Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

[Suresh S]

The C-17 has brought us into the list of logistic "fellow travellers",a back door (don't Congresswallahs love the "back door"),of the US's military allies.It is really meant for intercontinental missions,to ferry Indian troops to hot spots worldwide,easing the "burden" of the white man in the wars he has started but cannot stop! This is the "great white hope",that we send millions of our soldiers as we did in the two WWs,to fight in those foreign fields in wars not of our making,but for Uncle Sam and Co.


I can not agree more philip. In the 2nd WW the decision of this pathetic congress party (and specifically of "Mahatama" Gandhi )to agree to send Indian troops as mercenaries to fight for the British all over the world was nothing short of treasonous to the Indian nation.The order should have been to go and attack the British army ,not fight for them.
These same Indian forces were fighting and killing the real patriots of the INA under Netaji.
This man I would call a 'Mahatama" if he had not touched politics and stayed as a sadhu throughout his life like Swami Vivekananda.
But by entering politics and his many wrong policies has caused the Indian nation irreparable harm which we will suffer for centuries to come, it is my prediction.
What we needed was a Chanakaya and chandragupt Maurya and we were cursed with this 'Mahatama" and we are still paying the price for that and will continue to for a very long time.

[nachiket]

I would advise people to read the C-17 discussion in the old "Transport Aircraft" thread before commenting on it. Philip's hackneyed arguments against it were refuted by knowledgeable members like rohitvats, Karan M, Kartik, Surya etc. multiple times in that thread. The current corruption scam has nothing to do with the C-17 and C-130 deals. It has already claimed its first victim - the 197 Light helicopter deal now stands frozen. We do not need more "done" deals to be linked to this without proof.
It doesn't matter if our VVIPs don't get cushy AW-101s, so the cancellation of this deal is unimportant. But other procurements are important in enhancing the fighting potential of our armed forces and should not be needlessly brought into the discussion.

[Nikhil T]

There are letters from no other than Brajesh Mishra to lower the ceiling to 15,000 feet. Brajesh Mishra has clearly stated that the initial requirements were made "without consulting the PMO and the SPG". I

Brajesh Mishra raised single-vendor query

Air Marshal SP Tyagi is being made a scapegoat. AM Tyagi was one of the finest officers, who ferried the first Jags from UK to India. His fault is 3 cousins whose EXACT role and nature of business dealing with Augusta has not been proved. And even if the cousins took Euro 100,000 - who took the 99.99% of Rs 400 crores that the Italians are claiming as kickbacks? There are higher fish in the play whose name would never come out in CBI enquiries - as has been going on for last 60 years.

My hunch is that the deal as in NDA tenure was clean (2003 was when RFP was watered down). Its when the UPA came about that the 2007 tender was vitiated.

[Sanku]

I am really wondering about the C-130J and C-17 deal prices. They aircraft look uber expensive.

There is obvious corruption in those deals, its just that they are at a different level, in terms of quid pro quo for 123 and US help in winning the trust vote.

The facts that a/cs may not be completely junk (C 17 will be white elephant) is secondary, Bofors purchase was primarily for corruption, even if the guns were good.

So a a/c being good or not good is not germane to this, however, once we understand the reasons of purchase are not the best, one does wonder if the same requirements could not be met efficiently from elsewhere.

[Aditya_V]

I am not denying both the C-17 and C-130J are excellent Aircraft and may serve the IAF well. the only question is higher price we are paying for both compared to Nato and other Non Nato allies.

I am against this NO further payment Business, does that mean like HDW, Denel, Agusta etc payments already made are a complete loss to the the people of India, i.e Govt. of India. WTF

Denel was cancelled without any public Info.

And what about the case of Barak-1 purchase where a former Naval chief and George Fernandes were accused only to have their names cleared later.

As Tehelka and Media corruption in Indian defense began in 1998 and 2004 with no stings after that. Only people guilty were those persons who joined MOD well before 1998 who continued their past practices.

It Seems George Fernandes was particularly targeted for being a Christian and yet daring to work with the Communal BJP and seen as Traitor by the some Indian Elite and Media. All those allegations against his wrong doing have come as a cropper. Personally, I think he is the Saint and not the current Raksha Mantri

[Sanku]

Personally, I think he is the Saint and not the current Raksha Mantri

I know a number of people who worked closely with GF in MoD and the Sena/Vayu Sena bhawan -- to a man they attest that George uncle was one of the best people they met, with a huge respect for men in uniform, not influenced by babu's correct to a fault. With zero possessions and no materialistic interests whatsoever.

He is supposed to be one of the few Neta's who were held in esteem even greater than uniformed seniors at times.

