Let us Understand the Chinese

[paramu]

Bina,

Nice to have a lady on this board.

Welcome!

How are you so sure that Bina is a woman? Anybody can fake identity in internet

[Sanjay M]

http://news.google.com/news?client=fire ... 1228310965

sanjay, when you post a news link at least paste the header. other admins have also commented on this before.

[G Subramaniam]

Read the book of Legalism

This is the main book used by the chinese establishment
It is a no holds barred approach based on power and cunning

A more sophisticated form of Sharia

[Y I Patel]

What is the one imperative that all Chinese share, that they believe without thinking, that subliminally drives their reactions to every circumstance and contingency?

Let me clarify what I mean by an example close to home: that central imperative in modern India is internal unity. All Indians will accept without thinking that bad things happened to us and will happen to us when we were divided and fought among ourselves. India's democratically elected rulers will go to any length to protect internal unity. India's people will accept any measure, happily or unhappily, if they feel India's internal unity is at stake. This is the root sanskar that got burnt into our common psyche by centuries of foreign rule.

So what is the equivalent imperative for Chinese?

[Sanjay M]

How China's taking over Africa, and why the West should be VERY worried

dailymail.co.uk — With little fanfare, a staggering 750,000 Chinese have settled in Africa over the past decade. More are on the way. The strategy has been carefully devised by officials in Beijing, where one expert has estimated that China will eventually need to send 300 million people to Africa to solve the problems of over-population and pollution.

[svinayak]

What is the one imperative that all Chinese share, that they believe without thinking, that subliminally drives their reactions to every circumstance and contingency?

Let me clarify what I mean by an example close to home: that central imperative in modern India is internal unity. All Indians will accept without thinking that bad things happened to us and will happen to us when we were divided and fought among ourselves. India's democratically elected rulers will go to any length to protect internal unity. India's people will accept any measure, happily or unhappily, if they feel India's internal unity is at stake. This is the root sanskar that got burnt into our common psyche by centuries of foreign rule.

So what is the equivalent imperative for Chinese?

Welcome back

After talking to lot of chinese it is the physical geography that is most importance for the Chinese. Also as a society any chinese talking to other national and complaining about Chinese people are considered as traitors and ostracized.

[Y I Patel]

Thanks for the welcome, Acharya. Good to be back.

The question, in other words, is: what is the story they tell themselves? Something like: "We Chinese are xxx/did yyy that's why bad things happened to us"... What are they trying to compensate for through their intense nationalism? What special connotation does geography have for them that it does not for others? We were pretty bent out of shape when some guys climbed up on some God forsaken peaks, right?

Basically, the intent is to attribute personal qualities to a nation, just as we develop a "read" for a person that helps us understand and predict that person's actions.

[RayC]

Bina,

Nice to have a lady on this board.

Welcome!

How are you so sure that Bina is a woman? Anybody can fake identity in internet

You are right.

Only a oddball would have a woman's name.

Bina is a woman's name in India, right?

[Rahul M]

Bina is a woman's name in India, right?

well so is vina !

[RayC]

What is the one imperative that all Chinese share, that they believe without thinking, that subliminally drives their reactions to every circumstance and contingency?

Let me clarify what I mean by an example close to home: that central imperative in modern India is internal unity. All Indians will accept without thinking that bad things happened to us and will happen to us when we were divided and fought among ourselves. India's democratically elected rulers will go to any length to protect internal unity. India's people will accept any measure, happily or unhappily, if they feel India's internal unity is at stake. This is the root sanskar that got burnt into our common psyche by centuries of foreign rule.

So what is the equivalent imperative for Chinese?

Then to understand you must understand the ethonohistorical context of China and compare.

[RayC]

One has to understand the Chinese concept of strategy.

To the Chinese military mind and strategic thinking, politics is the soul of Chinese strategy. They look at contradictions as competitive and synthesise it balancing the international factors with the Chinese prerogatives and have a holistic approach called the Comprehensive National Power where all aspect of state power is considered i.e. the economy, culture, the military etc vis a vis other countries. It is reviewed annually.

Deception and stratagems is a close second in their strategic thinking. This is enshrined in their theory of Legalism. They believe in Practice and hence these concepts regularly are tested as with their regular needling at the McMahon Line and should be no surprise. The Chinese also places great emphasis on Prediction. They predicated on a deep analysis of all relevant elements and intentions and a complete understanding of objective conditions, not on simple analogy or inference.

It is pertinent to note that as mentioned before the Chinese divide national interest into it subheads of each aspect of national power and integrity i.e. political interest, national economic interest, national military inter¬est, national cultural interest etc Generally, national interest equates to territorial integrity, security, political sovereignty, development, stability, and dignity. Their Strategic goals involve protecting these vital interests.

Creativity that is, the soul of strategic thinking requires subjective initiative to surpass experience and tradition.

It is true that one should fall prey to fears and insecurities, but at the same time, one should not be complacent as India was pre 1962.

I wonder if Gen Malik said 16:1 is required for HAA since the thumb rule is 11:1.
At this rate one could say 22:1. I will leave it for you all to think about the ratios with the thought that in high altitude, the ledges to the objective are narrow and at times they barely can take four men abreast. Hence it becomes important to divide the enemy’s attention and firepower through multi directional attack, preferably through attack by infiltration. Passing through drills are most complicated and reserves on each axis of attack has to be maintained so ensure the momentum of attack. There has to also be a follow up group with replenishment and reorganisation stores on each axis of attack! All this adds to the numbers.

It took long to clear the enemy in Kargil because of inadequate information of the enemy, but when it was fairly known, the momentum to clear them picked up. To be frank, only one PGM was effective on the objective as far as I can recall. IAF hardly pounded day and night. It is not to say that the IAF did not do their job, it was just that they were new to HAA.

It would be wrong to compare 1962 to modern times. HAA Warfare is totally a different kettle of fish to plains or even mountain warfare. Tactics, logistics, equipment, effects of High Altitude on men and fighting etc are totally different. Therefore to blame the General of 1962 wholesale would not be fair and is quite uncalled for. In fact, the blame heaped on them was just to find scapegoats and save ‘face’. Indeed, there were blunders, but then they were not trained or experienced in High Altitude Warfare. If High Altitude Warfare was the same as plains warfare, then there would have been no HAWS High Altitude Warfare School nor would foreign and modern armies of the First World come to train in India or participate in HAA Warfare exercises!

To understand 1962, one has to understand Chinese strategic thought. It is not similar to Indian or western thoughts. To feel that we were defeated by light, nimble, small groups that infiltrated is simplistically put. This, in itself, indicates that the Generals of IA were not conversant with HAA Warfare where Attack by Infiltration in its various avatars is more the rule than exception. It also proves that the IA was not trained for the same and the IA was facing acclimatised, war veterans of the Korean War Chinese soldiers who had faced a modern army!

The reading of the Kargil War is faulted.

The very fact that Musharraf, without a thought on logistic, embarked on this adventure, is what made him slink back. His people ran out of ammunition, rations and medical support. To suggest such a mode is totally unmilitary like.

Let this ‘teach a lesson’ theory of the Chinese not overawe us! Every war for the Chinese is to ‘teach a lesson’. Even the Vietnam aggression was on the same theory. I would not take up any more space on Chinese Military mindset, but their concept of Legalism should be read in this context or that of Confucius’ ‘Wang Dao’.

