India and Japan: News and Discussion

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Bart S
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Bart S » 18 Nov 2018 19:42

nam wrote:Money from Japan is all good, however for me it has been a disappointment. We want tech from Japan. Want them to build our tech industry just like they did with China.

However so far it has been complete disappointment. No major tech investment by Japanese companies. They prefer to import from China in to India.

Hope the bullet train brings some tech.



Nobody does that. They didn't go to China to 'build the Chinese tech industry', they did so because China delivered on the infrastructure, logistics and labour laws and they saw the opportunity to make money from it. We are building infrastructure at least, albeit much slower than the Chinese pace, but on labour reform it has been a big zero from all govts including current central and state ones so far. Don't expect large scale manufacturing to come here without that. India did have an advantage with electronics R&D and NPI type operations at least, but the Chinese have taken that over starting from low-end assembly and moved far ahead.

nam
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby nam » 19 Nov 2018 00:27

Bart S wrote:
Nobody does that. They didn't go to China to 'build the Chinese tech industry', they did so because China delivered on the infrastructure, logistics and labour laws and they saw the opportunity to make money from it. We are building infrastructure at least, albeit much slower than the Chinese pace, but on labour reform it has been a big zero from all govts including current central and state ones so far. Don't expect large scale manufacturing to come here without that. India did have an advantage with electronics R&D and NPI type operations at least, but the Chinese have taken that over starting from low-end assembly and moved far ahead.


It is not always our fault. There are enough states with good infrastructure and relaxed labour laws. If labor and infra were that bad, companies like Samsung would not be setting up shop.

South Korean companies seem to be more forth coming. SK even let K9 manufacturing to L&T for pity order of 100. Compared to that we invited Japan for P75I, the declined participate. On the other hand they have been very eager to manufacture the same sub in Australia, along with tech transfer

Given that Japan wants us to counter balance China in Asia and our drawback being technology, I would expect a push from the Japanese government to encourage Japanese companies to move some of the production from China and building up of Indian production and R&D tech. Nothing of that sort is happening. As seen in the Bullet train deal, if the Japanese gov really wants, it can make things happen.

I have come to a understanding that Japanese see us a competitor in Asia over the long term and have learnt from Chinese experience. Since we are in good terms with the West and in 10 years will have similar GDP economy, Japan would not like to set up another competitor, specially in the "friendly camp".

China is the adversary for Japan & US. India is not, in the same camp and have many advantages, which might bring down Japan's value in the group.

We should form a more strategic relationship with SK, if Japan is not planning to have a forth coming attitude.

Kashi
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Kashi » 19 Nov 2018 09:05

nam wrote:We should form a more strategic relationship with SK, if Japan is not planning to have a forth coming attitude.


There's little to believe that SK will be any different in this matter. For instance, have a look at the tech transfer disagreements involving K9 Vajra.

No one is going to share their secrets and risk the recipient surpassing them in one way or the other. Japan, SoKo and Taiwan are in a unique position of having received generous tech inputs and then generously or rather naively doling it out to the Chinese (in case of Japan also to SoKo and Taiwan) who are now undercutting them in the very same domains.

The only way to get the tech is to develop our own and as unethical as it may appear, the Chinese way.

nam
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby nam » 19 Nov 2018 13:25

Kashi wrote:
The only way to get the tech is to develop our own and as unethical as it may appear, the Chinese way.


We cannot realistically expect to design and build ourselves, specially for tech which we have no ecosystem of. We need someone to teach us to some level. Else there would be no need of universities and student can graduate themselves by studying at home.

Why do we need to steal? Look at Turkey. It has access to european tech and has been able to grow their ecosystem and build some good weapon system. Did they steal?

I am a great supporter of kis** Japan, SK & taiwan where ever they want, as long as they include us in their production supply & design chain.

Kashi
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Kashi » 19 Nov 2018 14:03

nam wrote:We cannot realistically expect to design and build ourselves, specially for tech which we have no ecosystem of. We need someone to teach us to some level. Else there would be no need of universities and student can graduate themselves by studying at home.

Why do we need to steal? Look at Turkey. It has access to european tech and has been able to grow their ecosystem and build some good weapon system. Did they steal?

I am a great supporter of kis** Japan, SK & taiwan where ever they want, as long as they include us in their production supply & design chain.


One may argue we have done similar with the auto industry, but still critical components (gear box transmission) are not fully indigenised.

Regarding Turkey, I do not really know how much high-end stuff they have actually designed as opposed to licensed manufacture.

The thing is our requirements are immense, we need cutting edge tech, but no one out there will share the meaty details with us, because then they will lose their cutting edge and they spend a long long time, money and efforts to get there. This is why they will be happy to set up license manufacturing and share the blue prints, tooling etc. But will always hold back the know-why. In the case of Japan, Korea and Taiwan it's a case of once-bitten-twice-shy based on their past experiences with China, or in case of Japan, thrice-bitten-so-very-shy. Why would they want to repeat, what they perceive as their past mistakes with us?

This is not about "kis*" anyone, but about realising that for cutting edge technologies, we'll have to develop it ourselves. Facilitate a set up that will nurture ideas and startups that will one day evolve into cutting edge technologies and applications. We can and should endeavour to participate in the supply chain and for that we need to provide incentives for those willing to invest. Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese or Europeans will all look for similar incentives that would prompt them to move their existing supply chains to India.

Other option is buy the technology and the know-why as it becomes available on the market- companies going into bankruptcy or disengaging from certain applications, for instance and therefore, IP and all the other details are put on sale. I believe Kalyani systems purchased the designs and all the tech for manufacturing 155mm guns from an Austrian company.

But even there, governments are also mindful of letting sensitive knowledge pass into foreign hands. Toshiba recently filed for bankruptcy and put out their units for sale, including the chip-making unit. Japanese government blocked a proposal from a Chinese company to acquire the unit.

Heck we have had Tatas owning JLR and Corus for a decade now. How much of high-end stuff from there has actually found its way into Tata Steel and/or Tata Motors?


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