[member_23455]

Ok...where to start:

1. Let's not mix the effectiveness of a weapon system with corruption around it. Yes I will remind people again about Bofors and no I am not Manish Tiwari in real life.

2. Blacklisting firms/cancelling contracts is like cutting the nose to spite the face. It makes the next procurement even more vulnerable to exploitation - leave alone create glaring weaknesses in capability. Punish people, fine these companies but the product must continue to be supported/delivered unless the product itself is crap e.g. Krasnopol laser guided arty shells.

3. What madrassa mathematics is this for people on BR to compare unit prices of weapon systems and come to conclusions that one has paid more without factoring in the mode of purchase and the configuration, as well as fine print on support etc. In fact, would it be acceptable if say LM gave us an aircraft for $3 million per unit less than USAF, if it paid an Air Marshal a $1 million bribe to facilitate?

4. George Fernandes, AK Antony halos of personal incorruptibility mean squat if they fail to check egregious corruption happening under their noses - that's a key part of their job description.

5. Unless we get real about agents, lobbying, commissions and make these activities transparent and structured, we will keep revisiting this issue multiple times in a year, and regardless of govt., as Tehelka so brilliantly illustrated.

[member_23455]

There are letters from no other than Brajesh Mishra to lower the ceiling to 15,000 feet. Brajesh Mishra has clearly stated that the initial requirements were made "without consulting the PMO and the SPG". I

Brajesh Mishra raised single-vendor query

Air Marshal SP Tyagi is being made a scapegoat. AM Tyagi was one of the finest officers, who ferried the first Jags from UK to India. His fault is 3 cousins whose EXACT role and nature of business dealing with Augusta has not been proved. And even if the cousins took Euro 100,000 - who took the 99.99% of Rs 400 crores that the Italians are claiming as kickbacks? There are higher fish in the play whose name would never come out in CBI enquiries - as has been going on for last 60 years.

My hunch is that the deal as in NDA tenure was clean (2003 was when RFP was watered down). Its when the UPA came about that the 2007 tender was vitiated.

Wow! Do David Petraeus and Randy Cunningham's even more impressive exploits explain their less than acceptable behavior later on?

Unless you have actual proof and not emotional basis for the argument...

[Sanku]

Agree with point 1 and 2.

3. What madrassa mathematics is this for people on BR to compare unit prices of weapon systems and come to conclusions that one has paid more without factoring in the mode of purchase and the configuration, as well as fine print on support etc. In fact, would it be acceptable if say LM gave us an aircraft for $3 million per unit less than USAF, if it paid an Air Marshal a $1 million bribe to facilitate?

Madarssa math may be your specialty, others know of the things you think you know before you ever posted here. So speak for yourself rather than other posters on BR. Your cluelessness about others posters is not others problem.

4. George Fernandes, AK Antony halos of personal incorruptibility mean squat if they fail to check egregious corruption happening under their noses - that's a key part of their job description.

Absolutely, and that is why GF stands out. Not a single case of kickbacks under him. Yes efficiency and best practices questions can be raised. But corruption -- no.

5. Unless we get real about agents, lobbying, commissions and make these activities transparent and structured, we will keep revisiting this issue multiple times in a year, and regardless of govt., as Tehelka so brilliantly illustrated.

That is why NDA came up with the Def Purchase Plan of 2004 -- but then procedures etc work only to a point. If the head is some one like Dhana-nand, any thing can be subverted. Will is critical

The only check is that they lose and the next govt provides for free investigations into their crimes.

[Philip]

Nachi,you are right.The C-17 is a diff. kettle of fish.The AW scam and the C-17 acquisitions have nothing in common.The differences are:

1.AW-101. We acquire 12 ultra expensive helos for our fatted VVIPs,when Obama who was to have got just 3 of them,cancelled the deal because of the expense involved.I have given figures to show that we appear to have paid more than the US price.Secondly,at the last air show,there were several examples of VVIP interiors for MI-17Vs,which we are acquiring in large numbers.It would've been better to have acquired VVIP variants of the same or other western helos at lesser cost.In any case,chaff dispensers and other anti-air defences are add-ons which can be retrofitted to almost any type of helo.Since the USMC were to have acquired them,our desi bigwigs wanted nothing but the best and most expensive! Pl. do a comparison and see what type of VVIP helos are used by the world's top western leaders .Are they also not under threat from Al Q and other Islamic jihadis for the western military onslaught in Muslim countries across the Middle East and Af-Pak?

In the AW scam,the current politics in Italy,where bunga-bunga Berlo is desperate to make a comeback,wields enormous influence being the Rupert Murdoch of Italy,with vast incriminating info about his rivals and enemies,have cast their shadow on the Indian contract.Our AW scam is not central to the larger issue of the sacking of the Finmecannica head.

