saptarishi wrote:usual pakistani habbit,fire first the get killedchackojoseph wrote:I heard that Pakis are now admitting first fire and want a formal apology. (isn't it already offered?) Pakis regularly fire across the border in Afghanistan and US has been killing them for some time.
It seems they were pleading to stop. They first fire with mortars and heavies and expect not to be killed. 
Being blasted out of the sky of course 
To which Musharraf (main bhi kabhi general tha) has responded thusly:P Chitkara wrote:As per the latest reports Kayani stated “It would have been better if the PAF could have also participated in the response.” (to NATO strike taking 28 mujahids to their hoories)
And he has confirmed that after all the huffing and puffing of "hitting back" and otherwise throwing a hissy fit, it all comes down to:While Musharraf emphasized that the Pakistan Air Force is “very much capable” of monitoring the country’s airspace, he admitted that radar coverage along the Pak-Afghan border is not as strong as Pakistan’s eastern frontier. “Our radar coverage on the western border is not as much as it is on the east. The east has full radar coverage,” he said, adding that there exist dead zones in the mountainous region in the west where there is no radar coverage.
He also explained that the response to an airspace violation cannot always be immediate since military channels have to follow a procedure whereby a request must be forwarded to air channels before any action is taken. “We need to think about how capable we are of a military response. We need to evaluate if a military response will be in our favour,” he said, adding that the pros and cons of such action need to weighed before making a move.
Allah ke naam pe de!When asked what diplomatic and military response he would have deemed appropriate in the aftermath of the attack if he were in power, Musharraf said that Pakistan’s response to the situation was fitting. “How can we go to the Bonn conference when our nation is infuriated?” he asked, adding that other diplomatic moves such as bringing the incident to the attention of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) and United Nations (UN) would also be appropriate.
He also said that monetary compensation for the deceased soldiers should be demanded, and other demands should be negotiated with Nato and America.
Within the ISI, America’s most reliable ally has been the spy service’s division known as the T Wing.
“We’ve been trying desperately for the last 10 years to build elements of Pakistani society and its national security bureaucracy to support U.S. counterterrorism efforts in the region,”
According to the same officials, America also has embraced and funded units connected to Pakistan’s Interior Ministry, particularly in the corruption-ridden megalopolis of Karachi, where the local police are not considered reliable counterterrorism partners.
World Bank's 'Silk Route initiative'rohitvats wrote:There is a road planned in North-West to South-East direction which will connect Tajikistan and Chitral in Pakistan. This will pass through Wakhan corridor.
An angry Pakistan on Thursday slammed a U.S. move to freeze aid worth $700 million, saying it was “not based on facts and takes a narrow vision of the overall situation”, in the latest sign of the fraying bilateral ties.
“We believe that the move in the U.S. Congress is not based on facts and takes a narrow vision of the overall situation,” said Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit.
In response to questions at a weekly news briefing, he said that “wrong conclusions are unavoidable” because of the approach adopted by the U.S.
The U.S. House of Representatives on Wednesday passed legislation to freeze aid worth $700 million and the Senate is expected to vote on the measure this week.
The bill will freeze the aid pending assurances that Pakistan has taken steps to thwart militants who use improvised explosive devices against U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan.
If the legislation becomes law, the U.S. will work with the Pakistan government to see how it can fulfil the requirements, U.S. State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said.
Pakistan shut down NATO supply routes to neighbouring Afghanistan and forced U.S. personnel to leave Shamsi air base, reportedly used by CIA-operated drones, after a NATO air strike killed 24 soldiers on November 26.
Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani has ordered the framing of “new terms of engagement” for the U.S., NATO and ISAF.
Mr. Basit said an envoys' conference held during December 12-13 to frame recommendations for the new terms of engagement had discussed the possible impact of cutting off of U.S. and foreign aid.
Please. Not here. This is benis material and you have posted this old video on two threads.Manish_Sharma wrote:
Maharaja Ranjit Singh was right to make porkis wear salwars, they can't handle men's clothing:
November 13, 2011, 9:59 AM
According to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) it has flown more than 5,500 strike sorties over the country’s troubled tribal regions since May 2008. In a rare glimpse into Pakistan’s attempt to counter domestic terrorism from the air, the commander of the PAF described some lessons learned to the Air Chiefs Conference here in Dubai on Saturday.
The need for good airborne reconnaissance was paramount, said Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleiman. When the Pakistan army launched large-scale operations in the remote Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) in August 2008, the PAF had to rely on Google Earth imagery when planning air support missions, Suleiman admitted.
