Strategic leadership for the future of India

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Nov 2009 14:59

Baba Ramdev is well-intentioned but seems to have the same afflication that so many Indian leaders have had for the past 1000 years - an inadequate understanding of the history and fundamental characteristics of Islam. Sometimes I think the ignorance is wilful, some kind of psychological escapism.

But still, at least he appears to be free of any Nehruvian or leftist mental straitjackets. So one wishes him well.

His expertise is in Yoga, and he's definitely doing very impressive work in that department.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Nov 2009 18:18

Baba Ramdev's intentions are not up for scrutiny. But his presence at the Jamia Ulema i Hind's obvious attempt at political Islam's assertion shows lack of political sense. This is a show run by one of the shrewdest manipulators that work on behalf of long term Islamist agenda, on the subcontinent. A few shows of yoga or pious and intense speeches of devotion from a senior cabinet minister who only sees communalism and hatred when an Islamic icon is destroyed, does not reduce Islamist theologian's hold on its flock. That hold is based on careful separation and ideological indoctrination from childhood - in an all pervading social atmosphere of theological intervention and control at each and every aspect of Muslim life.

But on the other hand such presence and endorsement from the non-Muslim side only helps to strengthen the real message of the Ulema. Notice that they have not diluted theor own agenda of Islamism. Slowly and steadily they have brought up issues core to the Islamic's heart. Their need to suppress cultural ideological icons of the non-Muslim, their obsessive need to control women, their obsessive need to curtail and control channels of cultural dissemination - all these are being pushed through.

Why are not the Ulema being challenged to make their position clear on Sharia? Do they or do they not support establishment of Sharia in India ? Do they commit Sharia not to be imposed on non-Muslims even if Muslims become majority in India? Do they declare slavery un-Islamic? Or enslaving and sexually using non-Muslim women taken prisoners in a conflict and automatically considering their marriage (if married at the time) annulled - as unIslamic? Do they declare military jihad undertaken to convert, loot, or rape as un-Islamic? Is the injunction on all Muslims to establish Islam as the supreme rashtryia framework where political, military and civilian authority is concentrated in a theological body - is unIslamic? In typical Islamic states Islamic law is imposed also on non-Muslims. These are core issues never declared un-Islamic by any theologian of Islam however "liberal" or "progressive" they pretend to be. What is at most said is that "this is a misinterpretatuon". When pressed as to whay and what is it a misinterpretation of the issue is avoided. Never ever are they declared unIslamic. It is usually countered with an evasive answer - that Islam and sharia should be established by "persuasion" and not through "violence".

It is typically "should" - violence is never declared as "unIslamic". It is openly acknowledged that Islam reserves the right to "violence" when Islam is attacked. What will be interpreted as an "attack" is however never completely specified - so that even the refusal to submit to some Islamic whim can be deemed as an "attack" on Islam. When fatwas are allowed to be aired without criticism, what are PC or Ramdev doing there if they also do not challenge and raise such issues for clarification?

PC could declare the destruction of a mosque in India as extreme of prejudice, but did not dare to declare all destructions of cultural icons - Muslim or non-Muslim anywhere in the world as extremes of prejudice. Could have mentioned Bamian at the least - that would not be a site of the "hated" "Hindu"! This is the courage with which the current regime will face jihad - completely confused at the least, as to the real inseparability of jihad and Islam and Ulema and Sharia, and therefore never able to tackle the real source of jihad - the constant Ulemaic propaganda to get core Islamic attitudes established and tolerated in psychological preparation of the ground for the ultimate push.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 04 Nov 2009 18:27

^^
More distressing is the deadly silence of the so called defenders of Hindu , the so called opposition party. I bet they might have given a few statements but nothing worthwhile, no sangh parivar was even invited to the discussion by cnn ibn. They have no relevance at the moment . They have not even raised half of the questions raised by you. This is the most scary part. Today in India there is no opposition to the sickular group. They can get away with anything.
The Kangress has never had it so good.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Nov 2009 19:02

brihaspati wrote: But on the other hand such presence and endorsement from the non-Muslim side only helps to strengthen the real message of the Ulema. Notice that they have not diluted theor own agenda of Islamism. Slowly and steadily they have brought up issues core to the Islamic's heart. Their need to suppress cultural ideological icons of the non-Muslim, their obsessive need to control women, their obsessive need to curtail and control channels of cultural dissemination - all these are being pushed through.

Baba Ramdev's presence is at least an improvement from the past, wherein all pre-Islamic civilization was declared to be Jahiliyya.

IMHO, Islamic theologians are grappling with the question of how to stay relevant in the modern era. The success of Indic thought in the global marketplace of ideas has put them in a quandary, and there appears to be some reassessment of what kind of relationship they should have with non-Islamic ideas.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Nov 2009 19:34

The main point to note is that similar token allowances were also given in the early days of Islam, wherever and whenever, the forces of Islam were felt to be weak. There are some classic cases of "allowances" of pre-Islamic forms temporarily - which has been later on clariified as a necessary tactic of "struggle" - deception.

The fact that some of us are takeing pleasure in the apparent compromise being made by the Ulema is proof enough that decption works. Such measures from the Ulema show a high degree of political maturity that allows visually captivating tokens for propaganda machinery on both sides to cease upon and highlight. It is designed to lull the suspicion and alertness of non-Muslim populations so that more serious issues are allowed to pass through without much scrutiny.

It would have been a positive token, if the Baba Ramdev demonstration was being organized or attended to, voluntarily by Muslims at the lowest level of Islamic structuring and hierarchy - as individuals or local groups. When such a demonstration happens only at the behest of the Ulema - the Ulemaic authority to decide what is "best" for the IM is being reinforced.

