Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 6

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Sumeet
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Re: Taqiyah Alert

Post by Sumeet »

G Subramaniam wrote:
Sumeet wrote: This may not satisfy you completely but you can see some acknowledgment from jamaat e islami hind about barbaric Islamic rulers.

http://jamaateislamihind.org/index.php? ... blockid=31
The first islamic barbarian who ordered the attack on india was the prophet Mohd
Where is the evidence for this ? This is the first time I am hearing that Prophet said that. None of the Islamic warriors who have invaded India in the name of Islam ever claimed to follow Mohammad's order.
The first islamic attack on India was done by the rightly guided caliph Umar in 636
The next islamic attack on India was done by the rightly guided caliph Ali
a few years later
Both these attacks failed
I have heard about these pre qasim attacks but was never able to verify them. If you can provide proof that will be nice.

Will any muslim denounce these acts of Mohd, Umar and Ali
And why worry, attacking first with the aim of bringing others into Islamic fold is ok and infact the way of Allah & his messenger but invading muslim country to bring democracy to them is terrorism and extremely condemnable.
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Re: Taqiyah Alert

Post by G Subramaniam »

Sumeet wrote:
G Subramaniam wrote: Where is the evidence for this ? This is the first time I am hearing that Prophet said that. None of the Islamic warriors who have invaded India in the name of Islam ever claimed to follow Mohammad's order.


------

Andre Wink Al-Hind, Vol-1 , page 192, page 193
Also google " Abu Huraira and India"



I have heard about these pre qasim attacks but was never able to verify them. If you can provide proof that will be nice.

----

Andre Wink, vol 1 and also Sita Ram Goel, Heroic Hindu Resistance
at bharatvani.org and RC.Majumdar

In short any non-secular historian

There were 17 invasions of Sindh before Kasim



I was once on a secular forum, with IMs and and leftists and gandhists
where there was gross whitewashing of islamic history

I shook the composure of the seculars by calling on VHP to burn an effigy of Umar at Thane, to commemorate the defeat of Umar in 636AD
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

SwamyG wrote:Shiv: I think we have taken the discussion to such a level that it might be timely to distinguish the term Hindu and the religion followed by the majority of people living in India - a.k.a Hinduism as commonly understood by people.
Hinduism is one of the religions followed by the Hindus. Again this is nothing new, Savarkar and others have done it decades ago.

Jwalamukhi: A strong identity can be countered by a stronger identity. For example the Tamil identity is quite strong in some muslims, and it looks like the Bengali identity is stronger too. When a person has strings attached to several such strong identities it takes lot of effort to sway him or her to one corner.
SwamyG: Regarding the Tamil identity it has thrown up very convoluted situations. Here is a one anecdote. It was in late May month, when intensity of sun is generally unbearable in Chidambaram. The temple (Tillai ambalan) complex closes around noon and it is tough task to trek the outer perimeter inside the complex, as stone floor heats up. At this time, I noticed a local woman wearing black buruqa (completely covered) with her pair of footwear clutched in her hands gingerly walking inside the temple complex barefoot (as required). The intent was for her to utilize the short path entering through one entrance and heading towards other entrance (donkey's theorem: sum of two sides of triangle greater than the third side) to get to whereever she wanted to. The temple complex is quite huge and hence will provide substantial advantage to use the shortest side of the triangle, instead of walking outside the boundary. It is extremely tough to wear black clothes in that kind of heat. So, very forcefully adhereing to edict of wearing buruqha, while having relaxed attitude about entering hindu temple complex, where men being naked above the waist is a common sight. The stone heats up and it requires breaking into short breaks into shade to cover even small distances inside the complex.Thought it was interesting how the edict was forcing the woman to balance multiple conflicting interests in an extremely non-islamic environment.
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Post by sanjaychoudhry »

To add to G Subramaniam's post:
On the basis of modern researches, Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad in his Humanity at Death's Door and Maulana Nadvi in his Indo-Arab Relations, write that between 638 and 711 A.D., the Arabs launched as many as fifteen attacks against Sindh by land and by sea. And it was only the last by Mohammed Bin Qasim in 711 that succeeded.

Chachnama, the most authentic and almost contemporary account of Arab invasions of Sindh reports that as early as 638 A.D. Khalifa Umar sent Mughairah to launch a naval attack against Sindh, but it was repulsed on the Indian side. The Chachnama Iists six more major attempts by land and/or by sea during the next 80 years, led by Hakam, Abdullah, Rashid, Munzir, Sinan, and Bazil, but they were all repulsed and the invading commanders killed.

Khalifa Usman was so upset by the Arab defeats in Sindh during his term that he forbade any more attempts on Sindh, on the ground that ``its water is dirty, its soil stony, and its fruit poisonous.''

It is interesting how a land of ``musk and pearls'' can suddenly become ``dirty and stony'', when there is no way to sack it. The Sindh grapes became sour! It reminds one of the contrasting Muslim view of the Hindus before and after partition. Before partition, the Hindus were ``dhoti-wearing cowards, drinking daal and munching papad''. But, after partition, when the Hindus showed that they could hit back real hard, they became ``terrible fiends''!

However, the itch for war and the bug for booty had bitten the Arab soul. And so Khalifa Ali also sent an expedition. But they returned disheartened when Ali died. The next Khalifa, Muawiyah, had sent a big land army with provisions enough not to need to light any fire in the camp. But the Sindh army gave them hell and their commander Abdullah had raised the piteous cry before he fell dead: ``Oh children of the Prophet's companions, do not turn your faces from the infidels so that your faith may remain free from any flaw and you may acquire the honour of freedom''. However, the Arabs had decided to run away and live, if only in Makran --- rather than fight on and die, just to go to heaven.

The next major invasion was led by ``Sinan, son of Salmah'', who had been blessed on his birth by Mohammed himself. Sinan now even saw in a dream, Mohammed bless his adventure. But neither the blessings on birth nor the benediction from the other world, availed him when the Sindhis killed him at Budhiya.

Governor Ziyad then appointed Munzir, son of Harud, son of Bazhar, in A.D. 680 to go and get Sindh. However, as he got up in the court, his robe was caught in a piece of wood and torn, Abdullah, the governor of Iraq, took this as a bad omen and wailed: Munzir will never return from this journey and will die.'' And that was exactly what happened.

At this stage, Hajjaj, a notorious pervert and tyrant, was appointed governor of Iraq. And it was directly his charge to conquer Sindh. An Arab leader Alafi with 500 men had fled from his terror to Sindh and Dahir had given him asylum. Hajjaj also claimed that the Sindhi pirates had looted some Arab ships coming from Lanka. He made these two incidents a new excuse to go to war against Sindh. Khalifa Walid gave reluctant permission. Hajjaj sent Bazil with a large army, but he was worsted by Jaisiah, the son of Dahir, and killed. Hajjaj now threatened ``not to leave a single kafir alive up to the frontiers of China''. And on the basis of his astrologers' predictions, he appointed Mohammed Bin Qasim, his nephew and son-in-law, as the new invader of Sindh. So, astrologers were heeded not only by Dahirs but also by Hajjajs!

However, Khalifa Walid was in no mood for another bloody attempt on Sindh. He wrote to Hajjaj: ``The people (of that country) are cunning and the country itself is very distant. It will cost us very large sums of money to provide a sufficient number of men and arms and instruments of war. This affair will be a source of great anxiety, and so we must put it off; for every time the army goes (on such an expedition) vast numbers of Muslims are killed. So think no more of such a design.'' But Hajjaj invoked the ``honour of Islam''and vowed to ``spend the wealth of the whole of Iraq'' to ``avenge the death of Bazil''.

