Understanding Sikh History-1

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jan 2012 09:54

I have always marveled at the coincident of Mughal appearance and departure happened in the same time period Gurus were here on Earth. Babar impirsoned Gurr Nanak and Aurnaga died before meeting Guru Gobind Singh .Whole Moghul rulers became Noghul within few decades after Guru's departure. The last Emperor B. Shah died a pitiful man .

niran · Post by **niran** » 23 Jan 2012 10:39

Jhujar wrote: The last Emperor B. Shah died a pitiful man .

coz kompany bahadur made an example out of him to scare others harboring sinful
thoughts "Azadi" we know about him, in reality at least 3 generations of his forefathers were living
in abject poverty if we compare them to Aurangzeb times.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jan 2012 10:43

http://themoderatevoice.com/135742/indi ... -the-soul/
India’s Golden Temple: Music For The Soul

Ever heard of a place where you can enjoy live Western classical music round-the-clock? Perhaps there is none. However, if you are interested in attending a non-stop Indian classical music concert round the year, then the place to visit is the Golden Temple (or Harmandir Sahib) at Amritsar in northern India. This place is the rallying point of the followers of Sikh religion worldwide. Music wafts across with different musicians (Ragis) taking turn to sing … The acoustics are superb and BOSE speakers dot the huge complex. The total number of Ragas (melodic modes) used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib is 31. At the temple, one can feel the atmosphere charged with a remarkable sense of service and humanity. A huge constant flow of people, nearly 100,000 every day and night, offer prayers at the sanctum sanctorum and partake free food at the Golden Temple complex. It is a unique sight, and experience, not seen anywhere else in the world. One can lounge anywhere in the area surrounding the Darbar Sahib (the sanctum sanctorum) and the Sarovar (the pond). We enjoyed the Kirtans/Ragas from different spots…even right inside the Darbar Sahib where the holy Guru Granth Sahib is kept (and where you can also see the Ragis), and also from the first and second floor of the sanctum sanctorum. Every state in India has thousands of holy places and temples belonging to different religions. They have their magnetic pull and beauty. I visit only a few selected ones. I am not exactly excited at the thought of visiting religious places because of the general confusion, noise and lack of sense of cleanliness and hygiene…

My visit to the Golden Temple was an eye-opener … Such devotion, cleanliness, good free food, music, peace and tranquility. And with no one in particular enforcing order or discipline

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 23 Jan 2012 23:57

Sushupti wrote:what is unique,new or special about it?.

Religions are not characterized by "New" or "Unique". Copyright law, patent law, and scientific publications live and die by "New/Unique".

If you want new stuff, read scientific journals, religions are not based on this.

Sikhism itself never claims to have brought new theology---it accepts the fundamental validity of Hinduism & Islam. There are verses in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib which say that the same Truth was there in Vedas, although man may have forgoten it. It believes the same truth is in islamic texts (Quran, Toras, Anjeel etc.) too.

This is a history thread, so we should not venture into matters that deal with releigion per se.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 24 Jan 2012 00:37

This is a history thread, so we should not venture into matters that deal with releigion per se.

Last 130 years, post Macaullife history of Sikhism is born out of this new interpretation of Sikhism. How can we avoid this if we want to discuss Sikh history?.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 24 Jan 2012 00:54

Sushupti wrote:
This is a history thread, so we should not venture into matters that deal with releigion per se.
Last 130 years, post Macaullife history of Sikhs is born out of this new interpretation of Sikhism. How can we avoid this if we want to discuss Sikh history?.

Firstly, that is an incorrect claim. It is implied more as an accusation, than as any reading of history.

Secondly, you did not understand what I said. Religious theoology, doctrice, subtle spiritual discussions are not the domain of BRF, nor of this thread. We should deal can deal with history & sociology of releigion--that is fair game.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Jan 2012 01:19

Jhujar wrote:I have always marveled at the coincident of Mughal appearance and departure happened in the same time period Gurus were here on Earth. Babar impirsoned Gurr Nanak and Aurnaga died before meeting Guru Gobind Singh.

It is truly the modern, multi-generational epic of this era that played out on the holy soil of Bhaarata, with so many lessons to learn from all the characters. Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote a fitting swan song to the senile Aurangzeb and his dynasty, which was not able to make a clean transition from primordial barbaric tendencies to high humanistic civilization, in spite of the myriad opportunities it had living in this land. Its called the Fatehnamah.

Its just 24 verses, and boldly declares the facts of time, and is actually still advising and admonishing Aurangzeb. Its amazing that, having just escaped against overwhelming odds from a siege and assassination attempt, GGS ji was able to write - in verse! - to his persecutor and murderer of his sons, with words of wisdom and warning. He was still willing to meet with the old Mogul and accept his apologies. There can be no doubt who is Guru here.

1. be naam e khodaavand e tegh o tabar
khodaavand e teer o sanaan o separ!

In the Name of the Lord of the sword and shield!
Lord of arrow, battleaxe and spear!

2. khodaavand e mardaan e jang-aazmaa
khodaavand e aspaan paa dar havaa!

