Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

[Rye]

Narco Analysis can only help if the suspect is actually guilty, i.e., there is other evidence that points to the suspect lying. More specifically, the police can have a really good clue about when the suspect is lying by brain mapping (and suspects cannot control the physiology of the brain even if they can control their thoughts), and that is a great intimidation factor to get the suspect to spill the beans, because it will appear as if the police are reading the minds of the suspects (which they are). This reveals other evidence that will be admissible in court.

If the suspect is innocent, it will reveal no new information to confirm innocence because the suspect would not be lying about the crime (if we presume innocence). I would think people would/should be more worried about the short-term health effects on victims of terrorists/criminals rather than the long-term health of criminal suspects (who have other reasons to be suspected, such as the alleged SMS/texts and phone calls in this case). All this dumping on the IA here and all over the Indian press is a cruel joke, but the only thing one can do is stop paying attention.

all previous posts have been edited.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/petit ... se/383397/

Now Teesta Setalvad has joined the clusterfrock going on. What a great country.

[Avinash R]

Subjecting an accused to an narco analysis test or an brain mapping test after taking permission from the courts is not torture.

Thank you, that's my point, by the way - that Indians have become so inured to torture that they would say that.

Questioning of suspect is not torture. wanted to comment on your allegation of "indians having become inured to torture" but on second thoughts will not comment else it will lead to more off topic posts and rants.

So it is "permission from the courts" not "suspect asked for it to clear himself/herself"?

Doesn't make a difference until the person is not being forced to take the test.
At the end of the day if pragya is guilty no amount of trying to question the investigation procedure or trying to discredit the tests will save her.

[Muppalla]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/petit ... se/383397/

Now Teesta Setalvad has joined the clusterfrock going on. What a great country.

More dance.
Andhra police to question Malegaon suspects

For Mecca Masjid blast the AP police blamed HUJI and LeT etc. at that time and now they seems to be leaning towards Bajrang Dal. Now all the investigations where Muslims died may change the suspects.

It will be interesting to see the lap dancing of the law enforcement agencies irrespective of framing theory being right or wrong. The trend could be 2006 Malegaon, Hyd Mecca masjid blast, second blasts at Malegaon and Nanded will go to Bajrang Dal’s kitty while all the other blasts will go to SIMI+LeT+HUJI etc.

For these blasts (Malegaon, Hyd-Mecca, Malegaon-2, Nanded and possibly Ajmer) where Muslims died, the theory of the Law Enforcement agencies was that SIMI+HUJI did this to create Hindu Muslim rift.

Now from the political side, the chorus of ban SIMI only if you ban BD will be louder.

[sum]

For Mecca Masjid blast the AP police blamed HUJI and LeT etc. at that time and now they seems to be leaning towards Bajrang Dal. Now all the investigations where Muslims died may change the suspects.

So, from now we assume that every blasts in muslim majority place is due to evil hindu orgs like BD etc and every serail blast in normal kufr area is caused by islamists? What logic is this?

Anyways, regarding the Nanded blast, the CBI combed heaven and earth to find a hindu connection but couldnt and filed their charge sheet that there was no Hindu org found(despite all their efforts,of course)......Expect that conclusion to dramatically change in a few days.

[RamaY]

Shiv-ji,

I need to discuss and seek your guidance on some topic offline. Could you please ping me at RAMAYdotBRF at gmail???

thanks,

[enqyoob]

And you wonder why I say "Indians are inured to police torture"

narayanan wrote:
So it is "permission from the courts" not "suspect asked for it to clear himself/herself"?

Avinash responds:

Doesn't make a difference until the person is not being forced to take the test.

Ah! And what do u think happens when the "permission from the courts" is given? Can you not think that through without a color video, pls?

Using drugs on prisoners is banned by the Geneva Convention, unless I am seriously mistaken. But that would only apply to Pakis, hey, not Indian citizens supposedly with constitutional rights in the greatest free democracy in the Duniya?

And this gem from the scooted-but-returned-with-more-sense Rye:

I would think people would/should be more worried about the short-term health effects on victims of terrorists/criminals rather than the long-term health of criminal suspects (who have other reasons to be suspected, such as the alleged SMS/texts and phone calls in this case)

If there is enough evidence to get a conviction, then why use these?

Also, with that attitude about "rights of victims" being used as carte blanche to torture suspects, I can see the meaning of your "say hello to the US Govt" rant: you'd fit right in there with Attorney General Meese's and Gov. Sarah Palin's reasoning. Everything is rationalizable unless/until it is happening to yourself. Chalta Hai.

My issue is not with the wonderful "Indian inventions" (Rye term) being used on these particular suspects, who have exactly as much right to a presumption of innocence as any others, specifically including ISLAMIC "terror" suspects. My issue is with the casual references to methods of torture as being routine police investigative techniques.

Oh, sure, Indian police can just look on a blinking screen, and "read" what is inside people's minds by applying electric shocks to their heads. How could I have doubted that?

[enqyoob]

At the risk of cluttering this fine thread with facts:

Narco Analysis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Narco Analysis Test or Narco Test: This refers to the practice of administering barbiturates or certain other chemical substances, most often Pentothal Sodium (ah! again from Alistair McLean, WW2 techniques), to lower a subject's inhibitions, in the hope that the subject will more freely share information and feelings. The term Narco Analysis was coined by Horseley. Narco analysis first reached the mainstream in 1922, when Robert House, a Texas obstetrician used the drug scopolamine on two prisoners. Since then narco testing has become largely discredited in most democratic states, including the United States and Britain. There is a vast body of literature calling into question its ability to yield legal truth. Additionally, narcoanalysis has serious legal and ethical implications.

("INDIAN INVENTION!!!!!" - Rye)

A person is able to lie by using his imagination. In the Narco Analysis Test, the subject's inhibitions are lowered by interfering with his nervous system at the molecular level. In this state, it becomes difficult though not impossible for him to lie. In such sleep-like state efforts are made to obtain "probative truth" about the crime. Experts inject a subject with hypnotics like Sodium Pentothal or Sodium Amytal under the controlled circumstances of the laboratory. The dose is dependent on the person's sex, age, health and physical condition. The subject which is put in a state of hypnotism is not in a position to speak up on his own but can answer specific but simple questions after giving some suggestions. This type of test is not always admissible in the law courts. It states that subjects under a semi-conscious state do not have the mind set to properly answer any questions, while some other courts openly accept them as evidence. Studies have shown that it is possible to lie under narcoanalysis and its reliability as an investigative tool is questioned in most countries. A few democratic countries, India most notably, still continue to use narcoanalysis, but the result of such test can not be used as evidence in the court of law since it violates fundamental right against self-incrimination (Article 20(3) of the constitution of India). This has come under increasing criticism from the public and the media in that country. In India, the Narco Analysis test is done by a team comprising of an anesthesiologist, a psychiatrist, a clinical/forensic psychologist, an audio-videographer, and supporting nursing staff. The forensic psychologist will prepare the report about the revelations, which will be accompanied by a compact disc of audio-video recordings. The strength of the revelations, if necessary, is further verified by subjecting the person to polygraph and brain mapping tests.