My point is quite clear and consistent from one year before - it is the Islamic theologian who is the problem. It is they and their propaganda on behalf of Islam that stands between our brothers and sisters who happen to have been born into Muslim families in India, and us. The Ulema and claims of Islamic theology as a framework to be imposed without criticism and challenge - that has to go. Indians are here to stay - not the preposterous and alien claims of unchallenged obedience to an anachronistic ideology that wants to reproduce the deserts of 7th century Arabian society of ghazwas on Indian soil.

If we have to be secular - let us be strictly secular. Every leadership of India then should seek to eliminate any entity that seeks to stand between the rashtra and its nagarik as a thrird party authority regulating the interaction. If not, and secularism is selectively invoked to allow certain faith ideology propaganda to grow and fulfill their theological agenda - while suppressing others - then it is a religious state. A state where state power is used to promote certian religions at the cost of others. If we really have to be a religious state any way, let the form of that religion be decided by the majority in India and not a religious minority - however shrill and deafening their voice may appear to be.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Nov 2009 20:08

A large majority of the Muslim would like to lead a normal civil life. It is their clergy (as is the case with the clergy of all religions) who posing as spiritual guides are actually running scared of losing their pristine position amongst the faithful and their political clout and hence fan the fires of separatism! It is an unfortunate commentary that our political spectrum embraces these charlatans and encourages them so that they too can hang onto their political power! An unholy nexus with pretensions to holiness and purity!!

The fact that there was the Babri Mazjid and Modi keeping on getting elected in spite of all the media, political and legal blitz, even after his alleged atrocities, has made many realise that there is a churn in civil society which is not amenable to separatism and special status. Even the so called secular parties realised this and so I believe their tallest leaders went to Somnath to offer prayers and the like IIRC.

Baba Ramdev had a following because of his yoga skills. It spiralled to new heights when he assumed the high status of a TV guru. He then veered off to adding a touch of Hindu angle to his yogic pursuit so much so Brinda Karat and then Congress stalwart Rawat taking him on!
Baba

Apparently, he has tasted blood and so he want to be the second Dhirendra Brahmachari.

He has even said the one need not use ‘Om’ and instead use the name of his own God when practising yoga. This, to me, appears an indication that smacks of crass commercialism. I could be wrong. The power, peace and resonance of saying the word ‘Om’ to synchronise with the breathing are an experience that cannot be replaced by any other word, no matter how holy it is in any religion.

Therefore, Ramdev who at times is the beacon of Hindu philosophy landing up at Deoband to preach peace and the Muslim contribution to the Independence movement makes me wonder what is going on – a person accused by the Congress playing toey toey with the BJP is attempting to beard the lion in its den!! Indeed, if he can, all kudos to him!

I wonder if he can or even our cautious cautious Mr Chidambaram who went in as Androcles into the Circus (that is what the arena was called).

Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind and Darul Uloom Deoband as is Tablighi Jamaat are all the same. SIMI was a part of the Jamiat Ulema. This very Jamiat had given the fatwa that terrorism is an enemy to ‘unjust violence’, and yet at the same time, fathered SIMI and the madrassas in Pakistan that have churned out terrorist worldwide. What is ‘unjust violence’? Violence against terrorists? The Deobandis are great manipulators and they are practising what is legalised in their scriptures – Taqiyya and kitman! The Deobandis are a breed apart from other Muslims.

Or is Ramdev and Chidambram doing some secular Taqiyya and kitman on them?

Confused!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 04 Nov 2009 20:44

RayC-ji,

Kindly do not bring all the religions every time you have to make a critical comment on a specific religion. Hindu/Buddhist/Jain gurus do not resort to scare-mongering or “fan the fires of separatism” similar to Islamic Ulema and Christian missionaries to keep their hold on the believers.

In Yoga, people DO USE the names of their Ishta Devata, instead of AUM. Baba Ramdev is using that concept in this scenario.

The whole brouhaha of Brinda Karat and Congress is the result of their own pseudo-secular agendas and is aimed at suppressing Baba Ramdev’s popularity. They wouldn’t have created that drama if Baba Ramdev were to support INC or LEFT. So attributing this issue to Baba Ramdev is illogical.

It could be that everyone is playing the same game for different goals and different time scales. In India a politician can see only 5 yrs in to the future, Ulema 10-50 yrs (Remember Quaid-i-Azam?), where an Indic has to think time infinite.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 04 Nov 2009 20:50

RamaY wrote:It could be that everyone is playing the same game for different goals and different time scales. In India a politician can see only 5 yrs in to the future, Ulema 10-50 yrs (Remember Quaid-i-Azam?), where an Indic has to think time infinite.

Nice sentence.. But, Indic needs to redefine this part.. Because in long run, we are all dead.. This is exactly what I implied when I said "Complete knowledge favours inaction. Half-knowledge is sometimes essential to get things done. A thin veil of ignorance is Maya's way of maintaining the potential difference and getting things done" in Link-Language thread.

Time demands that we forget our complete knowledge for time-being and take some decisions to act on short-term goals (around 20-25 years in future). We need maya's interference in positive way. Action is important now, even if it is arising out of Agnaana. Although inaction is also an action, this window is fast closing. After this window closes, Indic cannot afford inaction.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 04 Nov 2009 21:04

Chiron-ji,

Completely agree. IMO the organization of Indic thought has many layers (or castes

).

Political leaders: IMO SS, BJP and other political parties and leaders fall into this category. They behave the same way the other political classes behave and work in similar timelines.

