important of which was exhaustion.

How many times can one make the same points again and again? How many times will readers be expected to read more or less identical liberal-outrage pieces on Taslima, all of which make roughly the same points? Frankly, there's not much left to say on this subject that I haven't said already or that others haven't written on these pages.

But because the Taslima controversy refuses to go away, I'm going to have to devote this week's Counterpoint to the subject. You will forgive me if I don't rehash the usual free-speech-is-a-basic-right arguments all over again. For the record, yes, I believe in freedom of expression, in the fight against religious fundamentalism and all the other worthy values that we are expected to subscribe to, so you can take those as a given.

My concern this Sunday is less with the actual controversy than with the manner in which all of us and especially the intellectual establishment have reacted to Taslima's enforced flight from Calcutta and to what it says about the current state of the liberal consensus.

I have very little patience with people who act as though they always regarded free speech as an absolute value. I am something of an uncompromising fundamentalist on the subject of freedom of expression but let's not forget that no matter what they say now, Indian liberals have traditionally been willing to trample on free speech in the name of religious sensitivity.

Most of you will remember the fatwa against Salman Rushdie over The Satanic Verses. What you may have forgotten is that even though Ayotollah Khomeini signed the death warrant, he was provoked not by the book itself — which he had never read — but by the actions of educated Indians. { This is the first time i am hearing this. Is it true ? }

It happened like this. Penguin was supposed to publish the Indian edition of The Satanic Verses. The manuscript went to Khushwant Singh, then Penguin's consulting editor, who read it and pointed out that Muslims would find the book incredibly offensive. Khushwant's views were communicated to the Penguin management who decided not to publish The Satanic Verses in India for the fear of provoking riots.

Shrabani Basu, then the London correspondent for Sunday magazine, went to interview Rushdie and asked him about Penguin India's reservations. In a now-famous remark notable for its mixture of hubris and ignorance, Rushdie responded, "It is a funny view of the world to think that a book can cause riots."

When Shrabani's interview appeared in Sunday, along with a piece outlining the contents of The Satanic Verses, Syed Shahabuddin demanded a ban on the book. The matter was referred to the then home minister Buta Singh. He promptly decided to forbid the sale of The Satanic Verses.

Even though the book had been banned, various Muslim organisations in India and Pakistan then took it upon themselves to demonstrate outside British Council offices and to burn cars — apparently to register their outrage that such a book had ever been written. Ayotollah Khomeini saw one such demonstration on TV and issued his fatwa.

The most notable aspect of the genesis of the fatwa is that nobody who called for the ban had read the book, except for Khushwant Singh — and he was ambivalent. Shahabuddin went by the Sunday piece. There is no evidence that Buta Singh knows how to read. And by the time the demonstrations began, the book was unavailable for the protestors to read, anyway.

How should liberals react to a demand for a ban from people who haven't even read the book? Judging by the current public response to Taslima, we should have all spoken up for free speech then. In fact, we did no such thing.

Khushwant Singh's view became the prevailing consensus and the widely-accepted liberal argument was that as regrettable as it is to ban a book, it is far better to impose such a ban than to risk riots and public disorder. No book is worth the loss of lives.

It intrigues me that many of the same people who cheerfully acquiesced in The Satanic Verses ban are now singing a different tune. Could it be that the liberal consensus has shifted? Have we all changed our minds on where to draw the line restricting freedom of expression? Or do we just have double standards?

Another interesting aspect of the Taslima controversy is the extent to which it has become an exercise in Left-bashing. State governments ban books all the time. A Congress government prevented the distribution of a scholarly book on Shivaji in Maharashtra, for instance. The BJP's record is especially shameful. Sangh Parivar thugs prevented Deepa Mehta's Water from being shot in Banaras while the government did nothing to protect the unit. And, of course, the Husain controversy is still fresh in our minds.

So, why has the Left received so much flak? Writing in the HT on Friday, Sitaram Yechury suggested that we were being unfair to the CPM by looking at the Taslima controversy in isolation. Of course, he's right. But the Left has painted itself into a corner. Every time there's an attack on Husain or on a cinema hall showing Fire, assorted fellow travellers and crypto-Communist 'secular' organisations march in the streets in favour of free speech.