The Chinese withdrew, as they did in Vietnam, not because of any morality; they withdrew because their logistics could not sustain them and without artillery (since the trails would not permit artillery moving up) they were sitting ducks themselves should the adversary taken heart, regrouped and attacked with fresh troops! Let us not get enamoured by their pious platitudes and propaganda. It is a part of their strategic military thinking.

I am not aware as to how mortars can take on the artillery!

It is time to understand the Chinese mind and not get mystified and giving them the aura of being something unfathomable and superior!


As Sun Tsu said in his Art of War – Know your enemy!!

[svinayak]

Thanks for the welcome, Acharya. Good to be back.

The question, in other words, is: what is the story they tell themselves? Something like: "We Chinese are xxx/did yyy that's why bad things happened to us"... What are they trying to compensate for through their intense nationalism? What special connotation does geography have for them that it does not for others? We were pretty bent out of shape when some guys climbed up on some God forsaken peaks, right?

Basically, the intent is to attribute personal qualities to a nation, just as we develop a "read" for a person that helps us understand and predict that person's actions.

The story they tell among themselves is the humiliation of occupation by western nations and occupation by Imperial Japan.
There is also Han hubris which combined with the Middle Kingdom syndrome will be shown outside. But only few will exhibit it.
There is nationalism which binds the younger people. Recent event and protest has brought in more international exposure to the external world for the ordinary.

[Rishi]

http://www.indiana.edu/~p374/Legalism.pdf

A primer on Legalism, i.e. kind of the Chinese Earth-e-shater?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_% ... losophy%29

SHANG YANG ("Lord Shang"; d. 338 BCE)
Official in the state of Ch'in
Emphasized a strong military and strict laws
Primary theses:
1. the law (fa) should be concerned only with obedience to authority, not
with moral issues like right/wrong or justice/injustice;
2. there are only two legitimate activities for the people:
a. economic production (esp. agriculture)
b. service to the state (esp. army service)

[G Subramaniam]

http://www.indiana.edu/~p374/Legalism.pdf

A primer on Legalism, i.e. kind of the Chinese Earth-e-shater?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_% ... losophy%29

SHANG YANG ("Lord Shang"; d. 338 BCE)
Official in the state of Ch'in
Emphasized a strong military and strict laws
Primary theses:
1. the law (fa) should be concerned only with obedience to authority, not
with moral issues like right/wrong or justice/injustice;
2. there are only two legitimate activities for the people:
a. economic production (esp. agriculture)
b. service to the state (esp. army service)

Thanks

From above post
Amoral pursuit of power is the main aim of the chinese
establishment
and hence a lot similar to sharia and communism

When the moral compass is lost we have abominations like
forced abortions, mass famines, genocides, and brutalisations of animals

In china, 1000 years ago, the followers of Legalism defeated the buddhists and drove the buddhists into the lower classes

[G Subramaniam]

The doctrine of legalism means that even a KMT regime would have been semi-barbarous, Communism is a doctrine in parallel with Legalism
and this has made the PRC doubly barbarous

[RayC]

I believe it was after the Eastern Zhou dynasty and the Warring Period that Legalism was strictly brought into force so as to bring the wars and strife under control and thus emerged China.

Legalism combined with Confucius' teaching brought about the mindset to obey Laws (Fa) and since it was applied to all across the board and was as per set rules and principles, it acted as a great leveller and hence appealed to the masses. Years of this practice has made it a reflexive mindset and hence one is surprised at the fierce collective reaction that one saw in anticnn.com . This was also born out of the Han pride that their culture has bequeathed to them wherein they are convinced that the Han culture is the most superior to all and that the others are 'barbarians'.

It is something like Islam, as someone has mentioned here, which the adherents believe is the last word and superior to all religions.

When such a mindset of superiority is hammered in through centuries, it does produces oddities.

[svinayak]

I believe it was after the Eastern Zhou dynasty and the Warring Period that Legalism was strictly brought into force so as to bring the wars and strife under control and thus emerged China.

Legalism combined with Confucius' teaching brought about the mindset to obey Laws (Fa) and since it was applied to all across the board and was as per set rules and principles, it acted as a great leveller and hence appealed to the masses. Years of this practice has made it a reflexive mindset and hence one is surprised at the fierce collective reaction that one saw in anticnn.com . This was also born out of the Han pride that their culture has bequeathed to them wherein they are convinced that the Han culture is the most superior to all and that the others are 'barbarians'.

It is something like Islam, as someone has mentioned here, which the adherents believe is the last word and superior to all religions.

When such a mindset of superiority is hammered in through centuries, it does produces oddities.

We need to understand how British understood the Chinese mind and used power to control all the warlords in Chinese mainland during the occupation. Why is that Indian troops - Sikh regiments were able to control large parts of the cities in China - Peking during the British control. Of course they were already behind in terms of still in monarchy.

[RayC]

Opium!

Taipng Rebellion.

The fact that the Qing Dynasty were Manchus and looked upon by the Hans as being barbarians and who should be got rid of!

Though this a simplistic answer to a complex issue.

[Nayak]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1216593 ... tors_picks

Olympic Athletes Wearing Masks
Could Cause China to Lose Face
U.S. Committee Developed a Model in Secret;
Jarrod Shoemaker Ponders the Dork Factor
By CHRISTOPHER RHOADS and STEPHANIE KANG
July 21, 2008; Page A1

U.S. triathlete Jarrod Shoemaker has a decision to make at the opening ceremony of the Olympics next month in Beijing: Should he strap on a mask?
[Jarrod Shoemaker]

Chinese officials insist the notorious Beijing air will be cleaner by August, making such contraptions unnecessary. Concerned about the pollution, the U.S. Olympic Committee is distributing a high-tech mask, developed in secrecy, to its more than 600 Olympians. If athletes deploy it, they risk insulting the hosts. Then there's the geek factor.

"I probably will want to wear it," says the 26-year-old Mr. Shoemaker, who plans to have his mask on nearly all the time he's in Beijing when not competing. "Whether I will be allowed to is a different issue."

Though the practice is less common today, Chinese for years have worn masks to protect their lungs from the country's heavy dust and pollution. But foreigners wearing them during the Games this summer -- particularly at the opening ceremony broadcast to billions of television viewers around the world? That's a different matter.


Having foreigners cover their faces at the Olympics could mean a loss of face for the Chinese. "When you're walking around with a mask on, you're basically saying, 'You guys stink,' " says Scott Schnitzspahn, performance director of the U.S. triathlon team.

The details of the mask, which the U.S. Olympic Committee, or USOC, spent more than two years developing, remain hush-hush. That contrasts with the USOC's usual openness, typified by its willingness to share its training complex in Colorado Springs, Colo., with teams from around the world.

'Top Secret'

"Some of our strategies and equipment are, quite honestly, 'top secret,' and we are hesitant to lay all our cards on the table for our competitors to mimic," explained Randy Wilber, the USOC's sport physiologist who oversaw the mask project, in an email.

The issue is highly charged for Chinese officials, who say recent measures, such as limiting vehicular traffic and shutting down factories, will make the Beijing air more than suitable for Olympic competition next month. Over the weekend, Beijing enjoyed unusually clear weather, as the city entered the final stretch of its crash effort to clean up the skies. (Please see related article.)

