Let us Understand the Chinese

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RayC
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Re: Question on chinese racism

Post by RayC »

prashanth wrote:
G Subramaniam wrote:How does chinese racism affect NRIs in Hongkong, Malaysia, PRC, Taiwan and Singapore
They aren't racists when it comes to non mongoloids, I've heard.
The Han Chinese are real racists.



Han culturism differentiates between the culture of the Han, the inner people (nei ren) and the barbarians, the outer people (wai ren). This concept is a hand me down from the time of the Shang Dynasty, who political centre was located North of the Yellow River.

The Chinese differentiate between raw barbarians (shengfan) or the unassimilated people and the “cooked barbarians” (shufan) or those who were assimilated and yet were not the Han people e.g. the Han Chinese separated the ‘cooked’ Li of the coast of Hainan from the ‘uncooked’ Li of the central forest.

Barbarians were given generic names in the Chinese classics and histories: the Yi barbarians to the East, the Man to the South, Rong to the West and Di to the North.

Until the 1930s, the names of the outgroups (wai ren) were commonly written in characters with the animal radical: the Di, a northern tribe were linked to the dog; the Man and Min of the South were characterised with reptiles; the Qiangs were written with a sheep radical. This reflected the Han Chinese conviction that civilisation and culture were linked with humanity; alien groups living outside the pale of Han society were regarded as inhuman savages.

The custom of sharply distinguishing between the inner and outer people went along with the calling China the Middle Kingdom (zhong guo) , which began by ruling the Central plain (zhongyang) in North China. Rather than using outright military conquest, the theory of ‘using the Chinese ways to transform the barbarians (yongxiabianyi)’ was promulgated. By cultural absorption or racial integration through intermarriage, a barbarian could become a Han Chinese (Hanhua).

Excerpted from:

An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of China
http://books.google.com/books?id=IOM8qF ... t#PPA95,M1

This should be an eye-opener.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by RayC »

Sun Yat Sen, the founder of Chinese Republic overthrew the Qing Dynasty which ruled over all of China from 1644 to 1911 and proclaim when he launch his rebellion against the Qing Dynasty which was ruled by Manchus:

“ In order to restore our national independence, we must first restore the Chinese nation. In order to restore the Chinese nation, we must drive the barbarian Manchus back to the Changbai Mountains. In order to get rid of the barbarians, we must first overthrow the present tyrannical, dictatorial, ugly, and corrupt Qing government. Fellow countrymen, a revolution is the only means to overthrow the Qing government!"
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by G Subramaniam »

The chinese seem to be a more intelligent form of muslim

Both are focused on political power
except that the muslims use religion as a cover and the chinese dont
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by JE Menon »

It does not help to look at China through the Muslim prism. The Chinese have a very old civilisational lineage, like we do. Their worldview and philosophical underpinnings may vary from ours, but in many ways - non-proselytising, for instance - they are quite similar. Sure, they are using a "my way or the highway" approach which has similarities to Islam, but it ends there. There is plenty of room for interpretation, and nothing, judging from their economic turnaround and ideological flexibility with regard to Hong Kong, is "sacred" so to speak...

Islam is a different ballgame.

However, the phrase "a more intelligent form of Muslim" suggests that all Muslims are somehow lower. I strongly suggest that you do not persist with this sort of stuff.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Johann »

Hi Ray,

There's still a lot of xenophobia in China today but its mostly directed outwards (the Japanese in particular). The communist party has discouraged the kind of internal racist rhetoric described in those links.

What they've tried to do is expand the definition of 'Chinese' beyond the Han to include all minorities. And in just about every case except the Tibetans and the Uighurs, theyve succeeded.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by RayC »

Johann wrote:Hi Ray,

There's still a lot of xenophobia in China today but its mostly directed outwards (the Japanese in particular). The communist party has discouraged the kind of internal racist rhetoric described in those links.

What they've tried to do is expand the definition of 'Chinese' beyond the Han to include all minorities. And in just about every case except the Tibetans and the Uighurs, theyve succeeded.

Not quite.

I am trying to study the same for an article.

They profess one thing and do exactly the other.

In so far as Xinjiang, while China’ profess religious freedom, the reality is that Muslims in Xinjiang have restricted religious freedom as in Tibet. There is state repression. The Chinese demolished a mosque in Kalpin county near Aksu city in Xinjiang's southwest since they refused to put up posters pertaining to the Olympics

XINJIANG: Imams and mosque education under state control
By Igor Rotar, Forum 18 News Service <http://www.forum18.org>

The imam of the central mosque in the town of Turpan, north east of China's Xinjiang region, admitted to Forum 18 News Service in early September that the Chinese authorities name all imams to local mosques. Imams also have to attend regular meetings of the national religious committees at their town administration, where they are told what they can do and are ordered to preach peace and condemn terrorism in their sermons. Local adult Muslims, mainly ethnic Uighurs, can learn about their faith only in certain mosques where the imam has gained special approval, while children are banned. "

http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=411&pdf=Y
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by darshan »

Probably following is OT.
Once, one oriental guy referred to me as an asian. Somehow I lost it and balked back at him to let him know just as middle eastern is not an asian, russian is not an asian, I am not asian either. I am from subcontinent and preferred to be called Bharatiya or Indian.

Admins, can we have a poll to see as what people from subcontinent like to be referred?
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Johann »

RayC wrote:
Johann wrote:Hi Ray,

There's still a lot of xenophobia in China today but its mostly directed outwards (the Japanese in particular). The communist party has discouraged the kind of internal racist rhetoric described in those links.

