Small Arms Thread

souravB
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 09 Apr 2019 07:22

ramana wrote:What's the barrel length if AK 203?
AK 204 carbine barrel length is noted as 314 mm.

Standard 16" barrel length.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 09 Apr 2019 10:07

That could explain. Standard barrel of 16" will give more range and accuracy.

Hope it works out.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Apr 2019 10:30

Indian armed forces have displayed extreme cluelessness in small arma procurement. In the last two years they have gone from 5.56 Nato to 7.62 Nato to 7.62x39 as mainstay ammunition. Wait for a few years till they realise 7.62x39 is good for COIN but not for engagement of enemy combatants at ranges > 200 meters wearing level III or higher body armour. The circus will repeat itself again. There is a reason WarPac countries too shifted from 7.62x39 to 5.45x39.

The Chinese on the other hand have shown a great foresight in ammunition standardisation with their 5.8 mm ammunition hitting a sweet spot.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 09 Apr 2019 11:44

Thales, Kalyani Group signs pact to manufacture next-generation weapons systems

Defence major Thales and the Kalyani Group have finalised a new collaboration to manufacture next-generation weapons systems for India.
The two companies have inked an agreement for the joint venture.

Kevin Wall, VP (vehicles and tactical systems), Thales, said his company was pleased to bring high-end technology from Australia and work in close collaboration with the Kalyani Group for the design and development of next-generation defence systems, including variants of the F90 assault rifle.


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 09 Apr 2019 16:15

Thakur_B wrote:Indian armed forces have displayed extreme cluelessness in small arma procurement. In the last two years they have gone from 5.56 Nato to 7.62 Nato to 7.62x39 as mainstay ammunition. Wait for a few years till they realise 7.62x39 is good for COIN but not for engagement of enemy combatants at ranges > 200 meters wearing level III or higher body armour. The circus will repeat itself again. There is a reason WarPac countries too shifted from 7.62x39 to 5.45x39.

The Chinese on the other hand have shown a great foresight in ammunition standardisation with their 5.8 mm ammunition hitting a sweet spot.


Most of these countries are no where involved in large scale COIN/Anti-Terror ops like IA is involved so their requirement will be different from IA.

These Warpac armies hardly do anything more than routine policing job and some war games they participate

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Apr 2019 16:55

Austin ji, both NATO and WarPac countries shifted to lighter high velocity ammunition. The reason for NATO were to lighten soldier load while maintaining armour penetrating capabilities. The purpose for WarPac was to have an ammunition that was more accurate and could penetrate standard NATO armour at greater distances.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Apr 2019 17:11

Austin wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Indian armed forces have displayed extreme cluelessness in small arma procurement. In the last two years they have gone from 5.56 Nato to 7.62 Nato to 7.62x39 as mainstay ammunition. Wait for a few years till they realise 7.62x39 is good for COIN but not for engagement of enemy combatants at ranges > 200 meters wearing level III or higher body armour. The circus will repeat itself again. There is a reason WarPac countries too shifted from 7.62x39 to 5.45x39.

The Chinese on the other hand have shown a great foresight in ammunition standardisation with their 5.8 mm ammunition hitting a sweet spot.


Most of these countries are no where involved in large scale COIN/Anti-Terror ops like IA is involved so their requirement will be different from IA.

These Warpac armies hardly do anything more than routine policing job and some war games they participate

But one thing they did was arrive at a decision scientifically!!!

The only science that I can see with the IA is that things change with which ever side on the bed the DG Infantry has woken up from!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jaysimha » 12 Apr 2019 15:17

Image
Kalyani Group and Thales to Develop the Next Generation of Defence Systems Capability in India
https://bharatshakti.in/kalyani-group-a ... -in-india/

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 14 Apr 2019 10:55


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Apr 2019 11:29

^^ Seems improbable at this point. The carbine project looks more promising.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby MeshaVishwas » 23 Apr 2019 21:02


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby srin » 08 May 2019 17:20

https://www.dailyo.in/politics/why-army-will-have-to-wait-more-for-new-carbines-elections-ministry-of-defence/story/1/30581.html
The Indian Army’s fast-track procurement process for new carbines is caught in a jam.

In September 2018, Caracal International LLC finished as ‘L-1’ or the lowest bidder in a contract estimated to cost over Rs 700 crore for 93,895 of the compact close-combat weapons.

The UAE government-owned firm beat out a competing weapon from Thales Australia in the contract.

Price negotiations between the MoD and Abu Dhabi-based Caracal were concluded soon after the price bids were opened in 2018.