The truth, of course, is that only in India do we make a bizarre association between Communism, a totalitarian ideology that has little respect for human rights and whose leading lights have murdered millions of people, and liberal freedoms. But because the Left has rushed in to occupy this space, it is judged on different standards from other political parties. And so, the liberal outrage is greater when Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee behaves in a manner that we might expect from, say, Murli Manohar Joshi.

Plus, I have a growing sense that the liberal consensus has turned against the Left. There are many reasons for this shift, including the rising prosperity of the liberal elite. But, the most obvious ones include the spoilt-child behaviour of the CPM as a constituent of the UPA, the suspicion that the opposition to the nuclear deal was motivated by patriotism on behalf of China rather than India, and anger over the coup staged by CPM cadres in Nandigram.

Much of the outrage over Taslima has nothing to do with her. It's just become another stick to beat the CPM with. And I also think that Sitaram is right when he says that it's silly to compare Bengal with Gujarat. As much as I disapprove of how the Left has behaved, I do not see how comparisons to mass murder can be sustained.

And finally, the Taslima controversy shows us how much Indian liberals have matured in our understanding of secularism. The Satanic Verses controversy demonstrated our double standards in the 1980s — Hindus should learn to take it on the chin but we must be very careful not to offend Muslims.

My sense is that we are now much more even handed in our approach to religious fundamentalism.

I sensed this first in the manner in which we regarded the Muslim political
leadership's attempts to turn the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad into a domestic political issue in India. There's no doubt that pious Muslims would have found the Danish cartoons deeply offensive (if they had seen them; most people know they exist but have never actually seen the cartoons themselves), but liberals felt that a) there's no reason why non-believers should consider their freedoms circumscribed by the standards of pious believers, and b) that even if some Scandinavian had insulted the Prophet, this had very little to do with us in India.

It's always dangerous to draw broad general conclusions from a single event so I will be careful in claiming that I detect a tectonic shift in the liberal consensus. But even so, it does seem to me that we now regard free speech as more important than we ever have, that the Left has lost its status as the favourite party of the well-meaning but moderately-informed artist and intellectual, and that we are finally treating Muslim communalists with the firmness that we previously applied only to Hindu fundamentalists.
Regardless of how things turn out with Taslima, these are still positive steps and genuine gains for Indian liberalism.

[Pulikeshi]

Khushwant Singh's view became the prevailing consensus and the widely-accepted liberal argument was that as regrettable as it is to ban a book, it is far better to impose such a ban than to risk riots and public disorder. No book is worth the loss of lives.

This is how them doves get turned to dove-hawks!

Such books (its an average book having read it) are what save lives in the long run.
The freedom to comment and criticize and impose satire on dogma is fundamental to having a vibrant, aware, free society.

Such appeasing has cost more lives in the long run.

The (doves) who seek purity for themselves, with unwanted encouragement of book banning, mutate into Islamists (dove-hawks).
The very same dove-hawks who now want to impose the purity on others.
This simple wisdom is lost on our liberals in India. They keep rewarding bad behavior in the hope that something good will come out of it.

[shiv]

You would get twice or more complaining and fighting from the rest of the 70 or 60 or 50% of the Islamic "non-fundamentalist" population. You might stand to gain something as a "kafir" but you definitely will lose more.

Excellent! This is a true Hindu. Think about it and give up. Thanks - for reminding me of 5000 year old wisdom.

The fear of the consequences of action makes this person advise against action. Arjuna reborn!

In fact you are wrong.

Doves will largely remain dove. Only that percentage of dove who are pretending will turn hawk. Right now there is a numerical kafir advantage. Once that is eroded your advice of dharmic inaction will prove itself to be correct.

But it's OK. What will happen will happen. What is pre ordained will be. So no matter what I say or do or advocate there will be no change is what is actually going to happen. 5000 years of believing that inaction is best despite some kiddies fairy tales like the Gita that advise the opposite is not going to go away i a hurry just because I get my undies in a knot.

[Prem]

But in reality, the Congress idealogy just got subverted by socialism lite and the desire to be more Nehru than Nehru by being modern and being disenchanted from the local religion.

