Bharat Rakshak

A reading of Goethe’s Faust will put to rest the low IQ debate of arts vs sciences.

The reading itself is challenging. I never got around to what it was all about!

I think we are approaching the issue of humanities in Indian education system with wrong set of parameters. IMO, the problem is not of IQ/analytical abilities/rigor. Also, it is not a question of science vs humanities. We need both. There is space for subjects which will not approach the level of rigor and analytical purity of math/physics, but are still useful. That is not to say that their current practice cannot be made more scientific and rigorous. What stops them from being more like that are the institutions where these are taught, and there lies the problem.

The fields we call humanities and social sciences have been dominated by western constructs in India. The colonial government supplanted existing Indian philosophical traditions, gurukuls, social science and economic thought with a western viewpoint, which has continued in our universities. There hasn't been much work to revive and approach these subjects from an Indian point of view. Being 'humanities' these fields will always be biased by the humans working in them and their views, which are currently western. I don't think anyone here will have a problem if say someone from JNU/IIT humanities dept was working on application of Arthashastra on post-independence Indian polity with as much rigor as possible. Humanities / social sciences / liberal arts can be used to further Indian interests like western countries use their own educational institutions to advance theirs. One example, I believe was once shared by Saurav Jha, was the contribution (or lack of) of Indian universities to Chinese language and philosophy, which can aid Indian foreign policy objectives by understanding and monitoring China better.

The issue is that humanities departments being western in thought and outlook, are breeding ground of anti-India activities. What we need to do is to Indianize these departments and make sure that they approach studies with Indian and India-centric viewpoints, not western. We need to encourage original thought and research instead of regurgitating whatever came up in west. Humanities / liberal arts / social sciences are irreplaceable for some key national interests like foreign policy, economy, education. We cannot do away with them, but need to improve and Indianize them. Also, we need to attract better talent for these crucial fields, which can be addressed by cross-pollination with sciences/tech fields in a multi-disciplinary university.

Vayutuvan wrote: ↑12 Sep 2023 03:54

Cyrano wrote: ↑11 Sep 2023 13:21 IITs getting into Humanities would have been justified if they approached these subjects with a scientific method and data driven approach. Instead they have debased themselves - it appears to me - and partake in the collective guilt narrative and make amends by accepting irrational and anti-national scum in their midst and by giving them a level of legitimacy that erodes their own.

This. That said, maybe this is how IITs can become more like MIT. BITS Pilani has bridged that gap. They have good humanities departments too, IIRC.

IITs have to become more like UCB, UIUC, UMichigan, UTA, GeorgiaTech, UVA, OSU, Purdue, PennState. Many US public unversities are no slouches in Engineering/Technology as well as Economics/Business/Law/Humanities.

Vayutuvan -ji,

Multiple posts above, so will collate thoughts and respond. This one is closer to me personally, so here goes:

Having studied in both IIT and UT Austin (and having observed MIT / Stanford / CMU / Caltech at close quarters), these are apples and oranges.

(1) The IITs are primarily an undergraduate institution. Undergraduate are razor-sharp due to JEE-filtering (at least 20 years ago) and IQ-wise are significantly superior to the Graduate population. Sounds very biased / crude / uncouth / politically incorrect...but it is the brutal truth. For what it's worth, even amongst the Undergraduates the CS and top half of EE departments are some of the smartest people in India whereas the same cannot be said for Civil and Metallurgy

(2) There is a huge capability spread amongst the Undergraduates in UT Austin due to the TX Top-10% guaranteed admission scheme wherein top 10% of TX high schools would get admission into UT Austin. This means that the top 10% Desi & Chinese kids in Plano & Frisco are considered equally admission worthy as the top 10% African American and Mexican kids in South Dallas & Garland. While this makes sense from a social-justice point of view, this Undergraduate pool cannot compete with the IIT Undergraduate pool

(3) On the other hand, when it comes to Graduate studies, there is no comparison. UT Austin will blow any of the IITs out of the water. The professors are research focused, have significant research funding, have top notch equipment (very important for experimental work), have the best journal subscriptions, etc.