On an ``auspicious day'' in A.D. 711 --- fixed by astrologers --- Mohammed Bin Qasim started for Sindh at the head of the Iraqi, Syrian, and other Arab soldiers of fortune. His horses and camels were given coats of mail to look like lions and elephants, respectively!

When the Arab army besieged Debal (meaning ``Deval'' or ``Devalaya'', `place of god' temple) the battle raged for ten days even though it was not a major town of Sindh like Alor, Sehwan Nerunkot (Hyderabad), or Brahmanabad. The fortified temple fell when a frightened Brahmin crept out and told the Arabs to knock off the tall flagpole flying the huge red flag, to demoralise the defenders. At this stage, Jahin Budh, the incharge of Debal, surrendered. Carnage followed. And so did general collapse.

At a time when the Arabs were short of both food and fodder, Bhandarkan Samani, the man incharge of Nerunkot, surrendered that town. The Samanis or Shamans --- the Buddhist counterparts of Brahmins --- took the line that, as Buddhists, they were men of peace and not interested in who ruled the country. They would not let Bachehra, the governor of Sehwan, to continue the defence of the town after one week. At a time when the Arabs did not know how to cross the Sindhu, one Mokah, the son of Besayeh, a princeling, made boats and provisions available in return for crown and estate. The astrologers now began to predict the ``inevitable victory of the Arabs''. But Dahir still continued to be over-confident. Contrary to the Arab Alafi's advice, he allowed the Arabs to cross the river to be able to fight, ``lest it be imagined by them that we are in perplexity and have become very weak and powerless.''

As the battle raged between the Sindhis and the Arabs, Ubaid, a lieutenant of Alafi, went over to the Arabs and told them of Dahir's plans. Even so, the Sindhi army fought so well that, says the Chachnama, on the eleventh and last day, ``the army of Islam became irresolute and their lines were broken up in great confusion. It was generally believed that the Arabs were defeated, and put to flight.''

Mohammed Bin Qasim was then ``so perplexed that he called out for water''. At this stage traitor Mokah with his men arrived on the scene and joined the Arab forces. Simultaneously a cry went up that the princesses in the Sindhi army had been cornered. This led to confusion. Dahir was heard by the Arabs shouting something like ``nisi man, nisi man'', (meaning ``here I am, here I am'') -so as to tell his men not to lose heart. But then a fiery arrow hit Dahir's howdah and set it on fire. Soon after, another arrow pierced his heart. And then all was over. It was on the evening of Thursday the 16 June A.D. 712. After fifteen attempts by nine Khalifas over a period of seventy-four years (638-712 A.D.) the Arabs had conquered Sindh. It was one of the saddest days in Indian history.
http://yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu/~jamali/sindh/story/
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Post by Ashok Sarraff »

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
After fifteen attempts by nine Khalifas over a period of seventy-four years (638-712 A.D.) the Arabs had conquered Sindh. It was one of the saddest days in Indian history.
I think we have still not realized that there is no final respite unless we take the war to the enemy camp and eliminate the threat at the source. In modern times, Pakis have tried their luck four times and the Chinese once. With the informal war weakening India from the inside, unless we make Pakis and Chinese pay in one form of the other, their designs are likely to succeed one day. This is especially true since we do not have any counter-design for them! Shall we always only be defensive?

A
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Post by ShauryaT »

Thank you very much for posting this link.
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Post by sanjaychoudhry »

ShauryaT wrote:
Thank you very much for posting this link.
The book is written by K. R. Malkani, a life-long BJP man and a Sindhi himself, though now he is no more. I will post the link in E-books thread too. Really interesting read.
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Post by G Subramaniam »

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Thank you very much for posting this link.
The book is written by K. R. Malkani, a life-long BJP man and a Sindhi himself, though now he is no more. I will post the link in E-books thread too. Really interesting read.
This link is owned by Nadeem Jamali, a muslim sindhi
who is closely associated with Gul Agha, another muslim sindhi, who has written an article
Should Pakistan be broken up

Gul Agha is a follower of late GM.Syed
GM.Syed was a muslim sindhi leader, who had started an Ayodhya type agitation against a hindu temple in sindh
He was also instrumental in getting Sindh annexed by pakistan

He later fell out with the pakjabis and got put in jail for decades
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Prophet Mohammed in his own words about India

Post by G Subramaniam »

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 948AA4TeA3

Was Prophet Mohammed(Pbuh) aware about Indian subcontinent during his time?

Narrated Thuban: Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) has said: Hell fire will not touch the one who fight against India and the one (who fight against Anti-Christ) in companionship with Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) (Masnad Shamin-1851, Ahmad-642, Nisai-426, Abu Uruba AlHarani-2102, Bukhari Tarikh AlKabir-726, Ibne Adi-5832, Ibne Asakar-110015).

And a similar hadith narrated in Sunnan Nisai AlKubra-4382 and Masnad Ahmad Bin Hanbal-7128. Narrated Abu Huraira: Apostle of Allah informed for fighting against India and I will be present (on the occasion) I will join it myself and with my property, if I will be killed I will be among high grade martyrs and I will return (living) I will be called free Abu Huraira
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Post by SwamyG »

JwalaMukhi wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Shiv: I think we have taken the discussion to such a level that it might be timely to distinguish the term Hindu and the religion followed by the majority of people living in India - a.k.a Hinduism as commonly understood by people.
Hinduism is one of the religions followed by the Hindus. Again this is nothing new, Savarkar and others have done it decades ago.

Jwalamukhi: A strong identity can be countered by a stronger identity. For example the Tamil identity is quite strong in some muslims, and it looks like the Bengali identity is stronger too. When a person has strings attached to several such strong identities it takes lot of effort to sway him or her to one corner.
SwamyG: Regarding the Tamil identity it has thrown up very convoluted situations. Here is a one anecdote. It was in late May month, when intensity of sun is generally unbearable in Chidambaram. The temple (Tillai ambalan) complex closes around noon and it is tough task to trek the outer perimeter inside the complex, as stone floor heats up. At this time, I noticed a local woman wearing black buruqa (completely covered) with her pair of footwear clutched in her hands gingerly walking inside the temple complex barefoot (as required). The intent was for her to utilize the short path entering through one entrance and heading towards other entrance (donkey's theorem: sum of two sides of triangle greater than the third side) to get to whereever she wanted to. The temple complex is quite huge and hence will provide substantial advantage to use the shortest side of the triangle, instead of walking outside the boundary. It is extremely tough to wear black clothes in that kind of heat. So, very forcefully adhereing to edict of wearing buruqha, while having relaxed attitude about entering hindu temple complex, where men being naked above the waist is a common sight. The stone heats up and it requires breaking into short breaks into shade to cover even small distances inside the complex.Thought it was interesting how the edict was forcing the woman to balance multiple conflicting interests in an extremely non-islamic environment.
Was she a Pattani? Broadly, the tamil muslims can be divided into two groups - one that takes pride in tamil identity, the other one that does not. The latter group looks down upon the former. And I am sure the former group is being eroded as we speak and are moving into the latter.
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Post by archan »

SwamyG wrote:
archan wrote:^^ Those are words of gold. My regards to whoever wrote them. I love how beautifully he defined 'Hindu' - something I have been feeling but never could express correctly. So not being religious does not automatically make someone not-Hindu....and not calling oneself Hindu (as in the so-called religion) does not make one an alien among their own Dharmic people. Very well put.
V.D.Savarkar says something along similar lines in his "Essentials of Hindutva". His style of writing is little verbose, but probably that's how people wrote in those times. It is available on the internet, if you can't find it email me at swamyg at comcast dot net. I can email you a text copy I downloaded sometime back.