The test

Truth serum are drugs used in narco-analysis that cause a person to become uninhibited, but they do not guarantee the veracity of the subject’s statement. People who are under the influence of truth serums enter a hypnotic state and speak freely about anxieties or painful memories. The subject’s imagination is neutralised when semi-conscious, making it difficult for him/her to lie and his/her answers would be restricted to facts of which he/she is aware.

[edit] Reliability

Although inhibitions are generally reduced, people under the influence of truth serums are still able to lie and even tend to fantasize because of his semiconscious state. It can be used for discovery, and to corroborate information with other facts.

[edit] Drugs administered

Sodium pentothal is an ultrashort-acting barbiturate, which sedates only for a few minutes. It slows down the heart rate, lowers blood pressure, and inhibits brain and spinal cord activity. Sodium amytal and Scopolamine are other drugs used. Some benzodiazepines have been used as truth agents; most notably, the Soviet Union used temazepam for this purpose.

Legal position

Such tests generally don’t have legal validity as confessions made by a semi-conscious person are not admissible in court. The court may, however, grant limited admissibility after considering the circumstances under which the test was obtained. In the main, these tests can only assist police investigations.

External links

* http://www.globetrotters.co.uk/bites/bite_485.html
* http://www.biopsychiatry.com/amobarbital.htm
* http://www.tehelka.com/story_main24.asp ... est_CS.asp
* http://in.rediff.com/news/2007/jan/09spec.htm

[Avinash R]

Ah! And what do u think happens when the "permission from the courts" is given?

The videos of nacro analysis on terror suscepts like the one involved in iisc bangalore have been telecast and if you have seen those you would know.
No torture is used just the suspect is asked questions and he answers whatever he knows. even nacro analysis was applied on telgi in the fake stamp paper scam and most of the names were revealed during the test and consequently more arrests were made.

Using drugs on prisoners is banned by the Geneva Convention

You mean that Indian courts by giving permission to conduct narco analysis test are violating the geneva convention. I think the judges know the law better than you.

[Muppalla]

I am lost regarding discussing the investigative techniques in a thread titled "Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism". These techniques are the same that are in use for a while and they are using the same in this case as well.

[enqyoob]

Muppalla, I see your point, but this thread also has discussions of car accidents, cricket betting, harassment of joggers, incompetence of bureaucrats, and anything else. I would think "investigative techniques" definitely have a bearing on the Malegaon case, if "wild declaration techniques" are relevant, since those seem to be the preferred way of deciding guilt in India. See above re declarations of police.

Avinash, so you are saying that these involuntary "confessions" of Indian citizens who have not been tried and proven guilty in any court of law, are also BROADCAST on Indian TV? And you don't see anything wrong with that either?

Now I am going to give you a bit of advice, since you are definitely not going to learn that from watching TV or reading Indian newspapers:

Avinash ***ted:

I think the judges know the law better than you.

This does not constitute an intelligent argument, Avinash. It conveys an impression that you are, shall we say, less than of average intelligence, and WAY less than expected maturity for your age, no undue disrespect intended. If you have factual arguments, please take the trouble to find them and post them - otherwise ppl like me will stay here and have a lot of fun at your expense.

If you had bothered to get someone to read out to you the post above from Wikipedia that says these sorts of tactics violate the right against self-incrimination in the Indian Constitution, that SHOULD have triggered some responses in your "brain-mapping", assuming, of course, that some signs of intelligence could be detected.

This thing called the "CONSTITUTION" of course is irrelevant, it won't be broadcast on TV...

[Muppalla]

Muppalla, I see your point, but this thread also has discussions of car accidents, cricket betting, harassment of joggers, incompetence of bureaucrats, and anything else. I would think "investigative techniques" definitely have a bearing on the Malegaon case, if "wild declaration techniques" are relevant, since those seem to be the preferred way of deciding guilt in India. See above re declarations of police.

Are these not the same techniques that they are using in cases of any criminal investigation? How these thing will have a different bearing on Malegaon when compared to that of other investigations?

[Tilak]

BJP behind temple desecrations in Goa, alleges Congress
November 9th, 2008 - 8:56 pm ICT by IANS -

Panaji, Nov 9 (IANS) The Congress Sunday claimed that the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) was behind the desecration of temples and shrines in rural Goa and demanded that the state government constitute an Anti Terrorist Squad (ATS) on the lines of Maharashtra to probe the matter.Speaking to reporters Saturday evening, Goa Pradesh Congress Committee spokesperson Jeetendra Deshprabhu claimed that the desecrations were being carried out by “satellites” of the BJP and a thorough impartial investigation was required to get to the bottom of the matter.

The Goa police have already constituted a special investigation team made up of Crime Branch officials to nab the culprits. “This is not enough, the Congress party has asked the government to form a team on the lines of the Maharashtra ATS and fully empower them,” Deshprabhu said.

“One must not forget what is happening in Malegaon. This is a pattern the BJP and its satellites follow before any elections in order to encourage polarization. These are not stray incidents, but a well planned exercise to divide the Goan community,” Deshprabhu alleged. The desecration spree coincided with the run-up to the Pale assembly by-election in Goa, he noted.

Deshprabhu announced that the Congress-led coalition Goa government had promised police protection to the hundreds of small temples in remote regions where the desecration attempts have been made.

Both the Congress and BJP have termed the attacks on temples as acts of terrorism.

However, while the Congress has maintained that the BJP was engineering these incidents, the latter has blamed the Indian Mujahideen for the attacks. “It’s the handiwork of the Indian Mujahideen (IM). They are vitiating the atmosphere in Goa for their own benefit,” Leader of Opposition Manohar Parrikar told IANS. “The police should be given a free hand to tackle such cases,” he added.

Meanwhile, Razak Sheikh, 25, who was arrested by the Special Investigation Team of the Crime Branch for vandalising an idol of a Hindu deity at Paroda last month, was released on bail by a local court.