Leadership class: If I understand correctly, this is the subject of this thread. This class has to be the bridge between the political and philosophical leaders. This class of leaders have to think and establish the structures that suit the timelines of 10-100 yrs to move Bharat from one plane of world-view to another.

Philosophical leaders: The objective of this class of leaders is to educate the masses on “Hindu View of Life” (Recently read a book with the same title by Dr. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan). Once the masses are re-educated on this, they will return back to their Indic ethos while progressing intellectually, economically, and spiritually.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 04 Nov 2009 21:31

Bhaarat requires a Raajarshi.. A Philosopher King... at the best. At the worst, Bhaarat prefers a Raja who let Rishis do their work without interfering out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness as long as they are abiding the law of land...

At least 2-3 leaders must emerge in succession. Preferably someone like Samudragupta-Vikramaditya-Kumargupta.. OR Chandragupta-Bindusara-Ashok.. OR Shivaji-Bajirao 1-Madhavrao 1... OR Krishnadeva raya-Achyutadeva raya-Sadashiv raya-Aliya Rama raya...

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 Nov 2009 21:53

RamaY wrote:RayC-ji,

Kindly do not bring all the religions every time you have to make a critical comment on a specific religion. Hindu/Buddhist/Jain gurus do not resort to scare-mongering or “fan the fires of separatism” similar to Islamic Ulema and Christian missionaries to keep their hold on the believers.

In Yoga, people DO USE the names of their Ishta Devata, instead of AUM. Baba Ramdev is using that concept in this scenario.

The whole brouhaha of Brinda Karat and Congress is the result of their own pseudo-secular agendas and is aimed at suppressing Baba Ramdev’s popularity. They wouldn’t have created that drama if Baba Ramdev were to support INC or LEFT. So attributing this issue to Baba Ramdev is illogical.

It could be that everyone is playing the same game for different goals and different time scales. In India a politician can see only 5 yrs in to the future, Ulema 10-50 yrs (Remember Quaid-i-Azam?), where an Indic has to think time infinite.

I agree with this

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 04 Nov 2009 22:05

Vande Mataram Controversy Evokes Mixed Reactions

Some reactions:

"This is a very sensitive issue. It is our national song. And there are also religious sentiments attached. Keeping in mind all these facts, the issue should not be made controversial."

Shakeel Ahmad, Congress party spokesperson

"We should find a middle path. Muslims are not against Vande Mataram but have religious compulsions against singing it."

Amar Singh, SP General Secretary

"If you don't want to salute your motherland, then who do you salute? What is the shame in saluting Bharatmata? Those who do not want to salute Bharatmata should go to Pakistan or Bangladesh. There is no place for such traitors in India. If anti-national fatwas are issued in the presence of the Union home minister then there is no future for this country. It looks like the Centre has a policy of appeasement of Muslims for votes."

Uddhav Thackeray, Shiv Sena Executive President

"This (the resolution) has once again exposed the anti-national character of the Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind. Union Home Minister Chidambaram must tender a public apology for having let down the nation and particularly the Hindus. Instead of intervening and objecting, the Home Minister simply sat there and kept exchanging pleasantries."

Praveen Togadia, VHP General Secretary

"The resolution passed yesterday at the Deoband seminary gathering directing Muslims in the nature of a fatwa to reject Vande Mataram is violative of the Constitution and hence actionable under IPC."

Subramanian Swamy, Janata Party President

"This (Vande Mataram) is a dead issue. I don't understand what compelled them to raise the issue. Why such things are raised when more and more serious issues are there. Unnecessarily we are creating conflicts. I believe there is no substance in this demand. This is done just to attract media attention."

Yahya Bukhari of Jama Masjid United Forum

"It is a well settled issue, the opinion of Muslims on this is known for a long time, since the time of our independence that Muslims love their country but do not worship it. But I do not understand the timing and reason behind raising this issue. It was not the occasion to raise this issue again."

S Q R Illyasi of All India Muslim Personal Law Board

"Singing or not singing a song can in no terms be called a criteria to define patriotism. There is no contention that the song is un-Islamic. There is no question that Indian Muslims love their motherland, but the national song cannot be forced upon anyone. It is like forcing a majority's will on the minority."

Manzoor Alam of Institute of Objective Studies

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 04 Nov 2009 22:29

shravan wrote:
"Singing or not singing a song can in no terms be called a criteria to define patriotism. There is no contention that the song is un-Islamic. There is no question that Indian Muslims love their motherland, but the national song cannot be forced upon anyone. It is like forcing a majority's will on the minority."

Manzoor Alam of Institute of Objective Studies

I like this last quote

Yes! singing "a song" can in no terms be called a criteria to define patriotism. But, yar, this is "our national song". And what is the criteria to define patriotism? creating riots when someone delodged your khilafite? or when someone tore a book somewhere outside your nation? or calling for riots when someone printed some cartoons on someone?

I do not mind someone who lives 100% true islamic life to not to sing Vandemataram. But how many are there in Independent India?

Isn't democracy all about imposing majority's will on the entire nation, including the minority. Poor MMS and his popular mandate

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Nov 2009 03:43

Loyalty to the nation is a tricky question - for it depends on what the definition and characetrization of "nation" is in the eye of the beholder. Is national loyalty merely to defence of the political boundary, or the regime in power, or to its constitution? For none of the above defines and captures all of what the collective understanding of "nation" is. The key to "nationhood" lies in a distinct and selfsufficient awareness of culture that is also recognized to be continuously maintained through heritage over vast periods of time (and not necessarily over the same geographical space - for most of the time in human history we have been migratory). The cultural aspects can mutate over time and generations, but the key feature is the recignition of derivation of later forms from earlier forms within the same community. This is how the Jews maintained their "nationhood" without having a fixed territory or an independent rashtra.