And if you have already read it just ignore me.....
Thanks. Is it the one called just 'Hindutva' by Veer Savarkar? Some of the e-books are listed on this page I found, might be useful for other readers too. So let me post the URL.
http://www.esnips.com/_t_/savarkar
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Post by Sumeet »

GS, thanks for all those sources.

I did google on Abu Huraira and India.

CONQUEST OF INDIA PRIOR TO THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

Source: Islaam.Com
By Sh. Ali Al-Timimi
Reference: At-Tuwaijiri's Ithaf al-Jama'a, Vol. 1, pp. 365-366.

The latest conflict in Kashmir between the mujahideen and India brings to mind the ahadeeth regarding the conquest of India prior to the day of Judgment.

Thawban - may Allah be pleased with him - that the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "Two groups of my umma Allah has protected from the hellfire: a group that will conquer India and a group that will be with 'Isa b. Maryam - 'alaihimas- salat was-salam." Reported Ahmad, an-Nisa'i, and at-Tabarani.

Na'im b. Hammad in al-Fitan reports that Abu Huraira - may Allah be pleased with him - said that the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) mentioned India and said, "A group of you will conquer India, Allah will open for them [India] until they come with its kings chained - Allah having forgiven their sins - when they return back [from India], they will find Ibn Maryam in Syria."


While Abu Huraira said, "The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) promised us the conquest of India. If I was to come across that I will spend my soul and wealth. If I am killed then I am among the best of martyrs. And if I return then I am Abu Huraira the freed." Reported by Ahmad, an-Nisa'i, and al-Hakim.

In another narration reported by Ahmad, Abu Huraira says, "I was told by my khalil, teh truthful and believed in, the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) that there will be in this umma an expedition sent to Sind and Hind (India) ... ." The rest of the narration is the same but it has the following addition, "... then I will be released from the Hellfire." At-Tuwaijri remarks this addition explains what is meant by "the freed" above.

Historical background:

Ibn Kathir remarks in al-Bidaya wa n-Nihaya, "The Muslims invaded India during the days of Mu'awiya in the year 44 A.H and [great] events transpired then. And [likewise] the mighty and magnificent King Mahmud b. Subuktikin the ruler of Ghazna invaded the lands of India at the turn of the fifth century. He entered India and killed, took captive, [and] enslaved [many]. He took [muc] booty. He entered as-Sumanat (*) and destroyed the great al-Budda which they worship and he stripped it of its jewlery. He then returned [to Ghazna] safe, [Divinely-]aided, and victorious."

* as-Sumanat is a costal city where India's scholars, monks, and the idol al-Budda are found.

At-Tuwaijiri remarks that Ibn al-Athir has detailed the campaigns of Mahmud b. Subuktikin in his book al-Kamil fi t-Tarikh.

Reference: At-Tuwaijiri's Ithaf al-Jama'a, Vol. 1, pp. 365-366.
Is there any other way to verify authenticity of this hadith ? Surprising none on any puki forum have ever used it when they spew their hatred of India.

They are talking about some future conquest of India, because simultaneously they also talk about second coming of Jesus.

Faraz, can you verify this hadith or get an opinion of learned scholar on it ?
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Post by SwamyG »

Yes, I was referring to that piece.
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Sumeet - Hadith Collections

Post by G Subramaniam »

And a similar hadith narrated in Sunnan Nisai AlKubra-4382 and Masnad Ahmad Bin Hanbal-7128

. Narrated Abu Huraira: Apostle of Allah informed for fighting against India and I will be present (on the occasion) I will join it myself and with my property, if I will be killed I will be among high grade martyrs and I will return (living) I will be called free Abu Huraira

http://archives.themadina.com//year2001/2282.html

It was reported by Abu Hurairah (radhiAllahu anhu) who said, "The Messanger of Allah[saw] promised us the battle of Hind. If I am alive when it transpires, I would offer myself and my money (to its cause). If I were to die, I would be among the best Martyrs and if I were to return (alive) I would (certainly) be (among those who are) freed from the Hell Fire."
(Nisaee, 3123)

It was reported by Thawban, the Maula(freed captive) of the Prophet[saw], that He [saw] said: "two groups from my Ummah, Allah has saved from the Hell Fire. A group that (will) wage battle against Hind and another (group) who will be with 'Esa the son of Mariam, on both of them be peace."
(Nisaee, 778)


The above Ahadeeth can be found in An Nisaee's collection on the Sunnan, vol. 6, the chapter on Jihad, section: The battle of Hind (India)
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Post by shyam »

Since we are talking about Muhammed's own intention of attacking India, I would like to narrate another story I heard about him. Before going to the details (of course from my memory) let me make full disclaimer that personally I have no evidence to back it up. If anybody here has heard this story before, please feel free to post further details or corrections.

The story goes like this:
A famous guru from Somnath/Sindh (I'm not sure) went to Arabya and performed a lot of miracles along with two of his desciples. They got a lot of money and became famous. With the money they established a place of worship and called it Maha Mutt. One desciple was very honest and the other was cunning and greedy. One day the second one killed the other desciple and guru to take the full ownership of place of worship and wealth. At the time of his death guru told the desciple that he would start a new form of worship and that will last for 1750 years and after that that will die. But desciple said he will destroy the gurus style of worship.
I completely agree that this story is not much different from the claim that Taj Mahal is Thejo Mahalaya. In fact this story raises more questions than providing answers. Interestingly, it answers some similiarities found between the namaz poses and Yoga.

Another part I heard about this story is that this was discovered by Chinmaya Mission. Nehru, being scared that this will start major communal violence in India, forced them to suppress it. It is said that the proof and details are still available at Chinmaya Mission Mumbai office. If anybody on this forum has access to Chinmaya Mission Mumbai office, it will be great if he could spare some time to search and prove or disprove this theory.
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Post by JE Menon »

G Subramanian,

>>GM.Syed was a muslim sindhi leader, who had started an Ayodhya type agitation against a hindu temple in sindh

What do you mean by "Ayodhya type agitation", precisely? There has been, as far as I know, no record of any Hindu ruler demolishing a mosque and building a temple on its site - using for construction, materials from the destroyed site as was often the case. So no agitation, especially one started by a bigot who thought he could only live with Hindus if his community ruled over them, can be compared to the historical course that led to the destruction of the Babri Masjid at Ayodhya. There are at least two problems with this sort of parallellisation: (1) it limits what is a historical grievance to a purely political context, as the BJP was seen as being behind the immediate sequence of events that ended with the destruction of the Babri Masjid, and (2) it equates what is virtually an insignificant local political skirmish to an event that affects the mind of every Hindu who thinks about it, one way or the other, and therefore diminishes the importance of something very important to many, perhaps the majority, of Hindus.