(4) When you look at Graduate studies in MIT / Stanford / CMU / Caltech, the disparity is even worse. The cream of the world's Undergrads go there for Graduate studies, the coursework is much harder than colleges like UT Austin, and the research output is at a different level altogether

When I visited IIT Bombay last year I found much better equipment and funding compared to 20 years ago. At least 4 of my batchmates are professors there.

But will the IITs ever become more like MIT? Or can the IITs aim a bit lower and become more like UCB, UIUC, UMichigan, UTA, GeorgiaTech, UVA, OSU, Purdue, PennState? Not a chance...the Undergraduate/Graduate mix and Funding is structurally not set up to succeed as a research university.

I am very skeptical of your statement that "BITS Pilani has bridged that gap"...I do not use the word laughable, but I'm curious to understand why you said what you said

And last but not the least...Humanities has nothing to do with the success or failure of any of these universities. If the Humanities departments (Liberal Arts, not fine Arts) were abolished overnight, life would still go on as normal

ernest wrote: ↑12 Sep 2023 09:45 The issue is that humanities departments being western in thought and outlook, are breeding ground of anti-India activities. What we need to do is to Indianize these departments and make sure that they approach studies with Indian and India-centric viewpoints, not western. We need to encourage original thought and research instead of regurgitating whatever came up in west. Humanities / liberal arts / social sciences are irreplaceable for some key national interests like foreign policy, economy, education. We cannot do away with them, but need to improve and Indianize them. Also, we need to attract better talent for these crucial fields, which can be addressed by cross-pollination with sciences/tech fields in a multi-disciplinary university.

+100...international relations, realpolitik, languages are key departments that need to be funded by MEA and the Strategic Community. Not Gender Studies / LGBTQIA+ Studies / Caste Conflict Studies

Ernest & Titash jis,
+108 !

@Titash and @Ernest jis,

I agree with you but for a few minor points. It is sort of depressing that IITs can never become broad based like large public unieversities in the US.

I forgot to mention a few more public universities. Let me correct that.

UNCCH, UMAAmherst, UMD, Texas A&M, Rutgers, SUNY system (Buffalo and Stonybrook), UCLA, UCSD, and few others I might be forgetting.

Its not just the fault of IITs. If Indian businesses spend more on cutting edge R&D, this will change.

Cyrano wrote: ↑13 Sep 2023 02:05 Its not just the fault of IITs. If Indian businesses spend more on cutting edge R&D, this will change.

Cyrano garu, that is there. But we are talking about more broad based education. That is why IITs cannot become like large public universities in the US. Nor can they become smaller STEM focused (yet with good humanities departments) universities like MIT, Stanford, CalTech, CMU.

It is not just private R&D spend that is an obstacle. It is more to do with JNU, AMY, Jamia Milia, UoH, Osmania, DU, Univ of Mumbai, Jadhavpur, have monopolized the Humanities faculties thus reducing the scope for IITs to expand into those areas and become more borad based, i.e. true, universities.

Because India adopted the British system of Universities with colleges spread all over, we are saddled with IITs/IIMs/JNU/Central universities. Only IISc comes anywhere close to a large US public university with 100s of majors being taught (and even researched).

Silos of STEM excellence.

@Titash ji, as for BITS, Pilani, please see the following. It was setup on the lines of an American university.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BITS_Pilani

In its formative years, the Institute tied up with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), Boston, USA.[23] It adopted semester system, modular structure of courses, continuous and internal evaluation, letter grading and the likes. It also created linkages with the industries which yielded structured “Practice School” as an integral component of education.[23]

In 1964, the Birla Colleges of Humanities, Commerce, Engineering, Pharmacy and Science were merged to form the Birla Institute of Technology & Science.The board provided direction in developing a curriculum, selecting equipment, upgrading the library and recruiting (and training) an Indian faculty. To quicken the pace of reform he convinced C. R. Mitra to be the new director of the institute. Mitra advocated a "practice school" internship program as a requirement for faculty and students. The Practice School Program is still a requirement for students in BITS.