What they've tried to do is expand the definition of 'Chinese' beyond the Han to include all minorities. And in just about every case except the Tibetans and the Uighurs, theyve succeeded.

Not quite.

I am trying to study the same for an article.

They profess one thing and do exactly the other.

In so far as Xinjiang, while China’ profess religious freedom, the reality is that Muslims in Xinjiang have restricted religious freedom as in Tibet.
Ray,

As I said the Uighurs and the Tibetans are the very notable exceptions - they are exceptions because they refuse to adopt dual identities, ie that they are Chinese and Uighur, or Chinese and Tibetan the way that Manchus are Manchus and Chinese.

So Manchu or Hakka, or any other Chinese minorities else have no problem beating up on the Uighurs or Tibetans who refuse to do likewise.

There are large numbers of Muslims in Gansu and Yunnan provinces as well, but because they dont reject the Chinese tag, and dont have separatist tendencies enjoy greater religious freedom.

This goes back to the PRC's strategy of oficially de-linking 'Chinese' and Han. You dont *have* to be Han to be allowed to succeed, but you *must* accept and proclaim being 'Chinese'. If you reject the Chinese identity the state comes after your culture with hammer and tongs
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by G Subramaniam »

JE Menon wrote:It does not help to look at China through the Muslim prism. The Chinese have a very old civilisational lineage, like we do. Their worldview and philosophical underpinnings may vary from ours, but in many ways - non-proselytising, for instance - they are quite similar. Sure, they are using a "my way or the highway" approach which has similarities to Islam, but it ends there. There is plenty of room for interpretation, and nothing, judging from their economic turnaround and ideological flexibility with regard to Hong Kong, is "sacred" so to speak...

Islam is a different ballgame.

However, the phrase "a more intelligent form of Muslim" suggests that all Muslims are somehow lower. I strongly suggest that you do not persist with this sort of stuff.

OK

G.S
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by G Subramaniam »

DNA studies in south china
--

DNA studies show that the south chinese are a mestizo race having Han Y chromosomes and Thai etc Maternal chromosomes

meaning sometime in the last 3000 years, the lands south of the yangtze were raped and colonised by the north chinese
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Sanjay M »

Let us understand that China is Raping Darfur:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7503428.stm
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by RayC »

Johann

The Moslems you talk of are Huis.

They are Hans who converted as I understand.

Of late, the minorities are showing their separate identity like the Miaos.

Also check "Nationalities Conflict and Ethnicity in the People's Republic of China, With Special Reference to the Yi in the Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture"
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by RayC »

http://www.barcelona2004.org/esp/banco_ ... ROSSER.pdf

THE PROSPECTS FOR THE LONG-TERM SURVIVAL OF NONHAN
MINORITY LANGUAGES IN THE SOUTH OF CHINA.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Johann »

Ray,

Thanks for the reference.

Yes, the Hui are largely the descendants of Han who married Persians/Arabs/Turks and converted.

The specific concept I was referring to was "Zhonghua minzu". This is a lot like the USSR's attempt to define 'Soviet' as being more than just Orthodox or Russian speaking.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by shyam »

Is there any information available on populated/inhabitable area in China? How does that compare to similar area of India? Is that larger, comparable or less?
RayC
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by RayC »

Johann wrote:Ray,

Thanks for the reference.

Yes, the Hui are largely the descendants of Han who married Persians/Arabs/Turks and converted.

The specific concept I was referring to was "Zhonghua minzu". This is a lot like the USSR's attempt to define 'Soviet' as being more than just Orthodox or Russian speaking.
Could you give me some references for my study?

I will be obliged.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by rajrang »

The Chinese love insulting India whenever possible - They do not like the future Number 2. Paranoia or "normal" reaction of a Number 1 to a Number 2 in any heirarchy?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Beij ... 233667.cms
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by shyam »

Don't blame chinese for this. They know who the king/queen is and who are puppets.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Jaspreet »

I see this as an extremely petty behaviour, not a recognition of puppet and king.

They claim to have a great civilization, but all that I know of them is piracy, bullying and racist behaviour.

If copying and piracy were their major traits in the past then one has to ask whether all their so-called inventions are infact a piracy of the work of some poor culture that is now long lost in the mists of time.

Edited for clarity.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by ramana »

This weekend I talked to an overseas Chinese who visited Beijing on work. She saw a Buddhist temple and went in . She had to show her passport as its forbidden for locals to go to places of worship. Her other observation was that construction for the Olympics is going on at a rapid pace. The place is really transformed in two years.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by sanjaykumar »

The Chinese love insulting India whenever possible - They do not like the future Number 2. Paranoia or "normal" reaction of a Number 1 to a Number 2 in any heirarchy?


My respect for MMS just went up a few notches. There does seem to be something brewing, MMS may have come to some serious understanding with the Americans.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by vsudhir »

sanjaykumar wrote:The Chinese love insulting India whenever possible - They do not like the future Number 2. Paranoia or "normal" reaction of a Number 1 to a Number 2 in any heirarchy?


My respect for MMS just went up a few notches. There does seem to be something brewing, MMS may have come to some serious understanding with the Americans.
I agree.
Someone was mentioning in the TibetWar thread almost as soon as MMS settled back into the PMO after his last Beijing visit, infrastruc and military preparations all along the Indo-Tibet border heated up with uncanny urgency.

Something definitely might be afoot. But then again, who knows? Might just be that we're reading too much into a crude snub that the chinis are definitely not above dealing out.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by rajrang »

vsudhir wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:The Chinese love insulting India whenever possible - They do not like the future Number 2. Paranoia or "normal" reaction of a Number 1 to a Number 2 in any heirarchy?