Such comparisons, even if unwitting, are therefore not helpful.
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Post by G Subramaniam »

JE Menon wrote:G Subramanian,

>>GM.Syed was a muslim sindhi leader, who had started an Ayodhya type agitation against a hindu temple in sindh

What do you mean by "Ayodhya type agitation", precisely? There has been, as far as I know, no record of any Hindu ruler demolishing a mosque and building a temple on its site - using for construction, materials from the destroyed site as was often the case. So no agitation, especially one started by a bigot who thought he could only live with Hindus if his community ruled over them, can be compared to the historical course that led to the destruction of the Babri Masjid at Ayodhya. There are at least two problems with this sort of parallellisation: (1) it limits what is a historical grievance to a purely political context, as the BJP was seen as being behind the immediate sequence of events that ended with the destruction of the Babri Masjid, and (2) it equates what is virtually an insignificant local political skirmish to an event that affects the mind of every Hindu who thinks about it, one way or the other, and therefore diminishes the importance of something very important to many, perhaps the majority, of Hindus.

Such comparisons, even if unwitting, are therefore not helpful.
Here is the story
Perhaps I should have used a different term than Ayodhya

Several Maratha rulers demolished mosques built over temples and restored the hindu temple

In Delhi, in 1780, the sikhs marched in, and demolished the mosque where Guru Tegh Bahadur was killed and built a Gurudwara on top of it
And thanks to fear of the sikhs, the muslims did not squawk
I think this is either the Sis Ganj or Bangla Sahid Gurudwara in Delhi

The sikhs also demolished the Shahidganj Mosque in Lahore ( where earlier several sikhs had been killed ) and built a gurudwara

Mosque demolition by hindus is associated with rebuilding temples
and mosque demolition by sikhs is associated with builing a gurudwara over a mosque where sikhs had been killed for refusing to convert to islam




In muslim societies, people who pick fights with kafirs rise to the top
G.M.Syed, a Jinnah follower, was a nobody, until he started an anti-hindu agitation

In one major temple in Sindh, he made a claim that part of it was built over a mosque ( Historically impossible ), created riots and destroyed the hindu temple.
This enabled him to overthrow the more moderate sindhi leadership
and win the sindhi muslim vote and secede

The main difference between Ayodhya is that in Ayodhya, an actual temple has been excavated under the mosque

In Sindh, it has always been under muslim rule for 1000 years and no possibility of temple built over mosque

I will dig up the full details below

http://sindhithinkers.blogspot.com/2007 ... sindh.html

An example of such mad menace was the ugly incident of "Masjid ManzilGah". After the conquest of Sindh, the British government converted an abandoned mosque with an administrative office. The mosque was situated in Sukkur ManzilGah. The Muslims wanted the original status of the mosque to be restored. It was an issue between the Muslims and the Government and Hindus had nothing to do with it except that there existed a Hindu temple 'Sadh Belo' in the middle of the Indus river opposite to this mosque
---

As part of this agitation several anti-hindu riots took place, since the muslims also wanted the land of the hindu temple
Last edited by G Subramaniam on 10 Feb 2008 20:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by shiv »

G Subramaniam wrote: The main difference between Ayodhya is that in Ayodhya, an actual temple has been excavated under the mosque
Evidence please. Let us have dharma.
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Post by G Subramaniam »

shiv wrote:
G Subramaniam wrote: The main difference between Ayodhya is that in Ayodhya, an actual temple has been excavated under the mosque
Evidence please. Let us have dharma.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/aug/25ayo1.htm

Proof of temple found at Ayodhya: ASI report

August 25, 2003 18:31 IST
Last Updated: August 25, 2003 19:35 IST


In what could be a turning point in the Ayodhya dispute, the Archaeological Survey of India has reported to the high court that its excavations found distinctive features of a 10th century temple beneath the Babri Mosque site.

The Sunni Central Waqf Board, however, termed the report as 'vague and self-contradictory'.

The 574-page ASI report consisting of written opinions and maps and drawings was opened before the full Lucknow bench of the Allahabad high court on Monday morning.

The report said there was archaeological evidence of a massive structure just below the disputed structure and evidence of continuity in structural activities from the 10th century onwards up to the construction of the disputed structure (Babri Mosque).

Among the excavation yields it mentioned were stone and decorated bricks, mutilated sculpture of divine couple, carved architectural members including foliage patterns, amalaka, kapotapali, doorjamb with semi-circular shrine pilaster, broken octagonal shaft of black schist pillar, lotus motif, circular shrine having pranjala (watershute) in the north and 50 pillar bases in association with a huge structure.

The archaeological evidence and other discoveries from the site were indicative of remains that are distinctive features found associated with the temples of north India, the ASI report said.

The ASI report said there is sufficient proof of existence of a massive and monumental structure having a minimum dimension of 50x30 metres in north-south and east-west directions respectively just below the disputed structure.

In course of present excavations nearly 50 pillar bases with brickbat foundation below calcrete blocks topped by sandstone blocks were found, the report said.

It said the pillar bases exposed during the present excavation in the northern and southern areas also give an idea of the length of the massive wall of earlier construction with which they are associated and which might have been originally around 60 metres.

The centre of the main chamber of the disputed structure falls just over the central point of the length of the massive wall of the preceding period which could not be excavated due to presence of Ram Lala at the spot in the make-shift structure, the ASI report said.

In a significant observation the report said towards east of this central point, a circular depression with projection on the west, cut into the large sized brick pavement, signifying the place where some important object was placed.

The ASI report, however, said various structures exposed right from the Sunga to Gupta period do not speak either about their nature or functional utility as no evidence has come to approbate them.

The report said during and after the Gupta period up to late and post-Mughal period the regular habitational deposits disappear in the concerned levels and the structural phases are associated with either structural debris or filling material taken out from the adjoining area to level the ground for construction purpose.

As a result of this much of the earlier material in the form of pottery, terracottas and other objects of preceding periods, particularly of Kushan period, are found in the deposits of later periods mixed along with contemporary material, it said.

The area below the disputed site thus remained a place for public use for a long time till the Mughal period when the disputed structure was built which was confined to a limited area and the population settled around it as evidenced by the increase in contemporary archaeological material including pottery, the ASI said in its report.

It went on to state that this observation was further attested by the conspicuous absence of habitational structures such as house-complexes, soakage pits, soakage jars, ring wells, drains, wells, hearths, kilns or furnaces.

The report said the human activity at the site dates back to 13th century BC on the basis of the scientific dating method providing the only archaeological evidence of such an early date of the occupation of the site.

The ASI report said the northern black polished ware using people were the first to occupy the disputed site at Ayodhya in the first millennium BC although no structural activities were encountered in the limited area probed.

A round signet with legend in Asokan Brahmi is another important find of this level, it said.

The report said the Sunga period (second-first century BC) comes next in order of the cultural occupation at the site followed by the Kushan period.

The report said during the early medieval period (11-12th century AD) a huge structure of nearly 50 metres north-south orientation was constructed which seems to have been short lived as only four of the 50 pillar bases exposed during the excavation belonged to this level with a brick crush floor

On the remains of the above structure was constructed a massive structure with at least three structural phases and three successive floors attached with it, it said.

The architectural members of the earlier short-lived massive structure with stencil-cut foliage pattern and other decorative motifs were reused in the construction of the monumental structure which has a huge pillared hall different from residential structures providing sufficient evidence of construction of public usages which remained under existence for a long time during the period, the report said.

The report concluded that it was over the top of this construction during the early 16th century that the disputed structure was constructed directly resting over it.
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Post by shiv »

G Subramaniam wrote:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/aug/25ayo1.htm

Among the excavation yields it mentioned were stone and decorated bricks, mutilated sculpture of divine couple, carved architectural members including foliage patterns, amalaka, kapotapali, doorjamb with semi-circular shrine pilaster, broken octagonal shaft of black schist pillar, lotus motif, circular shrine having pranjala (watershute) in the north and 50 pillar bases in association with a huge structure.