It goes much deeper JC. The author of the Indian Constitution is Morley Minto, who shepherded the 1935 act of India. An act designed to establish colonial rule and exploit the communal divisions of India. Also, if one reads the debates of tne constituent assembly, the constitution of India was not just a document for the governance of India, but a social reformation framework, first, for the hindus. Its chief missions was to establish an ameliorative character for the Indian constitution. These characters and the blatant discrimination has been codified as articles 29 and 30 of the constitution. And finally yes, Nehru's infatuation with his version of "modernism" did the rest.

All in all, I conclude that India is an anti-hindu country. Shiv calls it an islamic country - same thing.

GOI who acts in the name of Indian people is not representative at all.
India is not islamic country or anti Hindu Country but Govrnment of India under the influence of DIEs is sure anti every local social or spiritual tradition. Under the influence of psuedo Secularists in permanent mating sesstion with Isalmists etc , GOI actively encourage the undermining of Dharma amd its branches with roots in India. All the Indian born religions who hold soil of India sacred are under constant attack and put under stress with impunity. This has been the norm since Independence with few minute exceptions.

[alokgupt]

"Sonia attacks BJP on failure to tackle terror"

url

Were there general elections? I thought Congress was still ruling and dragging its feet on terrorism...silly me.

[ShauryaT]

But it's OK. What will happen will happen. What is pre ordained will be. So no matter what I say or do or advocate there will be no change is what is actually going to happen. 5000 years of believing that inaction is best despite some kiddies fairy tales like the Gita that advise the opposite is not going to go away i a hurry just because I get my undies in a knot.

Take heart Shiv, it is all going to change. India was living the curse of the Kali Yuga, said to be ending soon in 2012. After that, it is the ascent of the Dharmic ways, can you not smell the coffee already?

[ramana]

This Buta Singh is curse on India. Now he is at the root of the ban of Aja Nachle in Punjab! Salman Rushdie onwards.

[Prem]

But it's OK. What will happen will happen. What is pre ordained will be. So no matter what I say or do or advocate there will be no change is what is actually going to happen. 5000 years of believing that inaction is best despite some kiddies fairy tales like the Gita that advise the opposite is not going to go away i a hurry just because I get my undies in a knot.

Take heart Shiv, it is all going to change. India was living the curse of the Kali Yuga, said to be ending soon in 2012. After that, if is the ascent of the Dharmic ways, can you not smell the coffee already?

Lest hope their is Indian Jinnah in every Indian. Qaid's vision need help , grateful Indians should do all they can by applying the wisdom of Robert Frost.

[Prem]

Benazir-Nawaz to meet on Dec 3

( to Discuss Mush' public deflowering Ceremony)

LAHORE, Dec 01: The PPP Chairperson Benazir Bhutto and the PML-N leader Nawaz Sharif are set to meet next week to decide whether or not to take part in the upcoming general elections.

PML-N leader Raja Zafr-ul-Haq told a foreign news agency that both the leaders are scheduled to meet on Monday in Islamabad ... to discuss the prevailing political situation in the country.

They would also discuss whether or not to take part in the upcoming general elections.

Zafr-ul-Haq said his party wants a joint opposition strategy about the elections.

Meanwhile, the PPP spokesman Mr. Farhatullah Babar has also confirmed the reports about the next week meeting.
http://www.thepakistaninewspaper.com/ne ... p?id=10306

[Neshant]

The muslim personal law board would like to turn Indian justice system into a saudi arabian type system of chaos :

Saudi rape ruling puts govt on defensive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071202/ap_ ... di_justice

[ramana]

Its better for them to be united for this round to let the people know they are above petty issues. And also not give a handle for mushy to beat them with.

[shiv]

Doc,
In my opinion, the only Hindus who are fighting with equal ferocity as Islamist at the moment are the Tamils of Northern Sri Lanka.

Avram I see two different levels here.

What Abhijit said earlier also holds true. I quote:

I agree with you that this phenomenon is not a victory over Islamists - but woe betide anyone who believes that we are ready to roll over and take the kalima.

The foregoing may sound inspirational or corny or both. But when I visit India during Ganapati or Navaratri or Diwali, I am overcome with joy and relief that my heritage is not just alive but kicking and ready to kick butt if need be.

On the ground Hindus have laid out the lines that they will not see crossed, and Muslims by and large have their space marked out. But, Abhijits words may not apply at all in the border districts around Bdesh and in parts of Kerala and UP.