My respect for MMS just went up a few notches. There does seem to be something brewing, MMS may have come to some serious understanding with the Americans.
I agree.
Someone was mentioning in the TibetWar thread almost as soon as MMS settled back into the PMO after his last Beijing visit, infrastruc and military preparations all along the Indo-Tibet border heated up with uncanny urgency.

Something definitely might be afoot. But then again, who knows? Might just be that we're reading too much into a crude snub that the chinis are definitely not above dealing out.
India should return the snub by sending a real junior Government official. He should also carry a list of illnesses and minor committments that other senior individuals including Sonia Gandhi have and so none of them could make the visit.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by G Subramaniam »

A further aspect to consider about china ( and the similar korea )
is their voluntary embrace of Ejs and the fact that their women are desperate to marry a white guy

I saw a survey where a chinese / korean woman earning $60k was willing to marry a white guy earning $30k

I personally have seen chinese girls from rich families marry lower-middle class white gym trainers
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by ramana »

Read the books of Amy Tan. The idea that is sold to the Chinese women is that they will face oppression in their lives and homes if they partner other Chinese men who are old fashioned. This is not true but is a social reality. Same stuff is peddled by the NRI women writers.

SJM used to have a Vietnamese lady commentator who had married white and while reviewing the Tan books made this comment that she is not oppsoed to the idea of marrying whites for she did, but not for the reasons that Amy Tan has proposed. I read this in the mid 90s so dont ask for a ref or source.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by sanjaykumar »

But a Pakistani Pathan (brown complexion) who had married a white woman conducted himself as if he too had turned white. The most pathetic thing to see.

I call this the white-by-proxy effect and would be interested in further exploring this. Of course in most Hindu households in the West, the very overt instructions are not to marry white, never to marry Orientals and don't even think of marrying Blacks. We is all racists, I am learning to live with it.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by G Subramaniam »

The other thing that is wierd about the chinese and koreans is that despite a strong buddhist influence, they have a lot of gratutious animal torture, even worse than halal
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Bina Bullworker »

The other thing that is wierd about the chinese and koreans is that despite a strong buddhist influence, they have a lot of gratutious animal torture, even worse than halal
The other thing that is wierd about the chinese and koreans is that despite a strong buddhist influence, they have a lot of gratutious animal torture, even worse than halal
I think Budda only talked about inner peace but not outer peace?
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by archan »

sanjaykumar wrote:But a Pakistani Pathan (brown complexion) who had married a white woman conducted himself as if he too had turned white. The most pathetic thing to see.

I call this the white-by-proxy effect and would be interested in further exploring this. Of course in most Hindu households in the West, the very overt instructions are not to marry white, never to marry Orientals and don't even think of marrying Blacks. We is all racists, I am learning to live with it.
Racist or not, those marriages don't work a lot of the time IMHO. Indians want stability in their married lives more than most other cultures. I have seen Indian (mostly 2nd generation) girls getting married to whites and it seems to work more. However, girls from other cultures coming into an Indian family is difficult. I know of a case when the kid (Indian) had been dating this white girl for years and they decide to get married. After 3 months, the girl asks for a divorce. I was left wondering, they were having all sorts of fun for years, why the heck did he have to marry her! It just doesn't work barring exceptions. However, if you look at the kind of couples where the woman is a young Asian (but not from the Indian subcontinent) and the guy is an older white man - there seem to be a lot of them.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Philip »

Check into "China Bounder" and his new book to truly understand modern China.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ntity.html

'ChinaBounder' sex blogger reveals his identity
Last Updated: 11:43PM BST 17/07/2008

An anonymous British blogger who wrote about his sexual escapades with Chinese women for two years has revealed his identity as he publishes a controversial new book.
David Marriot, who claims to be an Oxbridge graduate, sparked a cyberspace man-hunt after he set up a blog where he posted entries boasting of his many and varied carnal encounters with the women of Shanghai.

Using the name ChinaBounder, the self-styled western Lothario sparked outrage among the men of Shanghai with his graphic descriptions of his success with Chinese women.

The online campaign drew over 17,000 visitors and Marriot was threatened with murder and castration by conservative Chinese claiming he had blackened their country's good name.

Article continuesadvertisement
However, although he was thought to be an English teacher in his thirties, his cover was never completely blown.

Now he has decided to reveal his identity in a publicity attempt for his new book, Fault Lines on the Face of China: 50 Reasons Why China May Never Be Great.

The book itself will add further insult to Chinese injury as it dismisses their country's attempts to tout itself as a global force.

"Modern China has displayed a history of over-reacting to any form of criticism, not just against the country or the Communist party per se," Marriot told The Guardian.

"Chinese leaders have fashioned a response based on what they perceive the people of China to be, and a few elitists now often decide what offends people of the motherland." he added

Zhang Jiehai, a professor of psychology at the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences, who led the online campaign, has urged Chinese readers not to buy it.

"ChinaBounder said he had fifty reasons to assume China will not be great," said Zhang in an online statement.

"In contrary, I have at least one reason to say Britain can be great...... But one thing I believe in is that there is a chance for China to become great again, a far greater chance than for Britain."

The self-confessed Casanova also said he had written his sexlog as a "mental purge and colonic for my sexual adventures" and in an attempt to secure his "fifteen minutes of fame".

Excerpt from "ChinaBounder":

"Well, it’s linked to another question I’m often asked -- am I making any money from this blog? Why don’t I plaster it with Google Ad-Sense ads, just like all the other blogs? That’s not for me. The blog’s not about making money (or just making love for that matter). And neither is my daily presentation of ‘Fault Lines’ to do with money.