"When people come to this environment and get acclimated, they'll see they won't need" a mask, says Jeff Ruffolo, senior adviser to the Beijing Olympic Committee.

Mr. Shoemaker remains unconvinced.

The poor air quality during other triathlons in China that he has competed in made his lungs feel like someone was standing on his chest, he says. So last fall, when he arrived at a triathlon outside Beijing, he opted for a mask.

Competitors teased him, telling him he looked ridiculous. Mr. Shoemaker himself worried about offending his Chinese hosts, who insisted there was nothing wrong with the air.

"I definitely got some comments, like, 'Come on, that's a little much,' " he says.

Still, he wore the surgeon-style mask for nearly his entire four days in China before and after competing. He took it off just seconds before his event. In the end, Mr. Shoemaker had the last laugh: He finished first among the Americans, by 12 seconds, qualifying him for the U.S. Olympic team now headed for Beijing.
[Cyclists wear masks while riding in Beijing last week. Beijing authorities have insisted air quality in the Chinese capital has improved enough to meet its Olympic targets.]
Getty Images
Cyclists wear masks while riding in Beijing last week. Beijing authorities have insisted air quality in the Chinese capital has improved enough to meet its Olympic targets.

"There is the uncool factor," says Mr. Schnitzspahn, the triathlon team official. "But it's not so uncool once you're on the team."

American athletes who have received the new USOC mask say they were instructed not to share details about it. Some have disclosed that it contains a carbon-filter insert and comes in different colors, including black and taupe.

The secrecy has irked some. "If we have something that will help these kids from developing bronchial problems, why not share that with the rest of the world?" says Frank Filiberto, the head doctor for the U.S. boxing team.

He saw firsthand the effects of the Beijing air on his boxers during a test event last November, he says. On a scheduled five-mile run one morning, the boxers were coughing. Five of the 11 boxers came down with bronchitis, and three required medical treatment, he says. The coaches decided to keep the boxers in their hotel for the rest of the week, where they trained in the hallways.

Many play down the need to wear masks, arguing that everyone will be coping with the same conditions. The International Olympic Committee has promised to postpone events should the pollution get too thick. Some point out that pollution fears before the 1984 Games in Los Angeles turned out to be unfounded.

"There's always somebody b- about something," says former U.S. Olympic swimmer Gary Hall Jr. "In Athens, athletes pulled out because they thought there were going to be terrorists -- they missed out."

At the moment, there is no stated policy on mask-wearing at the opening ceremony or during competition. Olympic officials believe it's up to the international federation of each sport to determine whether to allow masks during events.

The British Olympic Association has developed a mask that could actually be worn during competition, unlike the U.S. mask. Respro Ltd., a self-described maker of "urban survival equipment" in London, says it has supplied the British team with a device called the Sportsta. It is made of neoprene and features state-of-the-art valves.

'Totally Useless'

This past spring, Jacques Rogge, the president of the International Olympic Committee, took a stand on the issue -- sort of. "I recommend athletes not to wear masks because our experts say they are not efficient," Mr. Rogge said. "They can do whatever they want, but I'm telling them it's totally useless."

Matthew Reed, a member of the U.S. triathlon team, says that seeing Olympic athletes suffering from polluted air on the world stage might not be all bad: It could embarrass China into embracing stronger environmental measures. "It's just disgusting what they've done to that part of the world," says the 32-year-old Mr. Reed, who grew up in New Zealand.

At a soccer match last year in Beijing, foreign players on the sideline wore masks, prompting several Chinese fans to tell them they were insulting and unnecessary, according to an American Olympic official who witnessed the episode.

Kara Goucher, a runner on the U.S. Olympic track team who says she will likely wear a mask between events, knows what it's like to get stares. She started wearing a mask two months ago on flights to protect against catching a cold. "People ask if I'm sick and I have to be like 'No, I'm doing this to protect myself from you!' "

Tourists at the Games this summer will have to balance sensitivity to their Chinese hosts with how they feel about health and personal appearance. "It depends on how 'Michael Jackson' you want to get," says Scott Grody, chief operating officer of Fugazy International Travel/American Express, in Boca Raton, Fla.

But the big mask moment could well be the opening ceremony on Aug. 8.

Mr. Shoemaker, the triathlete who intends to wear his mask at the ceremony, says he might consider taking it off when TV cameras zoom in on the U.S. delegation.

For friends watching at home, he says, "I want to make sure they see the big smile on my face."

--Shai Oster in Beijing contributed to this article.

Write to Christopher Rhoads at christopher.rhoads@wsj.com and Stephanie Kang at stephanie.kang@wsj.com

[ramana]

X-Posted...
First posted by G Subramaniam

------
China's Decision for War with India in 1962
John W. Garver
Why Did China's Leaders Decide for War against India?

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~johnston/garver.pdf


73 page document based on inside chinese sources
-------------------------

[malushahi]

Not sure if this the right thread to post this news (my logic being it assists in understanding that all is not hunky-dory in the middle kingdom):

Kunming, Yunnan: Bomb explosion in Chinese buses

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... s-two.html

Xinhua release:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008- ... 739304.htm

[Baljeet]

Chinese are coming, chinese are coming

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... inionsbox1

[Sanjay M]

Why China Won't Surpass the USA:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 255_2.html

[rajrang]

Why China Won't Surpass the USA:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 255_2.html

Emotional article from a person who obviously has strong emotional ties to China. He does not want us to be afraid of China because he believes in all his personal anecdotal evidence -which is a very small statictical sample. Lacks critical thinking - more like a casual social ramble. Surprising he held such a senior position at the Washington post. The only meaningful argument he has is the demographics - age issue and even then his statistics seem somewhat high.

Forget 2050. Look at China's output today. They are rapidly approaching the US in overall economic terms. China produces 5 times the crude steel of the US and growing by 10% per year. China produces 1.5 times the coal of the US. In consumer goods, China's automobile production is approaching the 10 million mark and is growing at 20+% per year. The US auto production is around 15 to 17 million and falling. The GDP in PPP terms of China is around 7 trillion dollars - growing around 10% a year, while the US is around 12 trillion. By 2020, China will definitely have the largest economy in the world. Once that happens military and diplomatic strength will follow. Beyond that time it will take a coalition of Western countries - US / NATO etc. to match the China's global muscle. By 2050 comparing China to the US will be like comparing the US to Great Britain today.

[Rishirishi]

One has to understand the Chinese concept of strategy.

To the Chinese military mind and strategic thinking, politics is the soul of Chinese strategy. They look at contradictions as competitive and synthesise it balancing the international factors with the Chinese prerogatives and have a holistic approach called the Comprehensive National Power where all aspect of state power is considered i.e. the economy, culture, the military etc vis a vis other countries. It is reviewed annually.

Deception and stratagems is a close second in their strategic thinking. This is enshrined in their theory of Legalism. They believe in Practice and hence these concepts regularly are tested as with their regular needling at the McMahon Line and should be no surprise. The Chinese also places great emphasis on Prediction. They predicated on a deep analysis of all relevant elements and intentions and a complete understanding of objective conditions, not on simple analogy or inference.

