Understanding Sikh History-1

[SBajwa]

Thanks Munna ji!!

Everything about the creator, god, bhagwan, allah, yahweh, pareswar, etc is in Guru Nanak Dev ji's Japuji Sahib.


All the devta's originated from Brahmna, vishnu or Mahesh right?

Vishnu has many avtars... so many avtars that now our people in India even think of Amir Khan and Salman Khan as another avtar of God Vishnu (they have temples devoted to them)., apart from Ramchandra, Krishna and Guru Gobind Singh.

Sikhism in my opinion and as is my understanding takes away from "Blind worship of idols" For Sikhs True worship of Ramchandara of Ramayana should be proactive and take action against Ravana., instead of just praying at a temple. This simple praying at the temple is what Guru Gobind singh and Guru Nanak Dev do not like! for them a Hero does not need any worship in a temple but only wants others to follow him to continue his/her revolution.

"Blind worship of Idols" also includes the daily arti, ardaas, etc of Guru Granth Sahib. The current daily practice at Golden Temple is against the basic ethos of Guru Gobind singh and Guru Nanak. Guru Nanak himself worked hard daily at fields (and guru gobind singh with his books and arms training)., while only preached 1-2 hours at max daily., as oppose to current day Jathedars., who make money by preaching.

The best worship of your guru is to follow and not just, wake it up, say prayer to it, etc.

Today we have people who have taken Pahul (Amrit) and have kept a 2" kirpaan for show. Will that kirpan be useful if they need it? NO!! they are making a mockery of Guru's Amrit.

Instead of being a physically fit they grow fat eating Karah Prasad.
Instead of being a brahm gyani by trying to learn/follow gurbani they are now ritualistic just what Guru Nanak started against from begining.

Sorry for any offenses.

[Abhi_G]

Keshav, the concept of angels does not exist in the Hindu/Indic framework as far as I know.

Indic faiths are not exclusive and they do not exclude the existence of various devatas. So Guruji's statement does not contradict that cultural aspect of Indians. Also, there are several devatas in Puranas like Indra who are not exactly at the highest level. Vishnu/Krishna, Shiva and Devi occupy the highest level depending on what one wants of believe. Indra seeks their help whenever in danger. But nonetheless Indra does have a role to play.

Coming to the usage of the word Parabrahman, depending on what ones "Ishta Devata" is, one identifies Parabrahman with him or her. It may be Vishnu or Shiva or Devi. The Advaita school believes that the individual soul/atman is the Parabrahman, whereas the Dvaita school believes that the jeevatman is part of Parabrahman. Do not want to post offtopic but just wanted to reply in context to the usage of the word 'angel' and Parabrahman.

[munna]

Now here I feel that people are going on the wrong track.
First of all we need to understand that a devata is not equal to god in any which way. Devata is a sub god entity in Hindu pantheon. In fact Devata merely means an abode of a particular virtue. We Hindus and other Indic people often confuse the polymorphism (one god many forms) to polytheism (several gods). Just because Gora scholars were unable to find a suitable translation for the word Devatas and chose to call it as synonym of God does not means that we confuse ourselves and fall for this fractal recursivity.
We have crores of Devi Devatas (i.e embodiments of virtues) and not crores of Gods as many illiterate social scientists try to teach us. The message of Guruji was the same that is to cut to chase and stop believing what others told us about our religion and finding the truth within.

[Vikas]

Here is one observation of mine which others can correct. If you go through Bani (sayings) of Guru Nanak dev and then compare with what Guru Govind Singh wrote, there is a marked shift from singing hymns to single non-dual unnamed God to praise of earlier dharmic Gods.
Guru Nanak ji says," Lali mere laal ki , jit dekhun tith laal" and "Awwal Allah nur-uppaya,kudrat de sab bande" to what 10th Guru says ,"De bar eihi mohe Shiva" and "Chandi di war".
Were the sayings of Guru Nanak ji more keeping with times of Bhakti-waad and the fact he was not starting a new panth.
Its just a conjunction as I have limited knowledge of what Ist guru and 10th guru wrote.