[enqyoob]

Are these not the same techniques that they are using in cases of any criminal investigation? How these thing will have a different bearing on Malegaon when compared to that of other investigations?

Oh, they are exactly the same, Muppalla, as is the wild ascribing of blame to this or that organization, on which basis any number of people are arrested and tortured and their lives destroyed.

My point again, is that Indians have become inured to this sort of atrocities in lieu of careful, objective investigation and crime-solving with respect for the law and the Constitution, without political/religious pressure, and out of the TV and newspapers. Where is the outrage?

Now this is directly linked to the blasts and all other crimes, whether in Malegaon or Ahmedabad or Coimbatore. Look at the record: how many successful convictions, after how many years, and how many of those stood up on appeal? How many got kicked out by the Supreme Court?

So the proper outlet for outrage is at the process, to demand that the Constitution be respected. If you don't do that, you lose all credibility in arguing that this or that sub-sub-outrage is an outrage. The counter-argument is always:

Are these not the same techniques that they are using in cases of any other incompetence/atrocity? How these thing will have a different bearing on XXXX when compared to that of other atrocities?

[enqyoob]

More on Malegaon:

Malegaon probe: ATS raids ashram of prominent Swami

New Delhi: The Maharashtra anti-terror squad (ATS) has raided the ashram of prominent Swami Asimananda in the Dangs district of Gujarat. ATS sources say Swami Asimananda was using his driver Sunil Dahwad's sim card and was in constant touch with prime suspect sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur.

ATS is trying to ascertain if the ashram or the swami had any connection with the blasts. The swami's ashram is near Subir village in the Dangs district, about 34 km from the district headquarters. Asimananda has been very active in the Sangh Parivaar's re-conversion drives in the tribal-dominated belt. Investigations by the ATS has also put more army officers in the probe radar.

After the arrest of the Lt Col Purohit, two more serving Colonels and a retired Lieutenant General are on the Maharashtra ATS' radar.(For those who don't know proper and USUAL investigative technique in India, this is how it's done: you tell the media that so-and-so is "on our radar" because you have absolutely no evidence, but are politically motivated.. This is of course American practice too - demonstrated by the FBI in the cases of Atlanta security guard Richard Jewell, the Chinese-American scientist at Los Alamos, and recently in the case of the US Army labs scientist in Maryland on the anthrax case).

The blast in Nanded had taken place on April 6, 2006 at the residence of a retired irrigation department engineer and Rashtriya Swamsewak Sangh activist Lakshman Rajkondawar.

Rajkondawar's son Naresh Lakshman Rajkondwar and Himanshu Venkatesh Panse were killed in the blast while four others - Yogesh Ravindra Deshpande Vidholkar, Maroti Kishore Wagh, Gururaj Jayaram Tuptewar and Rahul Manoharao Pande - were seriously injured.

Pande managed to flee from the scene of the explosion, but was arrested later.

Remember who Swami Asimananda is, Muppalla? Where we read his name before? (Don't say where, pls, just asking whether you remember...)

This whole thing stinks of a Teesta Setalwad setup. Does she own most of Maharashtra or what? I bet ATS hasn't looked into her "Ama" website and her funding sources? The Pink Panther Inspecteurs come to mind..

[Avinash R]

Avinash, so you are saying that these involuntary "confessions" of Indian citizens who have not been tried and proven guilty in any court of law, are also BROADCAST on Indian TV?

Those are voluntary confessions. no one is forcing them to make those statements. Even when the application is moved by the police to request narco analysis test the suscept can file his/her objections. It's not like that the person is forced to take the tests.

This does not constitute an intelligent argument, Avinash. It conveys an impression that you are, shall we say, less than of average intelligence, and WAY less than expected maturity for your age, no undue disrespect intended. If you have factual arguments, please take the trouble to find them and post them - otherwise ppl like me will stay here and have a lot of fun at your expense.

Mind language dude, just because you have been made the moderator does not give you the right to make such comment. More of such posts which attack other members rather than counter their arguments and you will soon find yourself out that moderator post and even the forum.

This thing called the "CONSTITUTION" of course is irrelevant, it won't be broadcast on TV...

Yes not on american channels were people like you live.

[enqyoob]

Those are voluntary confessions. no one is forcing them to make those statements.

INJECTING DRUGS into them on court order is VOLUNTARY? WOW!

Oh, Avinash, I apologize deeply for offending you by implying that you may be conveying the impression that you are of BELOW AVERAGE intelligence. That is surely an attack on the other postors here, and I am deeply sorry to have insulted them. PLEEEEEEASE, don't get my IP banned, I MUST be able to read this forum, if not post here, to read such jewels, since American TV has nothing to compare, now that the Presidential Debates are over .

Asking people to post facts and logic is SURELY a personal attack on them, by the rules conveyed to us admin-panndoos by the Guvrmand. Posting gems like

judges know the law better than you do

OTOH, is the way it is done now - JUST like it's done in the Bollywood movies, na? Becoming an admin, of course, I got a (totally voluntary court-ordered, strapped-down) lobotomy, and I promised to serve and obey such postors at all times, and I am sooo mortified that I was momentarily so disrespectful.

Yes, and this is a stellar example of modern BRF Logical Argument that I will miss sorely when you get my IP banned by whining to the admins that I am being cruel to you:

Yes not on american channels were people like you live

So admirable! So INTELLIGENT! How do you DO this, time and again? Awesome!

[SRoy]

Now a Naval Officer is said to be on the "radar" as per Indian Express.

It is the same paper that carried the commie garbage pretending discomfiture over "Saffronization" of the Army.

It might not be merely a Seetlvad op. (seeking equal equal) but something more sinister.

We should thank the Gods if the Services manages to stay afloat until demise of the UPA, resisting appointment of political officers for every unit...Red Army style.

OR

Is it arm twisting by the IPS/IAS lobby after the Chiefs pissed off the babus over the pay commission ruckus?

[enqyoob]

SRoy:

It's the other option. Setalwad is not "equal-equal". Not by a looooooong way. Long history there, but I no longer think it is safe, and definitely not useful, to post anything that involves nuance and intelligence on BRF with the brilliance of the postors that we have. Would probably get banned, and even more likely, reported to the "ATS" or other goon squads.

What I DO wish, though is that Army Intelligence (if such a thing exists) contact some people who are familiar with past antics of this crowd, and figure out what exactly is happening.

The target here is much broader and deeper than this Swami or that LtCol or some other Saadhvi.