By this characterization both "Hindus" and the "Abrahamics" are "nations". Problem is - can two "distinct" nations share the same geo-political space without displacing or replacing the other? Either one of them has to submerge its cultural thread into the other - by adopting the other completely, or acknowledging itself to be a later derivation from the other - thereby placing itself within the "nationhood" of the previous one. If neither is feasible - confrontation and an actual replacement, ideological or physical becomes inevitable. Thus the "peaceful" method can only be that Abrahamic on Indian soil clearly and distinctly purges exactly those elements in their culture that prevents identification with the known longer term "nationhood" of pre-Abrahamic India. If those incompatible elements are deemed to be essential core of the Abrahamic faith - then a new branch of the Abrahamic should be reconstructed for India.

If this is unacceptable or not done, loyalties will always be confusing. Because there will be overlaps with interests outside of the majority cultural "nationhood" of India. So what a theologian outside says can have significant impact inside - if a certain book is ruomoured to have been burnt thousands of miles away, violence can erupt. The greatest danger then comes when the religion is invoked by attackers of India as motivating justification.

The question always comes to - if Jihad or a Crusade is declared againt India, the Abrahamics in India will go to the defence of the "nation". But they will do so by first saying that this is not "true" jihad or "true" crusade, which means they will still not be decrying "jihad" or "crusade" per se. For "jihad" will remain an inseparable and undroppable part of core textual injunction. The possibility therefore will never go away - that some group, somewhere within the Indian Abrahamic will allways find itself ina dilemma. Only when the Indian Abrahamic clearly, openly, and categorically repudiates things like "jihad" or "hudud" or provisions of the sharia deemed unaccpetable by the majority non-Abrahamic of India - as anti-their-version-of-Abrahamic - can this separation of the umbilical to foreign threat become feasible.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Nov 2009 03:57

A crucial issue of leadership esacping us - is leadership in areas now supposedly under "Maoist" control. After initial stance of confidence and assurance, the key figures of rashtra are now giving indications that they think (and want commons to think) that the "Maoist" menace will take a much longer time frame to diffuse. The defence force opinion appears already to be a cautious comparison to ho wlong it took to reduce "separatist insurgency". If we have to go by that example, even 30 years are not good enough (as both hotspots are still active).

Development is being put forward as the key. But then development in modern terms means industrialization (even in agriculture) and consequent provision of input industries. This needs land and water and power. But nothing can be done here, becuase if all the demands on preservation of lands in the traditional framework has to be maintained - most primary inputs of development have to set up in the middle of deserts. Who or how is "development" going to be implemented? If it is just going back to pre-capitalist forms of agriculture and production with traditional land use patterns - how does it break the "Maoist" backbone? Where is the realistic strategy and leadership in all this grave analysis and supposed future directions from the state?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Nov 2009 04:09

A point to note is that Indian leadership as it decides to take action has to build consensus for there are very deep divisions. And consensus wont build till the matter is upto the neck and all factions will get affected. Then the factions unite, as they will hang separately, and reach a collective decision. Its very rarely a bad situation is nipped in the bud and problems fester to become sores.
This is a key understanding to ken the political leadership's modus operandi. PVNR's "delay is also a decision" is from this prespective to gain time and make matters reach upto the neck.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Nov 2009 04:15

That can perhaps manage one or two crises at a time. But look at the sheer array of "crises" all converging at the same time. Maoism, Jihadism, EJ, resurgent separatism, reassertive political Islam, PRC+TSP+USA moves. Do they have the time for the "sphotak" to mature for surgery proper? You gave a great insight though - could be relevant for the historical retreats. Maybe this same slowness of consensus broke up and lost the whole game when crises piled up simultaneously.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 05 Nov 2009 04:26

brihaspati wrote:A crucial issue of leadership esacping us - is leadership in areas now supposedly under "Maoist" control. After initial stance of confidence and assurance, the key figures of rashtra are now giving indications that they think (and want commons to think) that the "Maoist" menace will take a much longer time frame to diffuse. The defence force opinion appears already to be a cautious comparison to ho wlong it took to reduce "separatist insurgency". If we have to go by that example, even 30 years are not good enough (as both hotspots are still active).

Development is being put forward as the key. But then development in modern terms means industrialization (even in agriculture) and consequent provision of input industries. This needs land and water and power. But nothing can be done here, becuase if all the demands on preservation of lands in the traditional framework has to be maintained - most primary inputs of development have to set up in the middle of deserts. Who or how is "development" going to be implemented? If it is just going back to pre-capitalist forms of agriculture and production with traditional land use patterns - how does it break the "Maoist" backbone? Where is the realistic strategy and leadership in all this grave analysis and supposed future directions from the state?

The leadership is not in the hands of Maoists but it is otherway round. I do not believe that any one can run their fifedom without the tacit approval from political leadership. Even if someone can do that it will be shortlived. I may sound political but I will just give you certain coincidences regarding these Maoists and their history of attacks from my perception.

1) In AP Naxalites were very strong and did a lot of attacks during the strong CMs of congress but those CMs who are of independent nature when it comes to dealing with Indira Gandhi.
2) Late Vengal Rao who wanted CM desperately and who is allegedly having deepest links to Naxals was made CM and the Naxals are wiped out. He is the hero and later the naxals are hidden deep inside society without action until NTR
3) Suddenly when NTR became CM out-of-blue Naxalism showed a huge return.It again showed a big revival during CBN rule. It is really quite during the YSR and current INC rule.