2nd observation: Pictures of Guru Nanak dev and Guru Govind singh ji are prominent in all homes which adorn pictures of Sikh gurus but not the other 8 gurus.
Any specific reason ?

[Vikas]

Is it really true that Guruji believed he was in the lineage of Lava and Kush (through Guru Nanak)?

Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes the following:

The victors of Lahore, the Luv-descendents, were now called Sodi (after someone called Sodi Rai in their family). They became the ancestors of Guru Gobind Singh (who's last name, if used it, would be Sodi).

Surinder, Wasn't Guru Govind singh's last name before Khalsa panth Rai. I never read anywhere 10th Guru's name being mentioned as Guru Govind singh Sodi.
How come there are no more Rai's among followers of Sikh Faith or for that matter Punjabi's.

[sanjaykumar]

Rai is certainly used in Panjab (Hindu at any rate).

[Vikas]

Rai is certainly used in Panjab (Hindu at any rate).

Got it. Thanx! Lala Lajpat Rai.

[gandharva]

Guru Nanak ji says," Lali mere laal ki , jit dekhun tith laal" and "Awwal Allah nur-uppaya,kudrat de sab bande" to what 10th Guru says ,"De bar eihi mohe Shiva" and "Chandi di war".

"Awwal Allah" was written by Kabir and it is pure Advaita. It is against the exclusive preachings of the monotheistic cults. Guru Nanak was more in the mold of Bhagwan Sri Raman Maharshi.

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
अवलि अलह नूरु उपाइआ कुदरति के सभ बंदे ॥
Aval alah nūr upā▫i▫ā kuḏraṯ ke sabẖ banḏe.
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

ਏਕ ਨੂਰ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਉਨ ਭਲੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੧॥
एक नूर ते सभु जगु उपजिआ कउन भले को मंदे ॥१॥
Ėk nūr ṯe sabẖ jag upji▫ā ka▫un bẖale ko manḏe. ||1||
From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥
लोगा भरमि न भूलहु भाई ॥
Logā bẖaram na bẖūlahu bẖā▫ī.
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
खालिकु खलक खलक महि खालिकु पूरि रहिओ स्रब ठांई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Kẖālik kẖalak kẖalak mėh kẖālik pūr rahi▫o sarab ṯẖāʼn▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause|| {This knocks down the Abrahamic monotheism. Abrahamic gos is extra cosmic and beyond creation. This is why Murti Puja is worst kind of sin, punishable by death. This should pretty much remove the doubt about whether nirgun saints like Kabir preached Vedanta or All religion are same }

ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸਾਜਨਹਾਰੈ ॥
माटी एक अनेक भांति करि साजी साजनहारै ॥
Mātī ek anek bẖāʼnṯ kar sājī sājanhārai.
The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.

ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਕੁੰਭਾਰੈ ॥੨॥
ना कछु पोच माटी के भांडे ना कछु पोच कु्मभारै ॥२॥
Nā kacẖẖ pocẖ mātī ke bẖāʼnde nā kacẖẖ pocẖ kumbẖārai. ||2||
There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
सभ महि सचा एको सोई तिस का कीआ सभु कछु होई ॥
Sabẖ mėh sacẖā eko so▫ī ṯis kā kī▫ā sabẖ kacẖẖ ho▫ī.
The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਨੈ ਸੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਬੰਦਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥
हुकमु पछानै सु एको जानै बंदा कहीऐ सोई ॥३॥
Hukam pacẖẖānai so eko jānai banḏā kahī▫ai so▫ī. ||3||
Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||

ਅਲਹੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਗੁੜੁ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥
अलहु अलखु न जाई लखिआ गुरि गुड़ु दीना मीठा ॥
Alhu alakẖ na jā▫ī lakẖi▫ā gur guṛ ḏīnā mīṯẖā.
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਸੰਕਾ ਨਾਸੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਡੀਠਾ ॥੪॥੩॥
कहि कबीर मेरी संका नासी सरब निरंजनु डीठा ॥४॥३॥
Kahi Kabīr merī sankā nāsī sarab niranjan dīṯẖā. ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. {Looks like Kabir was lucky to be not noticed by some Moulana while uttering Kufra of this kind}||4||3||

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurban ... =1&p=0&k=0

[surinder]

Surinder, Wasn't Guru Govind singh's last name before Khalsa panth Rai. I never read anywhere 10th Guru's name being mentioned as Guru Govind singh Sodi.
How come there are no more Rai's among followers of Sikh Faith or for that matter Punjabi's.