[enqyoob]

From the Times of Islamabad

Five Malegaon blast accused to appear in Nashik court tomorrow
9 Nov 2008, 1953 hrs IST, PTI
NASHIK: Five out of nine accused, arrested so far by Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) in connection with Malegaon blasts case, will be produced again in a local court on Monday.

Maj (Retd) Ramesh Shivji Upadhyay, Sameer Kulkarni, a member of Abhinav Bharat, Ajay Eknath Rahirkar, Treasurer of Abhinav Bharat, Rakesh Dattatreya Dhawde and Jagdish Chintaman Mhatre will be produced in a Nashik court tomorrow, sources said today. The police remand of the five accused ends on November 10. According to public prosecutor Ajay Misar, Upadhyay is settled in Pune and allegedly helped in transporting explosives in Malegaon.

Upadhyay also had been in contact with Lt Col P S Purohit, who is now in ATS custody. Upadhyay allegedly attended Abhinav Bharat organisation meeting held at city's Bhonsala Military school, where conspiracy of Malegaon blast was allegedly hatched. Sameer Kulkarni was also present at September 16 meeting held at Nashik. Police recovered arms from Ajay Rahirkar, allegedly provided by in service Lt Col P S Purohit, Misar said.

[Muppalla]

SRoy:

It's the other option. Setalwad is not "equal-equal". Not by a looooooong way. Long history there, but I no longer think it is safe, and definitely not useful, to post anything that involves nuance and intelligence on BRF with the brilliance of the postors that we have. Would probably get banned, and even more likely, reported to the "ATS" or other goon squads.

What I DO wish, though is that Army Intelligence (if such a thing exists) contact some people who are familiar with past antics of this crowd, and figure out what exactly is happening.

The target here is much broader and deeper than this Swami or that LtCol or some other Saadhvi.

If I understand correctly what you are saying is that someone powerful is misusing the Narco analysis and brain mapping tests with sinster designs. However, these investigative techniques are used to solve many cases such as parliament attack etc. My point is one can protest the misuse of these techniques as opposed to questioning the techniques themselves. Advanced techniques will come some day as India progresses. In this case they went to an extreme by conducting narco analysis multiple times on Saadvi.

[Muppalla]

Regarding Swami Asimananda, he is doing some work like Ekal with in the Dang district of Gujarat.

http://www.hvk.org/articles/1105/173.html

This is where Seetalvaad and Sabrangs coming into picture.

[amolvp]

After reading through the various posts above , i remembered an article i had read in NYTimes about use of brain mapping in India.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/15/world ... wanted=all

India’s Novel Use of Brain Scans in Courts Is Debated
By ANAND GIRIDHARADAS
Published: September 14, 2008
MUMBAI, India — The new technology is, to its critics, Orwellian. Others view it as a silver bullet against terrorism that could render waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods obsolete. Some scientists predict the end of lying as we know it. Now, well before any consensus on the technology’s readiness, India has become the first country to convict someone of a crime relying on evidence from this controversial machine: a brain scanner that produces images of the human mind in action and is said to reveal signs that a suspect remembers details of the crime in question.

For years, scientists have peered into the brain and sought to identify deception. They have shot infrared beams through liars’ heads, placed them in giant magnetic resonance imaging machines and used scanners to track their eyeballs. Since the Sept. 11 attacks, the United States has plowed money into brain-based lie detection in the hope of producing more fruitful counterterrorism investigations. The technologies, generally regarded as promising but unproved, have yet to be widely accepted as evidence — except in India, where in recent years judges have begun to admit brain scans. But it was only in June, in a murder case in Pune, in Maharashtra State, that a judge explicitly cited a scan as proof that the suspect’s brain held “experiential knowledge” about the crime that only the killer could possess, sentencing her to life in prison.

Psychologists and neuroscientists in the United States, which has been at the forefront of brain-based lie detection, variously called India’s application of the technology to legal cases “fascinating,” “ridiculous,” “chilling” and “unconscionable.” (While attempts have been made in the United States to introduce findings of similar tests into court cases, these generally have been by defense lawyers trying to show the mental impairment of the accused, not by prosecutors trying to convict.)

“I find this both interesting and disturbing,” Henry T. Greely, a bioethicist at Stanford Law School, said of the Indian verdict. “We keep looking for a magic, technological solution to lie detection. Maybe we’ll have it someday, but we need to demand the highest standards of proof before we ruin people’s lives based on its application.”

Law enforcement officials from several countries, including Israel and Singapore, have shown interest in the brain-scanning technology and have visited government labs that use it in interrogations, Indian officials said.Methods of eliciting truth have long proved problematic. Truth drugs tend to make suspects babble as much falsehood as truth. Polygraph tests measure anxiety more than deception, and good liars may not feel anxious. In 1998, the United States Supreme Court said there was “simply no consensus that polygraph evidence is reliable.”

This latest Indian attempt at getting past criminals’ defenses begins with an electroencephalogram, or EEG, in which electrodes are placed on the head to measure electrical waves. The suspect sits in silence, eyes shut. An investigator reads aloud details of the crime — as prosecutors see it — and the resulting brain images are processed using software built in Bangalore.

The software tries to detect whether, when the crime’s details are recited, the brain lights up in specific regions — the areas that, according to the technology’s inventors, show measurable changes when experiences are relived, their smells and sounds summoned back to consciousness. The inventors of the technology claim the system can distinguish between people’s memories of events they witnessed and between deeds they committed.

The Brain Electrical Oscillations Signature test, or BEOS, was developed by Champadi Raman Mukundan, a neuroscientist who formerly ran the clinical psychology department of the National Institute of Mental Health and Neuro Sciences in Bangalore. His system builds on methods developed at American universities by other scientists, including Emanuel Donchin, Lawrence A. Farwell and J. Peter Rosenfeld. Despite the technology’s promise — some believe it could transform investigations as much as DNA evidence has — many experts in psychology and neuroscience were troubled that it was used to win a criminal conviction before being validated by any independent study and reported in a respected scientific journal. Publication of data from testing of the scans would allow other scientists to judge its merits — and the validity of the studies — during peer reviews.

“Technologies which are neither seriously peer-reviewed nor independently replicated are not, in my opinion, credible,” said Dr. Rosenfeld, a psychologist and neuroscientist at Northwestern University and one of the early developers of electroencephalogram-based lie detection. “The fact that an advanced and sophisticated democratic society such as India would actually convict persons based on an unproven technology is even more incredible.”