The archaeological evidence and other discoveries from the site were indicative of remains that are distinctive features found associated with the temples of north India, the ASI report said.
What is all this stuff?
mutilated sculpture of divine couple, carved architectural members including foliage patterns, amalaka, kapotapali, doorjamb with semi-circular shrine pilaster, broken octagonal shaft of black schist pillar, lotus motif, circular shrine having pranjala (watershute)
Can someone illustrate with pictures of North India temples that have these things?

Who are "divine couple"?

What are amalaka, kapotapali and pranjala?
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Post by shiv »

Not liking Praful bidwai is not a good enough excuse IMO
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/mar/26bidwai.htm

The point I am trying to make is that Ayodhya is a sacred place for Hindus whether temple remains are found or not under the now-destroyed Masjid.

How far can a basically stupid argument be carried on about a mosque on a temple site when thewhole goddam place is sacred? I can't for the life of me understand this obsession with that effing Mosque.

A man's wife gets raped by someone and he keeps on insisting on searching for a gold ring he says was hidden in her panties. For God's sake - the whole woman was violated. Evidence of lack of evidence of a ring in the panty is peripheral to the issue. Even if a ring was never there, the fact of her violation is not removed.

Why do you want to continue this obtuse Hindus stupidity GSubramaniam? Ignoring he obvious and obsessively clinging on to some minor detail.

Could it be because the VHP and the BJPs izzat is at stake more than the truth for Hindus
Come off it please.

G Subramaniam - some of your posts are truly laughable and I cringe at the self goals you sometimes score. Heck - I am amazed at how you destroy 10 posts worth of statistics and data with one post of absolute garbage.
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Post by G Subramaniam »

shiv wrote:Not liking Praful bidwai is not a good enough excuse IMO
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/mar/26bidwai.htm

The point I am trying to make is that Ayodhya is a sacred place for Hindus whether temple remains are found or not under the now-destroyed Masjid.

How far can a basically stupid argument be carried on about a mosque on a temple site when thewhole goddam place is sacred? I can't for the life of me understand this obsession with that effing Mosque.

A man's wife gets raped by someone and he keeps on insisting on searching for a gold ring he says was hidden in her panties. For God's sake - the whole woman was violated. Evidence of lack of evidence of a ring in the panty is peripheral to the issue. Even if a ring was never there, the fact of her violation is not removed.

Why do you want to continue this obtuse Hindus stupidity GSubramaniam? Ignoring he obvious and obsessively clinging on to some minor detail.

Could it be because the VHP and the BJPs izzat is at stake more than the truth for Hindus
Come off it please.

G Subramaniam - some of your posts are truly laughable and I cringe at the self goals you sometimes score. Heck - I am amazed at how you destroy 10 posts worth of statistics and data with one post of absolute garbage.
Shiv , you asked for proof on Ayodhya on your previous post
What I posted is ASI findings submitted to Allahabad High Court
This is not VHP-BJP Stuff
ASI is using technical terms to describe that they found a huge temple complex dating back at least to Gupta times, under the Babri structure
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Post by JE Menon »

>>Several Maratha rulers demolished mosques built over temples and restored the hindu temple

This is different from what I’m saying. Is there evidence of any temple built over a destroyed mosque (that was not originally a temple – a la Ayodhya, which is what you compared it with. There was no mosque under the temple there, certainly). That is why I am saying the comparison was inappropriate.

>>Mosque demolition by hindus is associated with rebuilding temples

Maybe, but only AFAIK where it has happened that temples were destroyed at the site to begin with. It is possible that a random mosque, built without desecrating a temple, was destroyed in the flush of war. But I cannot imagine that a Hindu temple would be built on it. Which shastry will agree to something like that in view of the inauspiciousness of the thing? But if such temples exist, please do inform. Otherwise, you would have wrongly introduced an idea of vandalism by Hindus of places of worship of other faiths for no reason other than pure bigotry.

>>In one major temple in Sindh, he made a claim that part of it was built over a mosque ( Historically impossible ), created riots and destroyed the hindu temple… In Sindh, it has always been under muslim rule for 1000 years and no possibility of temple built over mosque

Exactly, and that is why the association with Ayodhya is wrong. You have rightly acknowledged that maybe you should have used another word. So there is no issue. But we need to explain why such associations can be harmful...
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Post by G Subramaniam »

JE Menon wrote:>>Several Maratha rulers demolished mosques built over temples and restored the hindu temple

This is different from what I’m saying. Is there evidence of any temple built over a destroyed mosque (that was not originally a temple – a la Ayodhya, which is what you compared it with. There was no mosque under the temple there, certainly).

Never

That is why I am saying the comparison was inappropriate.

>>Mosque demolition by hindus is associated with rebuilding temples

Maybe, but only AFAIK where it has happened that temples were destroyed at the site to begin with.

Correct

It is possible that a random mosque, built without desecrating a temple, was destroyed in the flush of war. But I cannot imagine that a Hindu temple would be built on it. Which shastry will agree to something like that in view of the inauspiciousness of the thing? But if such temples exist, please do inform. Otherwise, you would have wrongly introduced an idea of vandalism by Hindus of places of worship of other faiths for no reason other than pure bigotry.

>>In one major temple in Sindh, he made a claim that part of it was built over a mosque ( Historically impossible ), created riots and destroyed the hindu temple… In Sindh, it has always been under muslim rule for 1000 years and no possibility of temple built over mosque

Exactly, and that is why the association with Ayodhya is wrong. You have rightly acknowledged that maybe you should have used another word. So there is no issue. But we need to explain why such associations can be harmful...
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Sis Ganj Gurudwara built on demolished mosque in Delhi

Post by G Subramaniam »

In many mosques where sikhs were martyred by muslims, the mosques were demolished and a gurudwara was raised in its place

This does not happen to general purpose mosques, except in east punjab 1947


http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060402/society.htm#3

Aurangzeb fixed November 11, 1675, as the day for either the Guru to show him a miracle or be prepared to be beheaded.

The guru took his last bath from the nearby well and sat at the marked place
...

For nearly 100 years, the spot where the Guru was beheaded was lost and a mosque was built there. After Sardar Baghel Singh occupied Delhi, he entered an agreement with Emperor Shah Alam II which allowed him him to construct seven historic gurdwaras. Bagel Singh then started searching for the place where Guru Teg Bahadur was executed. He met many residents and ultimately came across a Mashkan, (wife of the Mashki) who had sprinkled water around the spot. She pointed to the mosque and the tree under which the Guru was martyred. Bhagel Singh began work to demolish the mosque but there was resistance from the local residents. The matter was reported to the emperor. He ruled in favour of the mosque being demolished and gurdwara being built there.

Soon after Baghel Singh left Delhi, the gurdwara was demolished and a mosque was again built at the spot.

Later, in 1861, at the request of Raja Sarup Singh of Jind, the British allowed the mosque to be demolished and the gurdwara to be raised again.