It is my fault, using inexact terminology. Guru Ji's gotra was Sodi. His name before the sajna of Khalsa was indeed Gobind Rai. Rai is a common name attached to names. It is like a student in your class called Sanjay Kumar. His family name may be Ahuja, and if he really was to use his full name it would be Sanja Kumar Ahuja. Names like Kumar, Lal, Rai, Dev are common apellations (not family names).

As an aside: People often tell people whose last names are Bedi, Sodi, Bhalla, "tussi ta Guru Ji dey ansh wichon ho."

[surinder]

Here is one observation of mine which others can correct. If you go through Bani (sayings) of Guru Nanak dev and then compare with what Guru Govind Singh wrote, there is a marked shift from singing hymns to single non-dual unnamed God to praise of earlier dharmic Gods.

To answe you question fully, firstly we need a a advanced soul, which certainly I am not. Second, it would go too deep in discussions of spirituality theology etc., something we should avoid (so that the general interest in the thread can be maintained). But one small observation: Sikhs do not beleive that there is any difference in essence of any Guru (and for that matter any contributor to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji---there are many Hindu, Muslims bhagats included in he holy book). Secondly, 10th master wanted to make people martial. What better way than to remind of their history and past strengths. Hence we find in the Dasham Granth very detailed, beautiful descriptions of wars waged by our past Prophets & Devtas like Sri Raam, Sri Krishna, Durga, Chandi, Kalika. The desctiptions try to make vivid scenes come to life and describe war in gory terms. This is to rouse the sleeping spirit in the people and make the ferocious unafraid warriors again.

[SBajwa]

Here is the lineage of sikh Gurus

Guru Nanak Dev Bedi (Bedi from Vedas)., People who recite one veda are bedi, who recite two vedas are Dewadi, three are Trivedi and Four are Chaturvedi. Now the last three (dewadi, trivedi and chaturvedi) are brahmins while Bedi are Kshtriyas.

Guru Angad dev ji Trehan - Create Gurmukhi script on the molds of "Lande" language. This new script was named Gurmukhi by him, gurmukhi meaning "From the mouth of the Guru". He wrote down all the sholokas of Guru Nanak Dev ji and compiled into a book that he called "Pothi". His descandats kept the pothi until the times of fifth guru Guru Arjan Dev ji. He belonged to a rich business family and was well educated. He passed on Gur gaddi to his famous disciple., Amardas Bhalla., just like what Guru Nanak Dev ji had done., i.e.

Guru Amardas ji Bhalla - He started the institute of Sangat-Pangat i.e. "Sangat meaning congregation of like minded people like our Sangat here at BR" and "Pangat meaning - discipline or line"

He started the institute of Langar i.e. all castes cook and eat together.

He forbade all kings who visited him (Raja Jai singh of Jaipur) to veil their women folks in his presence. (AGainst Pardah)

He advocated the marriage of the widow and led huge effort to stop the Sati.

He created a system of Manjis i.e. "Cot" where a preacher would sit on a cot and talk to people and then sing Shabad., 52 such manjis were created all over current punjab, kashmir, haryana, himachal and rajasthan. 8 or 9 heads of these manjis were Women.

He also wrote down his sholokas., His book or pothi was kept by his descandants until Fifth Guru Compiled his sholokas into a Book that he called "Adi Granth" and later Guru Gobind Singh (After adding the sholokas of his father the ninth guru) made the same book "Guru Granth".

Guru Ramdas ji Sodhi - He created the city of Ramdaspur which was later named as "Amritsar". He also wrote down his sholokas and his most famous sholokas are "Anand Karaj" i.e. "The marriage hymns" which are sung during the Sikh wedding.