After passing an 18-page promotional dossier about the BEOS test to a few of his colleagues, Michael S. Gazzaniga, a neuroscientist and director of the SAGE Center for the Study of the Mind at the University of California, Santa Barbara, said: “Well, the experts all agree. This work is shaky at best.”

None of these experts have met the Indian inventors and the investigators using the test. One British forensic psychologist who has met them said he found the presentation highly convincing. “According to the cases that have been presented to me, BEOS has clearly demonstrated its utility in providing admissible evidence that has been used to assist in the conviction of defendants in court,” Keith Ashcroft, a frequent expert witness in the British courts, said in an e-mail message.

Two states in India, Maharashtra and Gujarat, have been impressed enough to set up labs using BEOS for their prosecutors.

Sunny Joseph, a state forensic investigator in Maharashtra who used to work with Dr. Mukundan as a researcher on BEOS in Bangalore, said the test’s results were highly reliable. He said Dr. Mukundan had done extensive testing, as had the state.

Here in Maharashtra, about 75 crime suspects and witnesses have undergone the test since late 2006. But the technique received its strongest official endorsement, forensic investigators here say, on June 12, when a judge convicted a woman of murder based on evidence that included polygraph and BEOS tests. The woman, Aditi Sharma, was accused of killing her former fiancé, Udit Bharati. They were living in Pune when Ms. Sharma met another man and eloped with him to Delhi. Later Ms. Sharma returned to Pune and, according to prosecutors, asked Mr. Bharati to meet her at a McDonald’s. She was accused of poisoning him with arsenic-laced food.

Ms. Sharma, 24, agreed to take a BEOS test in Mumbai, the capital of Maharashtra. (Suspects may be tested only with their consent, but forensic investigators say many agree because they assume it will spare them an aggressive police interrogation.)

After placing 32 electrodes on Ms. Sharma’s head, investigators said, they read aloud their version of events, speaking in the first person (“I bought arsenic”; “I met Udit at McDonald’s”), along with neutral statements like “The sky is blue,” which help the software distinguish memories from normal cognition.

For an hour, Ms. Sharma said nothing. But the relevant nooks of her brain where memories are thought to be stored buzzed when the crime was recounted, according to Mr. Joseph, the state investigator. The judge endorsed Mr. Joseph’s assertion that the scans were proof of “experiential knowledge” of having committed the murder, rather than just having heard about it.

In the only other significant judicial statement on BEOS, a judge in 2006 in Gujarat denied the test the status of “concluded proof” but wrote that it corroborated already solid evidence from other sources.

In writing his opinion on the Pune murder case, Judge S. S. Phansalkar-Joshi included a nine-page defense of BEOS.

Ms. Sharma insists that she is innocent.

Even as the debate continues over using scans to trip up obfuscators, researchers are developing new uses for the technology. No Lie MRI, a company in California, promises on its Web site to use the scans to help with developing interpersonal trust and military intelligence, among other tasks. In August, a committee of the National Research Council in Washington predicted that, with greater research, brain scans could eventually aid “the acquisition of intelligence from captured unlawful combatants” and “the screening of terrorism suspects at checkpoints.”

“As we enter more fully into the era of mapping and understanding the brain, society will face an increasing number of important ethical, legal and social issues raised by these new technologies,” Mr. Greely, the Stanford bioethicist, and his colleague Judy Illes wrote last year in the American Journal of Law & Medicine.

If brain scans are widely adopted, they said, “the legal issues alone are enormous, implicating at least the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution.”

“At the same time,” they continued, “the potential benefits to society of such a technology, if used well, could be at least equally large

[enqyoob]

Thanks very much amolvp! Muppalla, pls read that and see if you aren't scared by it. YES, we MUST question the "technique" if u can call it that. "Scam" would be a better word...

With all due respect to their Honners the Judges, they are not THAT much smarter than the rest of the aam janata, and they are also susceptible to being bombarded with Type A personalities such as Public Prosecutors and Police IGs declaring with 500% certainty that these techniques are valid.

Bottom line: judges are not scientists, and Praise Allah! scientists are more fallible than most other people in their conclusions.

These things interpret some vague "responses in the right parts of the brain" to be indicators of guit!!! This is utterly shocking.

Now, now, you say, why would the Police want to cook up cases? Aren't they fair?
Well.... the Police in India are under the control of the STATE GOVERNMENT, meaning the Chief Minister and Home Minister. They are hardly independent.

Now combine the conspiracy-hatching prowess of Teesta Setalwad and her coterie which has a very wide international network of commie-Pakis, and the Congress Party's resources including all those Tehelka types, and consider what can be done through powers of suggestion to establish "brain responses" that can "prove" pretty much anything.

And they used these THREE TIMES on the saadhvi?

One question: If ppl here claim that these techniques are used ONLY WITH THE CONSENT of the suspect, why would anyone consent to these techniques unless they KNOW they are innocent?

In the Saddhvi's case, the ddm speculated, probably with input from setalwad's gang, that the Saddhi was "trained to control her mind" so she may have managed to fake responses.

This is utterly, utterly wrong, and what is happening is that the Indian people have become (u heard it here first) so inured to these atrocities that not a second thought is given to the notion of whether these are any better than witchcraft and mumbo-jumbo.

Also, Muppalla, think harder, and if necessary, did back in time.... you'll see why Setalwad and gang are involved, and it will make u very very scared at what is going on in the name of "law enforcement" in India.

This whole thing is a conspiracy and I don't mean the one by the Yindoo Terrorists.

[R_Kumar]

You guys can talk about all the options to save Hindu in India. But at this time there is only one solution.
Defeat congress and bring back BJP. There is no other option. If Congrees somehow hang on to power after coming general election Hindus are doomed.

[shiv]

Could you please ping me at RAMAYdotBRF at gmail???

,

Mail sent.

On the subject of narco analysis - I suspect that the test will either not be conducted or the results will never become public.

The reason is simple - if this man's brain is tapped for info he will spill the beans on every single secular politician involved in supporting and sheltering Islamic terrorists - apart from sundry financial scams used for funding terror.

In fact given that this may happen - it may be worth going through with this. But that is precisely why nothing will happen.

There are politicians in India, certainly from the ruling party, and probably from all parties who have the support of people who have supported terror in one way or another. And they are being sheltered. Our polity may need to be rebooted and I sometimes wonder if MooMoo was not right after all.

[Keshav]

Sages and priests need to become active in the community

Instead of simply performing poojas, tell people what they are doing, why, and the significance for the greater part of society.