But now I hear others are making money out of ‘ChinaBounder’ – and in a rather inventive way.

Now the way I see it, most commercialism in China, though aggressive, lacks inventiveness. It’s all a matter of copying. If any product or service is successful, it gets copied. For most Chinese ‘entrepreneurs’ the way to make money is to follow the crowd, rather than to cut your own path. That’s part of the reason why China has invented jack shit in the last few centuries."

PS:On my travels,there is a particular fleamarket in London that I regularly patronise.Some of he stallkeepers know me.One particular gent is famous for his African curios and handicrafts personally sourced from various parts of Africa.Over the last few years he has been outraged at what is happening to the poor Africans.Their beautiful individual handicrafts and native art are being copied en-masse by the Chinese who are flooding the continent with cheap copies,putting the poor Afrticans out of work and livelihood.The same thing is being attempted by the Chjinese in India.Silk weavers from Kanchipuram and other parts of South India have been taken to China where their skills/designs are being videofilmed and copied.Pick up any cheap item that lasts about 24 hours and 99% of the time it would've been made in China.China Bounder is right.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Philip »

More excerpts from inside China,how the Chinese.especially the political,military and instituional elite cannot tolerate any criticism of their country.

China's greatest trick:

"The greatest trick China’s Communist Party ever pulled was teaching the people not to think.

This is why while China is the greatest political conundrum in the world, its population is almost wholly politically apathetic. The entire political discourse in China boils down to a single sentence: ‘Things are better than they used to be.’

And for the future? ‘Things can only get better.’ That’s what most people I talk to in China tell me.

The two phrases pair like a one-two punch of political apathy.

Sure, in an absolute sense, there is some truth to those statements. After spending multiple decades killing around 70 million of its own citizens, China’s Communist Party has indeed become more benign."


http://chinabounder.blogspot.com/

In 2007, Hu Jintao, China’s president, ordered officials to ensure the internet was ‘ethically inspiring.’ He said he wanted the Communist Party to help ‘purify the internet environment,’ and said that ‘whether we can cope with the internet is a matter that affects the development of socialist culture, the security of information, and the stability of the state.’

China’s top political body, the Politburo, added ‘development and administration of internet culture must stick to the direction of advanced socialist culture, adhere to correct propaganda guidance.’

It was vital, they said, to ‘consolidate the guiding status of Marxism in the ideological sphere.’1 Perhaps the Communist Party wishes that Karl Marx had invented the internet.

But control, not ‘guidance’ is what lies at the heart of the internet for China’s government. Whereas in the West the great achievement of the internet is that it allows each user to create their own individual world, for China its purpose is to spread government propaganda and to consolidate control over society and individual freedom.

One of the strongest expressions of individual freedom that the internet facilitates is blogging. Blogging allows everyone a voice, and while the sheer number of blogs means each voice might not always be heard, the voices in most societies shout freely.

The Chinese government is terrified of what blogging represents. A society in which every voice is free to speak is the antithesis of the goals of today’s Chinese government.

Beijing would be happy to be able to be able to design a Marxist-style box to control China’s burgeoning blogosphere. In 2006 the government looked into the feasibility of requiring all bloggers to register with their real names.

Due to the complexity of such a registration system it has not, at the time of writing, been implemented. But ‘a real name system will be an unavoidable choice if China wants to standardize and develop its blog industry,’ says Huang Chengqing, head of the Internet Society of China.2

The true meanings of the words ‘standardize and develop’ can more accurately be described as to ‘shackle and restrict’ to the point of total control those who ‘anonymously disseminate irresponsible and untrue information via the internet, bringing about very bad influences not only to individuals but to society as a whole.’3

In Chinese terms, ‘irresponsible and untrue’ information is anything which does not agree with the government line.

According to Reporters without Borders, worldwide there are 61 people in jail for posting ‘subversive’ comment on a blog or website. Fifty-two of them are in China, giving the country five or six times the total number of imprisoned voices in the rest of the globe.4 “China is by far the world’s biggest prison for bloggers and cyber-dissidents” says the organization.5

The Reporters without Borders 2007 China report says that “… self-censorship is obviously in full force. Just five years ago, many people thought Chinese society and politics would be revolutionized by the Internet, a supposedly uncontrollable medium. Now, with China enjoying increasing geopolitical influence, people are wondering the opposite, whether perhaps China’s Internet model, based on censorship and surveillance, may one day be imposed on the rest of the world.”

The organization also says that “China keeps a tight grip on what is written and downloaded by users and spends an enormous amount on Internet surveillance equipment and hires armies of informants and cyber-police.”

“It also has the political weight to force the companies in the sector - such as Yahoo!, Google, Microsoft and Cisco Systems - to do what it wants them to, and all have agreed to censor their search-engines to filter out websites overcritical of the authorities. This makes the regime’s job very much easier because these firms are the main entry-points to the Internet. If a website is not listed by these search-engines, material posted on them has about as much chance of being found as a message in a bottle thrown into the sea.” 6

Another great assistance to the Chinese government in its quest to silence freely-expressed opinions is, sadly, the Chinese people themselves.

In China, the compulsion to conform creates a ‘herd mentality’ which dominates to such an overwhelming extent that those who do try to speak out with a different voice are routinely attacked or ostracized. This is masked as citizen action taken in order to subjugate those individuals who step outside preconceived notions of morality.

There are segments of Chinese society today that even free of government encouragement seek to impose a definition of right and wrong on other people.7

A clear example of this was the ‘ChinaBounder’ case, which again exposed contemporary Chinese society’s inability to deal with the freedoms that blogging offers.