Lord of those men that experience battle!
Lord of their horses that fly through the air!

3. hamaan koo toraa paadshaahi bedaad
bemaa dowlat e deen-panaahi bedaad!

The same Lord that granted you a material kingdom
To me He entrusted the protection of the Dharma!

4. toraa Tork-Taazi ba makr o riyaa
maraa chaareh-saazi ba sedq o safaa!

Whereas you engaged in plunder by deceit and hypocrisy
To me was left the responsibility of creating the Way of truth and purity! [Note the word Tork-Taazi, which literally means "Turk-Arab" in Farsi, but is a term used to mean plunder and vandalism, pillage and rape in that language.]

5. na zeebad toraa naam e Aurangzeb
ze aurangzeebaan na yaabad fareeb!

The name "Aurangzeb" does not befit you,
Since one doesn't find fraud in that which is supposed to bring "honor to the throne"!

6. tasbeehat az shojeh o reshteye beesh
kazaan daaneh saazi vazaan daam e kheesh!

Your rosary is nothing more than a bundle of beads and threads,
With every movement of your beads you only increase the extent of your snare of entanglements!

7. to khaak e pedar ra ba kerdaar e zesht
ba khoon e baraadar bedaadi seresht!

Your nature and disposition is moulded by your grisly deeds,
By your father's name in the dust, by the murder of your brothers.

8. vazaan khaaneye khaam kardi banaa
baraaye dar a dowlat e kheesh ra!

And from that (by imprisoning your father and murdering your brothers) you have laid a weak foundation of your kingdom.

9. man aknoon ba afzaal e Purush e Akaal
konam ze aab e aahan chonaan barshgaal

"Now by the grace of the Lord, I have made the water of steel (Amrit
for my warriors) which will fall upon you like a torrent."

10. ke hargiz az aan chaardeevaar e shoom
neshaani namaanad bar een paak boom!

And with this torrent your sinister castle will vanish from this holy land without a trace!

11. ze kooh e dakkan teshneh-kaam aamadi
ze mewaar ham talkh-jaam aamadi

You came thirsty (defeated) from the mountains of Deccan; the Rajputs have also made you drink the bitter cup (of defeat).

12. bar een soo chon aknoon negaahat ravad
ke aan talkhi o teshnegeet ravad

Now you are casting your sight towards this side (Punjab). Here also your thirst will remain unquenched.

13. chonaan aatash e zeer n'al at naham
ze panjaab aabat na khordan daham

I will put fire under your feet when you come to Punjab and I will not let you even drink water here.

14. che shod gar shaghaal ba makr o riyaa
hameen kosht do bacheye sher ra?

What is so great if a jackal kills two cubs of a tiger by deceit and
cunning?

15. chon sher e zhiyaan zendeh maanad hamee
ze to enteqaam setaanad hamee!

Since that formidable tiger is still alive, he will definitely extract revenge on you!

16. na deegar garaayam ba naam e khodaat
ke deedam khodaa va kalaam e khodaat!

I no longer trust you or your 'God' since I have now seen your 'God' as well as his word.

17. ba saugand e to e'tebaar na maanad
maraa joz ba shamsheer kaar na maanad

I do not trust your oaths any more and now there is no other way for me except to take up the sword.

18. tuye gorg e baaraan kesheedeh agar
naham neez sher ze daam bedar

If you are an old fox, I will too keep my tigers out of your snare.

19. agar baaz goft o sheedat ba maast
namaayam toraa jaadeye paak o raast

If you come to me for detailed and frank talks, I shall show you the
path of purity and truthfulness.

20. be maidaan do lashkar saf-araee shavand
ze doori be ham aashkaaraa shavand

Let the forces from both sides array in the battlefield at such a
distance that they are visible to each other.

21. miyaan e har do maanad do farsang e raah
chon aaraasteh gardad een razm-gaah

The battle field should be arranged decoratively in such a manner that both the forces should be separated by a reasonable distance (of two
furlongs).

22. az aan pas dar aan arseye kaarzaar
man aayam be nazd e to ba do savaar

Then I will advance in the battle field for combat with your forces
along with two of my riders.

23. to az naaz o ne'mat samar khordeh
ze jangi javaanaan na bar khordeh

So far you have been enjoying the fruits of a cosy and comfortable
life but haven't yet collided with fierce warriors (in the battle field).

24. be maidaan biyaa khod ba tegh o tabar
makon khalq e khalaaq zir o zebar

Now come into the battle field with your weapons and stop tormenting
the people who are the creation of the Lord.

----------------------

Perhaps the epic's end is yet to be written in this generation or the next. But the Guru has given only 2 choices to the implacable foe, greedy for domination - humility or humiliation.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Jan 2012 01:50

Carl Sir,
Fatehnama provided the great template for developing guidelines to deal with Islamists . It is sad to note that such wisdom is not allowed to be practiced in our false secularist mileu. Jackals and vultures are still feasting in our vitality, weakning us from inside.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 24 Jan 2012 02:02

Jhujar wrote:I have always marveled at the coincident of Mughal appearance and departure happened in the same time period Gurus were here on Earth. Babar impirsoned Gurr Nanak and Aurnaga died before meeting Guru Gobind Singh .Whole Moghul rulers became Noghul within few decades after Guru's departure. The last Emperor B. Shah died a pitiful man .