Give speeches weekly. Sermons are immensely important to having ones beliefs reinforced periodically. This is important.

---

One way to go about this is create Hindu schools similar to Catholic set ups. Take the priests away from the temples and put them into schools.

The school will provide the basis for ritual and philosophical knowledge on Hinduism as well as provide them a solid secular foundation for higher education (Engineering, Medicine, etc.). But this has to be extended further. In India, religion is culture - everything ties back in.

Teach music, poetry, Sanskrit, physical activities, and provide other electives for kids other interests. Although you may not agree with some of the graduates, Amartya Sen and Satyajit Ray were both products of Tagore's Santiniketan schooling system that focused on all aspects of learning. He wrongly created an international curriculum, by incorporating miscellaneous learning from Japan, China, Europe, etc. instead of an all Indian one.

European studies can be an elective, but the History of Democracy, starting with the Enlightenment and French Revolution should be made mandatory, where differences between the Indian and European settings are highlighted.

We should remember this:
Anyone can create a school in a village. But even if you have a teacher, the curriculum is what creates the children, not just schooling. Perhaps we should attempt to create a curriculum and offer it to RSS and VHP schools.

Freedom of temples:
All of us can agree that temples in India rake in millions of rupees every year, which I imagine a certain percentage is pocketed.

Just imagine what one might do with a systemic usage of that money.

Where does the rest of the money go? In Communist places, I imagine it might "redistibuted". This is key to Hindu freedom.

Organizing:
Organize "community events" like sporting activities, zoo trips, and advocate for the middle class, not just the poor.

[vsudhir]

Yes, the narco-analysis method is scary indeed. And beating confessions out of random suspects has its roots in the Brit era and beyond, into the mughal one.

Desi law-enforcement ought to do careful, real police work to prosecute suspects of any crime. Sure, thats a 'Duh' - something on which everyone but everyone will agree upon. And premediated, organized crimes like terrorism are especially hard to find concrete evidence for. Particularly when circumstantial evidence can be doubted, sullied and discredited by the suspect's family, neighborhood, community and opportunistic netas.

So why doesn't yindia commit more fully to improving its police work? At least partly because police forces are in states' control and their effectiveness is affected depending on the political temperature of various cases.

Seems like a hard to dig out of hole. meanwhile, thanks to this gaping hole in legal, legitimate and convincingly acceptable ways of proving guilt in yindia, the terrorists and their overground supporters/apologists can get assuredly bolder. So what if innocents perish in bum blasts. We've gotten inured to that too now, IMVVHO.

The cycle is ill-fated to continue until at some point, things snap and a public outcry for a saviour neta on a horse din out everything else. Has happened before in history elsewhere, will happen again this time in yindia perhaps.

Yindia and we yindians brought it upon ourselves. Nobody really denies it anymore perhaps. Why wail when our bad karma revisits us? We will take this into our stride and invite some more until we end up like Bakistan (that may yet take a while but it may well get there within our lifetimes). Now, howz that for a scary thought.

[Abhi_G]

Keshav, I do not know from where you inferred that Tagore's curriculum created fake liberals. Tagore never said that he was not a HINDU even though some of his writings have been hugely pumped up by leftist circles to show his 'universalism' and discredit the concept of 'nationalism'. For leftists nationalism is anathema unless it is of the Soviet/Chinese kind. His ideals are nowhere similar to today's liberals. The change started when Tagore was no more. Actually, Tagore was one of the fierce supporters of the Maratha, Sikh and Rajput resistances against Islamic invasion, as evident in his writings. But he died around 1942 AFAIK. The post independence era heralds Nehruvian secularism which has become virulently anti national today. Amartya was barely 9 when Tagore died. He was moulded in the post 1947 era and continues to contribute to the leftist islamist hijacked education system.

When K. R. Malkani wrote about the poem 'Shivaji Utsav' to show Tagore's nationalism, the leftists dismissed him by saying that the poem was substandard.

[shiv]

We should remember this:
Anyone can create a school in a village. But even if you have a teacher, the curriculum is what creates the children, not just schooling. Perhaps we should attempt to create a curriculum and offer it to RSS and VHP schools.

Freedom of temples:
All of us can agree that temples in India rake in millions of rupees every year, which I imagine a certain percentage is pocketed.

India has set up "secular schools" in which everything is done to avoid hurting the feelings of any community which means that you have to tell lies about India's history. At the same time it has allowed the setting of schools by Christians and Muslims in which there can be a bias in the way religions are presented. This is the failure of successive Indian governments.

About temple funds - I was at a meeting yesterday (I have written about it in the fake liberal thread) in which a man quoted some figures. I was unable to say where exactly those figures were taken from and would lie more information.. But he did make his point clear to the Hindus present.

He said - the money which you Hindus, as pilgrims, donate to temples is taken by the government. Last year the government got Rs 300+ crores from temples. 186 crores were used for the Madrassa board and 80 odd crores for temples.

[Avinash R]

Those are voluntary confessions. no one is forcing them to make those statements.

INJECTING DRUGS into them on court order is VOLUNTARY? WOW!

With the person's permission.They are not being forced to take them.


Repeatedly attacking other posters by calling them of below average intelligence when you are an fine example of mental retardation and who also happens to suffers from a severe case of verbal diarrhoea and then you talk about facts. LOL you surely are fine example of "i live in america and will preach you injuns" type of character. These sermons about what constitutes torture is coming from a person who lives in america were terror suscepts are held in gitmo like prisons and military courts rule over civilian terror suscepts and not to forget the american lady/girl holding an iraqi suscept with a dog leash on his neck in abu ghraib. Such a person is teaching indians to fight torture. LOL If your so worried about indians come here and fight to correct the wrongs that you are alleging are present in indian judicial system, dont try to preach us sitting there.

[Avinash R]

Police looking for 54 people “who got arms training”
http://www.thehindu.com/2008/11/10/stor ... 711200.htm

Mumbai/New Delhi: As they uncover a wide network of those involved in the Malegaon blast with linkages to an earlier explosion at Nanded too, investigators were on Sunday looking for 54 people suspected to have been given arms training at a military school in Nagpur.

Highly-placed sources involved in the investigation into the blast at Malegaon on September 29 that killed six persons, said that interrogation of suspects indicated that 54 people had been given training in handling of arms and explosives at Bhonsala Military School in 2001.

Some of them are believed to be involved in the blasts at Malegaon in 2006 and 2008 as well as the Nanded blast in 2006.