According to Robert Kargon and Stuart Leslie:

BITS offered an opportunity to build a leading technological university in India responsive to India's goals, to produce practising engineers who will be in a position to graduate and to build industries in India, under Indian conditions. With its emphasis on the Practice School and ties to Indian industry, it helped educate Indian industrialists along with Indian engineers who would remain in India, in contrast to many other engineering colleges in India, most of whose graduates would leave the country after obtaining their basic engineering education. The Ford Foundation Evaluators...proudly noted that the Indian government, despite having given no direct financial support, was looking to BITS to provide a model for future development in education in engineering and science in India.[22]

Like Berkeley, BITS Pilani has also experienced student activism. BITS Pilani had to be shut down multiple times because of student strikes during 1973, 1980, and 1985.[25][26]

As far as I know - I got direct admission to BITS, Pilani as well IITD 5 year MSc in Physics back in 1975 due to my being a NSTSE sholar. The difference between BITS and IITD at that time was that I could have chosen a major after first two years (of 5 year) BTech program. But IITD, I had to committ to Physics. I did not join either oif the places for various reasons. I feel lucky that I didged IITD bullet. I found out later in life that I don't like Physics nor Engg. (though I ended up doing Electronics and Communication Engg.).

Somewtime soon after, BITS seems to have lost its way. Had IITs brodened their course offerings by 1975 timeframe (that is when Indian students started going to the US on scholarships), we would have had world class public universities just like what the US had and conitinue to have.

I firmly believe that US higher education is the best in the world bar none - not even the famed OxBridge comes close to the breadth (and depth in certain areas) these universities have.

Question: Is it too late for IITs to aspire for becoming like a large US public unversity? You seem to be saying that that we missed that train long back.

Vayutuvan wrote: ↑13 Sep 2023 01:47

I agree with you but for a few minor points. It is sort of depressing that IITs can never become broad based like large public unieversities in the US.

Definitely. The higher priority for IITs should be to improve their graduate and PhD programs.

To your point of being broad based, it is better to grow other centres like you also mentioned. IITs can continue to expand (and they have) in fields that complement/supplement engineering education. One example is bringing management programs on campus.

The other, where I have seen students benefit, was philosophy, psychology and language. These go well with AI and Machine Learning, bringing in more ways of thinking about the impact and history of the fields. A lot of students get exposed to works like Godel Escher Bach through this route and not computer science. From what I have seen, the impact a few philosophy courses have on research is related to the age of the field. New and emerging fields definitely benefit far more than established ones, as processes and applications are still emerging.

Personally for me, I loved reading philosophy of science and history of science, which actually sparked my interest in physics in the first place.

Another opinion I have is that you do not need professors trained in humanities with degrees in those fields to teach humanities in engineering institutions. A lot of engineering/science professors can teach these as well as any humanities professor. Many great professors have an interest in these fields, which coupled with real scientific experience is a great source of learning scientific thinking that students should be exposed to.

Taking it a step further, you don't even need professors or a humanities department. You can manage (or at least start ) with guest lectures/series from people doing great work (researchers) or simply really interested in a field and love teaching (like authors, youtubers) . Expose students to ideas and let them take it from there, self learning their way. A lot of educational institutions with a narrow original focus can use this model.

+108 Ernestji, I see an IIT STEM professor explain beautifully the astronomical concepts between Dhrik and Vakya panchanga and wonder why we can't seed tge humanities courses with an indic flavored curriculum which nurtures these? Another example is the professor who does research into Phytochemicals (combination of plant based chemicals and allopathic medicine to achieve better outcomes). Both from my alma mater IIT-M. I am sure we can find others in other IITs...

She might have a point there ?

Cyrano wrote: ↑29 Sep 2023 23:11 She might have a point there ?

With respect Cyrano-ji,

This family used to / still does run a Halwai shop.