The Naxalites or Maosits are alway low in their activites when INC wanted them to be low lying. Currently they are showing highest activities in WB after a long time. Why suddenly they are showing such a spirit? The simple conclusion I get is the left government in WB is for sure on an exit mode.

I do not say that INC has 100% control on all the Maoist fronts but I beleive it has a considerable clout to open and stop the taps on an as-needed basis. Here and there the tap leak even after stopping because you can't control 100%.

We need to analyze PC as home minister a little bit more. He seems to be tangential in many aspect. One thing that is happening at a rapid pace is Indo-Bangla border which was neglected all during NDA regime inspite of great noise and sound fury. He is doing this without much noise. Similarly I beleive he has a different approach for Maoists which he put out initially to press which includes using IAF helecptors etc. However, now the plans are very different from his initial plan.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Nov 2009 04:42

Yes mulitple crises will tend to overwhelm such a system. And maybe that is why they are being stoked.

We have to put ourselves in their shoes and see how the world looks from their viewpoint. Its the ultimate in balanced decision making (BDM). They are constantly trading one risk against another and have to be on the ball continuously. As the risks increase they reach a level where they take action. So whats new to Westerners lately is par for the course for Indics.

If you think about it, its because the economic pie is limited creating major resource constraints and the consequent juggling of multiple crises.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Nov 2009 05:06

Is it really the case?

If the state believes that it is responsible for the well being of all sections of the nation, including the ones that Maoists say they represent, what additional value an armed resistance like Naxalism provides to the state?

Isn’t GOI escaping from its responsibility, when it says that Naxalism cannot be seen as just law and order issue?

A self-respecting nation would denounce and destroy all streaks of exclusivist tendencies be it religion, or caste, or sections.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Nov 2009 07:40

RamaY wrote:RayC-ji,

Kindly do not bring all the religions every time you have to make a critical comment on a specific religion. Hindu/Buddhist/Jain gurus do not resort to scare-mongering or “fan the fires of separatism” similar to Islamic Ulema and Christian missionaries to keep their hold on the believers.

In Yoga, people DO USE the names of their Ishta Devata, instead of AUM. Baba Ramdev is using that concept in this scenario.

The whole brouhaha of Brinda Karat and Congress is the result of their own pseudo-secular agendas and is aimed at suppressing Baba Ramdev’s popularity. They wouldn’t have created that drama if Baba Ramdev were to support INC or LEFT. So attributing this issue to Baba Ramdev is illogical.

It could be that everyone is playing the same game for different goals and different time scales. In India a politician can see only 5 yrs in to the future, Ulema 10-50 yrs (Remember Quaid-i-Azam?), where an Indic has to think time infinite.

If you observe the posts, when Hinduism is brought in, and at times, under the nice label of 'Indic', it is all all fair and good.

Talk even a wee bit good of any other religion, or discuss a Hindu icon and it is like a red rag to the raging bull!

Balance is the watchword!

One must have the courage to face reality with all its infirmities!

Ramdev should confine himself to what he knows best - yoga!

I don't wish to engage in a discussion of yoga or the metaphysical power of Om (or Aum to you), but the interactivity and aggrandisation that Om brings to yogic exercises are known!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Nov 2009 08:00

Arif Mohammed Khan's Translation of Vande Mataram in Urdu:

Tasleemat, maan tasleemat
tu bhari hai meethe pani se
phal phoolon ki shadabi se
dakkin ki thandi hawaon se
faslon ki suhani fizaaon se
tasleemat, maan tasleemat
teri raaten roshan chand se
teri raunaq sabze faam se
teri pyar bhari muskan hai
teri meethi bahut zuban hai
teri banhon mein meri rahat hai
tasleemat, maan tasleemat
tere qadmon mein meri jannat hai

Translator's comment...

"This is an attempt to translate Vande Matram in easy spoken language. I wonder if those who declare the song anti-Islamic may have a look at this rendering in Urdu and point out the line or portion they find objectionable?"

Arif Mohammed Khan

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 05 Nov 2009 08:43

^^^ Not that I have skin in this game, but...

as opposed to what - "hard unspoken language" that Vande Matram is written in?

If BRF had its way it would be Indicstan

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 05 Nov 2009 09:19

Chiron wrote: Nice sentence.. But, Indic needs to redefine this part.. Because in long run, we are all dead.. This is exactly what I implied when I said "Complete knowledge favours inaction. Half-knowledge is sometimes essential to get things done. A thin veil of ignorance is Maya's way of maintaining the potential difference and getting things done" in Link-Language thread.

I in turn want to appreciate the nice sentence you wrote (highlighted in red). Beautiful insight. I used to think when one gets too contemplative or content, one can see futility in actions.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Nov 2009 10:55

Pulikeshi wrote:^^^ Not that I have skin in this game, but...

as opposed to what - "hard unspoken language" that Vande Matram is written in?

If BRF had its way it would be Indicstan

I wonder if it is fair to claim that BRF is Indicstan even if some attempt to turn it so.

Md Arif has been the outspoken on this even before that there is nothing objectionable to Islam in Vande Mataram!

So much so he translated the words in Urdu so that the clergy could not fool the Muslim people.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Nov 2009 10:55

Pulikeshi wrote:^^^ Not that I have skin in this game, but...

as opposed to what - "hard unspoken language" that Vande Matram is written in?

If BRF had its way it would be Indicstan

I wonder if it is fair to claim that BRF is Indicstan even if some attempt to make it so.

Md Arif has been the outspoken on this even before that there is nothing objectionable to Islam in Vande Mataram!