Bharat always brings out the forces to protect it whenever it is under threat.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Jan 2012 02:19

Jhujar wrote:Carl Sir,
Fatehnama provided the great template for developing guidelines to deal with Islamists . It is sad to note that such wisdom is not allowed to be practiced in our false secularist mileu. Jackals and vultures are still feasting in our vitality, weakning us from inside.

Jhujar ji, even the Guru was attacked by, both, Mughal Islamist running dogs as well as Hindu Rajas who were once Mughal allies, but who were willing to use the Dharma card and switch sides in order to assume power. The same Guru was also defended by both, enlightened Hindu followers as well as certain types of enlightened Sufi Moslem followers. With this small band of devoted supporters from diverse backgrounds, the Guru was able to overcome such a massive and deceitful opposition -- including some who had been offering opportunistic alliances. Its amazing, reminiscent of the Rigvedic victory of King Sudaas in the War of Ten Kings. RigVeda 7.18.17 stresses that this was a victory against all odds, compared to a ram defeating a lion.

IMHO, the method today also has to be that subtle and correct, like a razor's edge, one that cuts into the hearts of men, and not merely based on nationalistic slogans and politics. The rashtra is a beneficiary of dharma, not the other way round. The other important point is the role of defectors, those from the core of the other's side who switch over and become one's most inspired soldiers/advisors.

So, in our times many mistakes have been made, because forces are in a hurry due to power calculation or due to anger. But patience and sincerity will lead to adjustments that will end in victory, at a time of God's choosing.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Jan 2012 02:55

Carl Ji,
One thing i know is that we Indics have never shied away from battle for right cause but we also had/have many who are always eager to join the opposing forces. Had Hill Rajas joined the Guru from the beginning , India of today would have been entirely different entity.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 24 Jan 2012 07:52

http://voi.org/books/wiah/ch8.htm#50a

Tegh Bahadur’s son and successor, Govind Singh, only fought the Moghul army when he was forced to, and it was hardly to protect Hinduism. His men had been plundering the domains of the semi-independent Hindu Rajas in the hills of northeastern Panjab, who had given him asylum after his father’s execution.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 24 Jan 2012 08:18

^^^

ਮਨਮ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਹਅਮ ਕੋਹਿਯਾਂ ਪੁਰਫਿਤਨ ॥ ਕਿ ਆਂ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤੰਦੁ ਮਨ ਬੁਤਸ਼ਿਕਨ ॥੯੫॥
मनम कुशतहअम कोहियां पुरफितन ॥ कि आं बुत परसतंदु मन बुतशिकन ॥९५॥
I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=2271

ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ਸ ਸ਼ਾਹਿ ਸ਼ਾਹਾਨ ਔਰੰਗਜ਼ੇਬ ॥ ਕਿ ਚਾਲਾਕ ਦਸਤੁ ਅਸਤੁ ਚਾਬੁਕ ਰਕੇਬ ॥੮੯॥
ख़ुशस शाहि शाहान औरंगज़ेब ॥ कि चालाक दसतु असतु चाबुक रकेब ॥८९॥
You are king of king, O fortunate Aurangzeb; you are a clever administrator and a good horseman.89.

ਚਿ ਹੁਸਨੁਲ ਜਮਾਲਸਤੁ ਰੌਸ਼ਨ ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ॥ ਖ਼ੁਦਾਵੰਦ ਮੁਲਕ ਅਸਤੁ ਸਾਹਿਬਿ ਅਮੀਰ ॥੯੦॥
चि हुसनुल जमालसतु रौशन ज़मीर ॥ ख़ुदावंद मुलक असतु साहिबि अमीर ॥९०॥
With the help of your intelligence and the sword, you have become the master of Deg and Tegh.90.

ਕਿ ਤਰਤੀਬ ਦਾਨਿਸ਼ ਬ ਤਦਬੀਰ ਤੇਗ਼ ॥ ਖ਼ੁਦਾਵੰਦਿ ਦੇਗੋ ਖ਼ੁਦਾਵੰਦ ਤੇਗ਼ ॥੯੧॥
कि तरतीब दानिश ब तदबीर तेग़ ॥ ख़ुदावंदि देगो ख़ुदावंद तेग़ ॥९१॥
You are the acme of beauty and wiseom; you are the chief of chiefs and the king.91.

ਕਿ ਰੌਸ਼ਨ ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ਅਸਤੁ ਹੁਸਨੁਲ ਜਮਾਲ ॥ ਖ਼ੁਦਾਵੰਦ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿੰਦਹੇ ਮੁਲਕੁ ਮਾਲ ॥੯੨॥
कि रौशन ज़मीर असतु हुसनुल जमाल ॥ ख़ुदावंद बख़शिंदहे मुलकु माल ॥९२॥
You are the acme of beauty and wisdom; you are the master of the country and its wealth.92.