This move was challenged in the Calcutta High Court, which issued a decree for the construction of the mosque there. Raja Randhir Singh, successor of Sarup Singh, did not allow the matter to rest there. He took the case to the Privy Council and pursued it with great vigour. The council ruled in favour of the Sikhs. The gurdwara in its present shape came up in 1930.
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Some mosques returned to hindus during british rule

Post by G Subramaniam »

http://www.prafullgoradia.com/hindu-mas ... eview.html


Goradia describes a converted mosque as, "A mosque, which is obviously still the structure of a temple and can be used by the Hindus for worship, should be returned. There are many such edifices where the sanctum sanctorum has been walled up, a mehrab constructed towards the direction of Holy Mecca and statuettes have been defaced. In some case, a small dome has been built above the mimbar or the pulpit

''''

Apart from tales of Hindu discomfiture the author has something encouraging to relate. A few temples converted to mosques subsequently underwent what he calls shuddhi in the stones, and returned to Hindus fold. Govind Dev temple at Vrindavan was returned to Hindus by the British administration in 1870, 200 years after it was converted to a mosque by Aurangzeb. A similar story with Rohini temple at Mahavana, near Vrindavana. However, most historic is the instance of the Jain temples inside the fort of Devgiri (later Daulatabad) converted into Malik Kafur, but reconverted to a non-controversial Bharat Mata Mandir under the aegis of the Government of India, after the liberation of Hyderabad. And there is a case of spontaneous shuddhi Sultan Ghari, in the vicinity of Vasant Kunj, South Delhu wherein Hindus perform puja along side Muslims performing ibaadat
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SUFI Mir Hamdani mosque in Kashmir

Post by G Subramaniam »

http://www.kashmir-information.com/past ... pter1.html

Mir Ali Hamadani was the author of the iconoclastic chapter of Kashmir History.29 He was responsible for the desecration and demolition of the famous temple of Kalishree and the erection of a mosque on the plinth of the said-temple. He set the sordid precedent of blatant interference in the religious life of the Hindus by dismantling and then grabbing their places of religious worship. The mosque has been a bone of discord between the Hindus and the Muslims generating many a religious strife. Phula Singh, a Sikh general, enraged by the demolition of the said-temple, trained his guns against the mosque30 which escaped demolition only at the intervention of a Hindu.

....


In the wake of it, the repression of the Kashmirian Hindus took a new turn because of the advice Mir Ali Hamadani had tendered to the ruler, Qutb-ud-din, the surrogate of Shihab-ud-din. The bigoted Muslims out to launch a persecutionary campaign against the non-violent Hindus
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Post by shiv »

Two points:

1) The ASI report on Ayodhya is disputed because of its vagueness and non specificity. While absence of firm archaeological proof is not an indicator that a temple did not exist there, imagine the effect of finding a proper temple there? That has not occurred. It is possible that any temple may have been well and truly pulverised beyond recognition. If that is the case what is the point in banging ones head against the brick wall of ambiguous archaeological evidence?

2) All this is not to suggest that temples were not destroyed and converted to mosques.

So what is the problem?

The problem is basically a denial that this occurred isn't it? And the problem is also a reluctance to face up to history and figure out the places in which this has occurred.

The same argument can be used by opposite camps.

I have used the expression "face up to history"

Let me start with the statement that Hindus must face up to history. Hindus must face up to the fact that Islamic conqerors came in and destroyed temples and ask themselves "What the fck are you going to do about it?"

Unfortunately, when you apply the same argument "face up to history" - it means that Islamic hordes did actually destroy temples and build mosques in their places. Why accept history only from the time the raiders came in? Why not take history back to an earlier time that remains well within Hindu memory?

Once again, the communal trouble that we face is based less on Muslim action, but on a Hindu grievance, a Hindu lament about lack of recognition of Hindu history. In a country with 80% Hindus this is a serious and inexcusable lacuna.
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Post by SwamyG »

I just like to understand connection between Ayodhya, Muhammad etc. and 'tackling islamism"?
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Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:Two points:

1) The ASI report on Ayodhya is disputed because of its vagueness and non specificity. While absence of firm archaeological proof is not an indicator that a temple did not exist there, imagine the effect of finding a proper temple there? That has not occurred. It is possible that any temple may have been well and truly pulverised beyond recognition. If that is the case what is the point in banging ones head against the brick wall of ambiguous archaeological evidence?

2) All this is not to suggest that temples were not destroyed and converted to mosques.

Shiv, Yours is an old argument. The data and facts have moved forward now and the temple authenticity and historicity has been established.

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/arti ... nlost.html
Whereas some Indian papers threw themselves headlong into the mendacious operation of denying the ASI findings, others did set the record straight, or at least gave space to guest authors to do so. As no one in his journalistic hurry seems to have tried to summarize the whole of the report, and everyone was satisfied with bits and pieces if at all they had seen the report, the numbers of finds differ according to the source. According to the Press Trust of India (11 June), �eight articles were found in excavation work in nine trenches on the acquired land around [the] makeshift temple�. Most helpfully, this source adds the communal detail: �There were 131 labourers including 29 Muslims engaged in the digging work today�. The internet version of The Hindu, www.hinduonnet.com (22 June), mentions �structural anomalies in 46 trenches� of the 84 trenches investigated, as well as �pillar bases and drains in some of the trenches�.



In Outlook India (23 June), Sandipan Deb gave a more detailed overview of the report: �While most papers covering the new ASI report last week said that it claims there was no structure under the Babri Masjid, what the report actually says is that of the 30 recent trenches, the team has found man-made structures in eight, and none in 16. In five, they couldn�t decide due to �structural activities in the upper levels� (mainly the plinth of the Babri Masjid). One trench they did not survey. Among the structures listed in the report are several brick walls �in east-west orientation�, several �in north-south orientation�, �decorated coloured floor�, several �pillar bases�, and a �1.64-metre high decorated black stone pillar (broken) with yaksha figurines on four corners�. Now that I am sounding like a �running-dog of the VHP� to the �lunatic lefties�, let me quickly add that they also found �Arabic inscription of holy verses on stone�. But what many people have missed out on � due to bias or sloth � is that these are findings only from the period of May 22 to June 6. This is not the full list. If they read the earlier reports, they would also find listed several walls, a staircase, and two black basalt columns �bearing fine decorative carvings with two cross-legged figures in bas-relief on a bloomed lotus with a peacock whose feathers are raised upwards�.�



For good measure, we should also quote a Hindu nationalist�s observations. On the website of the National Volunteer Corps or RSS (www.rss.org, 24 June 2003), Chetan Merani writes: �The excavations so far give ample traces that there was a mammoth pre-existing structure beneath the three-domed Babri structure. Ancient perimeters from East to West and North to South have been found beneath the Babri fabrication. The bricks used in these perimeters predate the time of Babar. Beautiful stone pieces bearing carved Hindu ornamentations like lotus, kaustubh jewel, alligator facade, etc., have been used in these walls. These decorated architectural pieces have been anchored with precision at varied places in the walls. A tiny portion of a stone slab is sticking out at a place below 20 feet in one of the pits. The rest of the slab lies covered in the wall. The projecting portion bears a five-letter Dev Nagari inscription that turns out to be a Hindu name. The items found below 20 feet should be at least 1,500 years old. According to archaeologists about a foot of loam layer gathers on topsoil every hundred years. Primary clay was not found even up to a depth of 30 feet. It provides the clue to the existence of some structure or the other at that place during the last 2,500 years. More than 30 pillar bases have been found at equal spans. The pillar-bases are in two rows and the rows are parallel. The pillar-base rows are in North-South direction. A wall is superimposed upon another wall. At least three layers of the floor are visible. An octagonal holy fireplace (yajna kund) has been found. These facts prove the enormity of the pre-existing structure. (�) Moulded bricks of round and other shapes and sizes were neither in vogue during the middle ages nor are in use today. It was in vogue only 2,000 years ago. Many ornate pieces of touchstone (kasauti stone) pillars have been found in the excavation. Terracotta idols of divine figurines, serpent, elephant, horse-rider, saints, etc., have been found. Even to this day terracotta idols are used in worship during Diwali celebrations and then put by temple sanctums for invoking divine blessings. The Gupta and the Kushan period bricks have been found. Brick walls of the Gahadwal period (12th Century CE) have been found in excavations. Nothing has been found to prove the existence of residential habitation there. The excavation gives out the picture of a vast compound housing a sole distinguished and greatly celebrated structure used for divine purposes (�).�

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Post by surinder »

G Subramaniam wrote:Several Maratha rulers demolished mosques built over temples and restored the hindu temple

In Delhi, in 1780, the sikhs marched in, and demolished the mosque where Guru Tegh Bahadur was killed and built a Gurudwara on top of it
And thanks to fear of the sikhs, the muslims did not squawk
I think this is either the Sis Ganj or Bangla Sahid Gurudwara in Delhi

The sikhs also demolished the Shahidganj Mosque in Lahore ( where earlier several sikhs had been killed ) and built a gurudwara

Mosque demolition by hindus is associated with rebuilding temples
and mosque demolition by sikhs is associated with builing a gurudwara over a mosque where sikhs had been killed for refusing to convert to islam
It is my understanding that Sikhs and Marathas never really did a "reverse Islam" on Muslims. They did not destroy Mosques, nor force muslims to convert to Hinduism/Sikhism.

Baghel Singh (around middle of 18th century) attacked Delhi and defeated the Mughal King (Shah Alam). Lot of people have this false notion that it was the British who defeated the Mughals---Mughals were already defeated by the Marathas & Sikhs. Anyways, as part of the terms of peace treat, the Mughal King was forced to agree to making Gurudwaras right in the hear of Delhi. Baghel Singh kept 30,000 of his cavalry at the place now called Tis Hazari courts. He set about finding places associated with Sikh Gurus. The place where the 9th Guru, Guru Tegh Bahadur, was killed by Aurangzeb was already taken up by Muslims. Baghel Singh demolished that Mosque and made a Gurdwara. Muslims went to Shah Alam, but he conceded Sikh right to make a Gurudwara.

But apart from an exception or two, Sikhs did not destroy any mosques. The few they did destroy or stop service was more for psychological warfare. Did the Marathas destroy any mosque?
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Post by surinder »

Abhijit wrote:the genocide of Hindus and destruction of Hindu icons by islamic invaders of the past 1000+ years is something that has been swept under the rug by the sickular GoI over the last 50 years. I would venture to say that a majority of Hindus would be willing to forgive and forget as long as Indian Islam acknowledges that such killing and destruction happened, it happened under the explicit sanction of Islam as a religious war but denounces the past to assure us that it will never happen again. Not because the Hindus of today will turn the whole of India into Gujarat but because it was morally ethically and philosophically wrong and any ideology that sanctions such destruction is utterly renounced by Indian muslims. We cannot have a veneration of past and present islamic killers and expect the Hindus to accept it.

Until and unless such a renunciation is undertaken by Indian Islam, we are on the path of inevitable collision.
It is sad to see that the state of affairs hangs in a precarious balance on the ability of the Muslims to accept certain truths. There is something pathetic about a group of people with a chip on the shoulders who are eager to get acknowledgment of thier victimhood.

How about before we ask Muslims to acknowledge the truth, we do some acknowledging of truths ourselves. Hindus need to first and foremost get the facts of actrocities clear and be willing to do something to get the truth in the open. Why hide behind the fact that we have been ruled by pseudo-seculars and communists. Who votes them there? The 80% Hindus are unable to vote in a government that will do it.

How about asking the question how the Hindus lost to the Muslims? How and why the sword and sufi worked to convert so many? How come the temples were destroyed? Why were they not retaken? What was the weakness in the Hindus that caused their destruction? What can the Hindus do now?
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Post by archan »

surinder wrote:Why hide behind the fact that we have been ruled by pseudo-seculars and communists. Who votes them there? The 80% Hindus are unable to vote in a government that will do it.

How about asking the question how the Hindus lost to the Muslims? How and why the sword and sufi worked to convert so many? How come the temples were destroyed? Why were they not retaken? What was the weakness in the Hindus that caused their destruction? What can the Hindus do now?
I guess you already know the answers. Hindus as such have not been a united entity. The reason is the very fact that Hinduism is not a religious ideology that could bind them together. Instead Hindutva primarily deals with the relation of the individual with the Supreme, it is a spiritual path as opposed to being a social set of guidelines. That is my understanding, so far. And I could be wrong.
"What can the Hindus do now?"
I feel that the so-called Hindu nationalists are trying to make 'Hinduism' what it never was. It cannot be an alternative to say, Islam or Christianity as such since it is inherently different. I am not intellectually mature enough to envision this but from my vague ideas I think what Hindus need to do now is to solidify their identities as Bhartiyas - the people belonging to a land rich in so many respects that it has since centuries attracted, and continues to attract greedy eyes. A Hindu identity that should not be an anti-anything. It should be a positive image that links each and every one from Kashmir to Kanyakumari to one and only one entity - Bharat.
Hindus have never voted together, why? maybe because they never see all the other 'varieties' of Hindus (belonging to different cultural lineage, speaking different language than theirs, etc) as being under one umbrella of Hindutva, so to say. I think Hindus need to read their true history (and let it be taught in our schools). They need to figure their place in the grand scheme of things in the world. Then they need to figure out what can be done to improve it, solidify it and make it a dominant force. They need to see that common thread linking them. I have heard comments on that rediff trash-magnet called "readers' opinions" of the tone that "It is the South that is driving India as of now" "You are an uneducated Bihari" and so on. And these are "educated" (or simply literate) people! they just don't see the common thread. Some of us who can see it or at least envision it should probably think about spreading the word.
No political party is perfect, but to be governed by a coalition like UPA is a shame IMO. I think parties like BJP have the ability to find a broader base among Hindus if only they look beyond immediate political gains and see the big picture.I know Sena is not much aligned with BJP anymore but for the sake of example, look at the current row over Amitabh Bachchan allegedly promoting "UP culture" in Maharashtra. How can a "leader" say such bigoted thing and still have a political future is beyond me. Many Hindus cannot align themselves with people who would, say, damage national property (Wankhede pitch) so that their wish is granted (TSP team not play there). We need leaders to look beyond the factions and think Hindutva - the real Hindutva, not the political vote-getting tool. I know my thoughts are fuzzy but as discussion progresses on this topic, I will probably see it more clearly.
In summary, I think we need to define clearly what it means "to be a Hindu". Then maybe the common man will understand why there is a need to know that they are Hindu and be proud of their heritage. As of now, most Hindus think that they are Hindus because they were born in Hindu families and believe in the different Gods they have been taught to believe in since childhood. They need to realize that that is not the only thing that makes them different from non-Hindus.
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Post by SSridhar »

shiv wrote:Unfortunately, when you apply the same argument "face up to history" - it means that Islamic hordes did actually destroy temples and build mosques in their places.
Romila Thapar, Irfan Habib, N.Ram and similar Leftists & JNU-types have argued that destruction of temples was to loot the jewellery and other riches stored there rather than to destroy them based purely on religious grounds. They also argue that even Hindu kings have fought against each other and done the same thing to temples.
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Post by Sanku »

Acharya wrote:
shiv wrote:Two points:
While absence of firm archaeological proof is not an indicator that a temple did not exist there, imagine the effect of finding a proper temple there?
Shiv, Yours is an old argument. The data and facts have moved forward now and the temple authenticity and historicity has been established.
Uh; Shiv; why will finding a actual temple there be such a big deal? No doubt you have been to Delhi and have seen numerous examples of what is called "rubble architecture" you have plaques praising the Islamic hordes as it being the new great contribution in the field.