Mysteriously a laptop said to belong to Lt. Col. Shrikant Purohit, an army officer arrested recently after investigations, has disappeared. The laptop is said to contain all the 54 names.

In New Delhi, CBI Director Ashwini Kumar told PTI that the investigating agency was trying to look into the links between the Malegaon and Nanded blasts.

“There is a possible link between Nanded and Malegaon blasts. We are probing it,” he said. The accused arrested by Maharashtra’s Anti-Terrorism Squad may be questioned.

Sources said some of those arrested by the ATS Mumbai have told the investigators about they having been in touch with those arrested in Nanded by the CBI and subsequently charge-sheeted earlier this year.

Director of Bhonsala Military School, Suresh Joglekar said the school had answered questions posed to them by the ATS about the camp held by Bajrang Dal in 2001.

“We have provided all the details about the camp held in 2001 to the Mumbai ATS. We had been sent a questionnaire to which we have replied already,” Mr. Joglekar.

He said the questions were mainly on who had booked the school premises for Bajrang Dal in 2001 and whether the accused arrested by the CBI in Nanded blasts had been trained in that camp.

VHP appeals to NHRC, NCW against Pragya's arrest
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/10v ... arrest.htm

November 10, 2008 15:40 IST

The Vishwa Hindu Parishad on Sunday moved the National Human Rights Commission and the National Commission for Women, challenging the 'illegal arrest' of Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur in the Malegaon blast case.

Punjab VHP spokesman Vijay Singh Bhardwaj moved the petition against the Maharashtra government and the Anti Terrorist Squad, accusing them of arresting Pragya without 'any proper investigation'.

Bhardwaj, who was accompanied by Arvind Thakur, chairperson of an NGO Global Human Rights Council, told reporters that Pragya's arrest was a result of political vendetta.

They claimed that the Sadhvi's fundamental rights like gender equality and right to life and liberty had been violated.

"Just on the basis of the recovery of a motorcycle at the place of incident, which was owned by her many years ago, she (Pragya) has been arrested, which amounts to a clear violation of her rights," the duo said.

The petition further states that no one should be subjected, without his or her consent, to medical and scientific experimentation. The VHP claimed that Pragya had undergone more than 36 scientific tests, including three narco tests.

"All tests were conducted on Pragya by putting pressure on her, besides the threats by the Maharashtra government and the ATS," they alleged.

Thakur said that their petition had been accepted by the NHRC and the NCW.

[sum]

Mumbai/New Delhi: As they uncover a wide network of those involved in the Malegaon blast with linkages to an earlier explosion at Nanded too, investigators were on Sunday looking for 54 people suspected to have been given arms training at a military school in Nagpur.

Highly-placed sources involved in the investigation into the blast at Malegaon on September 29 that killed six persons, said that interrogation of suspects indicated that 54 people had been given training in handling of arms and explosives at Bhonsala Military School in 2001.

Some of them are believed to be involved in the blasts at Malegaon in 2006 and 2008 as well as the Nanded blast in 2006.

How exactly did they come to this conclusion(the bolded part)?

IIRC, each of the other blasts had the CBI/ATS filing charge sheets saying that there was no Hindu outfit involvement after very detailed(acc to them) investigation. Also, it was the Kangress itself which was ruling at that time(so, no reason that evil BJP govt fudged facts to get CBI to file such charge sheets). Very weird indeed.

[R Vaidya]

N^3 Wrote
The target here is much broader and deeper than this Swami or that LtCol or some other Saadhvi.--
That is the point. Power Corrupts ,Absolute power corrupts absolutely and immeninent loss of power corrupts infinetely.

There are powerful forces operating to discredit IA-- as of now Maharashtra CM is a pawn.
Chief of IA would have reached MMS who would have counselled Maharshtra CM through MoD.--but Maha CM 's leader is not MMS--That is an issue. Even President would have been reached by a person like Pawar --But President is powerless to dissuade Maha CM from destroying institutions-- 2 minute byte TV's are running riot. Sordid games are played for short term gains. Major institution --IA-- is getting damaged-- What is the game plan --Who is going to benefit? One needs to wait and see.
One unintended thing is happening --in the process a powerful woman Thakur leader is getting created in northern India -If she is guilty then she wins for upholding "thakur" tradition and if she is innocent then she becomes a unstoppable heroine--
rvaidya

[enqyoob]

Vaidya:

My hope is also that this turns out to be a false accusation, and that the Maha goons get so discredited that they finally do something about the T.S. gang that got them the poo on the face.

I don't think anyone remembers what I do about the roots of this, because ppl may not have read certain documents of years ago with the same deep interest that I did.

Strange issue: Why did the Gujarat govt allow the Maharashtra ATS to go raid the ashram in the Dangs? Shouldn't that be under the jurisdiction of the Gujarat ATS? Vaidya, any comment on this?


Think about it - if one were and stupid enough to go plan to put a bum on a motorcycle and inflate it, how many ppl need to be involved in it? OK, so now we hear that an Army Intelligence officer, a Saadhvi, 2 (or is it 5) other Army ppl, some retired Army officers, and now a poor guy running a school in the middle of the forest in southern Gujarat, are ALL involved in this? If u were planning something like this, would YOU put it on the public email or cellphone list and get all these people involved?

That's the clearest indication that this is a witch-hunt, not a terrorism investigation. Or if this was some great gang, ALL they managed so far, is one measly blast? In 2+ years? Is this credible?

I think I'll retreat to the Khabar-e-Jehad thread - the worthies there set off a blast every 30 minutes.

[SBajwa]

Narco Analysis, truth serum, etc do not proove anything.

If I have been surfing BR and reading the military thread and half an hour later you give me this "truth serum". I will be talking everything about bombs and explosions, etc. (whatever is in my brain) and if I fantasize about exploding the mosque somewhere it will come out as I am involved somewhere, and if people are chirping malegaon, malegaon, malegaon, malegaon, malegaon, malegaon, malegaon, malegaon, malegaon, malegaon, malegaon, malegaon, around me I will sure say mosque at malegoan.

It has been prooven tool for the lazy police who wants to get over with the unresolved cases.

[satya]

Way Maharashtra ATS has been leaking info. to media unidirectionally pointing towards a 'right wing Hindu extremists ' role in blasts points towards a witch hunt for political gains in coming general election ( Absence of Gujrat ATS for one ). There's no conspiracy against IA , its just that current lot of politicians know only one game to play their politics and they don't know any other . Even when certain politicians want they can't for the rules of political game remains the same . People know this so do the politicians , its a high stake poker for current Politicos all desperately wanting to hang in the next general election just to make sure their utradikharis can take their place be it Maharashtra's first families of Pawars & Thackreys or in DMK or in Haryana's Chautala Clan or Bhajan Lal's son . Everywhere the old guard knows next election will probably be their last in active roles so they want to make the transition smooth . Where it has already occured for example in Punjab , things are smooth .