But the contract is yet to be signed.

In contrast, the deal to buy assault rifles, bids for which were also opened last September, has galloped ahead.

In February this year, the ministry of defence (MoD) signed a Rs 700 crore contract with US-based rifle maker SiG Sauer to buy 72,400 assault rifles.

All the SiG 716 G2 rifles are to be delivered within a year of contract signing.

Caracal was one of five vendors on whom the MoD placed requests for proposals to supply modern carbines; part of the Army’s wishlist floated in 2017 for new weapons to replace its vintage small arms arsenal.

Carbines are useful to soldiers for fighting close-combat situations in urban counter-insurgency areas.

Another venture — to locally produce 7,50,000 AK-203 rifles — took off recently when Prime Minister Narendra Modi inaugurated an Indo-Russian joint venture at the Ordnance Factory, Korwa in Amethi on March 3.

There are believed to be several reasons behind the delay in the carbine deal.

The first is an MoD-appointed technical oversight committee which has questioned how the weapons chambered for the smaller 5.56x45 mm bullet calibre could be costlier than the SiG Sauer rifle which fires the larger 7.62x51 mm calibre round.

Each SiG rifle is believed to cost only $990 while the Caracal 816 costs $1150 a piece.
In 2018, rival firms, South Korea’s S&T Motiv and Thales Australia complained to the MoD that Caracal was not technically qualified for the deal.

These grievances are believed to have been settled before the MoD opened price bids.

The MoD has now put the deal on pause. The Army, happy to have at least two small arms deals going after a decade of procurement failures, is not exactly complaining.

For New Delhi, buying a weapon from Russia, the US and now, new best friend, the UAE, could close the loop on its diplomatic priorities.

How the MoD will respond to the Caracal jam is now perhaps a question that will be answered only after the elections.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 08 May 2019 19:31

Quite Frankly, Unless for special forces, there does not seem a need for the 5.56*45, unless we want commonality with LMG's belting out 5.56*45. In close quater combat areas 7.62*39 Kalashnikov's, in areas where engangement ranges are greater 7.62*51 fits the bill. Since our Army does not belive in spray and pray fights, the main advantage of 5.56*45 lightness of round is negated.

Wonder what is replacing the INSAS LMG, that should have commonality of round with the rest of the squad. I suppose some bolt action sniper rifles with 7.62*51 can accompany the squads with Sig 716 squads- Gas operated rifles tend to be inaccuarate over longer ranges.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 09 May 2019 05:42

>>The first is an MoD-appointed technical oversight committee which has questioned how the weapons chambered for the smaller 5.56x45 mm bullet calibre could be costlier than the SiG Sauer rifle which fires the larger 7.62x51 mm calibre round.

Fairly weird reason TBH. There could be multiple reasons a more compact weapon could be more expensive!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 09 May 2019 07:33

The AK deal for 7,50,000 rifles is just a way to stop piecemeal import of AKs and I believe it has been overhyped. CAPFs will most likely adopt AK203 and few lacs would come in for RR. There are murmurs that SiG 716 will get a repeat order soon followed by recommendation for license production. Carbine is still an open game, which I believe is far more critical for mechanised infantry. A big part of AK deal is that we can export them as well, so expect future orders for Afghans and other allies to be built here and given as aid. SF after setting of of SOD have made up their minds for TFTA 7.62 Nato rifles like SCAR and have already operated a small number for a while now. For anything that is not specifically COIN, Front line infantry, mechanised infantry, SF, any rifle / caliber shall do.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 09 May 2019 07:39

Why didnt we just go for 7.62x51?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 09 May 2019 09:08

Karan M wrote:Why didnt we just go for 7.62x51?

Sir the 93k + 350k 5.56NATO is probably for mechanized, airborne and officer use. Where a shorter and lighter rifle is needed.

Thakur_B sir, AFAIK there will be another 7.62x51 RFI in line with the 5.56 RFI as MII. What I think is IA didn't expected the SIGS deal to be this economical and waiting for the rifle to be fielded for a few months before placing the larger order.
I wonder what might be AK203 amethi price point?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 09 May 2019 09:16

^^ You mean AK308? Probably because it is barely out of development. It may still come at latter stage. Good 7.62NATO rifles aren't exactly cheap, which makes the SiG716 deal so lucrative considering the reasonable price. But it is still pricey on a massive scale.

This whole 5.56 isn't good was merely a justification for not continuing with INSAS. The disadvantages of 5.56 NATO in midranges against unarmoured combatants are far lower than that of 7.62x39 against armoured combatants in midranges.