No offence intended to the Halwai community, but the sole purpose of a for-profit University or Halwai is throughput and hence revenue

If you watch her son's promotional interviews on "Master's Union", its clear that he has the makings of a good sales executive / entrepreneur. A businessman he is but an Academic he is not. Likewise for the lady. they're purely in it for the cash, and the interview has to be seen in that perspective...its a for-profit promo video by a for-profit influencer

More attempts to sow division

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 362531.ece

Indian Govt to introduce One nation, one ID for all students across India: 'APAAR (Automated Permanent Academic Account Registry.) Card' under New Education Policy 2020, issues notice to all schools:

- It will be treated as a lifelong ID number and will track students' academic journey & achievements.
- It will be valid for every student from pre-primary to higher education.
-All government as well as private schools in India School will soon have their own unique identification number.

If you are an engineer and plan to work for betterment of healthcare - You have a special destination -
Introducing the Mehta Family Center for Engineering in Medicine, established with the aim of being a catalyst for biomedical researchers & engineers to work together on challenging medical problems.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1715002067931299940

Proud of Indian Educational System -- IITS... which keep on producing proud moments!

Two IIT alums are honored with one of the highest US Awards.
Ashok Gadgil and Subra Suresh - were honored by Biden with the country's highest scientific awards for their contribution to the field of science and technology.. Biden presented the prestigious White House National Medal for Technology and Innovation to Gadgil, a Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Civil and Environmental Engineering at UC Berkeley, on Tuesday for providing life-sustaining resources to communities around the world.

Congratulations!



(Pictured: Barry Barish and Subra Suresh)

Added later: Please see the xpost (link on top):

Here is correct image for Ashok Gadgil:
President Joe Biden awards the National Medal of Technology & Innovation to Ashok Gadgil in the East Room of the White House, Tuesday Oct. 24, 2023 in Washington.
Mr. Gadgil is a Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Civil and Environmental Engineering at UC Berkeley, who has developed low­-cost solutions to some of the developing world’s most intractable problems

^^ Just to add some clarity - Pictures in my post:
Top: Ashok Gadgil (Credit: IIT Kanpur SM) As said before he is a fellow alum from IIT Kanpur.

Prof Gadgil was presented the medal for providing life-sustaining resources to communities around the world. His innovative, inexpensive technologies help meet profound needs, from drinking water to fuel-efficient cookstoves.

A Distinguished Alumnus of Indian Institute of Technology Kanpur, Prof. Gaggil the Andrew and Virginia Rudd Family Foundation Chair Professor of Safe Water and Sanitation and a Professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering at UC Berkeley. He is a Faculty Senior Scientist and has served as director of the Energy and Environmental Technologies Division at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.

Congratulations!

Second photo is of Prof Barry Barish ( Nobel Prize, LIGO - See physics dhaga ) & Prof Subra Suresh taken from Caltech' SM. Prof Subra Suresh is graduate of IIT Madras.

I am glad for programs like INSPIRE-MANAK, under which these students were selected through a competition, organized by the Department of Science & Technology. The DST has been successfully participating in this exchange program since 2015.

Under the Japan-Asia Youth Exchange (SAKURA) Science High School Program, a group of 55 students studying in classes X, XI, and XII will be visiting Japan for a week. During their visit, they will gain exposure to Japan's science and technology institutes, including meetings with Japanese Nobel laureates.

Picture Credit: DST, India.

Jaipur Dialogues: Swaroop Sampat, Dr. C.K. Raju, Neeraj Atri, and Aditya Satsangi, moderator Sanjay Dixit engage in a discussion about the education system in India and how it can be more aligned with the country's culture and values.

^^^

Swaroop Sampat, Dr. C.K. Raju, Neeraj Atri, and Aditya Satsangi, moderator Sanjay Dixit engage in a discussion about the education system in India and how it can be more aligned with the country's culture and values...

I never heard of other participants, but "Dr C. K Raju" is a complete fraud. claim to know math, science etc, and claim to prove Einstein wrong .. but his writing is complete nonsense.
His writing about 'education' and what consist of 'mathematical reasoning' is absolute junk.