Guru Arjan dev ji Sodhi - He was the youngest son of Guru Ramdas ji and a very good writer. After he was made Guru By his father, as oppose to his elder brother (who later occupied Golden Temple and exiled Guru Arjan Dev ji's descandants to Anandpur, close to Chandigarh) He created Golden Temple, He compiled the Adi Granth, and in the battle of Mughal succession he supported the rival party to Jahangir (By applying Tilak on the forehead), for which he was arrested and brought to Lahore. The Naqshbandis (who were majority around Jahangir after Akbar's death)., wanted him to convert to Islam, he refused and then they suggested a special punishment which was "To Show the Hell as depicted in Quran". Thus in the month of May (very hot in Lahore)

first day - His naked body was hidden in the skin of a freshly skinned cow., without water. He refused to convert.

Second day - He was given various punishments like pinching of the flesh by hot iron., etc. without water. he refused.

Third day - He was made to stand naked in sun all day without water while soldiers periodically threw hot sand on his body.

Fourth day - Same type

Fifth day - He was made to sit on a hot plate (Tawa)

Sixth day - Hot sand was poured on his body while he sat on the hot plate.

Seventh day - Hot sand was poured on his body while he sat on the hot plate.. then at the end of the day when he fainted., Various histororians say following., don't know what is true

1. He walked over to the river Ravi and was washed away by strong currents.
2. Soldiers threw his body into the river Ravi.

anyhow!! his martyrdom was the turning point in Sikh History.


Guru Hargobind ji Sodhi -He created a new building right in front of Golden Temple that he called Akal Takth, He did not wrote any Sholokas., he was a very good wrestler and over 6'5" tall. He created the first Sikh army of 700 soldiers (guerilla warfare, he also met Shivaji's mentor). He only wanted Guns, Swords, Ammunition, horses and military supplies as "Gifts" by his Sikhs. He was jailed at Gwalior by Jahangir. While he was jailed his relatives occupied Golden Temple and banished his descendants like Guru Tegh Bahadur and later Guru Gobind singh.

Guru Harrai ji Sodhi - He moved the sikh struggle to current Himachal. and kept asking Sikhs/Hindus to arm themselves against the tyranny of Mughals

Guru Harkishen ji Sodhi -

Guru Tegh Bahadur ji sodhi

Guru Gobind Singh ji Sodhi

[surinder]

I was watching the animated movie "Luv Kush" with my kids yesterday. The story ends and the narrator (Amrish Puri?) says that Luv & Kush became great rulers: Raam built "Saraswatipur" for Luv, and "Kushpur" Kush. I would have expected to hear the narrator say, "Luv built Lahore, & Kush built Kasur, both of these cities are thriving cities and are in Pakistan today."

I am not sure why that was not said?

I mean I don't expect the authors to necessarily state the Sikh narrative about Luv Kush in that movie, but at least the location and names of cities is regardless of the Sikh narrative.

(Maybe perhaps this discussion needs to happen in the "Distorted History" thread. I will check that thread for possible answers.)

[sampat]

Vienna temple fight injures 11

At least 11 people have been injured during a fight inside a Sikh temple in the Austrian capital Vienna.

Police said five men armed with knives and another with a pistol started a fight in the temple, the BBC's Bethany Bell reports.

The number of injured is expected to rise, a police spokeswoman said.

It is unclear what caused the fight, with reports of a feud between rival families and also of disputes with worshippers at other Sikh temples.

Preacher 'attacked'

All six of the armed men were severely injured in the incident and were taken to hospital where they were arrested, our correspondent says.

One report said the men were extremists who disagreed with the teachings of the preacher.

He was named as Shri Guru Ravidas Sabha by the Austrian Press Agency.

The six armed men apparently attacked him, prompting his supporters to rush to his aid.

Other people may have been less seriously hurt but ran from the building before emergency services arrived, authorities said.

The temple is situated in Vienna-Rudolfsheim, in the 15th district of the capital.

Who is Shri Gruru Ravidas Sabha? Is he the follower of Shri Guru Ravidass of the Bhakti Movement of the fifteenth century?

Anyone, have any more info on the two sects fighting?

[IndraD]

I don't know why there is clash between dera sachha sauda and rest in Punjab, every time some thing like this crops up..!