So much so he translated the words in Urdu so that the clergy could not fool the Muslim people.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 05 Nov 2009 11:04

Md. Arif Khan has consistently spoken out against the clergy's attempts to push religious issues. He opposed Rajiv's move during Shah Bano days too.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 05 Nov 2009 11:40

.

Chiddu has saved himself by saying that "he had left before anti-VM fatwa was issued". Ok fine. But what does he say about fatwa now? And IMO, Ramdevji too MUST make his stand on this anti-VM fatwa clear, because he did attend the meeting and the fatwa was made in that meeting, even if it was not in his presence.

If Chiddu or Ramdev or ANYONE keeps silence on this VM issue, then we must take this silence against him and not give him any benefit of doubt. I hope that Ramdevji makes his views on these anti-VM statements from mullahs clear ASAP.

---------

As per Ramdevji's political agenda, he like other politician (except me) keeps everything vague. He does NOT give draft of even one law he proposed. I The members of his Bharat Swabhiman Trust, including senior ones, have no clue on what exact changes they want. Ramdevji wants death punishment for corrupt, food adulterer, rapist etc (source : his Aaj Tak interview on youtube). He also wants Sanskrit to be language of instruction in schools !! He wants to abolish ALL taxes and have only one tax -- transaction tax and details of which are unknown to all BST members !! I can live with all this, except one : he does not give out DRAFTS of the changes in the laws he wants.

Here is the orkut community of BST

http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommTopics?cmm=57702578

And here are the questions I asked them :

http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cm ... 87&start=1

http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cm ... 5795129967

.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 05 Nov 2009 14:18

Transaction tax is an old and very good idea... Coupled with removal of all currency notes with denomination higher than Rs. 50; this would be an awesome method to curb black economy..

1. remove all the notes above Rs 50 (that is, Rs 100, Rs 500, Rs 1000)
2. Any transaction in cash above Rs. 5000 should be made illegal. Anything above 5000, you should do it through banks.
3. Abolish all taxes, and introduce 2% transaction tax on every transaction above Rs. 5000

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 05 Nov 2009 16:26

Chiron wrote:Transaction tax is an old and very good idea... Coupled with removal of all currency notes with denomination higher than Rs. 50; this would be an awesome method to curb black economy..

1. remove all the notes above Rs 50 (that is, Rs 100, Rs 500, Rs 1000)
2. Any transaction in cash above Rs. 5000 should be made illegal. Anything above 5000, you should do it through banks.
3. Abolish all taxes, and introduce 2% transaction tax on every transaction above Rs. 5000

If you post this in economics thread, I will explain why this will motivate as well as enable tax evaders to evade taxes easily, how it creates inefficient production methods and also why it is bad for poor.

I discussed these points on Bharat Swambhiman Trust orkut community.

http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cm ... 6790378095

And as per Ramdevji's stand on transaction tax goes : he supports it whole heartedly. Good. But when I ask BST members if they can show me the DRAFT of the law BST would pass in Parliament to enact BST, they give me blank stare --- what draft? When I ask details like : will interest paid be taken as transaction? Will principal withdraw be taken as transaction? Will salary paid be taken as transaction? They all give different answers. And when I ask if transaction tax will have VAT type structure where I can deduct the taxes paid from taxes collected. This shows that this tax code they propose was never really discussed in depth inside BST. So we have an organization of 1000s of members, who demand a taxation law and none has even seen or even thought of the DRAFT needed to bring that taxation law !! My organization is peanut if BST is taken as pumpkin. But each of the 20-25 regulars have clear idea of the tax laws I have proposed and at least know which page number of the manifesto has the description and which URL on by website has draft. The BST members have no clue about the laws BST proposes.

[BTW: I do want Ramdevji to do more BST work. It is benefiting me]

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Nov 2009 18:16

Sri RayC-ji,

Yes, the Indic aspects of Hinduism are all good. If you remember, in the “Civilizational Thread”, the word “Indic” came into use as a couple of people (including you) couldn’t understand the difference between Hinduism as a supra-religious consciousness in comparison to Abrahamic religions; and did not want to associate the “Hindu” word with thousands of years of Bharatiya civilization. So in fact Indic is a compromise word that we are using to satisfy the minority feelings in this nation. We are yet to see someone articulate the “civilizational” contributions of Islam and Christianity to Indic civilization even after repeated requests (Kandhamal thread, J&K thread, civilizational thread, future strategies thread etc). Till that additional information is provided, Indic will be synonymous to Hindu civilization, whether one likes it or not.

What you have done was to bring in every other religion when you wanted to criticize a specific religion. It is not balancing. It is pseudo-secularism at best and intellectual dishonesty at worst.

I have the courage to accept a true muslim to not sing Vandemataram. But I see very few of them in India, and interestingly none of those true muslims have any issues with Vandemataram. They do not need to write Vandemataram in Urdu to sanctify it for Islam. For gods sake Urdu is not even the language of Islam, Arabic is.

If you were to take your suggestion (to Baba Ramadev) seriously, you should confine yourself to military aspects; and I to whatever I do to make a living. I am glad Om brings interactivity and agrandisation to you. But you were commenting on Baba Ramadev, who is one of the authorities in yoga, in his call to use Ista Devata (preferred god-head) in their yoga practice. That is what I object to.

PS: No need to make India “Indicstan”. It is already Hindustan in the world’s and majority of Indian (including minorities) view.