It is pertinent to note that as mentioned before the Chinese divide national interest into it subheads of each aspect of national power and integrity i.e. political interest, national economic interest, national military inter¬est, national cultural interest etc Generally, national interest equates to territorial integrity, security, political sovereignty, development, stability, and dignity. Their Strategic goals involve protecting these vital interests.

Creativity that is, the soul of strategic thinking requires subjective initiative to surpass experience and tradition.

It is true that one should fall prey to fears and insecurities, but at the same time, one should not be complacent as India was pre 1962.

I wonder if Gen Malik said 16:1 is required for HAA since the thumb rule is 11:1.
At this rate one could say 22:1. I will leave it for you all to think about the ratios with the thought that in high altitude, the ledges to the objective are narrow and at times they barely can take four men abreast. Hence it becomes important to divide the enemy’s attention and firepower through multi directional attack, preferably through attack by infiltration. Passing through drills are most complicated and reserves on each axis of attack has to be maintained so ensure the momentum of attack. There has to also be a follow up group with replenishment and reorganisation stores on each axis of attack! All this adds to the numbers.

It took long to clear the enemy in Kargil because of inadequate information of the enemy, but when it was fairly known, the momentum to clear them picked up. To be frank, only one PGM was effective on the objective as far as I can recall. IAF hardly pounded day and night. It is not to say that the IAF did not do their job, it was just that they were new to HAA.

It would be wrong to compare 1962 to modern times. HAA Warfare is totally a different kettle of fish to plains or even mountain warfare. Tactics, logistics, equipment, effects of High Altitude on men and fighting etc are totally different. Therefore to blame the General of 1962 wholesale would not be fair and is quite uncalled for. In fact, the blame heaped on them was just to find scapegoats and save ‘face’. Indeed, there were blunders, but then they were not trained or experienced in High Altitude Warfare. If High Altitude Warfare was the same as plains warfare, then there would have been no HAWS High Altitude Warfare School nor would foreign and modern armies of the First World come to train in India or participate in HAA Warfare exercises!

To understand 1962, one has to understand Chinese strategic thought. It is not similar to Indian or western thoughts. To feel that we were defeated by light, nimble, small groups that infiltrated is simplistically put. This, in itself, indicates that the Generals of IA were not conversant with HAA Warfare where Attack by Infiltration in its various avatars is more the rule than exception. It also proves that the IA was not trained for the same and the IA was facing acclimatised, war veterans of the Korean War Chinese soldiers who had faced a modern army!

The reading of the Kargil War is faulted.

The very fact that Musharraf, without a thought on logistic, embarked on this adventure, is what made him slink back. His people ran out of ammunition, rations and medical support. To suggest such a mode is totally unmilitary like.

Let this ‘teach a lesson’ theory of the Chinese not overawe us! Every war for the Chinese is to ‘teach a lesson’. Even the Vietnam aggression was on the same theory. I would not take up any more space on Chinese Military mindset, but their concept of Legalism should be read in this context or that of Confucius’ ‘Wang Dao’.

The Chinese withdrew, as they did in Vietnam, not because of any morality; they withdrew because their logistics could not sustain them and without artillery (since the trails would not permit artillery moving up) they were sitting ducks themselves should the adversary taken heart, regrouped and attacked with fresh troops! Let us not get enamoured by their pious platitudes and propaganda. It is a part of their strategic military thinking.

I am not aware as to how mortars can take on the artillery!

It is time to understand the Chinese mind and not get mystified and giving them the aura of being something unfathomable and superior!


As Sun Tsu said in his Art of War – Know your enemy!!

Let me add a few impressions, that I have got from the Chinease people.

1 Most Chinease are not aware of the sino india war in 62. In china it is more defined as "skimrish" rather then a war. But the ones who know about the war, hold the view that China won, what ever it was.

2
Chinease policy has been centred arround 3 things. 1) the humilliation of the the Opium war, where the british forced China to accept import of Opium and lease Hong Kong to them. 2) The reunification with Taiwan. 3) The relation to USA.
Issues like Tibet, India, Vietnam, etc are precieved as secondry issues, and not really important to China.

3
China - Pakistan relation.
Chinas to friends are Pakistan and North Korea. When you have so few friends, then you do not want to loose them. So Far TSP has proven to promote Sino interests (containing India and a good market for sub standard Chinease arms). Besides Pakistan has acted as a go between US and the arab world. But now TSP is becomming a liability. China is very uncomfortable with the rise of the fundamentalism in Pak. They fear backclash in Xinjian. Besides they are all to aware what the average Pakistani thinks about chinease atheism. TSP frindship is fast becomming a cost. It is important to point out that the goal number 1 for China is, the economy. Any domestic or forigin policy alwasy takes into account the economic impact. One may even argue that economic interests are the ones that form the forigin policy. This explains the relations with Taiwan and the way HK is administered.
They get very little in return from TSP. Hence TSP is not so important any more.


China - India relation.
Again it is important to point out the importance given to the economical goal. China benefits from the trade with India. The trade is growing, but at the same time, India is not a very important trading partner.
The Chinease have almost taken it for granted that China will become the dominant economic power in the future. The question is what they will do, when they realize that India may surpass them, long before they become number 1. How will they act to such a situation. Will they try to sabotage the Indian economy?

Before people here starts to blast, me, let me give an account of why I think India is going to surpass China.

1 Demographics
The Chinease population is ageing fast. The 1 child policy will start to impact the economy within 5-10 years time. The working poulation will shrink and the older population will increase. Expect dramatic fall in savings rate. Savings rate are very important, because they have been financing the recless spending by the government and the bank loans.

2 Industry
India has few and less export, but the export and economic output produce profit. The companies are held by private players. This ensures that the companies merge, are sold or shut down, according to the economic conditions. Indian compaines are far more innovative, and better managed. They know that copying products can be Ok, but it is far better and more profitable to be innovative. Indian outward investment is actually simmilar to the invard investment. Indian companies purchase small western comanies to get acess to key technology and market acess. Indian compenis are able to interact and learn from the western world, because of English.

Now contrast this to China. Most large Chinease companies are government owned (or owned by a cooperative). We know all too well, that such enterprises rarely are competative.
Chinease recieve a huge ammount of forigin investments. But almost all of the investment comes in to take advantage of the low labour costs. Very few Chinease comanies focus on adding value or selling a service. An Indian programmer may be charging up to 10-20 dollars per hour. The same as 20 manual workers earn. Incomes in India are rising far faster, then China. This proves that the Indian comepnies are more productive.
Chinease companies rerely make acusitions abroad. Whe on).n they do, it is usually large ticket items such as oil fields or IBM's troubled PC division (which lenovo bought and lost moeny). Just imagine. China is the worlds largest manufacturar, but they hardly have a single well known brand.

Fact of the matter is that Indian companies are learning very fast and incresingly compeeting in high tech and high value industry. Chinease companies are focussed on Copy, copy and copy.


3 Finance.
India has a developed finance system, where companies can borrow, issue shares, merge, or sell business units.

China does not really have a defined finance system. The banks have massive debts, because they do not have colaterol. Chinease have not got any right to own land, hence they have problems with raising debt.



To be continued.

[g.sarkar]

One has to understand the Chinese concept of strategy.
It is time to understand the Chinese mind and not get mystified and giving them the aura of being something unfathomable and superior!
As Sun Tsu said in his Art of War – Know your enemy!!