Unfortunately there are quite a few frauds in India like him which has followers. Many most academics, again unfortunately, ignore them but it is important to speak out... quoting Asimov

There is a cult of ignorance ... and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

Swaroop Sampath is a well known actress. I really liked her in Yeh Jo Hai Zindagi. She is also ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaroop_Sampat

Early life

Swaroop obtained a PhD. in Education[3] from the University of Worcester.[4] She did her doctoral thesis on using drama to enhance life skills in children with learning disabilities.[5]

She is eminently qualified to be a panel member on a panel on the state of education in India. IMHO

Amber G. wrote: ↑06 Nov 2023 19:11 I never heard of other participants, but "Dr C. K Raju" is a complete fraud. claim to know math, science etc, and claim to prove Einstein wrong .. but his writing is complete nonsense.
His writing about 'education' and what consist of 'mathematical reasoning' is absolute junk.

Unfortunately there are quite a few frauds in India like him which has followers. Many most academics, again unfortunately, ignore them but it is important to speak out... quoting Asimov

I find this vitriol counter productive. By the same token Glauber is a total fraud in Harvard and no physicist took a stand to recall his nobel and give it to E C G Sudarshan. There are many frauds in the US system. The entire Harvard school on mind studies are all frauds taking vipasana and claiming their own.

C K Raju did not steal other peoples work. He has different way of looking at things and the best way to counter them is to write a counter paper to show why he is wrong. I find the entire mathematical reasoning of the west as absolute junk and that is my opinion.

Dr. C. K. Raju has pointed out the absolute mess the Gregorian calendar has created by taking Jesus Christ (until as of today there is no evidence that a physical person existed, the biblical star configuration at birth points to 660 BC in modern day astronomy software) as the marker for a calendar. Surya Siddhanta uses some planet conjunction as a start point for the calendar. I don't see any Indian complaining about this arbitrary theology based stuff for a calendar. Math as taught in schools in India is complete disaster, more rote learning.

Sanjay Dixit talks about the 11 pictures of time of Dr. C. K. Raju

Does anyone have some more links to Hindi language science, nature or any kind of online documentaries please

Very happy that this is taking shape..(see some previous posts about MFCEM)
IIT Kanpur Inaugurates Mehta Family Centre for Engineering in Medicine

Indian Institute of Technology Kanpur (IITK) recently inaugurated the Mehta Family Centre for Engineering in Medicine (MFCEM), aiming to drive advancements in biomedical engineering innovations. Generously supported by Mr Rahul Mehta of the Bhupat and Jyoti Mehta Family Foundation, the centre commenced its operations with a two-day inaugural symposium starting on November 6, 2023. The symposium delved into topics such as Nanomedicine, genome editing-based approaches for disease therapies, and the application of digital medicine in understanding the brain’s reprogramming under conditions like Alzheimer’s.

The inaugural ceremony, presided over by Dr Abhay Karandikar, Secretary of the Department of Science & Technology, witnessed Mr Rahul Mehta articulating his vision for the centre—dedicated to propelling the next wave of healthcare innovation and fostering collaboration across engineering and medical disciplines. Dr. Shankar Subramaniam, a renowned figure in bioengineering at the University of California San Diego and an Advisor to the centre, graced the event. The inauguration included a ceremonial ribbon-cutting and unveiling of a memorial plaque symbolizing the Mehta family’s substantial contribution.

Just putting a request for some information and advise.

I am visiting India again on Oct for about 6- 8 weeks.

One of the tasks I have is to assist some of the poorer members of my family and ancestral village.
I refuse point blank to just give them money or assist in buying land.

They need skills training.

There are Industrial Training Institutes nearby, does anyone who knows about Punjab know of any other training organisations ?

Any advise is appreciated

UGC Chairman Dr. M. Jagadesh Kumar on Transforming Indian Education & Foreign Universities



// I am sorry, Dr. M. Jagadesh Kumar is not convincing about the changes to the Edu system he talks about. India has to re-examine this UGC system and its appointment of people at the very top. The entire syllabus of Indian EDU has to be overhauled, we are taught outdated stuff. There is no sense of inquiry in the subjects that are taught. None of the Indian universities are engaged in deep research in any field which we can claim as world leading.

Nalanda, Taxilla, Sharda universities set the standard ages ago. India led in each and every subject taught to the students who came from all over the world. India created many subjects like trignometry, arithmetic, botany, which are taught currently all over the world. Where are we today in leadership in Edu?