At a national and international level India allows islamists to gain space and points.

Indian behavior at the national and international level is a mixture of what the constitution demands, what foreign policy demands, and to an extent what the political parties in power want India and their party actions to be seen as at the national and international level

I believe that the parties in power are showing some amazing ignorance. They may well be seeing India's problems as follows:

"India has many problems. Poverty. Inequality. Drought. Floods. Farmer Suicides. TB. Malaria. Malnutrition. etc. Islamic extremism is just one of them"

But mindless killing of uninvolved people is not a form of protest that is used by any of India's other problems. I mean you don't see a health worker going and blowing up people in a bus stand to draw attention to TB in India. Yes TB kills, but that is not an excuse for killing people with bombs.

Islamic extremists are doing that. And if the government does not start making the right statements about this there will inevitably be more bomb blasts and attacks and less and less sympathy for anyone who speaks for Muslims. Eventually the government will turn and will be forced to bleat out the right noises.

The Muslim community of India - even if 99% of them are innocent have to understand that if Muslim bombers cite Muslim grievances and jihad as excuses for murdering innocent people the Muslim community will have to answer sooner or later.

Right now Muslims are only just beginning to enter into the angry disbelief of cognitive dissonance as they realise exactly how actions in the name of Islam are viewed. Yes they will have a period of anger and resentment, but when that is past they will have to start putting gag orders on extremist mullahs and the creation of murderous Muslims in the community.

Widespread pressure on the Muslim community to move towards change can only come from widespread acknowledgement among non Muslims that Islam is a problem.

The government at least should see Pakistan as an example of how a nation that has sold itself as Islamic to the core is still being screwed to squeeze out "More islam" in the form of the Taliban.

This sort of nonsense should be nipped in the bud. Oh yes Hindus will "kick ass" if need be, but if the Muslim community can learn such a kicking may not be necessary.

[vsudhir]

prem

grateful Indians should do all they can by applying the wisdom of Robert Frost.

Interesting.... Pls elaborate...

Doc Shiv

At a national and international level India allows islamists to gain space and points.

Indian behavior at the national and international level is a mixture of what the constitution demands, what foreign policy demands, and to an extent what the political parties in power want India and their party actions to be seen as at the national and international level

I believe that the parties in power are showing some amazing ignorance.

Let me quote from memory one of IG's more underhanded foreign policy actions. She had India apply for OIC membership early in the group's formation as a (get this) 'semi-izlamic state'. Her arguments mirror many you made - that we allow (limited) sharia, that muzlim rights (including jizya, perhaps) are protected etc. TSP went nuts and started its "IM==rented muzlim" cam-pain in KSA.

Thus you have a strong PM, the only man in her cabinet no less, declaring openly India==semi izlamic to get into the OIC. What would you expect from lesser parties?

[SwamyG]

I have question. When talking about T.Nasreen, Muslims are again very very quick to point out some of the rowdyism perpetuated by some Hindu groups regarding MFHussain paintings and the Chandramohan paintings. How can one effectively make differentiate the Hindu reactions vs Muslims reactions in these cases.

[JCage]

Nasreen spoke about the plight of Hindus in Bangladesh. MF Hussain and others did nothing of the sort. They got into trouble because of their depiction of Gods and Goddesses in quasi/sexual acts. TN otoh merely criticized Islam. Hundreds of people, critics criticize Hindus in writing but no rowdyism ensues on this scale. Counter articles are written, or the critics are just ignored.

There is simply no comparison.

[derkonig]

duplicate

AOA

[derkonig]

I have question. When talking about T.Nasreen, Muslims are again very very quick to point out some of the rowdyism perpetuated by some Hindu groups regarding MFHussain paintings and the Chandramohan paintings. How can one effectively make differentiate the Hindu reactions vs Muslims reactions in these cases.

well, a very interesting question..
sometimes i feel that the best way to asnwer this question is to use to methodology of commie propaganda esp. coz all we hear from our dhimmi media is commie lies. the best way to answer the question would be to completely discredit the other guy while maintaing that we & we alone are right. its a kinda extreme version of the open fly torn shirt thingy. we can keep harping on the open fly, dangling d**k & whatnot, while absolutely rubbishing the torn shirt counterargument.

so, for this topic, the argument should be like mf hussain is the biggest fundoo/painter jihadi/cultural terrorist/provocateur/filthy dirty old man/a blasphemous creature, while TN is a bold & righteous person who stands up to fundoos & terrorists. basically never relent from your position while constantly indicating that the counterargument is all false & lies.

this will work coz, propaganda is all what commies & islamists understand.
its a bit funny that the biggest bullies are also the biggest cowards, quite simply becoz they never face the bullying that the force upon others.