JALANDHAR: Followers of Dera Sachkhand and various Dalit bodies on Sunday blocked traffic on the national highway here, damaged three buses and torched a vehicle soon after news regarding firing on Sant Niranjan Dass, the Dera head, in Vienna, Austria spread.
Activists of various Dalit bodies, including Ambedkar Sena and BSP, blocked vehicular traffic in Phagwara for nearly an hour on National Highway No 1 on the over-bridge near Sugar Mill crossing to protest the Vienna incident, police said.
Some of the protesters pelted stones at vehicles, damaging three buses, they said, adding no passenger was injured in the incident.
the fight erupted following a dispute over the sermon given by a priest from Shri Guru Ravidas Sabha.
At least six men, one wielding a gun and the others knives, attacked the preacher and others.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Tens ... 572832.cms

[Gerard]

Protest in Jalandhar over Vienna gurdwara clash

Curfew was clamped in Jalandhar city on Sunday night and Army alerted as tension gripped Doaba region after violence flared up and protesters resorted to arson within hours of attack on the head of Dera Sachkhand Ballan in a temple shootout in the Austrian capital of Vienna, where about 30 people were wounded when rival Sikh factions clashed inside the premises.

[Raju]

It seems Dera Sachkhand is a Ravidasia gurudwara. Sant Ravidas is sort of a heretic within the sikh faith and they encourage practices like keeping idols in gurudwara which is not tolerated by mainstream sikhs and there is constant friction between them.

Dera Sacha Sauda is a different congregation. But mainstream sikhs are against them as well for diluting the original faith.

[munna]

^^Dera Sacha Sauda and Dera Sachkhand are Dalit dominated deras having following amongst Hindus and Sikhs alike. The former is stron in Malwa while the latter in Doaba side. Both Deras come into clash with Jatt Sikhs over the political entitlements and the repressive structure of rural society. The friction has existed for years its only now that Dalits are becoming more outspoken.

[IndraD]

Is there any way of solving this issue (clash between Dera & others), this is becoming daily problem in Punjab. This has potential of snowballing into major clash.

[derkonig]

Look at the deliberate psyops behind calling it a 'temple'.

[Raju]

I thought Ravidasias were more business class rather than dalit peasantry, isn't the management of ranbaxy ravidasia ?

[Tilak]

Look at the deliberate psyops behind calling it a 'temple'.

No need to be so sensitive. IMHO. In media parlance its used for anything other than Church and Mosque. BTW.. Buddhists and Jews are in it too..

[munna]

Ravidasis are the most progressive Dalit community of Punjab and are much more accomplished than the Valmikis. This attack seems to be some kind of a deliberate move to reignite the tensions in Punjab by reactivating the fault line established amongst the Jatts and the Dalits during the Sacha Sauda fiasco.
I wonder why the attackers chose Vienna? How they got there? This Dera had also backed INC candidates, especially in Jalandhar and one of its leader is killed just 8 days after the elections? The entire chain of events and that too emanating from a non entity European nation makes the whole affair really suspicious.

[rsingh]

Where ever there is Gurudwara in Europe..........there is a Parbhandhak Committee...........and there are tensions. It has nothing to do with dalit or not dalit. There is lot of cash involved. This is what happened in Brussulabed many times. There was firing and people were injured and Gurughar was closed for some time. Do not know about how things are in Punjab but here in Europe guys from Punjab are heavy drinkers and hot tempered. All most all of modern songs are glorifying drinking or arms.

[Raju]

It seems like one of their 'sants' were killed in the Austrian attack and thus the dalit ravidasia are shown on rampage across Punjab towns and areas where they are in majority.

[derkonig]

Look at the deliberate psyops behind calling it a 'temple'.

No need to be so sensitive. IMHO. In media parlance its used for anything other than Church and Mosque. BTW.. Buddhists and Jews are in it too..

Buddhists & Jews call their place of worhsip 'temple' so that is fine, but Sikhs worship at a gurudrawa & not a temple.
IIRC MSM went on an 'temple' overdrive when the texan child abuse & polygamy cult news broke out last year. No mention of 'church' in those stories, only 'temples'. Someone is desperate to link 'temples' to violence & deviant activity.

[Sanjay M]

Still, for these nuts to kill somebody - someone had better be charged for this.