However, by the time that the army was ready to move against insurgents in the Swat Valley in May 2009, the PAF had acquired Goodrich DB-110 electro-optical reconnaissance pods for its F-16 fighters, together with the same company’s ground station for imagery exploitation. Intelligence analysts could now identify terrorist training camps, ammunition dumps and command and control facilities. Some of these targets were well camouflaged, and protected by bunkers, Suleiman noted.
Two days before the ground offensive was launched, the PAF launched a series of interdiction missions, and followed up with close air support throughout the six-month campaign. From the imagery collected by the PAF, the army was also able to identify suitable landing zones for the airdrops of commandos.
In these mountainous regions, airpower was best delivered from medium altitude by fast jets, Suleiman said. “The army has lost many attack helicopters due to their operating limitations at high elevations, and [due to] hostile fire,” he noted. Fighters could also react more quickly to developing combat situations.
When the army turned its attention to South Waziristan in October 2009, the PAF conducted a seven-day campaign in advance. By now, the service had added FLIR Systems Star Safire III EO/IR sensor ball to one of its C-130 transports. Army staff on board the C-130 was able to track the movement of terrorists at night, and radio maneuvering instructions to soldiers on the ground.
The PAF has completely overhauled its tactics and techniques for the conduct of irregular warfare, Suleiman said. All of the squadrons were put through a training program over a four-month period. Laser-guided bombs have been used in 80 percent of the PAF strikes, the PAF chief revealed. Avoiding collateral damage was a primary concern, he explained, “especially since we were engaging targets within our own country. We engage isolated structures only, away from populated areas.”
More than 10,600 bombs have been dropped, and 4,600 targets destroyed, he said. The PAF has flown more than 500 F-16 sorties with the DB-110 pod, and 650 with the Star Safire EO/IR sensor on the C-130.
The statistics may impress but while Suleiman claimed that “we’ve broken the back of militants in the FATA,” he also warned that offensive military engagement could only accomplish “10 to 15 percent” of the task of pacifying the tribal areas. The rest must be done by dialogue, winning hearts and minds through economic development of these very poor regions, he said.
In his presentation, Pakistan’s Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleiman did not mention the Selex Galileo Falco UAV. However, Pakistan was the first customer for the reconnaissance drone, which carries the Anglo-Italian company’s own electro-optical/infrared sensor ball. Suleiman later told AIN that there had been problems with the UAV’s data link, caused partly by terrain masking. “Then we put in a relay station, and started flying it higher, so now we are using it more,” he continued.
Air Force spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Jeffry Glenn said the United States delivered 1,000 MK-82 500-pound bombs to Pakistan last month, and was considering additional requests for those bombs and more laser-guided tail kits.
Glenn said an initial batch of 700 GBU-12 and 300 GBU-10 Paveway laser-guided bomb kits built by Lockheed and Raytheon Co (RTN.N) would be delivered to Pakistan this month, allowing the Pakistani air force to outfit the MK-82 bombs delivered last month with sophisticated technology that allows better targeting of the weapons.
Aditya G wrote: Coming to the numbers quoted:
- 10,600 bombs
- 4,600 targets
- 80% use of LGBs
Assuming 2 bombs per target, it means that PAF has dropped 1840 LGBs (0.8 x 2300). I find that a stretch as the intensity matches US/NATO numbers in Afghanistan:
http://www.snappingturtle.net/flit/arch ... 04_13.html
Moreover that would mean they are consuming their inventory very quick:
Air Force spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Jeffry Glenn said the United States delivered 1,000 MK-82 500-pound bombs to Pakistan last month, and was considering additional requests for those bombs and more laser-guided tail kits.
Glenn said an initial batch of 700 GBU-12 and 300 GBU-10 Paveway laser-guided bomb kits built by Lockheed and Raytheon Co (RTN.N) would be delivered to Pakistan this month, allowing the Pakistani air force to outfit the MK-82 bombs delivered last month with sophisticated technology that allows better targeting of the weapons.
Aditya >10,000 bombs and >80% LGB mean 8000 LGBs. Not 1800Aditya G wrote:Finally PAF has come out with details on their ops in NWFP:
http://www.ainonline.com/?q=aviation-ne ... -militants
November 13, 2011, 9:59 AM
According to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) it has flown more than 5,500 strike sorties
<snip>
Laser-guided bombs have been used in 80 percent of the PAF strikes, the PAF chief revealed.