2.The C-17 acquisition which I showed with several quotes from AWST,etc.,was timed to prevent Boeing from closing down its C-17 production line.From nowhere on the list of priorities the demand for the same arose.An intercontinental strategic transport was not on the list before.We are planning to acquire 12+ more when the combined numbers of the NATO nations is 20+ only! We have also not declared in any strategic review a top priority for expeditionary force projection that demanded a quick induction of such a large transport.Upgraded versions of the IL-76,the IL-476 are in production ,they would've sufficed for our subcontinental needs.Did we not successfully transport a Sukhoi team using IL-76s to take part in exercises in the US not too long ago? Op Cactus was also a success using IL-76s.

Let us look at the acquisition positively for argument's sake.There is no grouse about the capabilities of the aircraft at all,only the need for it and the numbers required.IF we have changed tack and have an intercon strat. requirement,pray,where are we going and to the rescue of whom? The country needs to know.Are we going to be like the mercenaries of OZ,blind followers of Uncle Sam's disastrous foreign wars? The lack of "essentials" by this pathetic leadership is too well known for them to have any global ambitions,when little sprats like the Maldives and wannabee dictatorships like the Lankan royals cock-a-snoop at us! We are too scared to take up the offer of Vietnam to use their Cam Ranh Bay naval and air facilities,so what are we going to use these intercon birds for? Had we taken up the Vietnamese offer,I would plump for such an acquisition,but perhaps not as many C-17s as has been ordered,which are to the comfort of Boeing and not India.We have done Boeing a huge political favour.But then,wasn't this allegedly part of the pay-off for the US for the N-deal,where we promised to buy huge qtys. of US mil eqpt.?

Even if we needed a larger aircraft than the IL-76,with a larger payload and only the C-17 was available, a smaller number would've sufficed when we compare NATO's numbers and ours.
This is my viewpoint,I stick to it,others may have their own.In time,as with the AW deal the truth will out.

As for the C-130-J,great aircraft,I've always said so,we should buy more-bought more of these rather than C-17s,as these are perfect for supplying our Himalayan bases operating from small airstrips.

Sadly,the GOI of the day will now ostrich like shove its head in the sand and delay all future def. acquisitions until it hopes to get re-elected,putting the armed forces under severe strain.I give a recommendation to get around the problem.

Let all def. acquisitions be on a govt-to-govt basis,as with the FMA route,or where interested companies tendering for the items or in a contest,are guaranteed by their respective govts. against graft.The onus on preventing corrupt practices then rests with the govt. in Q.A foreign govt. "overseer" would vet the offer and assure the GOI of fair play.If violated,it could bring down a foreign govt. as happened in Japan with the Lockheed scandal,so there would be far more seriousness in clinching a deal fairly which guarantees jobs at home,re-election than risk a scandal.

The GOI of the day could also have a representative from the principal Opposition party,or a few members of the Parliamentary committee on defence,part of the final approval process.The PC usually castigates the govt. of the day for tardiness in ensuring the nation's safety,delays in defence decisions,etc.so why not make them part of the solution? We would not then have the rancorous walk-outs in the house and cheap shots being hurled at each other.

PS:Some thoughts on Uncle George.He was a jawan's def. min. first,not a bum chum of the officers,but was liked by all in general.The manner in which he sacked Adm.Bhagwat though was shameful.It showed up his "socialist/leftist" maverick's manners.He also was wrong to have had a motley bunch of international "freedom fighters" operating out of his official residence as alleged.It detracted from his objectiveness on matters foreign.In weighing him in the balance though he was a positive def. min.,nobody doubted his sincerity of purpose.He showed the ordinary foot soldier that the govt. of the day cared for them and visited them in their most inhospitable battle stations.He did leave his mark on the ministry and will be fondly remembered.

[member_23455]

Agree with point 1 and 2.

3. What madrassa mathematics is this for people on BR to compare unit prices of weapon systems and come to conclusions that one has paid more without factoring in the mode of purchase and the configuration, as well as fine print on support etc. In fact, would it be acceptable if say LM gave us an aircraft for $3 million per unit less than USAF, if it paid an Air Marshal a $1 million bribe to facilitate?

Madarssa math may be your specialty, others know of the things you think you know before you ever posted here. So speak for yourself rather than other posters on BR. Your cluelessness about others posters is not others problem.

4. George Fernandes, AK Antony halos of personal incorruptibility mean squat if they fail to check egregious corruption happening under their noses - that's a key part of their job description.

Absolutely, and that is why GF stands out. Not a single case of kickbacks under him. Yes efficiency and best practices questions can be raised. But corruption -- no.