RayC Saab,
It is nice to be able to talk to someone who has seen the military side of things.
Before knowing our enemy we should first know our self. Monumental military blunders have happened before in many other places, nothing wrong with that. Just take the case of the British, from whom we have inherited out political system and the traditions of our military. One was the withdrawal at Dunkirk in 1939, where the British Expeditionary Forces retreated, leaving behind all their equipment with just their bare lives, while the Germans paused few kilometers away. Nearer to home, there is the surrender of the British at Singapore and the ignominious withdrawal from Burma. A tremendous loss of face in Asia, where face is every thing. If you have read the accounts of Mr. Annada Shankar Ray (Spell?), ICS, the orders had come from Delhi that if the Imperial Japanese forces over-ran Eastern India (Assam Bengal etc), the ICS officers were to hand over the civilian administration to them peacefully and in an orderly way. It had come to that. This was much worse than the retreat of Indian army helter-skelter from places like Bom-Dila. But even while these routs were going on, no one ever doubted the fact that the British were withdrawing only temporarily, they were not going to give up their land. They were going to come back and fight for their land. Yet their claim to the lands were not very old, they had won India, Burma and places like Singapore only recently. Much more recently, Mrs.Thatcher defended The Falkland/ Malvinas Islands with the remains of the once powerful British Navy (in 1981?). Against this tradition that India received from the British, we put up a pitiful fight. And I am not blaming the soldiers at the front, but the managers. During the war, the political leadership did not allow the air force to fight. This shows inner contradictions, hesitations and fear. Fear of spreading the war! Thereby we surrendered the iniative to the enemy. The British never had such self doubts, theirs was always the just war. Compare this with the British fighting alone when France fell and their cities were bombed. The lands of Aksai Chin we were told were worthless as not a blade of grass grew there, meaning it is not worth fighting for. This is not the British tradition that our leadership was supposed to have inherited. The facts are simple, we had inherited peaceful borders (except with that of Pakistan), and we squandered this advantage away. China in 1962 was not a country more advanced than India, it was comparable to us in most ways. India had many advantages. It was not isolated internationally, as China was. It was not fighting the US as China was in Korea. It could have bartered its position and negotiated for arms and continued the fight. But all these requires “tatta”. Not easy to grow at a late age. China declared cease fire when it was to its advantage, and we meekly accepted the status quo. Ever since, the Indian political leadership is unable to get over this loss of face and continue to hesitate while dealing with China. Yet, in the few occasions we stood up to them, they have backed down. You write that it is wrong to compare 1962 with modern times. Maybe this is true in the military sense. I am afraid this might not be true in the political side, where a few quick losses may again unnerve the leadership who have no military background at all. I look forward to hearing more from you in this topic.
Best regards,
Gautam

[wrdos]

Dear Rishirishi

So far as I know, you have been posting around your prediction that India will surpass China one day for quite a long period.
But as a serious author, don't you think it is necessary to give some sound date for your prediction? We know India will surpass China, eg by GDP or by the population, but the question is when?

It will be 10yrs, or 20yrs, or 50yrs, or 100 yrs from 2008?

You know, there is another well respected member of this forum. He predicted that China would collapse within 5 years back to 2001. The last time i found his post was in 2007. He was still declaring China would collapse within 5 years.

You are supposed to be a more serious author on this website, right?

Before people here starts to blast, me, let me give an account of why I think India is going to surpass China.

1 Demographics
The Chinease population is ageing fast. The 1 child policy will start to impact the economy within 5-10 years time. The working poulation will shrink and the older population will increase. Expect dramatic fall in savings rate. Savings rate are very important, because they have been financing the recless spending by the government and the bank loans.

2 Industry
India has few and less export, but the export and economic output produce profit. The companies are held by private players. This ensures that the companies merge, are sold or shut down, according to the economic conditions. Indian compaines are far more innovative, and better managed. They know that copying products can be Ok, but it is far better and more profitable to be innovative. Indian outward investment is actually simmilar to the invard investment. Indian companies purchase small western comanies to get acess to key technology and market acess. Indian compenis are able to interact and learn from the western world, because of English.

Now contrast this to China. Most large Chinease companies are government owned (or owned by a cooperative). We know all too well, that such enterprises rarely are competative.
Chinease recieve a huge ammount of forigin investments. But almost all of the investment comes in to take advantage of the low labour costs. Very few Chinease comanies focus on adding value or selling a service. An Indian programmer may be charging up to 10-20 dollars per hour. The same as 20 manual workers earn. Incomes in India are rising far faster, then China. This proves that the Indian comepnies are more productive.
Chinease companies rerely make acusitions abroad. Whe on).n they do, it is usually large ticket items such as oil fields or IBM's troubled PC division (which lenovo bought and lost moeny). Just imagine. China is the worlds largest manufacturar, but they hardly have a single well known brand.

Fact of the matter is that Indian companies are learning very fast and incresingly compeeting in high tech and high value industry. Chinease companies are focussed on Copy, copy and copy.


3 Finance.
India has a developed finance system, where companies can borrow, issue shares, merge, or sell business units.

China does not really have a defined finance system. The banks have massive debts, because they do not have colaterol. Chinease have not got any right to own land, hence they have problems with raising debt.



To be continued.

[Rishirishi]

Dear Rishirishi

So far as I know, you have been posting around your prediction that India will surpass China one day for quite a long period.
But as a serious author, don't you think it is necessary to give some sound date for your prediction? We know India will surpass China, eg by GDP or by the population, but the question is when?

It will be 10yrs, or 20yrs, or 50yrs, or 100 yrs from 2008?

You know, there is another well respected member of this forum. He predicted that China would collapse within 5 years back to 2001. The last time i found his post was in 2007. He was still declaring China would collapse within 5 years.

You are supposed to be a more serious author on this website, right?

Before people here starts to blast, me, let me give an account of why I think India is going to surpass China.

1 Demographics
The Chinease population is ageing fast. The 1 child policy will start to impact the economy within 5-10 years time. The working poulation will shrink and the older population will increase. Expect dramatic fall in savings rate. Savings rate are very important, because they have been financing the recless spending by the government and the bank loans.

2 Industry
India has few and less export, but the export and economic output produce profit. The companies are held by private players. This ensures that the companies merge, are sold or shut down, according to the economic conditions. Indian compaines are far more innovative, and better managed. They know that copying products can be Ok, but it is far better and more profitable to be innovative. Indian outward investment is actually simmilar to the invard investment. Indian companies purchase small western comanies to get acess to key technology and market acess. Indian compenis are able to interact and learn from the western world, because of English.

Now contrast this to China. Most large Chinease companies are government owned (or owned by a cooperative). We know all too well, that such enterprises rarely are competative.
Chinease recieve a huge ammount of forigin investments. But almost all of the investment comes in to take advantage of the low labour costs. Very few Chinease comanies focus on adding value or selling a service. An Indian programmer may be charging up to 10-20 dollars per hour. The same as 20 manual workers earn. Incomes in India are rising far faster, then China. This proves that the Indian comepnies are more productive.
Chinease companies rerely make acusitions abroad. Whe on).n they do, it is usually large ticket items such as oil fields or IBM's troubled PC division (which lenovo bought and lost moeny). Just imagine. China is the worlds largest manufacturar, but they hardly have a single well known brand.