[Singha]

BBC
Punjab riots after Vienna killing

Riots have broken out in almost all towns and cities in the Indian state of Punjab after a Sikh guru was killed by a rival group in a temple in Austria. Thousands of angry protesters have taken to streets, damaging public property and setting trains on fire. At least four people were injured when police opened fire at protesters who attacked a police station in Jalandhar. The army has marched through the streets of Jalandhar city and a curfew is in place in four major towns. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has appealed for calm.

Both the preachers were from a low-caste Sikh sect which has a large following in parts of Punjab and had travelled to Vienna to conduct a special service. The BBC's Sanjoy Majumder, in Delhi, says several high caste Sikh groups had apparently opposed his presence and threatened violence.

[sanjaychoudhry]

Both the preachers were from a low-caste Sikh sect which has a large following in parts of Punjab.

Notice the psyops: the goras will not let any Indian go without pointing out his caste. You may try as hard as you want to erase caste identities, the goras wil not allow you to forget your caste. (This is the continuation of the same policy of British Raj of hardening caste identities to keep the Indian society divided into groups which don't inter-mix.) And it is strange of these BBC goras to now begin pointing out castes of Sikh preachers! The entire Sikhism is based on erasing caste identities. Do we go about labelling every gora as Catholic, Protestant, Seventh Day Adventist, etc?

[asprinzl]

Derkonig,
You have it completely off target. The Texan polygamous cult was an ofshoot of the Mormon religion. It was founded by Mormon renegades who also have an equally crazy cult in Arizona that is now under mocroscopic watch of the mainstream Mormonism. Mormons call their house of worship "temple".

FYI, temple is what all house of worships were called in the English language ie the temples of Zeus (Greek God) , Jupiter (Roman God), Yahweh (Jewish God), Rah (Egyptian God) etc etc etc. When the Brits came to India....Indian house of worship too was included in this "temple" group. Nothing psyops here.

Would you rather that it was called Sikh mosque? Give the folks some credit that they didn't call it a mosque when in actuality some of the gurdawaras look almost like mosques.
Avram

[mmasand]

if it weren't for this incident in vienna...i wouldnt even know sects existed in sikhism....courtesy Western Media and their propoganda...the other day BBC was portraying the so called 'rat-eaters' on the lowest rung of the caste system...dont think their psyops are really working as our local media goes one step ahead of them anyway!

[Rony]

Why do the overseas sikhs behave like pakis ? I happen to visit Vancouver sometime back and the sikhs there are exact copies of the British Paki islamists.Most are useless khalistani filth who are good for nothing but spewing hatred towards India.If the canadians as per a recent survey bracket sikhism with islam as religions most prone to voilence, it is entirely because of these khalistani filth.

[asprinzl]

As far as my experience is concerned.....many of these Khalistani nonsense comes from whites who converted into Sikhism. I would call it the fevor of the converts. I would say that Indian Punjab must stand as the beacon of leadership and unity of the Sikh community worldwide. Punjab needs to play that role effectively. Particularly the city of Amritsar. When there are fissions and demarcation lines in Punjab itself....then there will be multiple centers of gravity. Multiple centers of gravity does not unity make but disunity. Sikhs' form the first line of mother India's defense. We need to help them find unity. Disunity amongst Sikhs will not do mother India much good in the long run.
Avram

[aditya]

Berlin Neo-Nazis protest Hindu temple

Well, since Hindus are supposed to be Nazis as per pseudo-secular "intellectuals" and Communists, better to have neo-Nazis protest Hindu temple rather than support Hindu temple.

[vera_k]

PP claims that Punjab Congress is fuelling the rioting in Punjab so as to create conditions for dismissing the state government.

Link

[shaardula]

Army called out in Jalandhar

The Army was called out in Jalandhar on Monday to assist the administration in checking rioting that was sparked by a group clash in a gurdwara in Vienna that led to the death of a preacher. Besides Jalandhar, curfew was imposed in Ludhiana, Hoshiarpur and Phagwara as protests were reported from different parts of Punjab.