ਕਿ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਸਤੁ ਦਰ ਜੰਗ ਕੋਹ ॥ ਮਲਾਯਕ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ ਚੂੰ ਸੁਰੱਯਾ ਸ਼ਿਕੋਹ ॥੯੩॥
कि बख़शिश कबीर असतु दर जंग कोह ॥ मलायक सिफ़त चूं सु्रया शिकोह ॥९३॥
You are most generous and a mountain in the battlefield; you are like angels wielding high splendour.93.

ਸ਼ਹਿਨਸ਼ਾਹ ਔਰੰਗਜ਼ੇਬ ਆਲਮੀਂ ॥ ਕਿ ਦਾਰਾਇ ਦੌਰ ਅਸਤੁ ਦੂਰ ਅਸਤ ਦੀਂ ॥੯੪॥
शहिनशाह औरंगज़ेब आलमीं ॥ कि दाराइ दौर असतु दूर असत दीं ॥९४॥
Though you are the king of kings, O Aurangzeb ! you are far from righteousness and justice.94.

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=2270

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Jan 2012 09:01

Sushupti wrote:ਕਿ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਸਤੁ ਦਰ ਜੰਗ ਕੋਹ ॥ ਮਲਾਯਕ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ ਚੂੰ ਸੁਰੱਯਾ ਸ਼ਿਕੋਹ ॥੯੩॥
कि बख़शिश कबीर असतु दर जंग कोह ॥ मलायक सिफ़त चूं सु्रया शिकोह ॥९३॥
You are most generous and a mountain in the battlefield; you are like angels wielding high splendour.93.

ਸ਼ਹਿਨਸ਼ਾਹ ਔਰੰਗਜ਼ੇਬ ਆਲਮੀਂ ॥ ਕਿ ਦਾਰਾਇ ਦੌਰ ਅਸਤੁ ਦੂਰ ਅਸਤ ਦੀਂ ॥੯੪॥
शहिनशाह औरंगज़ेब आलमीं ॥ कि दाराइ दौर असतु दूर असत दीं ॥९४॥
Though you are the king of kings, O Aurangzeb ! you are far from righteousness and justice.94.

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=2270

So? I don't see your point. This is from the Zafarnamah. Assuming it is verbatim from GGS ji's letter to Aurangzeb, it follows common protocol and is generous in acknowledging anything good, but then lays it on pretty thick when it comes to admonishment, of which you have posted just the 1st line here.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 24 Jan 2012 11:14

^^

Sushupti, Carl said is it better than I could. Read the whole letter---Carl has posted the remaining ones. Salutations such are these were the norm of the society---the interesting comment later when the holy guru tells Aurangzeb that he is an unbeleiver, he took false oaths on the Quran. The zafarnama is scathing.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 24 Jan 2012 11:26

Jhujar wrote:I have always marveled at the coincident of Mughal appearance and departure happened in the same time period Gurus were here on Earth. Babar impirsoned Gurr Nanak and Aurnaga died before meeting Guru Gobind Singh .Whole Moghul rulers became Noghul within few decades after Guru's departure. The last Emperor B. Shah died a pitiful man .

Jhujar veer Ji, you have asked a very interesting and important question. I cannot say much on this forum. Within the Sikh faith, there is a narrative of how this came about. Many Sikh saints have clarified this conincidence and how it came about, but that is not a discussion fit for this forum.

Mughals had seven shots at being padhah's of Hindustan (including getting the gaddi twice by Humayun). Ultimately, when Aurangzeb in his religion-blindeed madness killed the 9th Guru, his dynasty's ghara of paap was filled to the brim. From that time onwards, Mughals declined at a lightening pace. Most don't know, but 7-8 Mughal kings came after him and most people don't even recall them (except the last one). Basically, after the Martyrdom, Muslim power in India vanished and has never re-gained its standing, even today.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 24 Jan 2012 11:34

Most people do not realize that half the wars that Guru Gobind Singh Ji fought were with the Hindu Rajput Hill Rajas of hills of current day Himachal. Some of these of them were devotees of the Guru and remained faithful, some not. Some alternated between war and friendship. When Guru Ji was attacked at Anandpur Sahib, it is was the combined forces of the Musim Mughal Aurangzeb & Hindu Hill Rajas. Some of these battles have been described by the Guru himself in his Granth.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 24 Jan 2012 12:38

surinder wrote:^^

Sushupti, Carl said is it better than I could. Read the whole letter---Carl has posted the remaining ones. Salutations such are these were the norm of the society---the interesting comment later when the holy guru tells Aurangzeb that he is an unbeleiver, he took false oaths on the Quran. The zafarnama is scathing.

Believe me, i became aware of all these while debating Khalistanis (i don't know what other term to use) and they were quoting all of the above to prove that how Sikhism is different from Hinduism and is more like a monotheist religions from you know where. Specially this one is most often quoted verse to show the anti-Hindu (or Brahamanical if you like) character of Sikh faith.