One outstanding feature of our education system is the madrassa schools with about 25% of the country's youngsters not following the national curriculum

Our education system needs the NEP implemented asap as the current graduate education (including those at IIT) is completely messed up IMHO. How do I know this? I do graduate hiring for my org and just at the start of the month I had a IIT Kanpur candidate tell me with a straight face that while she was extremely interested in AI/ML, she did not like or know statistics, probability and linear algebra !

The under grad batches have been spoiled thanks to the time when they cancelled the subjective type questions in selection: IIRC since 2006, the so called JEE Advanced is also an objective type tests - coupled with coaching classes from 7th standard and most kids lose interest in the subject and only see their graduation as a way to get a high paying job. There are exceptions of course, people like Tarun Mehta of Ather Energy fame come to mind but by and large, the undergrad students are burned out by the time they get to a top college, especially IITs.

The post graduate/phd students are quite good - most don't come with a IIT background so have a point or two to prove. The start up eco-system is well established and there are some great companies in the making! Will we become like UCB/MIT/Harward? I think that rests on GOI investing enough money and private industries scaling up and using the technologies developed here. At this point in time, from what I understand, GOI is actually very focused on spending money ONLY on things that will fetch immediate dividends and anything that has a *very* long gestation is not prioritised - can't reveal on an open forum but long term research *is* impacted due to GOI's priorities. The hope is that with Dr Abhay Karandikar (ex director, IIT Kanpur) becoming a secretary of DST, things will change for the better!

This is a remarkable piece .. worth reading,,Best institutes need to be careful.

My kids, many relatives and friends went to MIT- this is happening to some of the best universities in USA:
Lesson for India too..
Why I Quit My Dream Job at MIT

Sharing some exciting news:

New initiative for Indian diaspora in science & technology takes off!

22 stellar Indian origin scientists from across the world were offered the 1st VAIBHAV Fellowships & 2 emeritus scientists offered Distinguished VAIBHAV Fellowships by Hon'ble Minister for S&T Shri @DrJitendraSingh ji.

The VAIBHAV Fellowship program was launched by DST last year. The idea emerged from the VAIBHAV Summit inaugurated by the Hon’ble PM Shri @narendramodiji in October 2020 and envisages a collaboration between scientists of Indian Diaspora with Indian Higher Educational Institutions (HEIs), Universities and public funded Scientific Institutions.

The VAIBHAV Fellow would identify an Indian Institution for collaboration and may spend up to two months in a year for maximum 3 years.

National Science Day is celebrated each year on February 28 to commemorate the discovery of the Raman Effect by Sir CV Raman. It serves as a platform for various science communication and outreach programs, focusing on different themes each year.

The theme for this year’s National Science Day 2024, "Indigenous Technologies for Viksit Bharat", was released. It kick-started science communication activities based on the theme throughout the country, especially in schools & colleges. The activities would run up to the National Science Day celebrations on February 28. This theme-based science communication, carried out all over the country, will inspire students and young innovators.

Glad to hear:
UPGovt has allocated a fund of Rs 10 Crore in the recently announced State Budget 2024-25 for the Medical School at IIT Kanpur, expected to transform the state into a knowledge hub, while also ensuring ease-of-living.

Prof. Manindra Agrawal currently Professor in Computer Science and Engineering at IITK, has been appointed the Director of IIT Kanpur for a period of 5 years.

Manindra Agawal, as you know, was one of the authors of SUTRA - (For Covid mathematical Model)

Manindra is an exceptional computer scientist and mathematician with the highest global recognitions and has very substantial administrative experience as well. Received Padma Shri in 2013 !

Congratulations!

^^ Excellent news. I had the opportunity to meet Prof Manindra Agrawal in December at IIT K albeit in tragic circumstances as he had come to pay condolences on the sudden passing away of my cousin Prof Sameer Khandekar. Prof Agrawal is an amazing person and it is great news for IITK.

^^^ Thanks. xposting an interesting story - "Cracking the primes" ....How an young professor can inspire two undergraduate students.. And story becomes world famous..
<Cracking the Primes>

Condolences for passing away for Prof Sameer Khandekar. Om Shanti.