Added Later: Please read the book "Hindu view of Life" by Dr. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, if you can. It is a small book of 100 pages. You will understand how various practices (that we see in Hinduism today) are included in the Supra-religious consciousness.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Nov 2009 18:22

SwamyG wrote:
Chiron wrote: Nice sentence.. But, Indic needs to redefine this part.. Because in long run, we are all dead.. This is exactly what I implied when I said "Complete knowledge favours inaction. Half-knowledge is sometimes essential to get things done. A thin veil of ignorance is Maya's way of maintaining the potential difference and getting things done" in Link-Language thread.
I in turn want to appreciate the nice sentence you wrote (highlighted in red). Beautiful insight. I used to think when one gets too contemplative or content, one can see futility in actions.

Chiron-ji and SwamyG garu,

Complete knowledge doesn’t result in inaction, as many think. It still results in action (karma), but in that the action becomes desireless. Such action will solve many issues that modern world is facing; professional jealousy, hyper tension, corporate greed, and personal and social corruption. This is the objective of Brahma-Jnana (true-knowledge).

The objective of Indic leadership must be to pass on this true-knowledge to the entire society (all classes and sections) so the gross-happiness-index reaches its heights. Kindly note that GHI and GDP are not mutually exclusive.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Nov 2009 18:48

There does appear to be a great deal of wisdom in the stipulation of the ancients that "knowledge" should be comprehensive. What I see is that sometimes, expertise or spectacular achievement in one area leads a person to feel confident about other areas too. This in itself is not a bad thing as far as motivation goes. But it should perhaps be then tempered with a self-restraint until the new area is "acquired". Baba Ramdev dealing with shrewd manipulators of politics, or anyone with high achievement in the military here going into sociological/political nitty gritty, should perhaps also be considering that - in my humble opinion. I have personally tried to steer clear of areas on BRF where I felt I have not yet that level of competence to confidently "speculate" and carry out "gedanken experimente" - even if they are part of my professional repertoire. If I have crossed over carelessly sometimes, I hope I have been quick to realize and withdraw.

Our "nationhood" is going through a crisis. Crisis are both good and bad. They are bad because they reduce the collective civilizational capital through attrition and waste, with the best minds and characters and abilities the first victims of external aggression. They are good, because it helps us to cut out the fat, the illusional, and rediscover the lean-mean core of what are the essentials.

But the collective historical experience of what happens when we become diffuse and all-embracing without guard or extreme caution, should not be thrown away. I am not syaing that it should restrict us in a rigid bind. But actions of "reaching out" and "opening out" should be done from a position of strength - strength to face and cancel the consequences when such "reaching out" potentially can be used as a Trojan Horse.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 05 Nov 2009 20:45

RamaY wrote:
SwamyG wrote:I in turn want to appreciate the nice sentence you wrote (highlighted in red). Beautiful insight. I used to think when one gets too contemplative or content, one can see futility in actions.
Chiron-ji and SwamyG garu,

Complete knowledge doesn’t result in inaction, as many think. It still results in action (karma), but in that the action becomes desireless. Such action will solve many issues that modern world is facing; professional jealousy, hyper tension, corporate greed, and personal and social corruption. This is the objective of Brahma-Jnana (true-knowledge).

The objective of Indic leadership must be to pass on this true-knowledge to the entire society (all classes and sections) so the gross-happiness-index reaches its heights. Kindly note that GHI and GDP are not mutually exclusive.

RamaY ji and SwamyG Ji

This is off topic here..But

Karma is usually defined by Indics as an action done by a sane human being with respect to other living being. With attainment of Kaivayla and Brahma-Gnaana, the duality vanishes. If everything is Brahman, who will do Karma? and With respect to whom? It is the apparent duality in the mind of a person which makes him perform the Karma. When this duality vanishes, there is no karma. It is total liberation..

Maya keeps this sense of duality by keeping a thin veil of ignorance on the eyes of Saadhak (Seeker). This sense of duality keeps him doing the Karma.

Kaivalya (Singularity) is a moment, according to Patanjali. He says, person experiences this moment after all the baggage of Sanchita-Karma is burnt out. The state is called Nirbeej Samadhi (Seedless Samadhi wherein Seed refers to ego OR aatman OR sense of "I", hence duality). Gnaanis usually leave this world in this state and at this moment. Others who have experienced it, they experience it for some moments and then come back to world of duality.While performing action, they maintain the duality and interact with people. That is, they voluntarily pull a thin veil of ignorance and interact with their world. They ofcourse perform Nishkam Karma, but Nishkam karma is still a karma. and concept of karma breaks down in the domains of Kaivalya. There is difference between Karma and Kriya (action)

Anyways...

it was nice... SwamyG Garu's appreciation was more in sync with dynamic of this thread...

Coming back to dynamic of this thread, sometimes, it is difficult to understand the complete bigger picture in available time. People who wait for complete understanding of the global picture before performing any action usually loose the opportunity. Very few lucky one's have access to all the date to get the dynamic of the bigger picture with the cumulative effect of subtle undercurrents on the larger picture. Out of those who have the access to data and information, not everybody is able to discern it completely.

Hence, it is practical to keep on doing something according to your current level of understanding while constantly trying to elevate oneself. The system is dynamic and while we keep on performing the selfish karma, that karma in turn influences the emerging picture in the direction of our actions. So as we progressively understand more and more, we get a real-time data of the emergent picture, hence greater control over the emergent outcome.

Indics need to start making short-term goals and start acting to achieve them. Their actions will greatly influence the emergent long-term picture. Thinking of long-term outcomes only, while others are acting on rather short-term and well defined goals and shifting the equilibrium in their favour is not a good idea for Indics.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 05 Nov 2009 21:00

RamaY garu:
If one understands the life on this planet and the workings of humans, and attains a great deal of content; what would motivate the individual to lead others?