ਮਨਮ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਹਅਮ ਕੋਹਿਯਾਂ ਪੁਰਫਿਤਨ ॥ ਕਿ ਆਂ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤੰਦੁ ਮਨ ਬੁਤਸ਼ਿਕਨ ॥੯੫॥
मनम कुशतहअम कोहियां पुरफितन ॥ कि आं बुत परसतंदु मन बुतशिकन ॥९५॥
I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=2271

Let me tell you, Dasam Guru lost some respect of mine. I don't know how to justify it. What was he expecting from Auranga while saying things like above?.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 24 Jan 2012 19:39

Sushupati, reading a lines out of context is not the way to understand anythihng. While respecting and not respecting something is your personal choice, not something I care much about, it is to be considered that you are stuck on the first few lines and unable to see the entire letter. Some of the direct, hard-hitting frank things said to the Aurangzeb seem to have not attracted your attention. That is your choice.

Sikhs & their Gurus have not broken any physical idols. Did you wonder why the Guru never commented on the idols of the Kashmiri Brahmins? Why did he just mention only the Hill Rajas?

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 24 Jan 2012 19:43

Tegh Bahadur’s son and successor, Govind Singh, only fought the Moghul army when he was forced to, and it was hardly to protect Hinduism. His men had been plundering the domains of the semi-independent Hindu Rajas in the hills of northeastern Panjab, who had given him asylum after his father’s execution.

Anandpur Sahib was founded in the year 1665 by the ninth Sikh Guru, Guru Tegh Bahadur, near the ruins of an ancient place, Makhowal. On May 13, 1665, Guru Tegh Bahadur went to Bilaspur to attend the mourning for Raja Dip Chand of Bilaspur State. The Dowager Rani Champa of Bilaspur offered to give the Guru a piece of land in her state. The land consisted of the villages of Lodhipur, Mianpur and Sahota. Here on the mound of Makhowal, Guru Tegh Bahadur raised a new habitation. The ground was broken on 19 June 1665, by Baba Gurditta Ji. The new village was named Chakk Nanaki after the Guru's mother, Nanaki. The place later came to be known as Anandpur Sahib.

Guru Teghbahadur lived at Anandpur before he went to Delhi from Anandpur for martyrdom in 1675. Guru Gobind Singh lived at Anandpur till 1705. All battles were fought

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Jan 2012 20:38

Sushupti wrote: ਮਨਮ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਹਅਮ ਕੋਹਿਯਾਂ ਪੁਰਫਿਤਨ ॥ ਕਿ ਆਂ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤੰਦੁ ਮਨ ਬੁਤਸ਼ਿਕਨ ॥੯੫॥
मनम कुशतहअम कोहियां पुरफितन ॥ कि आं बुत परसतंदु मन बुतशिकन ॥९५॥
I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.

Indeed, those hill rajas were idolators, and it is the Guru's task to break false idols. Remember, 'idol' is different from archa-vigraha (murthi worship). The same Gurus also protected Kashmiri Pundits, etc.

Asslike mentality, no matter what sectarian affiliation, is all in the same basket. Whether it was Aurangzeb, Hill rajas, 'khalistanis', etc, they fall on the wrong side of Guru-tattva. They want to set up a dogmatic political position and build a fort around it. Their stubborn fortified cults are normally broken with time.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 24 Jan 2012 20:42

Carl wrote:
Sushupti wrote: ਮਨਮ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਹਅਮ ਕੋਹਿਯਾਂ ਪੁਰਫਿਤਨ ॥ ਕਿ ਆਂ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤੰਦੁ ਮਨ ਬੁਤਸ਼ਿਕਨ ॥੯੫॥
मनम कुशतहअम कोहियां पुरफितन ॥ कि आं बुत परसतंदु मन बुतशिकन ॥९५॥
I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.
Indeed, those hill rajas were idolators, and it is the Guru's task to break false idols. Remember, 'idol' is different from archa-vigraha (murthi worship). The same Gurus also protected Kashmiri Pundits, etc.

Asslike mentality, no matter what sectarian affiliation, is all in the same basket. Whether it was Aurangzeb, Hill rajas, 'khalistanis', etc, they fall on the wrong side of Guru-tattva. They want to set up a dogmatic political position and build a fort around it. Their stubborn fortified cults are normally broken with time.

Well said! but

"After his defeat and escape (made possible by the self-sacrifice of a disciple who impersonated the Guru), Govind Singh in his turn became a loyal subject of the Moghul Empire. He felt he had been treated unfairly by the local governor, Wazir Khan, so he did what aggrieved vassals do: he wrote a letter of complaint to his suzerain, not through the hierarchical channels but straight to the Padeshah. In spite of its title and its sometimes defiant wording, this “victory letter” (Zafar Nâma) to Aurangzeb is fundamentally submissive. Among other things, Govind assures Aurangzeb that he is just as much an idol-breaker as the Padeshah himself: “I am the destroyer of turbulent hillmen, since they are idolators and I am the breaker of idols.”55 Aurangzeb was sufficiently pleased with the correspondence (possibly several letters) he received from the Guru, for he ordered Wazir Khan not to trouble Govind any longer."