The ChinaBounder blog detailed the sex life and social opinions of a Western expatriate character living in Shanghai. Within a few weeks of the blog being posted on an American blog site, it was attracting vitriolic and abusive comments from Chinese readers.

The blog really caught fire when Zhang Jiehai, a professor of psychology and member of the Shanghai Academy of Sciences, wrote a long and impassioned denunciation of the blog and its writer.

“Today, with tremendous anger, I will tell you the story of an immoral foreigner and I call upon all Chinese compatriots to get together and kick this immoral foreigner out of China” he began, going on to give a recap of some of the things Chinabounder had written about. “But what makes it intolerable for me” Zhang wrote, “is that this piece of garbage deliberately hurt the feelings of the Chinese nation… and he openly spoke to divide China.”

“This undisguised disclosure of the mind is too shocking!” wrote Zhang. “I am a researcher in psychology. There is only one reason why this piece of garbage would meticulously and laboriously write out his bedtime dalliances, and that is because he is a pervert.”8

Zhang Jiehai also sent out a clarion call to the men of China. “I also have something to tell the Chinese men: Please think about how these foreign trash have dallied with your sisters and made fun of your impotence. Do you want to say that this is no big deal? Do you still want to treat the foreigners as important? Do you still quiver when you see foreigners? Please straighten out your backbones."

Zhang’s angry protest sparked a manhunt. The ‘ChinaBounder’ story leaped into the national press and then the international press, being picked up by the BBC, CNN, Time Magazine and newspapers in every continent in the world.

‘ChinaBounder’ was in fact created and written by one of the authors of this book, David Marriott.

What was so interesting – and frightening -- about the reaction to the blog was that it laid bare some of the attitudes beneath the surface of the skin of modern Chinese society.

There were thousands of comments, both on the blog itself and through email, expressing extreme hatred and threats of violence, offering sickening sexual violence and mutilation not just to ‘Chinabounder’ but also to his father, mother, and any other relatives that he might have. Online opinion in China was outraged.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by RayC »

Olympics invite: China denies snubbing PM
17 Jul 2008, 1736 hrs IST,PTI

BEIJING: China has denied that it snubbed Prime Minister Manmohan Singh by not extending an invitation for the Olympics opening ceremony and said that Indian leaders were welcome to the event.

Beijing also clarified that it is the Olympic committee of the nation concerned which invites the head of a government or state.

“As the host of Beijing Olympics, China welcomes heads of states, including Indian leaders to attend the relevant activities,” Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said at a regular bi-weekly media briefing here.

He was responding to a query on reports in a section of the Indian press that China had invited UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi to the opening ceremony of Olympics, while ignoring premier Singh.

“China attaches great importance to strategic partnership with India and exchanges with Indian leaders. The report is not in line with the fact and is not beneficial to our bilateral relations,” he said.

He also said that the heads of states and governments have been invited to the Olympic Games.

“I would like to reiterate here that according to the IOC stipulation and the Olympic custom, heads of governments and states shall be invited by the Olympic Committees of their own countries and attend the Olympics as accredited distinguished guests. We respect the decision of the Olympic Committees,” he said.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Olym ... 246219.cms
This flip flop is deliberate.

It is in consonance with the Chinese theory of Legalism.

What the Chinese govt has done is Shu - It was basically a method to ensure that none could fathom the mind and motivation of the ruler. It was done so that no one could upstage the ruler. For Ruler read Communist China Govt.

And in consonance with Shi - ensuring methods where the supremacy of the post of the ruler (China) through a set of Machiavellian intrigues wherein the ruler is not upstaged by others.

Therefore, it has kept India guessing and insulted.

Clever tykes, these Chinese!
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Big Analysis, but worth reading - China's next India war

Post by Z_Collin »

From http://www.covert.co.in/brahma.htm

China's next India war

CHINA’S RAPIDLY ACCUMULATING POWER is emboldening Beijing to pursue a more muscular foreign policy. After having touted its “peaceful rise”, it has shown a creeping propensity to flex its muscles — a tendency that has become more pronounced since it surprised the world with an anti-satellite weapon test in January 2007. Once the Beijing Olympics are over, it may not be long before China takes its gloves off. In fact, over the past year, its actions have ranged from provocatively seeking to assert its jurisdiction over islets claimed by Vietnam and staging large-scale war games in the South and East China Seas, to showcasing its new nuclear submarine capability and whipping up diplomatic spats with countries that grant official hospitality to the Dalai Lama.

What stands out the most is the perceptible hardening of China’s stance towards India. This is manifest from the Chinese military assertiveness on the ground — reflected in rising cross-border incursions — the supply of Chinese arms to rebels in India’s Northeast, the instigation of the Gorkhaland agitation via Nepal connections, and the waging of intermittent cyber-warfare by targeting official Indian websites. From Chinese forces in November 2007 destroying some makeshift Indian Army bunkers near Doka La, at the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet trijunction, to the Chinese Foreign Minister’s May 2007 message that Beijing no longer was bound by a 2005 agreement that any border-related settlement should not disturb settled populations, bellicosity has been writ large.