Added: No doubt they say "Ignorance is bliss"

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 05 Nov 2009 21:01

>>>What I see is that sometimes, expertise or spectacular achievement in one area leads a person to feel confident about other areas too.
Brihaspati ji: My local radio station talk show host says "brilliance in one field does not translate to brilliance in another field"

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Nov 2009 21:07

Chiron wrote: Indics need to start making short-term goals and start acting to achieve them. Their actions will greatly influence the emergent long-term picture. Thinking of long-term outcomes only, while others are acting on rather short-term and well defined goals and shifting the equilibrium in their favour is not a good idea for Indics.

This I completely agree with, at both individual and leadership levels. Hope my individual actions reap some benefits to Matrubhoomi.

Now the question is should the leadership layout their plans, and the thought process behind them, to all sundry? In my experience , sometimes it is better not to let out your real objectives and plans. Just set things in motion and moderate the outcomes to meet your objectives.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 05 Nov 2009 21:07

RayC wrote: I wonder if it is fair to claim that BRF is Indicstan even if some attempt to make it so.

If you have a convention of ducks - expect a lot of quacking!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Nov 2009 21:13

RamaY wrote:Sri RayC-ji,

Yes, the Indic aspects of Hinduism are all good. If you remember, in the “Civilizational Thread”, the word “Indic” came into use as a couple of people (including you) couldn’t understand the difference between Hinduism as a supra-religious consciousness in comparison to Abrahamic religions; and did not want to associate the “Hindu” word with thousands of years of Bharatiya civilization. So in fact Indic is a compromise word that we are using to satisfy the minority feelings in this nation. We are yet to see someone articulate the “civilizational” contributions of Islam and Christianity to Indic civilization even after repeated requests (Kandhamal thread, J&K thread, civilizational thread, future strategies thread etc). Till that additional information is provided, Indic will be synonymous to Hindu civilization, whether one likes it or not.

What you have done was to bring in every other religion when you wanted to criticize a specific religion. It is not balancing. It is pseudo-secularism at best and intellectual dishonesty at worst.

I have the courage to accept a true muslim to not sing Vandemataram. But I see very few of them in India, and interestingly none of those true muslims have any issues with Vandemataram. They do not need to write Vandemataram in Urdu to sanctify it for Islam. For gods sake Urdu is not even the language of Islam, Arabic is.

If you were to take your suggestion (to Baba Ramadev) seriously, you should confine yourself to military aspects; and I to whatever I do to make a living. I am glad Om brings interactivity and agrandisation to you. But you were commenting on Baba Ramadev, who is one of the authorities in yoga, in his call to use Ista Devata (preferred god-head) in their yoga practice. That is what I object to.

PS: No need to make India “Indicstan”. It is already Hindustan in the world’s and majority of Indian (including minorities) view.

Added Later: Please read the book "Hindu view of Life" by Dr. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, if you can. It is a small book of 100 pages. You will understand how various practices (that we see in Hinduism today) are included in the Supra-religious consciousness.

The trouble is that we live on the laurels of the past and the Indic chaps do the same!

What of it?

Where are we now?

Has our glorious past helped us?

Learn to live in the present and not on the goodness of your ancestors!

The ancestors of Tipu Sultan, Nawab of Oudh, Bahadur Shah Zaffar live in abject poverty! They have their dreams of the past, but what is their present?!

Wake up and smell the coffee and if you have the money to waste try Barista or Coffee Day!

I am very clear. Omar Khayaam and Kalidas are my heros to guide me through this world.

'Unborn tomorrow and dead yesterday
Why fret about them if today be sweet..."

"Look to this day
In its brief space lies the verities and realities of existence"

Hinduism is a vast all embracing concept and not a narrow minded schism as presented by many!

It is those who present the narrow mindedness who do immense disservice to the great concept of Hinduism!

The problem is that you live in a high tower.

Have you interacted with Moslems? Of course, you will say, you have. But let me assure you that I do in my 'little' way. You would not realise the hold of their clergy over the illiterate Moslems. Are you aware that they wear a different type of a belt to indicate their religiosity?

Even today, I interacted with the Moslem workers to tell them what is Islam and how wrong their mullahs were

Baba Ramdev may be a God to you. I don't think much of him. Another publicity hunter. Have you done yoga? I am sure you will say yes. Baba Ramdev is just another TV icon, there are many who are genuine yoga masters who do not require publicity. You would not have heard of them and they are no way inforeir to this Ramdev man.

If Ramdev says yoga is an all cure how is it that one of his eye is like a squint?

You keep your views and I mine.

But a serious yoga man does not dabble in politics!

Yoga keeps the mind sublime.

Please desist from using ''Bharatiya'' and ''Índic'' to hide what you exactly want to say.

It is getting a wee bit overpowering!!

Be up front!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Nov 2009 21:23

SwamyG wrote:RamaY garu:
If one understands the life on this planet and the workings of humans, and attains a great deal of content; what would motivate the individual to lead others?

SwamyG garu

There are examples: Rama, Krishna, Shamkara, Vidyaranya, Gandhi, Ramana Maharshi, Jesus, Buddha, Guru Nanak etc... Some came to masses as incarnation (the param brahma itself), others returned to masses after attaining self-realization.

Coming back to the topic; the leadership happens at different levels IMO - spiritual, intellectual, social, occupational etc. The national leadership must work towards realizing the dream of this nation; whatever that is. But thinking that it somehow contradicts with spritual leadership is wrong.

The problem is when as aspect of nationalism conflicts with a specific ideology. What should change? The ideology or constitution? The so-called secularists say they should be left alone. I say the national constitution should override the ideological leadership.