More than 10,600 bombs have been dropped, and 4,600 targets destroyed, he said. The PAF has flown more than 500 F-16 sorties with the DB-110 pod, and 650 with the Star Safire EO/IR sensor on the C-130.[/b]
I agree. Typical Paki exaggeration to try and get the US to reimburse them for weapons they've not used. I read the report and immediately thought that the figures seem way too high to be able to believe. Typical Paki lies.shiv wrote:Aditya I think the Pakis may be lying, as usual. The news says 5500 strikes and >80% LGB. Even that works out to >4000 LGBs.
It concerns me that Pakis have now got LGBs from the US and are getting good target practice on their Islamic brothers, but I am skeptic about the numbers.
If the numbers delivered to the Packis from the US are accurate , I bet they have not used them and are saving them for India. They are lying. You can be sure of that. And the Americans believe those lies as usual and this lie is for American consumption.
Just like a Pakistani statement always has more lies than is apparent, Americans are showing more stupidity than is apparent. Ultimately, India stands to lose its children.
FLIR Systems Star Safire III EO/IR sensor ball to one of its C-130 transports
hnair if your hostel warden, whom you look up to for advice and help, tells you that the cleaning lady should be wooed because she is there to give every hostel boy sexual pleasure they will do that even if they end up getting gonorrhea as a result.hnair wrote:FLIR Systems Star Safire III EO/IR sensor ball to one of its C-130 transports
WTF is wrong with Americans? Why are they integrating these sort of things for pakis? If we are going to use the C130Js with these same balls (and they are sort of the primary sensor for those kind of missions - peak hugging etc), it is a no-ball. Thanks to pakis, the Chinese will know what to expect from these crafts. This is mindless stupidity of khan and they should be asked hard questions on the capabilities.
Not true. The Baloch represent less than 1% of the Pak Army. If you are basing your 10% number based on the Baluch Regiment, then its an archaic nomenclature. Even in British Raj, the Baluch Regiment recruited mainly from Punjabi Muslims and UP Hindus; nowadays its mainly Pakjabis and Pathans. The Balochs generally prefered to enlist in Arab armies, and many still do.gakakkad wrote:Baloch represents only 3.6% of the Pakistani population, but 10% of army. How did that happen? Are they forced into the army?
according to their ISPR they did induct 5,000 Baloch cadets during their last "long course"ParGha wrote:Not true. The Baloch represent less than 1% of the Pak Army. If you are basing your 10% number based on the Baluch Regiment, then its an archaic nomenclature. Even in British Raj, the Baluch Regiment recruited mainly from Punjabi Muslims and UP Hindus; nowadays its mainly Pakjabis and Pathans. The Balochs generally prefered to enlist in Arab armies, and many still do.gakakkad wrote:Baloch represents only 3.6% of the Pakistani population, but 10% of army. How did that happen? Are they forced into the army?
Looks like unlike us, Pakis have some formidable Artillery and over the last 5 years has significantly added to thier capabilities while we are blundering from one decision to anther.Singha wrote:I was mistaken - it was nexter (giat - same guys who supply our LCH/Rudra cannon) who have sold them 155mm plant.
from a defencenews.com article. I think the Khan supplied them ~100 M109A5 SP platforms under GOAT. they have already have had 100-150 earlier from the 80s.
Pakistan Pushes Artillery Upgrade Program
By Usman Ansari
Published: 10 October 2011
ISLAMABAD - Pakistan is consolidating its howitzer inventory around the 155mm round and increasing its MRLS fleet as it strives to boost the lethality of its artillery against India.
Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad and South Asia analyst, said the Army has been modernizing its artillery in recent years as it plans to increase fully mechanized formations.
"There was no apocalyptic moment; it came about because of a normal reassessment of tactics and strategy consistent with the doctrine of 'hold and strike.' For rapid, if deliberately limited, advance, [self propelled] artillery is vital," Cloughley said.
The main acquisitions are at least 297 M-109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers that have been supplied since 2007 under a $56 million deal made in 2006, and local production of the Turkish MKEK Panter towed 155mm howitzers, by Heavy Industries Taxila's Heavy Mechanical Complex, after 12 were delivered for evaluation in 2007.
Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the 155mm Panter howitzer has been a substantial improvement over existing guns.
He cites a combination of the Turkish Panter, with the American AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder and Chinese SLC-2 radars, as improving the accuracy of Pakistan's long-range artillery "under a variety of weather conditions at all ranges."
Cloughley highlights a mid-2008 deal with Nexter for the production of 155mm artillery rounds, plus the acquisition of 10 Turkish artillery simulators, which began to enter service with the School of Artillery in 2008 in this regard.