Fact of the matter is that Indian companies are learning very fast and incresingly compeeting in high tech and high value industry. Chinease companies are focussed on Copy, copy and copy.


3 Finance.
India has a developed finance system, where companies can borrow, issue shares, merge, or sell business units.

China does not really have a defined finance system. The banks have massive debts, because they do not have colaterol. Chinease have not got any right to own land, hence they have problems with raising debt.



To be continued.

I base my prediction on what I observe. I am not an oracle, who has the right answers. If you do not agree with me, you are welcome to counter my arguments.
Also, I have noticed that you have been arround for quite a while. You must have noticed my admiration the Parties ability to get things done, and the magnificant infrastructure that has been built in the main Chinease cities.

But I have never heard a word from you giving any critical account of the Chinease Governmnet. Perhaps you are one of the people who thinks the government never does anything wrong. What are your views on Falung Gong? Who is paying your salary??

[Singha]

what do you mean India _will_ surpass ? China is never going to catch up with India
in the rights given to the common citizen. control/punish/manage is what they do
best as seen here. ya they will have a bigger airport terminal and a bigger metro
station if that makes the oppressed peasants happy after losing their land to the
local developer

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/29/sport ... ref=slogin

Before Guests Arrive, Beijing Hides Some Messes

By JAKE HOOKER
Published: July 29, 2008

BEIJING — Tourists leaving the west gate of the Temple of Heaven next month will probably not notice Song Wei’s home across the street. Nor are spectators along the Olympic marathon route likely to stop by Sun Ruonan’s restaurant nearby.

Doug Kanter for The New York Times

In Beijing’s quest to “rectify the Olympic environment,” a brick wall now hides a clutch of small shops run by migrant families.

Mr. Song and Ms. Sun live along Beijing’s central axis in neighborhoods that have been gutted to make the city look clean and orderly for the Olympics. Both have held on despite pressure to move. They will spend the Olympics behind walls or screens erected to keep their property out of public view.

A veil of green plastic netting now covers Ms. Sun’s restaurant. Mr. Song’s house and several shops that he rents to migrant families were surrounded by a 10-foot-tall brick wall last week, part of a last-minute beautification campaign. The authorities deemed his little block of commerce an eyesore.

“We all support the Olympics,” said Mr. Song, 42, a Beijing native who lives along the cycling and marathon routes. “But why are you building a wall around us?”

A mysterious notice appeared beside the shops on July 17, typed on white paper and signed by no one. It read, “In keeping with the government’s request to rectify the Olympic environment, a wall will need to be built around No. 93 South Tianqiao Road.” The next morning, several bricklayers showed up with a police escort.

Now a wall conceals a little cove of entrepreneurship where several migrant families sell socks, book bags, pants, noodles and shish kebabs cooked in a spicy soup. One family behind the wall sells ice cream, popsicles and cold drinks from a refrigerator on wheels.

Zhao Fengxia, a neighbor who owns three shops, said she believed that officials and developers were using Olympic beautification as a pretext to strangle their business and put pressure on them to leave. Feng Pan, 18, who helps her parents run a noodle shop, accepted the official view less critically. “We influence the city’s appearance,” she said.

A planning official, Zhi Wenguang, said, “We extended an existing wall to improve the overall environment for Olympic events.”

Many cities have sought to remake their image when hosting global events like the Olympics. Beijing is polishing off one of the world’s most expensive makeovers with a whitewash. Along the historic central axis of the city that runs from the Yongdingmen Gate due north to the Drum Tower, the authorities are doing their best to give the old city a new face. Beijing has spent $130 million to restore buildings, many of them temples along the five-mile axis, according to the city’s cultural relics bureau.

The Olympic Stadium was built on a northern extension of the traditional axis — a nod to the event’s historic importance. On the wide boulevards leading up to the stadium, roadblocks have been set up and flowers, grass and trees planted.

The southern part of the axis has proved more difficult to beautify. It cuts through densely populated neighborhoods south of Tiananmen Square that are home to many of the city’s migrants and working poor. To hide neighborhoods leveled for redevelopment in recent years or anything else the government considers unsightly, officials have put up walls.

Mr. Song and his wife and 8-year-old daughter now live behind one. They have lived here since 1994, Mr. Song said, renting out his shops to families from the provinces.

They live in close quarters. The Songs’ room is barely big enough for a double bed on which the couple and daughter sleep. Two pet birds live in metal cages by the door. The birds, brown starlings with dark feathers and orange beaks, can parrot human speech. Mr. Song taught the birds one of the most famous poems of the Tang Dynasty. Every few minutes, it squawks lines from the poem: “The white sun falls over the mountains” or “The Yellow River flows into the sea.”

Behind the room is a moonscape of weeds and rubble that used to be a slum. Mr. Song’s place survived while the city razed the poor Tianqiao neighborhood and transformed it with shopping malls, wider streets and subdivisions. Mr. Song’s predicament is familiar in the churn of this changing city. The developers want him to go, but he is holding out for more money.

On July 17, several workers left a pile of red bricks on the sidewalk. The next morning, they returned, wearing sandals and straw hats, accompanied by the police and local officials. They set to work laying brick at 8:30 a.m.

The wall did not go up easily. After a brief shoving match, a little demonstration unfolded. Mr. Song hung three Chinese flags from the trunks of trees — and three white flags emblazoned with the 2008 Olympic logo. A migrant worker climbed a ladder and stuck up a poster that said, “Need Human Rights!!!”

To scare away the officials, Mr. Song brought out a large poster with a famous photograph of Mao sitting in a wicker chair. “He thought Mao might be able to do something for us,” joked Ms. Zhao, the neighbor, who was there that morning.

The bricklayers worked through a hard rain. As a crowd of sympathetic morning commuters gathered, the police strung up a police tape around the poplar trees. A dozen men in slacks and polo shirts stood around, keeping the situation under control.

“One person shouted, ‘So you’re not going to allow people to feed themselves!’ ” Ms. Zhao recalled. “A lot of families earn their livelihoods from these shops — even though they’re small.”

Gu Dahua, 47, a farmer from Anhui Province, came here with his wife three years ago. They sell combs, mirrors, socks and other small commodities all priced at 1 yuan, or about 15 cents. The wall has not been good for business.

“It’s hard now,” Mr. Gu said.

Two blocks north, another store along the axis has been closed for the Games.

Sun Ruonan’s ancestors opened a bakery on the axis south of Tiananmen Square in the 1840s. The city tried to tear down the building last year to plant grass and ornamental shrubs beside the Olympic marathon route. Ms. Sun and her younger sister, Ruoyu, an Australian citizen, refused to vacate.

Last Tuesday, Ms. Sun, 57, sat alone in the dining room of the restaurant, surrounded by her cats. Festive paper lanterns hung in the dining room, which smelled of cat litter and decay. It was 4 p.m., and Ms. Sun was still in her pajamas.

“I don’t really want to oppose the government,” she said, breaking into tears. “For those of us who have lived through the Cultural Revolution, this life is like heaven.”