Recent unfriendly actions include the post-midnight summoning of the Indian Ambassador in Beijing, slighting visiting External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee by cancelling his scheduled meeting with Premier Wen Jiabao, and deputing a junior functionary to receive earthquake-related relief from Mukherjee. These and other actions run counter to the stated aim of the high-level visits between the two countries to build a stable Sino-Indian relationship based on equilibrium and forward thinking. The public statements coming out from such visits, of course, are deceptively all sweetness and light.
The big question is: What objectives is China seeking to achieve by hardening its position? Indeed, it has gone to the extent of warning India of another 1962-style invasion through one of its state-run institutes. In a recent Mandarin-language commentary posted on the website of the International Institute of Strategic Studies of China, http://www.chinaiiss.org/, the author, using an assumed name, cautioned an “arrogant India” not “to be evil” or else Chinese forces in war “will not pull back 30 kilometres” like in 1962. Such belligerence, which has led to more than three dozen Chinese military forays into Sikkim alone this year, has prompted India to redeploy forces by beefing up defences in the vulnerable Siliguri Corridor, stationing Sukhoi-30s in Tezpur and initiating moves to reactivate seven abandoned airstrips along the Himalayas.

China’s motives remain a puzzle. Yet there are several disturbing parallels between what is happening now and the events between 1959 and 1962 that led to the Chinese invasion. That aggression had been cleverly timed to coincide with the Cuban Missile Crisis, which brought the United States and the Soviet Union to the brink of a nuclear Armageddon. Consider the following parallels:

» Like in the pre-war period, it has now again become commonplace internationally to speak of India and China in the same breath. The aim of “Mao’s India war” in 1962, as Harvard professor Roderick MacFarquhar has called it, were mainly political: to cut India to size by demolishing what it represented — a pluralistic, democratic model to China’s totalitarian political system. As Premier Zhou Enlai publicly admitted then, the war was intended “to teach India a lesson”. The swiftness and force with which Mao Zedong managed to teach India a lesson not only discredited the Indian model in the eyes of the world, but boosted China’s international image and consolidated the Chinese strongman’s internal power to the extent that he could go from his disastrous 1957-61 Great Leap Forward — the greatest genocide in modern history, surpassing even the Holocaust — to wreaking more damage in the name of the Cultural Revolution. It has taken India more than 45 years to again be paired with China — a comparison Beijing viscerally loathes.

» In the Mao years, China instigated and armed major insurgencies in India’s Northeast. That included the Naga rebels, with the China-trained Thuingaleng Muivah still the military chief of the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (Isak-Muivah faction); the Mizo guerrilla movement whose leader Laldenga was openly embraced by Chinese leaders; and Manipur’s so-called People’s Liberation Army. Such assistance ceased after Mao’s death. But today, China may be coming full circle, with Chinese-made arms increasingly flowing into guerrilla ranks in the Northeast. Although an 11-year-old ceasefire between Naga militants and New Delhi has brought peace to Nagaland, several other parts of the Northeast are today wracked by insurgencies, allowing Beijing to fish in troubled waters.

» Like in the period up to 1962, there is a mismatch today between Indian talk and capability, offering a potential incentive to China to try and put India in its place. India’s power pretensions today are such that it believes it can punch above its weight. Yet the gaps in its defences make the parallel with the pre-1962 period glaring.

More than a decade after it went overtly nuclear, the country still lacks a barely minimal deterrent against China. To have peace with China, India needs to be able to defend peace. The advantages China has over India in military infrastructure and logistics, size of conventional forces and being on the upper heights can be neutralised only through an effective nuclear-missile capability. But India has still to deploy its first Beijing-reachable missile. Three decades after China tested its first intercontinental ballistic missile, India doesn’t have an ICBM programme even in the pipeline, although it is spending a staggering $3.4 billion on a lunar project bereft of security benefits. While Jawaharlal Nehru made the mistake of chasing romantic goals, the present Prime Minister has consciously chosen deal-making over deterrent-building.

» Mirroring the confusion in New Delhi’s Beijing policy from the mid-1950s to 1962, India today lacks clarity on the ends and means of its strategy vis-à-vis China. Just as there was a propensity in the pre-war period to take Chinese statements at face value and condone furtive Chinese moves, including the nibbling at Indian territory, the Indian establishment today willingly makes allowances for China’s assertiveness. Nothing better illustrates this than Army Chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor’s public assertion that India is as culpable as China in committing cross-border intrusions. His shocking statement not only made light of the increasing number of Chinese incursions, but also implicitly condoned China’s calculated refusal to clarify the frontline. To say the “Chinese have a different perception” of the frontline, as he did, is to disregard the fact that it suits China not to clarify the line of control and keep India under military pressure.

Such wanton indulgence — reminiscent of India’s pre-war miscalculations — can only embolden China to step up intrusions. In another reminder of that era, New Delhi first sought to sweep under the rug the November 2007 Chinese military action near Doka La, only to sheepishly admit the truth four months later, with Pranab Mukherjee telling Parliament last March that although Beijing accepts the Sikkim-Tibet border “as settled in the Anglo-Sikkim Convention of 1890”, “some bunkers have been destroyed and some activities have taken place”.

» Just as India retreated to a defensive position in the border negotiations with Beijing at the beginning of the 1960s after having undermined its leverage through its formal acceptance of the “Tibet region of China”, New Delhi today has drawn back to an untenable negotiating position. Instead of gently shining the spotlight on the core issue of Tibet and China’s continuing occupation of Aksai Chin, India is willing to discuss the newly assertive Chinese claim on Tawang. By contrast, Beijing sticks to its tested old line that what it occupies is Chinese territory and what it claims is also Chinese territory. So what it claims has to be on the negotiating table — a cynical stance India meekly countenances. As a consequence, the wounds of that 32-day war have been kept open by China’s claims to additional Indian areas even as it holds on to the territorial gains of that conflict.