As for Hindus under attack theory, when was the last time , were Hindus not under attack ?Its a good theory/plot/agenda for political gains just like call & put options BJP gains being for and Congress against this theory so it will go on as this is the only game in town and we on BRF are also making our 2 cents ( Euro/USD) contributions in this theory if i may say .

[shiv]

You need to learn the difference between "good terrorism" an "bad terrorism"

Good terrorism is when there is a perfectly valid reason to kill people. For example - let me tell you folks a fully cooked up theoretical scenario.

Imagine for a minute that a country has a majority group and a minority group. Imagine that the majority have some absurd and incredible beliefs about say a "Blue man" who killed a ten headed ogre and that this blue man was born in some town. Now imagine (all totally imaginary of course) that the minority community had a peaceful prayer place - in this blue man's imagined birthplace.

Imagine a scenario when a horde of people from the majority group mindlessly bring down the prayer place saying that it occupies a sacred spot that marked the said Blue man's birth. Naturally it is right for the minority group to be sad and upset about the bringing down of a harmless building - an act that could even have killed people - if any had been under the building.

Now if some members of the minority group decide to kill people all over the country in repeated attacks as a blowback for bringing down this building it is good terrorism. There is a reason. A justification for keeping on and on and on killing people. This would be perfectly understandable. Good terrorism is understandable and justified.

Bad terrorism also can be described using a totally hypothetical example. In the same imaginary majority-minority land that I mentioned above, imagine that the majority have a grouse and express that grouse. That would be bad terrorism. Inexcusable. I can think of worse scenarios. Imagine a train full of majority yahoos who disturb the minority. A natural reaction that leads to the deaths by burning of some of these yahoos is not terrorism. But a needless angry reaction to these deaths would be bad terrorism.

Once again - continuous bomb blasts as a blowback for bad terrorism is good terrorism.

Of course these are only hypothetical examples, but if you give me real life examples of terrorism that has occurred in India, I will be able to tell you whether it is good terrorism or bad terrorism. This forum needs a serious improvement in the level of debate - so feel free to consult me.

Is there any action that is not terrosrim at all, good or bad?

Yes.

For example all terrorism that occurred more than 30 years ago is not terrorism. In those days - more than 30 years ago those old fogeys knew nothing and it matters little that a few stupid temples were destroyed to make way for civilization. I mention this only to dismiss the fools who even mention any event that took place more than 30 years ago and "terrorism" or "genocide" in the same breath.

[RamaY]

Vaidya:

Think about it - if one were and stupid enough to go plan to put a bum on a motorcycle and inflate it, how many ppl need to be involved in it? OK, so now we hear that an Army Intelligence officer, a Saadhvi, 2 (or is it 5) other Army ppl, some retired Army officers, and now a poor guy running a school in the middle of the forest in southern Gujarat, are ALL involved in this? If u were planning something like this, would YOU put it on the public email or cellphone list and get all these people involved?

That's the clearest indication that this is a witch-hunt, not a terrorism investigation. Or if this was some great gang, ALL they managed so far, is one measly blast? In 2+ years? Is this credible?

[Sarcasm on]

This calls for a complete revamp of our military intel guys, IMHO

Look at these losers… they were trying to blow up minorities.. all they could do was get their hands on Indian RDX … they didn’t even think of using all those Pakistani/Chinese made explosives that we amassed from various terrorist dumps... and they used their own bikes… haa haa haaa

[\Sarcasm off]

[indygill]

http://www.dailypioneer.com/132107/Hind ... e-UPA.html


***The failures on the law and order and economic fronts fall in the area of incompetence, but strangely those in power are totally oblivious of their disastrous records. Such is their detachment from reality that some of the Ministers take sadistic pleasure in showcasing their failures by mouthing the very same inanities after every calamity.

*** second reason — the evil designs of those who run Government — is far more dangerous, because of its potential to destroy all that has been built over the last 60 years. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh gave the first inclination of the depraved thinking within his Government when he made that astounding statement that Muslims had the first right on the country’s resources. I have never heard anything more inane than this. Taking the cue from the Prime Minister, other members of his Government did even greater damage to the country’s unity, its secular fabric and rule of law when they vied with each other to commiserate with the family of Abu Bashar, the man identified by the police as the mastermind behind the Ahmedabad and Jaipur bombings that killed over a hundred people and wounded several hundred more. These very Ministers — Mr Lalu Prasad Yadav and Mr Ram Vilas Paswan — later questioned the police version of the Jamia Nagar encounter in which a Delhi Police officer laid down his life.


***The ruling coalition’s diabolical agenda was carried forward by Mr Rajinder Sachar through his report on the status of Muslims in India. This committee, which conducted itself in the most irresponsible manner, wanted a communal head count in the armed forces. Thereafter, it submitted a report that carried baseless accusations against all and sundry for the so-called plight of Muslims in the country.

***The Constitution of any country — be it India, America, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan — reflects the will of the majority in that society.

***the survival of such Constitutions in multi-ethnic and multi-cultural societies is subject to a rider — namely, the state (meaning the legislature, the judiciary and the bureaucracy) should enjoy the confidence of the majority. Democracy becomes unworkable and unviable when the majority loses faith in the state. Should such a situation ever arise, tectonic changes could occur and the first casualty could be the country’s Constitution and democracy.

[Rahul M]

Teach music, poetry, Sanskrit, physical activities, and provide other electives for kids other interests. Although you may not agree with some of the graduates, Amartya Sen and Satyajit Ray were both products of Tagore's Santiniketan schooling system that focused on all aspects of learning. He wrongly created an international curriculum, by incorporating miscellaneous learning from Japan, China, Europe, etc. instead of an all Indian one.

keshav, please go through this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visva-Bharati_University
also,

Visva-Bharati represents India where she has her wealth of mind which is for all.
Visva-Bharati acknowledges India's obligation to offer to others the hospitality
of her best culture and India's right to accept from others their best

http://www.visva-bharati.ac.in/
Rabindranath wanted to re-create a gurukul in modern times. It was his way of saying 'duh' to western style education. FYI, He himself didn't like formal schooling and was educated at home.