The city has bullied her to leave. One night last year, a bulldozer slammed into the building. Neighbors are paid to keep watch over her, and they notify the police when she has guests. Ms. Sun said officials pressed her doctor into refusing to give her care.

Her building is falling apart. The government, for the sake of appearances, has put up scaffolding with green netting around it. As the runners pass her home in August, it will be easy for spectators to miss the posters, begging for help, taped to the door.

“I’m hanging here like a nail,” she said.

[Sadler]

allah-o-akbal

http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=7123
"The Turkistan Islamic Party warns China one more time"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

Here, for a change, is a more primary source discussing jihadist activity in China, minus the usual filtering of state-controlled media. And one might find it interesting that jihadist movements near and far certainly seem to "misunderstand" their religion with remarkable uniformity. "Group threatens Olympics terror, claims bus bombings," from Reuters, July 26:

A group calling itself the Turkistan Islamic Party released a video threatening the Beijing Olympic Games and claiming responsibility for recent deadly explosions on two Chinese buses, a terrorism monitoring firm said.
IntelCenter, a US-based terrorism monitoring firm, said the group had released a video entitled "Our Blessed Jihad in Yunnan," featuring a statement by the group's leader, Commander Seyfullah, threatening next month's Olympics.
"Despite the Turkistan Islamic Party's repeated warnings to China and international community about stopping the 29th Olympics in Beijing, the Chinese have haughtily ignored our warnings," IntelCenter quoted Seyfullah as saying.
"The Turkistan Islamic Party volunteers who had gone through special preparations have started urgent actions."
Seyfullah said the group bombed two public buses in Shanghai on May 5 and "took action against police" in Wenzhou on July 17 with a tractor loaded with explosives.
The group also bombed a plastic factory in Guangzhou on July 17 and bombed three public buses in Yunnan on July 21, according to IntelCenter.
The bus explosions killed at least two people and injured 14 in the southwestern city of Kunming on Monday amid a security clampdown ahead of the Olympics.
The official Xinhua news agency had blamed the blasts on "sabotage" and was seeking to find out who was responsible.
"The Turkistan Islamic Party warns China one more time," Seyfullah said, according to the IntelCenter transcript.
"Our aim is to target the most critical points related to the Olympics. We will try to attack Chinese central cities severely using the tactics that have never been employed."
He urged spectators and athletes "particularly the Muslims" planning to attend the Olympics to change their mind.
"Please do not stand together with the faithless people," he said. "The Turkistan Islamic Party volunteers will conduct violent military actions against individuals, departments, venues and activities that are related to the Olympics in China."

[wrdos]

Dear Rishirishi

So far as I know, you have been posting around your prediction that India will surpass China one day for quite a long period.
But as a serious author, don't you think it is necessary to give some sound date for your prediction? We know India will surpass China, eg by GDP or by the population, but the question is when?

It will be 10yrs, or 20yrs, or 50yrs, or 100 yrs from 2008?

You know, there is another well respected member of this forum. He predicted that China would collapse within 5 years back to 2001. The last time i found his post was in 2007. He was still declaring China would collapse within 5 years.

You are supposed to be a more serious author on this website, right?

I base my prediction on what I observe. I am not an oracle, who has the right answers. If you do not agree with me, you are welcome to counter my arguments.
Also, I have noticed that you have been arround for quite a while. You must have noticed my admiration the Parties ability to get things done, and the magnificant infrastructure that has been built in the main Chinease cities.

But I have never heard a word from you giving any critical account of the Chinease Governmnet. Perhaps you are one of the people who thinks the government never does anything wrong. What are your views on Falung Gong? Who is paying your salary??

Dear Rishirishi

I agree your prediction India will surpass China ONE DAY but I simply want to know when your prediction will come to true. You have writen tons of lengthy posts but still you gave me no prediction. or even a wild guess, of when India will surpass or beat down China.

I am a Christian in fact. I believe and the whole Bibile is telling us that Jesus will come ONE DAY to save us from the sin. But we also believe, anybody who gives a prediction, or even a wild guess, of the date when Jesus will come back, is simply an infidel.

So if it is OK for me to understand that the belief, "India beat down/surpass China ONE DAY in future", is also a religion to you. And you will never act as an infidel?

[amit]

Dear Rishirishi

I agree your prediction India will surpass China ONE DAY but I simply want to know when your prediction will come to true. You have writen tons of lengthy posts but still you gave me no prediction. or even a wild guess, of when India will surpass or beat down China.

I am a Christian in fact. I believe and the whole Bibile is telling us that Jesus will come ONE DAY to save us from the sin. But we also believe, anybody who gives a prediction, or even a wild guess, of the date when Jesus will come back, is simply an infidel.

So if it is OK for me to understand that the belief, "India beat down/surpass China ONE DAY in future", is also a religion to you. And you will never act as an infidel?

Aha Wrdos,

Beautiful play with words. Very commendable and just goes to show how the Chinese march on in yet another area to becoming the world's best - the command over the English language.

But then anything less cannot be expected from a man who has put full faith in the Book can we?

While Rishirishi can certainly answer your post let me take a stab at when India will surpass China.

But before I do that we've got to get the parameters right don't we? Meaning surpass in what? It's not exactly like a 400 meters dash where you have a very simple parameter - that is who breasts the tape first.

There are multifaceted areas to look at when one compares one country with another.

I think even you would agree that in terms of freedom - political freedom, religious freedom and heck any freedom you can think of - India has outpaced China long ago. What is still a slient gleam in the eyes of folks like you - more political and individual freedom - in China is a been there done that thing for even the poorest wretched in India.

Now that brings us to economic freedom. Here also India has a free market economy where people can do what they please (including doing nothing), go to any place in India and abroad to earn their living and open, close a business or even go bankrupt without facing the firing squad.

Now when will China come to that stage of development? Seriously can a unemployed or underemployed farmer who lives 50 km outside of Shanghai go to the city one day with family and start loitering around in the city till he finds a job (maybe at a construction site) and his wife finds a job as a domestic help - all without bribing some petty official or filling out forms in triplicate?

If he cannot do that then surely India has surpassed China?

Can the Chinese pull down the government every five years if they don't like the way it functions or maybe because they don't like the face of the Prime Minister or President? If they cannot, then surely India is more advanced than China?

That leaves us with infrastructure. It's true China is far ahead in this department of having shinny new buildings and toys like maglev's etc. It will take several generations of Indians before they can compete and have several such toys.

But you know what, when my son was small, he used to beat the hell out of my neighbour's son in school and in sports. Naturally there was a rivalry between the two. The only consolation that my neighbour's son had and he never failed to point that out to my son was that his dad - being far richer than me - used to buy him great new shinny toys, lego bricks and what not. And so he used to tell my son, so what you are better than me in studies or in sports, I have much better toys than you do. When my son was small he used to feel bad but as he grew older he realised what a pathetic joker his firend was.

OK that's the end of the jokes.

What's serious is that there's a fundamental difference between what Mainland China thinks is progress and what Indians think is progress. You see there's more to life than shinny cars, maglev trains and spanking new infrastructure. There's a whole world worth of human experiences out there which the US$1 trillion reserves cannot buy the Chinese government. Hence they are so paranoid about giving any leeway to their people - they are sacred another Tiananmen Square will happen if they do so. Look at the overreaction in Tibet.