The reality is that the trans-Himalayan military equations have been significantly changed by China’s July 2006 opening of the new railway to Lhasa. The railway, which is now being extended southward to Xigatse and then beyond to Nepal and to two separate points along the Indian border, arms Beijing with a rapid military deployment capability. It may not be a coincidence that China’s growing hardline approach has followed its infrastructure advances on the vast but sparsely populated Tibetan plateau, including the building of the railway and new airfields and highways. It is now constructing the world’s highest airport at Ngari, on the southwestern edge of Tibet. India can expect little respite from the direct and surrogate pressure China is mounting. Through Burma, Bangladesh and Nepal, it will seek to destabilise the Northeast. It will continue to prop up Pakistan militarily to help keep India boxed in on the subcontinent. In fact, it is now seeking to do a Burma in Sri Lanka by emerging as a key arms supplier to Colombo and building a billion-dollar port at Hambantota. More broadly, China has aggressively pursued port-related projects in the Indian Ocean rim countries. The symbols of such Chinese activity include Hambantota, Chittagong and Gwadar, now being expanded into a deepwater naval base. China’s ravenous pursuit of resources, including in India’s periphery, is another factor New Delhi cannot ignore. Constraints on resources are likely to become pronounced as more and more Indians and Chinese gain income to embrace modern comforts. The global demand for resources is set to soar, along with their prices. Beijing’s energy-import needs have come handy to expand Chinese maritime presence along vital sea-lanes.

An imperial energy age indeed appears to be dawning as a result of China’s aggressive resources-related diplomacy. Consider the following developments:

» The emergence of a 21st-century, energy-related Great Game, with China outmanoeuvring India. Beijing has used its rising energy imports as justification for openly advancing military objectives. While conserving its own oil-and-gas reserves, it has stepped up imports — a strategy it is also pursuing on key minerals. For example, it has more iron-ore reserves than India, yet 52% of Indian exports to China now consist of just one item — iron ore.

» Determined efforts to assert control over energy supplies and transport routes, including mercantilist moves to lock up long-term supplies. Such is China’s emphasis on legal ownership that it has been buying energy assets in faraway lands often at inflated prices.

The popular perception is that Chinese and Indian energy companies are engaged in fierce bidding wars to acquire overseas assets. But the cash-rich Chinese companies have easily beaten Indian competition everywhere. The only exception was the Akpo deepwater oil field in Nigeria, where India’s ONGC won the right to buy South Atlantic Petroleum’s 45% stake. The irony, however, is that New Delhi blocked ONGC from picking up that stake on grounds that the $2-billion investment entailed unacceptable risks as the Nigerian majority stakeholder was a dubious, politically manipulated shell company. But no sooner had ONGC backed out from the deal than the state-run China National Offshore Oil Corp. (CNOOC) Ltd., China’s largest offshore oil producer, signed an accord on 9 January 2006, to pay $2.27 billion for the same 45% stake.

» China is actively pursuing access-gaining projects along the major trade arteries in the Indian Ocean rim. Consequently, it is beginning to position itself along the sea-lanes from the Persian Gulf to the South China Sea.
With an increasingly assertive China to the north, a China-allied Pakistan on the west, a Chinese-influenced Burma to the east, and growing Chinese naval interest in the Indian Ocean, India has to foil its strategic encirclement. India’s energy-security interests, in fact, demand that its Navy play a greater role in the Indian Ocean, a crucial international passageway for oil deliveries. In addition to safeguarding the sea-lanes, the Navy has to protect the country’s large energy infrastructure of onshore and offshore oil and gas wells, liquefied natural gas terminals, refineries, pipeline grids and oil-exploration work within the vast Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).

» The establishment of interstate energy corridors (which also double up as strategic corridors) through the planned construction of pipelines to transport oil or gas sourced from third countries. China is busily fashioning two such corridors on either side of India through which it would transfer Gulf and African oil for its consumption, reducing its reliance on US-policed shipping lanes through the Malacca and Taiwan Straits and also cutting freight costs and supply time in the process.
One corridor extends northwards from the Chinese-built Pakistani port of Gwadar, which represents China’s first strategic foothold in the Arabian Sea. Located at the entrance to the Strait of Hormuz, Gwadar is to link up with the Trans-Karakoram Strategic Corridor to western China. The second is the Irrawaddy Corridor designed to connect Chinese-aided Burmese ports with China’s Yunnan, Sichuan and Chongqing provinces through road, river, rail and energy links.

» Strategic plans to assemble a “string of pearls” in the form of listening posts and special naval-access arrangements along the Indian Ocean sea-lanes. With its new blue-water navy and access arrangements around peninsular India, China is threatening to turn the Indian Ocean into the Chinese Ocean one day. As Navy chief Admiral Suresh Mehta said in a speech last January, “Each pearl in the string is a link in the chain of Chinese maritime presence”. That presence is now being extended all the way to Mauritius, where China is opening a trade development zone at a cost of some $730 million, making it the largest foreign direct investment in that island-nation.

Add to this picture another resource issue, the one with the greatest strategic bearing on the long-term interests of India and China — water. Although India’s usable arable land is larger than China’s — 160.5 million hectares compared to 137.1 million hectares — the source of all the major Indian rivers except the Ganges is the Chinese-held Tibetan plateau. But even the two main tributaries of the Ganges flow in from the Tibetan plateau — the source of the great river systems of China, South-East and South Asia, including the Brahmaputra, Indus, Mekong, Salween, Yangzi and Yellow. These rivers, fed by Himalayan snowmelt, are a lifeline to the 1.4 billion people living in their basins.