As if breaking a beautiful piece chandelier and using the glass pieces to cover the table in a irregular fashion is great architecture.

That kind of thing is easy to see in most places so often that you get inured to it.

By and large in N India people accept the tell tale more than evidence; folks have a healthy cynicism of "evidence" and prefer to trust the civilizational memes; if they believe that there was a temple; from civilizational memes thats more likely to be official history.

So the folks who believe that there was a temple and more specifically a Ram temple will believe that. Those who dont want to will manufacture more doubts a la R Thapar (on the lines of what SSridhar posted above)

Its only the tiny Mackualized but not completely minority (such as us) that get heeby jeebies on how much proof exists but is completely overlooked so easily by all manners of people.

Overall as Indians -- We just dont care; we are too dhimmified.
:lol:
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Post by archan »

Even if there was a temple in Babur's time, India was politically not what it is now, and is culturally different in many ways than it was then. The Indian Constitution as we see and revere today - was not there. Now demolishing a religious place in a secular nation (or attempting to be secular) nation is uncalled for. My opinion is that Hindutva should not be portrayed by a bunch of aggressive fanatics like the ones who broke all laws and went on to demolish the structure. On the other hand, Hindutva should also not be a dharma of the dhimmis. A clear line needs to be drawn somewhere.
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Post by svinayak »

archan wrote:Even if there was a temple in Babur's time, India was politically not what it is now, and is culturally different in many ways than it was then. The Indian Constitution as we see and revere today - was not there. Now demolishing a religious place in a secular nation (or attempting to be secular) nation is uncalled for. My opinion is that Hindutva should not be portrayed by a bunch of aggressive fanatics like the ones who broke all laws and went on to demolish the structure. On the other hand, Hindutva should also not be a dharma of the dhimmis. A clear line needs to be drawn somewhere.
Hindu religion( Sanathana Dharma) cannot be under the blackmail of nation state or its ideology such as secularism.
The religious place Ayodhya is not used by any community and it is an ancient structure of historic heritage.
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Post by JCage »

archan wrote:Even if there was a temple in Babur's time, India was politically not what it is now, and is culturally different in many ways than it was then. The Indian Constitution as we see and revere today - was not there. Now demolishing a religious place in a secular nation (or attempting to be secular) nation is uncalled for. My opinion is that Hindutva should not be portrayed by a bunch of aggressive fanatics like the ones who broke all laws and went on to demolish the structure. On the other hand, Hindutva should also not be a dharma of the dhimmis. A clear line needs to be drawn somewhere.
Yeah sure. By the same standards, then all acts of omission and commission get a whitewash even when they impact what people today feel and perceive. This splitting hairs and parsing statements wont work. Those folks who broke down the structure had every right to recover their religious place and India's politically expedient "secular constitution" matters little when its used as a tool to support votebanking and actions directed squarely against hindu interests. A cobbled together quasi british document, a bunch of appeals to emotion about "uncalled for", and you play judge and jury?

Your statements about the workers being "aggressive fanatics" themselves reek of dhimmitude. Who are you to decide who is a fanatic and who is not? Just because you, in your dhimmi glory can live with islamic atrocities protected under a misguided veneer of secularism, that doesnt mean others will and should. I dont even care about Ayodhya, but can easily recognise it as an indelible symbol of imperial Islam and the brutality with which it treated and continues to treat non Muslims while the Muslim community is complicit in a code of silence whenever these issues are raised.

Here we have an edifice of imperial Islam, and it must be respected despite being built on a temple because India is trying to be a secular nation. Uh sure. Why dont the muslims hand it over and other such temples to the hindu community then? What of the onus on the Muslim community to strike a new beginning in this new India and do the right thing, as compared to the selfish, parochial and self serving approach which they have chosen and almost always continue to do so. "Whats mine is mine, and whats yours is mine as well. And oh, lets not talk about how I got this since it offends me and you know how I am when I am offended". And of course, we have folks like you come in to put the hoary stamp of secularism around it and anyone who does different is an aggressive fanatic!

This is no ordinary temple or issue. Would sure love to see how many Muslims hand over Charar e Sharief if tomorrow a Hindu army violates, murders, pillages the area, razes it and builds a temple instead. And even if it were any simple temple, why should Hindus always turn the other cheek? They were the ones who were victimized and they have every right to take their religious places back.

Those "aggressive fanatics" and similar reactions by their peers is why India is not a fully blown dhimmi nation today. Their idealogical predecessors were the ones who fought as "aggressively and fanatically" to preserve their way of life and succeeded. As regards India not being politically what it is today then, it is an irrelevant red herring at best, and a cruel joke otherwise. Yes, hindus were brutalized with cavalier disregard then, and in these free times, hindus continue to be brutalized and those who recover their own historical place of worship are aggressive fanatics. We cant even discuss the same. Wonderful. From full blown dhimmi status to a light Islamic state where even a simple fact of recovering a Hindu temple is tut tutted upon. Why, those bad aggressive Hindus.

Calling them epithets is silly and to seek some mythical fine line between being dhimmis and being emphatic is similarly pointless. What you seek in your harebrained nitpicking is some academic bunch of sissies who go around talking of a hindutva which continues to dominate the lecture tour while muslims continue to do whatever they feel, with zero care or regard for other religions. If this is not full blown dhimmitude, then I wonder what is. You have zero empathy for the folks who were outraged at the Ayodhya issue and dismiss them as aggressive fanatics, while "secularism" matters more to you. It is this shameless one sided expectation from Hindus that has made a mockery out of the term. Muslims can get away with anything, including retaining mosques which were built on violence and captured Hindu temples...thats ok.

If a temple was destroyed and a mosque was built on the same, and if it is a prominent bone of contention, it has to be returned. Modern India should not accept these icons of Islamic depravity in a misguided fit of tolerance or secularism or whatever euphemisms you choose to disguise them under.
Last edited by JCage on 11 Feb 2008 19:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Sanku wrote:No doubt you have been to Delhi and have seen numerous examples of what is called "rubble architecture"
The Qutb Minar complex is one such perfect example...

Which brings us to another question, how does an awakened Hindu tour Delhi and many parts of the north without seething with anger and/or overcome with emotion?
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Post by JCage »

ShauryaT wrote:
Sanku wrote:No doubt you have been to Delhi and have seen numerous examples of what is called "rubble architecture"
The Qutb Minar complex is one such perfect example...

Which brings us to another question, how does an awakened Hindu tour Delhi and many parts of the north without seething with anger and/or overcome with emotion?
He should slap himself twice since the temple is still visible and that would offend pious muslims, and he should rush to a narrow dark place to pray, after eating a plate of rice. Hindus arent allowed to feel, they have to be pious saints whom it is ok to rape, murder and plunder. Otherwise, they are aggressive fanatics. And oh, to do otherwise is to disrespect the constititution.
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