So you see being an infidel is not so hard after all. May Jesus be with you Wrdos when the house of cards that the Communist Party of China has created comes crashing down in China as it will just as surely as Night follows Day. You will need his help and piety then in order to survive. Peace.

[Nayak]

<deleted>

[Rishirishi]

Before people here starts to blast, me, let me give an account of why I think India is going to surpass China.
1 Demographics
To be continued.

[/quote]

I base my prediction on what I observe. I am not an oracle, who has the right answers. If you do not agree with me, you are welcome to counter my arguments.
Also, I have noticed that you have been arround for quite a while. You must have noticed my admiration the Parties ability to get things done, and the magnificant infrastructure that has been built in the main Chinease cities.

But I have never heard a word from you giving any critical account of the Chinease Governmnet. Perhaps you are one of the people who thinks the government never does anything wrong. What are your views on Falung Gong? Who is paying your salary??[/quote]

Dear Rishirishi

I agree your prediction India will surpass China ONE DAY but I simply want to know when your prediction will come to true. You have writen tons of lengthy posts but still you gave me no prediction. or even a wild guess, of when India will surpass or beat down China.

I am a Christian in fact. I believe and the whole Bibile is telling us that Jesus will come ONE DAY to save us from the sin. But we also believe, anybody who gives a prediction, or even a wild guess, of the date when Jesus will come back, is simply an infidel.

So if it is OK for me to understand that the belief, "India beat down/surpass China ONE DAY in future", is also a religion to you. And you will never act as an infidel?[/quote]

So far my believe is that you are on the Payrolls of the communist party, because you are not willing to discuss the party (both negative and positive). I know how the Chinease propoganda works. If we are to take you seriously I challenge you to come with 10 things that the party is not doing well, desisions that have been bad for the Chinease people or things that you disagree with.
I also challenge to to answer whether you agree with the way Falung Gong is treated.

Let me continue.
Fundamentals of Chinease economic theory:

The desire for economic improvement can come from 2 quaters. 1 is the wish to create a better life for each individual and the other one is a desire to create a large economy, that can be used as a power base. I find that the Chinease govenment has no or little respect for the individual. I fear that the reason for this may be the desire to build a showcase "economic miracle", where the individual freedom is sacrificed for collective profit.
But so far the individual Chinease seems to be very happy with the arrangement. Most Chinease (i think) are very happy with their government. Partly because they see fantastic infrastructure comming up, partly becase of improving economic conditions. But at some extent the popularity can be attributed to propaganda and absence of critism in the media. The question remains, how the public will react to a slowdown in the economy.

Domestic economy.
let us look at the airline and mobile phone industry. Some mesure the sucess of the country with phone numbers per person or airmiles flown per person. In my opinion this is wrong, becuase it mesures the purchasing power of the economy rather then the sophistication and productiveness of the industry.

Last time I was in China, the mobile prices were about 50% expensiver then comparared to India. This despite the taxes levied on Indian mobile operators. China has 2 PSU. mobile companies. India has half a dozen large private players. Hence Indian companies are able to provide the service at much lower cost then in China. I think this is due to competition and the way the companies run their opperations. Hence Indian mobile industy is more advanced.

Airline Industry.
There are several chinease airline opperators, but they all seem to have simmilar service and pricing. The prices are way above what you pay in India. Typical price for a 2 hour flight may range from RS 5-6000 to 12000 rupees.
In India you get all kind of serivces. from LCC to Kingfirsher. It is cheaper to fly in India. Again I think Indian airline industry is ahead of Chinease.

To be cont.

[KLNMurthy]

admins, is wrdos considered a human-sounding name?

[Rahul M]

admins, is wrdos considered a human-sounding name?

since our knowledge of chinese names is limited and wrdos doesn't sound like any other word we know of, the benefit of the doubt has to be given to the poster.
of course, it could be an anagram for words !!

[Suraj]

WSJ: China Detains Man Who Put Quake-Hit School Photos on Web

A man who posted pictures on the Internet of schools that collapsed in May's massive earthquake in southwest China has been sent to a labor camp for a year, a human-rights group said, as Chinese authorities move to stifle allegations that shoddy construction exacerbated the disaster's death toll.

The man, a local school employee named Liu Shaokun, was detained in late June for allegedly "seriously disturbing social order" and disrupting post-quake reconstruction efforts, according to a report in a local government-run newspaper.

Human Rights in China, a New York-based advocacy group, said Mr. Liu's wife was told last week that he must undergo a year of "re-education through labor." Chinese authorities can detain people for such "re-education" for as long as four years without formal charges or a trial.

China's government has ratcheted up efforts to silence parents calling for investigations into the collapse of schools during the 7.9-magnitude temblor on May 12. Thousands of students were among the nearly 70,000 people confirmed dead in the disaster. More than 18,000 others remain missing, according to the government. Many parents say poor construction and government negligence were major contributors to the failure of schools to withstand the quake.

[Singha]

and this pathetic "nation" rears up on its hind legs and claims to be superior to India ? hahahaha.

[pradeepe]

I guess in this modern world, there's only one nation that can bury 70,000 dead and still have the temerity to kick its people repeatedly in their teeth just for opening their mouths if for anything but to weep.

The closest this comes to is stalin's regime and that was half a century ago in what should be considered modern oiropes middles ages.

[putnanja]

The image conscious CCP at work

Beijing's advice on looking good for the Olympics

Polishing up Beijing for the Olympics has extended to the city government telling residents what not to wear, advising against too many colors, white socks with black shoes, and parading in pajamas.
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The advice, on top of campaigns to cut out public spitting and promote orderly lining up, was handed out in booklets to 4 million households ahead of the Olympics, an official said Thursday.

The etiquette book giving advice on everything from shaking hands to how to stand is part of a slew of admonitions on manners, said Zheng Mojie, deputy director of the Office of Capital Spiritual Civilization Construction Commission.

"The level of civility of the whole city has improved and a sound cultural and social environment has been assured for the success of the Beijing Olympic Games," she said.
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Meanwhile, continuing saga of chinese boot-licking by IOC...

Olympic official: I didn't know about Web reversal

BEIJING - An Olympic official said Thursday he felt like the "fall guy" after promising reporters at the games they would have uncensored Internet access, only to find that the Chinese had blocked certain Web sites.
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Kevan Gosper, the press commission head of the International Olympic Committee, also said he suspects the IOC leadership probably knew about the change.

Gosper said he was startled to find out earlier this week that Web sites for Amnesty International or others dealing with Tibet, the 1989 protests at Tiananmen Square or the spiritual group Falun Gong would be blocked to reporters at the Olympics Main Press Center in Beijing.

China's communist government routinely filters its citizens' access to the Internet. But for months Gosper, IOC President Jacques Rogge and others have publicly said Beijing agreed to unblock the Web during the games, and they touted the shift as a sign of the Olympics' liberalizing effect on China.

"I have to accept that I appear to be the fall guy and may be the fall guy," Gosper said in an interview with AP Television News.

"I suspect an agreement has been reached, or an understanding has been reached," Gosper said. "It may well have been done by the executive board, done in another place by very senior people in the IOC. It may have taken into consideration new circumstances in this year leading up to the games where there has been quite a lot of trauma around China, and within China."
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makes you wonder why they have not blocked BR in China? edited.