From NATO COIN experience in Afghanistan, the complaints have rarely been against 5.56 round, but rather against rifles (not dust resistant, carbine lengths prevent long range engagement). Reason being NATO forces invested heavily in optics and accessories which improved critical shot (head / chest) probability manifold. Shoot from iron sights and a soldier might hit thigh or belly, which will kill the enemy combatant, but after a few minutes of agonising bleeding, during which the combatant may continue to fight. 7.62x39 is far more lethal in these scenarios.

The 5.56 bullet is too fast for its own good, making it go through the enemy only transferring a part of energy as hydrostatic shock. 7.62x39 on the other hand, being slower and fatter ends up expending a larger proportion of its kinetic energy as hydrostatic shock.

Against body armour, the effects are entirely different. 5.56 is vastly superior to 7.62x39, which expends majority of kinetic energy trying to get through body armour.

Why the AK deal then? Well it's a financial compromise. AKMs are good enough and cheap enough and sort of OFB proof.

Also , Eastern European companies like Arsenal have long had a free run in small arms market at the cost of Kalashnikov concern due to various sanctions and export restrictions. Export from India will help retake Indian and few other markets. At any given time India alone has about 5 million small arms with various government organisations. AKM are good enough for three quarters of them.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 20 May 2019 20:03

Pretty good recoil management despite it's light weight. Also lot of commonality between the 5.56 and 7.56 versions.

Compromise/disadvantage as not a full-on LMG for continuous sustained volume of fire..

Knights Light Assault Machine Gun - 'a successor to the Stoner LMG'


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby MeshaVishwas » 21 May 2019 09:51

Indian Army begins 3 nation hunt for new LMGs for infantry
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/indian-army-begins-3-nation-hunt-for-new-lmgs-for-infantry/amp_articleshow/69421569

The team, which left India a few days ago, is first visiting Bulgaria, where it will meet representatives from Arsenal, a gun and ammunition manufacturer. It will then go to Israel for the Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) and then to South Korea for S&T Motiv. It is visiting these manufacturers because they had responded with their bids to the army’s request for procuring 16,400 LMGs under the fast track procedure (FTP).


Officials explained that the army is looking at procuring an LMG with a calibre of 7.62x51mm, which will replace the in-service INSAS LMG that has a calibre of 5.56x45mm. The higher calibre means that the new LMG will be more lethal.
“It will also have belted ammunition, which means that it will have a sustained rate of fire, unlike LMGs wherein the magazine has to constantly be changed,” explained an official.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 21 May 2019 11:02

It is becoming increasingly clear IA has deceided.

1) Where engagements are going to be in close quarter enviorments - less than 150 meters - 7.62*39 AK series

2) In more conventional areas like Deserts, High mountain areas devoid of above the tree where engagement ranges are - 7.62*51 Rifles and automatic weapons.

This makes much more sense than multicaliber weapons etc, 5.45*45 will be relegated to special operations

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 21 May 2019 11:18

Have they figured out the training burden on the men who have to use the firearms.

I mean having different weapons form different sources and different operating systems will require different training regimen.

How would men move from one setup from another?

I guess a better way of doing things would have been to have a common family of weapons in different calibres. So that a person trained on 5. 56 can move to 7.62 NATO or Russian without any issues.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 21 May 2019 11:35

IA has always been using some 7.62*51 and 7.62*39 plus 7.62*54R, so I guess they are preety well trained on these calibers

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby MeshaVishwas » 21 May 2019 15:43

Indian Army in hunt for 12,000 telescopic sights for assault rifles
https://www.timesnownews.com/amp/india/article/indian-army-in-hunt-for-12000-telescopic-sights-for-assault-rifles/422566
A proposal for the purchase of nearly 12,000 telescopic sights for new assault rifles is likely to be cleared by a high-level committee very shortly.

These telescopic sights will be fitted onto the new generation Sig Sauer assault rifles that India wants. A contract for 72,000 rifles have already been signed and the delivery is likely within a year. These 7.62 x 51mm sights will cost about Rs 170 crore.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2019 15:46

YES! This is the only thing I really wanted in our small arms acquisition binge. Too many holo-reflex sights but literally no movement on magnification optical sights.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby MeshaVishwas » 21 May 2019 15:48

DMR duty also shouldered by the 716 G2 Patrol?
IIRC, Sena had issues with acquiring the *54R rounds for the old Dragunovs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 21 May 2019 23:41