At least one person was killed and four persons were injured when Army personnel opened fire to disperse a mob that attempted to burn down a police station near Lambra, 30 km from Jalandhar. One person was seriously injured when the police opened fire at a mob that attacked the Jalandhar Cantonment railway station and torched a train. Jalandhar zone Inspector General Sanjiv Kalra and his gunmen were injured when a mob attempted to ransack the Maqsudan police station. Vehicles parked on the premises of the police station were burnt.

Why is there so much anger? What is the story of this Dera Saccha Sauda? Why does it windup the other sikhs? They have a website and all.

[Tilak]

As far as my experience is concerned.....many of these Khalistani nonsense comes from whites who converted into Sikhism. I would call it the fevor of the converts. I would say that Indian Punjab must stand as the beacon of leadership and unity of the Sikh community worldwide. Punjab needs to play that role effectively. Particularly the city of Amritsar. When there are fissions and demarcation lines in Punjab itself....then there will be multiple centers of gravity. Multiple centers of gravity does not unity make but disunity. Sikhs' form the first line of mother India's defense. We need to help them find unity. Disunity amongst Sikhs will not do mother India much good in the long run.
Avram

What you said may be true, but this particular incident in Austria happened, according to Sikh Spokesman on Radio was "One of the Dera Sacha Sauda(DSS) visited the Gurudwara, which enraged the people, and was trying to proselytize. And this Gurudwara doen't recognize the DSS, and consider them distorting the Sikh religion. Although "the Saint" the DSS reveres, is recognized by mainstream Sikhs and his place rightfully accorded by the way of including 100 verses/poems in the original Guru Granth, he is not recognized as as one of the original 10 Sikh Gurus. And DSS is actively pushing/playing up for his importance.".

--Any mistakes while quoting the above are mine.. Will be glad to correct myself.--

PS: There have been provocations in the past, from DSS earlier as well with Baba Gurmeet Ram Raheem(DSS) dressing up as Guru Gobind Singh, and performing some religious ceremonies. Coupled with it there seems to be some sort of Social re-engineering being attempted by Congress (passively supported by DSS) insearch of an alternative to Shiromani Akali Dal combine in Punjab, and they are playing the "Dalit" Sikh vs. the "Upper Caste" Sikh to get it their way. And BSP has joined the bandwagon as well. Congress it seems hasn't realised its past blunders, with regard to floating Bhindranwale which came to bite India.

[Tilak]

X-Posted : India-EU thread

This particular incident in Austria happened, according to Sikh Spokesman on Radio was ~ "One of the Dera Sacha Sauda(DSS) visited the Gurudwara, which enraged the people, and was trying to "proselytize". And this Gurudwara doen't recognize the DSS, and consider them distorting the Sikh religion. Although "the Saint" the DSS reveres, is recognized by mainstream Sikhs and his place rightfully accorded by the way of including 100 verses/poems in the original Guru Granth, he is not recognized as as one of the original 10 Sikh Gurus. And DSS is actively pushing/playing up for his importance.".

--Any mistakes while quoting the above are mine.. Will be glad to correct myself.--

PS: There have been provocations in the past, from DSS earlier as well with Baba Gurmeet Ram Raheem(DSS) dressing up as Guru Gobind Singh, and performing some religious ceremonies. Coupled with it there seems to be some sort of Social re-engineering being attempted by Congress (passively supported by DSS) insearch of an alternative to Shiromani Akali Dal combine in Punjab, and they are playing the "Dalit" Sikh vs. the "Upper Caste" Sikh to get it their way. And BSP has joined the bandwagon as well. Congress it seems hasn't realised its past blunders, with regard to floating Bhindranwale which came to bite India.

[Tilak]

Why do the overseas sikhs behave like pakis ?

Ronyji isnt that too broad a brush?.

[ramana]

We have to get our Deras right. Current farcas is due to Dera Sacha Akhand and not Dera Sacha Sauda.

Dera Sach Akhand, a Jalandhar-based sect that follows the teachings of guru Ravidass (the 14th century founder of the Ravidassia sect)

I think its a TSP sponsored outrage as the attack was by pro-Khalistanis.

[AjayKK]

If what you speak of is true ( and i have no reason to doubt it ), then the next wave of attacks will emnate from UK.