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/wiah/ch8.htm

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 24 Jan 2012 20:54

it isn't just the Sikhs that the Rajput rajas fought. I'm sure this is going to turn out to be one h*** of a divisive topic but even during Shivaji's time, it was the Hindu Rajputs who fought spectacular battles against the Marathas, and not the Muslims in service of Bijapur or Delhi. time and again the staunchest and most formidable challenge to Shivaji was thrown by Hindu kings under Mughal service, not the Muslims themselves!!! Jai Singh, the Rajput, is a prime example...all of the battles against Shivaji which were directed or commanded by RoP wallah, failed.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 24 Jan 2012 21:17

Sushupati!! once again

Dasam Granth is the wrong book to quote from and expecting that this is what Guru Gobind singh wrote. Dasam granth includes writings of 50+ various poets who were living in the protection of Guru Gobind Singh and were afraid to write under their name.

You can continue to think that Guru Gobind singh was a villain of India (based on some book written thousands of years later) .

But the bottom line is that it was Guru Gobind Singh who

1. Created the Khalsa.
2. Sent Banda Bahadur from Nanded against Wazir Khan.

Here is the dateline.

Guru was forced to leave the fort of Anandpur (by Mughals and Hill Rajas) on the night of Dec 20/21 1705.
Most of the ancient books/knowledge were lost in this confusion (including the Adi Granth Sahib) not sure how Dasam Granth Survived (it might be a creation of a later day person)

Guru's mother and his two younger sons strayed away from the main party and were arrested by Wazir Khan. All three were executed in Wazir Khan's custody between December 23 - December 31st of 1705.

Guru Gobind Singh faced the Mughal (and hill rajas) at the fort of Chamkaur where Three of his Punj Piaras and two elder sons were martyred. Guru survived and was on run all over the current day Malwa (South Eastern punjab) he converted many thousands to Khalsa. He arrived at Damdama Sahib on Jan 20th 1706 and stayed with his sikh Baba Deep Singh. This place was under one Chaudhary named Dalla (Brar Jat). They both (Guru and Sikh) started copying the Adi Granth Sahib and distributing it to various places (so that this knowledge lives). He wrote Zafarman/Fatehnama from this place. Wazir Khan also wrote a letter to Dalla threatening him to hand him the Guru Gobind singh. Chaudhary Dalla forwarded this letter to Aurungzeb. Aurungzeb wanted to meet Guru Gobind singh and thus Guru Gobind Singh left for South in October 1706.

Aurungzeb Died on 3rd March 1707. Guru Gobind Singh wanted a better king to rule India so he started communications with Bahadur Shah I.

Wazir Khan was jealous of these communications between Guru Gobind singh and Bahadur Shah I., he employed two pathans (Jamshed Khan and Wasil Beg). Jamshed Khan stabbed Guru Gobind Singh just below his heart (left sid) when he was resting after Rehraas prayers, on 5th October 1708 and Guru passed away on 7th October 1708.

so!! That was the great game of 1700s and Taking things out of context and putting them in today's context is not a good thing to do.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 24 Jan 2012 21:35

devesh wrote:it isn't just the Sikhs that the Rajput rajas fought. I'm sure this is going to turn out to be one h*** of a divisive topic but even during Shivaji's time, it was the Hindu Rajputs who fought spectacular battles against the Marathas, and not the Muslims in service of Bijapur or Delhi. time and again the staunchest and most formidable challenge to Shivaji was thrown by Hindu kings under Mughal service, not the Muslims themselves!!! Jai Singh, the Rajput, is a prime example...all of the battles against Shivaji which were directed or commanded by RoP wallah, failed.

"Sikh history has its moments of heroism, but not particularly more than that of the Marathas or Rajputs. And like the Rajputs and Marathas, Sikhism also has a history of collaboration with the Moghul throne. Those who insist on glorifying Sikh or Rajput history, ought rather to reflect on the merits (for Hinduism) of collaboration with an unbeatable enemy: when Moghul power was at its strongest, collaboration by Hindu princes meant in practice that large parts of India were only under indirect Muslim control, so that Hindu culture could be preserved there.56 But of course, in the rhetoric of heroism dear to nationalist movements, the compromise aspect of history is not that inspiring, and we should not expect to hear neo-Sikhs glorify “the wise collaborator Govind Singh”.

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/wiah/ch8.htm

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Jan 2012 21:39

Sushupti wrote:"After his defeat and escape (made possible by the self-sacrifice of a disciple who impersonated the Guru), Govind Singh in his turn became a loyal subject of the Moghul Empire. He felt he had been treated unfairly by the local governor, Wazir Khan, so he did what aggrieved vassals do: he wrote a letter of complaint to his suzerain, not through the hierarchical channels but straight to the Padeshah. In spite of its title and its sometimes defiant wording, this “victory letter” (Zafar Nâma) to Aurangzeb is fundamentally submissive. Among other things, Govind assures Aurangzeb that he is just as much an idol-breaker as the Padeshah himself

I think this is a very tendentious reading of the facts. Try to re-evaluate your own strong biases and expectations. The letter follows protocol. Guru Gobind Singh is not focussed on some power-grab or implacable enmity at all. That was not his core mission as he saw it and articulated it. Political and social implacability and rigidness are not the mark of a Guru at all. To the greatest extent, any spiritual leader will live within the current law, not causing too much disruption insofar as it does not impede his spiritual mission. He will try to create more space within the current system, and friction will arise only when the system becomes too oppressive, as it eventually did. As for some sentences encouraging Aurangzeb and appealing to his pet obsessions ("idol breaking", etc), these are some of the ways Gurus use to pick up a potential disciple and turn him around. Nothing unusual or wrong with that at all.