So how will these 72000 SIG's be distributed among the troops, considering that the INSAS seems slated to be slowly replaced by the AK-203? Will some battalions be exclusively armed with SIG's and others with INSAS/AK? Or will each company in the battalion have a small inventory of SIG's and a larger one of INSAS/AK?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby MeshaVishwas » 12 Jun 2019 12:49

https://twitter.com/CISFHQrs/status/113 ... 16545?s=19
RFI 7.62mm NATO Sniper Rifle with CISF!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 17 Jun 2019 19:33

Sniper rifles for Indian Army delayed as 20 firms offer weapon, but none make ammunition

https://theprint.in/defence/sniper-rifl ... on/249981/

Err.. do they not have a RFI phase or at least market research (aka Google) phase before releasing RFP?

Also why not do this through strategic partnership?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sudeepj » 17 Jun 2019 22:53

abhik wrote:Sniper rifles for Indian Army delayed as 20 firms offer weapon, but none make ammunition

https://theprint.in/defence/sniper-rifl ... on/249981/

Err.. do they not have a RFI phase or at least market research (aka Google) phase before releasing RFP?

Also why not do this through strategic partnership?


Wasnt this tender driven by the IA itself in an 'emergency procurement'?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jun 2019 00:49

Something is odd. The requirements, procurement all were Army driven.
I believe Barett uses standard 0.50 caliber ammo.
Which sniper rifle maker makes ammo?
Are they looking for match ammo for target rifles?
Before RFP they did not send a questionairre on what the supplier makes?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jun 2019 00:55

"The RFI issued by the Army’s Infantry Directorate in 2018 took into account these factors, seeking 8.6X70 mm sniper rifles with a range of at least 1,200 metres, and 10.2 million rounds of ammunition..."

Who makes such rifle?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jun 2019 00:56

All 20 makers mfg this rifle?
If they want this caliber why ask others?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Lapua_Magnum

Basically a big game cartridge converted to sniper use.
SAKO makes the rifle among others. Even wiki shows cartridge is made by others.

To get cartridge made in India they need tech transfer from cartridge maker.
How will rifle maker give you cartridge tech transfer?
And 5700 rifles is too small to setup factory in India.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sum » 18 Jun 2019 05:04

abhik wrote:Sniper rifles for Indian Army delayed as 20 firms offer weapon, but none make ammunition

https://theprint.in/defence/sniper-rifl ... on/249981/

Err.. do they not have a RFI phase or at least market research (aka Google) phase before releasing RFP?

Also why not do this through strategic partnership?

Sometimes get confused if it is real news or some parody show

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 18 Jun 2019 09:02

And 5700 rifles is too small to setup factory in India.

I would disagree, each of these rifles probably cost $10k+, nobody else is buying these many rifles. Plus there is a huge internal security market here one this tender is fulfilled.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jun 2019 19:13

Do you know what the .338 Lapua cartridge is based on?
It's for hunting elephants etc.
Very difficult to say it will be used for Internal Security.
Army has a good use case across LOC against Pakis.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 24 Jun 2019 17:47

We already have .338 sniper rifles in service with one of the para mil forces (NSG or SSB - photos were posted in BRF some time ago). That round may have started like as a big game round but all those dozen and half manufacturers are targeting military and police market ( apart from may be the US civilian market). And India is one of the biggest mil/security markets. If Finland can sustain a manufacturer they why not India - not as though there are lot of elephants roaming around in Finland :D

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 30 Jun 2019 20:55

nachiket wrote:So how will these 72000 SIG's be distributed among the troops, considering that the INSAS seems slated to be slowly replaced by the AK-203? Will some battalions be exclusively armed with SIG's and others with INSAS/AK? Or will each company in the battalion have a small inventory of SIG's and a larger one of INSAS/AK?

The SIG's will be for conventional battle and stored in armories in bases across India. Any battalion in conventional role will be armed with this rifle. Any battalion going on COIN to J&K will be armed with AK-203 stored in armories there. INSAS will probably be phased out as AK-203 enters service and relegated to police forces that lacks suitable firearms.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby wig » 01 Jul 2019 12:08

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 95178.html

army to modify AK-47 to counter new terror tactic
excerpted from above
A process has been initiated for acquiring ‘weapon speciality kits’ that includes items like tactical flashlight, fiber reinforced pistol grip, swing swivel attachment, polymer rails, rubberised pistol fore front grip, cheek rest, pointing grip, extendable butt stock and side mount that can be attached to the rifle in the field as and when required

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Jul 2019 21:30

I don't understand above. They want a Volkswagen to become a Jaguar in the field.


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