Given China’s ambitious inter-basin and inter-river water transfer projects in the Tibetan plateau and its upstream damming of the Brahmaputra, Sutlej and other rivers, water is likely to become a cause of Sino-Indian tensions. If President Hu Jintao — a hydrologist by training who has served as party secretary in Tibet — begins China’s long-pending project to divert the waters of the Brahmaputra northwards to the parched Yellow River, it would constitute the declaration of a water war on lower-riparian India and Bangladesh. Climate change, in any event, will have a significant impact on the availability and flow of river waters from the Himalayas and Tibetan highlands, making water a key element in the national-security calculus of China and India.

The centrality of the Tibet issue has been highlighted both by China’s Tibet-linked territorial claim to Arunachal Pradesh and by its hydro projects on the plateau. Through its water-transfer projects, Beijing is threatening to fashion water into a weapon against India. Also, given the clear link between Tibet’s fragile ecosystem and the climatic stability of the Indian subcontinent, China’s reckless exploitation of Tibet’s vast mineral resources and its large engineering works there are already playing havoc with the ecology.

India and China may be 5,000-year-old civilisations, but it is often forgotten that the two have been neighbours for only the past 58 years. After all, it wasn’t geography but guns — the sudden occupation of the traditional buffer, Tibet, soon after the Communists came to power in Beijing — that made China India’s neighbour. Nehru later admitted he had not anticipated the swiftness and callousness with which China forcibly absorbed Tibet because he had been “led to believe by the Chinese foreign office that the Chinese would settle the future of Tibet in a peaceful manner by direct negotiation with the representatives of Tibet”.

Latest developments are a reminder that the 1962 war did not fully slake China’s geopolitical or territorial ambitions. In fact, instead of building a win-win relationship with India based on a constructive, forward-looking approach, China still harks back to the past, to the unfinished business of 1962, by assertively laying claim to additional Indian territories while blocking progress on defining the long line of control separating the two countries. Such intransigence and expansionist intent come even as it continues to occupy one-fifth of the original state of Jammu and Kashmir and steps up its cross-border incursions into India.

It is against this background that a key question emerges: what if China sets out to “teach India a lesson” again? This is a question that can no longer be brushed aside, considering China’s growing proclivity to up the ante against India. Henry Kissinger once said China is a closed society with an open mind, while India is an open society with a closed mind and a know-all attitude. It was that attitude — and the refusal to heed the warning signs — that caught India by surprise when the Chinese army poured in through two separate fronts in 1962.

Today, two words define India’s China policy: confusion and forbearance. Caution with prudence is desirable. But can India afford to be overcautious, clueless and indulgent? In the celebrated words of Edmund Burke, those who fail to learn from history are sure to repeat history. Whatever India learned from 1962 seems to have been forgotten, with the country now torn by internal squabbling and policy disarray

Brahma Chellaney is Professor of Strategic Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi
Rahul M
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Rahul M »

zaxcollix, you have to choose a human sounding name as your handle.
plz post an username of your choice or I can change zaxcollix to some version of ramesh.
your call.
Philip
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Philip »

The red (China) light is flashing! Chellaney has put the pieces together of China's rapacious global ambitions into clear perspective.China is trying to grab as much of the world's resources for itself,in order to keep its billion+ population enslaved and docile.It cares a hoot for any other country,except a few lackeys whom it needs to keep potential rivals like India at bay.China will do everything possible to sabotage our strategic deterrence,like nodding in approval of the US-Indo N-deal,which directly impacts upon our future weapons programme and ICBM development,through imposed "self restraint".The dereliction of duty by the present regime,which has belatedly found that the dragon has been playing foul of late,is a sad commentary upon the importance given to national security by our current political leadership.Even the opposition could've warned and pressured the govt. into taking urgent action to protect ourselves from the Chinese threat a lot earlier.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Bina Bullworker »

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RayC
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by RayC »

Bina,

Nice to have a lady on this board.

Welcome!
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by Rishirishi »

I have been to China several times and regularly interacted with the Chinease. Here are some of the conclusions i have come to.

1
The Chinease people are very proud of the achievemints of China. They have been told by the state media that China has a great future (something they believe in). But it is unclear to me if that implies better life for each individual or to make China a mighty power, even at the cost of peoples expense.

2
So far the Chinease in general, are happy with their government. They do not expect much from the local government and accept that the power lies at the hands of some party officials.

3
Chinas main enemy is projected as US and their greatest aim is to end US influance in Taiwan. The Chinease government is in a "war mode" with the US ( they take a simmilar strategy the Deoband has taken in India; Keep silent and cooperate until you have the power to challenge the adversery).

4
About India:
The Chinease have started to project India as a underdeveloped country. They even have had reports about food poisining, toilet conditions in Mumbai etc. All this is done to project the Party as more sucessful, then the democratic India. It is here the greatest danger of conflict lies. In reality India is doing better at what matters, and may well be the country that becomes the greatest world power. Let me explain how I see things.

India is growing where it matters. Creating a professional class, better income growth and becomming a technology hub. The Indian financial system is sound, where banking works, the companies are able to raise finances via capital markets, etc. Indians are also better at creating wealth and making money on their activities. And above all, the Indian populations is young and growing. Indias main challenge is to do more of what it is doing, and get more people involved in the high growth areas. Something which is happeing naturally.

China:
Has grown larlgely on suppling cheap labour to forigin companies. The Chinese firms are notoriously poor in addding value to their services. A huge part of their national industry is government owned any jack up to sales, by selling at below cost. The cost is financed from banks, that have colossal bad debts. But their worst problem is the one child policy that is going to show its effect the next 15 years.

To be continued.
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Post by RayC »

Rishirishi,

Interesting and candid.

Do continue.

Do let us know if you have experienced the Han vs barbarians concept of China.

Also what they feel about the minorities of the South and the Tibetan and Uighurs.
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