All in all, GGS was a highly intelligent, courageous and imaginative person who needs to be studied. Rigid-minded people on different sides of communal divides (including some present day sikhs themselves!) will always find fault ot misuse the words or precedents set by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Tejo Mahalaya types will find fault with silly things like the above quotes, because they want total differentiation, confrontation and eliminationism. OTOH, one Pakjabi told me that Guru Gobind Singh had arrived at the chaukhat of Islam, but failed to make it across and declare himself fully Moslem!

And so on. Such menality can't be helped.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 24 Jan 2012 21:44

^^^
at several points, even Shivaji had to do the same. he had to appease the Mughals and proclaim his undying gratitude for allowing him to survive. there are letters of his where he tells the Mughals that he will be a loyal subject of the Mughal imperium and be a faithful soldier in Mughal forces if it is required of him.

so, I wouldn't necessarily lambast anybody for merely being prudent and appeasing the Mughals or other muslim powers. it is when this behavior becomes chronic and perennially the same forces ally with the same Mughals or Muslims against Hindus or Sikhs or other indigenous, that the motives and background should be questioned.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 24 Jan 2012 21:46

SBajwa wrote:Sushupati!! once again

Dasam Granth is the wrong book to quote from and expecting that this is what Guru Gobind singh wrote. Dasam granth includes writings of 50+ various poets who were living in the protection of Guru Gobind Singh and were afraid to write under their name.

You can continue to think that Guru Gobind singh was a villain of India (based on some book written thousands of years later) .

Same can be said about Guru Granth Sahib as well. This is typical Teja Singh Bhasauria type argument. What ever doesn't fit Macauliffe's model needs to edited out, even Guru Granth.

No, i don't consider him as villain of India.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 24 Jan 2012 21:48

Elst has written many pro-Hindu topics but this chapter was actually quite jarring to me when I read this article long back. It might be Elst's personal position on the matter. Elst is not the sole authority here. Can somebody translate the Farsi correctly?

Moreover, the "idol' might be Aurangzeb himself. Guru Gobind Singh might be addressing aurang in an indirect (tirjak mantabya) way like a riddle showing the consequences, not uncommon in Indian tradition.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 24 Jan 2012 21:49

devesh wrote:^^^
at several points, even Shivaji had to do the same. he had to appease the Mughals and proclaim his undying gratitude for allowing him to survive. there are letters of his where he tells the Mughals that he will be a loyal subject of the Mughal imperium and be a faithful soldier in Mughal forces if it is required of him.

so, I wouldn't necessarily lambast anybody for merely being prudent and appeasing the Mughals or other muslim powers. it is when this behavior becomes chronic and perennially the same forces ally with the same Mughals or Muslims against Hindus or Sikhs or other indigenous, that the motives and background should be questioned.

But Shivaji wasn't in communication with God. He was just a king or a wannabe king.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 24 Jan 2012 21:50

the compromise aspect of history is not that inspiring

what other options do the Sikh Gurus had when "The Jats, Satnamis and various other sects were brutally suppressed and made extinct."

And it is not Govind! It is Gobind!

Guru Gobind Singh didn't collaborated with Mughals rather he opened communications with them to get Wazir Khan punished .

Koenraad Elst is no authority on Sikh history.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 24 Jan 2012 21:52

Same can be said about Guru Granth Sahib as well.

Guru Granth Sahib was compiled by Sri Guru Arjan Dev and Guru Gobind singh added the Bani of his father the Ninth Guru to it. So Guru Granth sahib has banis of first five gurus and the ninth Guru. That's it.

The original compiled book has been since with the descendants of the Guru at a city called Kartarpur (close to Jalandhar). The family has refused to give it to the SGPC or Sikhs.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Jan 2012 22:04

Abhi_G wrote:Can somebody translate the Farsi correctly?

Moreover, the "idol' might be Aurangzeb himself. Guru Gobind Singh might be addressing aurang in an indirect (tirjak mantabya) way like a riddle showing the consequences, not uncommon in Indian tradition.