/rant off

[indygill]

Once again, it is clear that for Indian governments in the quest for votes, the commitment to secularism and freedom comes second. Instead, satisfying militant religious groups, Hindu and Muslim, seems to be the government’s first priority.

Don't you see the open biasness of Indian Media???????

What Hindu militant groups is "fetish" indian media talking of???????

Are they talking of individuals who questioned the wisdom of "painting Hindu goddesses "NUDE"............. or they mean individuals who were pissed because their God was being abused by GOI and being call "drunkard" by elected CM of a state>>.....................

As per Indian Media we all on BR are "HINDU MILITANTS" this despite the fact we do not plant bombs kill innocent and propagate my god is only god......... As per their standards any Hindu who meekly and willingly takes insults abuses and destruction of his or her faith, gods and religion is a NORMAL ACCEPTABLE HINDU.......... anyone who gets offended and makes noise in disgust is labelled "HINDU MILITANT"

This needs to STOP............

[indygill]

I have question. When talking about T.Nasreen, Muslims are again very very quick to point out some of the rowdyism perpetuated by some Hindu groups regarding MFHussain paintings and the Chandramohan paintings. How can one effectively make differentiate the Hindu reactions vs Muslims reactions in these cases.

As pointed out in previous post always pay more attention to how Indian press projects issue... it is the Indian institutions like in the news they are saying satisfying militant religious groups, Hindu and Muslim, seems to be the government’s first priority. Now there they are giving a defence to militant Muslims and justifying their actions by bringing in so called non existant Hindu Militants.....

Nasreen never insulted "Allah"......she only questioned the role of women as per Quran and Islamic law and called it "wrong"....

Well MF Hussain being a Muslim should have dared to draw Mohmads wives naked or should have had painted Mohmads harem nude.......

But being a muslim he knew that it is a big NO NO and insult to his own "faith" is unacceptable but using the pretext that since Hindus in India have no rights as "Hindus" ... lets go and creart a sensational "PLAYBOY" series of HINDU GODDESES.........

How can that act be compared to Nasreen case........ it would same if Hindus are asking anyone who questions "agni pariksha" from Tulsidas RCM should be punished for blashphemy

How can Indian media be so idiotic and anti-hindu and pro-islam...........

Look what has happened in Sudan a teacher named a teddy bear "Mohmad" and they are after her life...................

So who are "MILITANT" and what is the "SCARE" ... it is "PUNISHMENT" by "MILITANTS"...........

Now at the same time if HINDUS had MILITANTS MF HUssain and even the CM of Tamil Nadu would have never dared "INSULT" Hindu Gods and their faith..................

[vsudhir]

Indygill, about the sudan teddybear jihad that you mention,

Look what has happened in Sudan a teacher named a teddy bear "Mohmad" and they are after her life...................

here're some updates from yamrika.

FURTHER UPDATE: It didn't take long for the persecution of Gillian Gibbons to generate supportive web sites. At Tolerance Teddy.com you can support the "right to BEAR names" by buying a teddy bear named Muhammad:

click here for image link

[ramana]

is it politically correct to point out that the lead hijacker of the 911 WTC airplane attacks was named Mohammad Atta? Or is that against the Koran?

How does Islam reconcile when criminals named of their holy persons commit crimes? Every one of those hijackers was named after some koranic name.

[derkonig]

is it politically correct to point out that the lead hijacker of the 911 WTC airplane attacks was named Mohammad Atta? Or is that against the Koran?

How does Islam reconcile when criminals named of their holy persons commit crimes? Every one of those hijackers was named after some koranic name.

mo' atta is surely a big arab "hero/martyr" , no criminal

[ramana]

Why dont you want to call him by his given name? Thanks, ramana