Investment also has been made in long-range MLRS capability. This included evaluation and then procurement of 36 Chinese AR1A/A100E 300mm MLRSs - first displayed to the public during last year's New Resolve military maneuvers.So this is what the NASR is
"Even though [the Army has] a wide array of short-range ballistic missiles, it wanted a larger caliber long-range MRLS capable of firing smart submunitions," Khan said.
This led to the evaluation of the Chinese Wei Shi series of MRLS and signing of a contract with China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp. in 2009 to procure the NORINCO-developed 300mm MLRS, he said.
The system differs from previous Chinese 300mm MLRS types that were modeled on the Russian Smerch rocket artillery by having 10 instead of 12 tubes. However, the new arrangement of two five-tube pods allows for faster reloading.
Khan said the Army is "very pleased" with the system, and additional numbers are being procured. Having hitherto only imported the system, Khan said, the Army would like to shift to indigenous production.
While the Army is "reasonably satisfied with its artillery assets," Cloughley said, the artillery modernization program is ongoing and the Army wants "more, and better, equipment."
This could lead to a future order for about 90 NORINCO SH-1 155mm self-propelled howitzers, two of which were tested in 2008, he said.
Being a more deployable six-wheel-drive platform, the SH-1 could considerably boost the Army's ability to deter Indian aggression in Kashmir, where road improvements have been undertaken, Khan said.
The Army's artillery in Kashmir, especially in more remote locations, has been transported by helicopter and the ammunition by mule train. A wheeled, self-propelled howitzer would therefore be welcome, he said.
Further developments may also be forthcoming for rocket artillery. Cloughley said there is an indigenous MLRS program called Azar, which he said is "similar to the Chinese Type 81" 122mm MLRS. Pakistan's current 122mm Grad-type MLRS is an indigenously produced variant of the North Korean BM-11, and Pakistan Ordnance Factories has developed a high-explosive 122mm rocket called Yarmuk for the system.
Another area Cloughley cites that has not received much attention is the need for a self-propelled mortar system to equip the mechanized infantry formations and provide firepower to complement the self-propelled howitzers. Improving the self-propelled howitzer assets has been the primary goal, however, so little has been done to boost mortar capabilities
point to note is we require 7 times lesser nukes to wipe them out. we dont have much work to do if in case full fledged war broke out. how many nukes we will really need? i think its pointless to compare the numbers.Lots of people on the forum are very complacent about it. . But I feel that this makes it very difficult for IAF to get Air superiority over Pak airspace. While our Netas sleep Pakis have rapidly upgraded themselves. a Country with 7 times smaller and 6 times lesser population should have atleast 6 times lesser Nukes and capable aircraft to have conventional balance.
i agree with you.but their upgrades and kit are mostly free from the two sugar daddies. we have to pay for ours and worry about development as well - something the PA has never burdened itself with.
a country with the paki size of population and problems, if run as a democracy can never have as large a armed forces if they had to buy or make their stuff for real money or balance with development.
...
According to some translations floating around, the article cites a “Western diplomat” claiming that former Pakistani President Pervez told US officials that Pakistan had developed “among the world’s smartest nuclear tactical devices.”
...
A few weeks after his visit, Pakistan tested a short-range artillery rocket, Nasr. In case you had any doubt, the Pakistan’s official press release stated that the Nasr “carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield.”
Now, of course, maybe the Nasr is 30 centimeters in diameter (I certainly am not/not claiming to be able to eyeball rocket dimensions to within a few centimeters) or Pakistan just made a really little warhead.
I really wonder whether Pakistan could develop such a small warhead with any confidence. The general view has been that Pakistan would probably need testing to develop a miniaturized plutonium implosion device, to say nothing of the sort of boosted little devil we are talking about.
...
We had a long discussion about this on BRF maybe a year ago after Nasr was tested.Aditya G wrote:http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archiv ... #more-2126
...
According to some translations floating around, the article cites a “Western diplomat” claiming that former Pakistani President Pervez told US officials that Pakistan had developed “among the world’s smartest nuclear tactical devices.”
...
A few weeks after his visit, Pakistan tested a short-range artillery rocket, Nasr. In case you had any doubt, the Pakistan’s official press release stated that the Nasr “carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield.”
Now, of course, maybe the Nasr is 30 centimeters in diameter (I certainly am not/not claiming to be able to eyeball rocket dimensions to within a few centimeters) or Pakistan just made a really little warhead.
I really wonder whether Pakistan could develop such a small warhead with any confidence. The general view has been that Pakistan would probably need testing to develop a miniaturized plutonium implosion device, to say nothing of the sort of boosted little devil we are talking about.
...