You bet. Here is the verse and the 23 verses after it, which will ring a warning in any reader's head -

This verse is slightly different in my copy from the one sushupti ji posted above, though the meaning is similar:

manam koshteh am kohiyaan e bot-parast
ke ou bot-parastand man bot-shekast

I have also killed those hillbilly idolators
For they were idolators, and I am an idol-breaker

be een gardesh e bi-vafaaee ye zamaan
pas e posht oftad resaanad ziyaan

Look at the turn of this faithless world,
When it sets itself after someone (or something) obsessively, it only ends up doing harm to that objective!

be een qodrat e neek yazdaan e paak
ke az yek bedeh lac resaanad halaak

Look at the power and goodness of the pure Lord,
That with just one He can send one lack to anihilation!

che doshman konad, mehrbaan ast doost
ke bakhshandegi kaar e bakhshandeh oost

What can the enemy do when the Friend is kind?
He is generous, forgiveness is His work!

Clearly, the above context is a warning to Aurangzeb of what will happen to him, just likeit happened with his Hill Raja running dogs. Aurangzeb is no different from the idolatrous hill rajas. GGS ji is saying that God is on his side, but that that God is also innately forgiving. The door of repentance and reformation is always left ajar.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Jan 2012 22:13

SBajwa wrote:Koenraad Elst is no authority on Sikh history.

I find him an interesting character. Koenraad Elst is usually pushing a line of total rejectionism and rage amongst Hindu revivalists. On the other hand, his country (Netherlands) is engaged in a program of systematic EJ conversion activity in India (along with the US and Australia), even though church attendance among the Dutch is incredibly low. I've wondered that it is interesting that both sides of this fractious intervention in India's discourse are based in the same country...

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 24 Jan 2012 22:23

Carl, I can identify only two Farsi words in those two lines, parast - defeat and shikast - to stop. Where is the "breaking of idol" word? The argument might be due to a mysterious slip in the translation - has happened many a times when our basic interests were subverted.

Regarding the idol being aurang, it came as a tube light moment. There was one episode in the serial Chanakya where Alexander (another invader) was warned through a riddle by a Rishi. So it is not uncommon among Rishis and Munis to talk in riddles.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Jan 2012 22:29

Abhi_G wrote:Carl, I can identify only two Farsi words in those two lines, parast - defeat and shikast - to stop. Where is the "idol' word?

Abhi_G ji, actually "parastesh" in Farsi means "cherish/worship", not "defeat". Idol is "bot", or "but" in subcontinental accent. Arabs got it from "Buddha". So "bot-parast" means "idol-worship". Also, "shekastan" in Farsi means to "break" or "defeat". So "shekan" or "shekast" means "breaker" or "defeater".

Your tubelight moment was very appropriate. But the thing is, when reading the verses after the one Sushupti misued, it is clear as daylight what th Guru is referring to. The obsessive mind and its favourite dogmas, likes and dislikes, is the real idol. I don't know why Sushupti ji could not look 2 verses ahead of the one he chose to copy here. Moreover, he uses the commentary of a highly controversial personl like Mr. Koenraad Elst, whose position I find rather interesting as I indicated above.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 24 Jan 2012 22:46

SBajwa wrote:
Same can be said about Guru Granth Sahib as well.
Guru Granth Sahib was compiled by Sri Guru Arjan Dev and Guru Gobind singh added the Bani of his father the Ninth Guru to it. So Guru Granth sahib has banis of first five gurus and the ninth Guru. That's it.

The original compiled book has been since with the descendants of the Guru at a city called Kartarpur (close to Jalandhar). The family has refused to give it to the SGPC or Sikhs.

Are you sure about Guru Arjan Dev writing each and every letter of Adi Granth? and even if he did how can you be sure that it has remained intact over the centuries?. Dasam Granth might have be written by 500 people but don't you think Dasam Guru would have reviewed it before putting his name on it?.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 24 Jan 2012 22:48

Carl wrote:
SBajwa wrote:Koenraad Elst is no authority on Sikh history.
I find him an interesting character. Koenraad Elst is usually pushing a line of total rejectionism and rage amongst Hindu revivalists. On the other hand, his country (Netherlands) is engaged in a program of systematic EJ conversion activity in India (along with the US and Australia), even though church attendance among the Dutch is incredibly low. I've wondered that it is interesting that both sides of this fractious intervention in India's discourse are based in the same country...

why are you resorting to ad-hominem on Elst. More over, he is just restating the position of Ramswarup and Sitaram Goel, most likely Punjabis.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2012 23:18

Sushupti-ji

I have read the Dasham Granth in some detail, being in a language easily accessible to me, and it is quite clear that what ever Khalistani's want to infer from it, does not need to be given any credence what so ever on a forum like BRF.

I am strongly with devesh, SBajwa-ji Surinder and others when they say that this is a anomalous (and probably mischievous reading)

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 25 Jan 2012 00:05

Sushupti wrote:why are you resorting to ad-hominem on Elst. More over, he is just restating the position of Ramswarup and Sitaram Goel, most likely Punjabis.

Its not an "ad hominem". Clearly now - I hope you agree - the slant was mischievous, and a reading of just the next 3 verses is enough to remove doubt. So if Elst or anyone else is going to resort to that kind of mischievous slant against the Gurus for their own ideological purposes, then its normal for those of us who are familiar with the context to go after them and their agenda. Nothing personal. I respect and appreciate some of Elst's good work.