5. Unless we get real about agents, lobbying, commissions and make these activities transparent and structured, we will keep revisiting this issue multiple times in a year, and regardless of govt., as Tehelka so brilliantly illustrated.

That is why NDA came up with the Def Purchase Plan of 2004 -- but then procedures etc work only to a point. If the head is some one like Dhana-nand, any thing can be subverted. Will is critical

The only check is that they lose and the next govt provides for free investigations into their crimes.

Really? Pulling rank based on number of posts . Some of us value quality over quantity...eh? But please provide a specific example of an inflated per unit cost on this thread and one can debate, instead of puffing over forum seniority!

ref GF clearly a skewed view of a person who fired one of the highly regarded service chiefs over an ego issue, but no wish to derail this thread on that point

NDA blah blah...Factually incorrect. No govt. has come up with a policy mainstreaming above activities, thus further criminalizing it. Banning middlemen/agents being the most glaring example of an illogical and hypocritical worldview.

[Surya]

So tyagi admits that he met one of the middle men at his cousins place - yeah the ones who he claims swore that they had nothing to do with this

one of the other middlemen claims he has met Tyagi 6 to 7 times

although one of them seems to be wrong dates (aero india)

what is at least emerging is that Tyagi was frequenting functions at his cousins place where these crooks hing around

so far blaming it on Brajesh mishra who is not here anyway is not helping

[Surya]

the IL-476 are in production

yes yes 11 rolled out last week

we can have scams with genuine needs

and scams with superficial crap like the AW101

St anthony buries all of them

Meanwhile the usual plan of action rolls out

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chop ... 50263.html

First ask the party who gave bribes "Did you give bribes?"

now this will take a few months

meanwhile the plan is probably on to figure out how to file a useless mistake laden LR

Like in Yes prime minister - there must be discussions on which pliable crooks can be put on an inquiry panel

oh the joys of corrupted democracy

[nachiket]

meanwhile the plan is probably on to figure out how to file a useless mistake laden LR

Like in Yes prime minister - there must be discussions on which pliable crooks can be put on an inquiry panel

oh the joys of corrupted democracy

This whole thing reminded me of Yes Minister. The GoI (including Mr.Clean Antony) had apparently conducted an "inquiry" into this deal and found nothing. Of course, as Sir Humphrey Applebee tells us, the whole objective of Government inquiries is to kill press stories, not to find out the truth, which certainly seems to be the case here.

[nachiket]

the IL-476 are in production

yes yes 11 rolled out last week

Surya saar, your sarcasm will be lost on those here who haven't followed the C-17/IL-76 discussion.

[Ankit Desai]

So tyagi admits that he met one of the middle men at his cousins place - yeah the ones who he claims swore that they had nothing to do with this

one of the other middlemen claims he has met Tyagi 6 to 7 times

although one of them seems to be wrong dates (aero india)

what is at least emerging is that Tyagi was frequenting functions at his cousins place where these crooks hing around

so far blaming it on Brajesh mishra who is not here anyway is not helping

Tyagi also said that he had very less contact with cousins during his tenure as IAF Chief, contact only increase after his retirement. IIRC meeting at his cousins place was after retirement.

Mishra was Cezar of Indian intelligence or security matter. How come he missed to include SPG's input during forming of initial RFP where RFP meant to buy choppers for VVIPs who have SPG cover 24x7?

I am just saying don't blame other and let go one. Let more details come out.

RFP had been changed is also a fact. Those changes may be for good may be to get benefit out of deal. Tyagi met his cousins is also a fact and it is also a fact that RFP changed to include few changes to widen competitor's pool which resulted Augsta to win the deal which was not considered/qualified for initial RFP.

-Ankit

[nachiket]

Couple of things that bother me about changing the RFP to reduce the required service ceiling. The other helicopter in the fray was the Sikorsky S-92 which can't fly to 18000 ft either. So without modifying that value we would have been left with a no-vendor situation not a single-vendor situation. The other thing is that even if it had become single-vendor situation with Agusta-Westland withdrawing due to the service ceiling issue and someone else qualifying, that would have invalidated the deal as per the guidelines and we wouldn't have been able to buy any choppers.

[vic]

One can has to accept that bribes are norm. The problem is nowadays purchase of useless junk in name of defense need like tin cans, beretta carbines and golden carpets like Agustawestland.

[vasu raya]

Nachi, RFPs shouldn't be one way streets, they would have to see what options are out there, however you may be right, for example if HAL Dhruv's initial specs were sent out as an RFP, it would have no takers given that it had to meet the requirements of all three services.

The VVIP Helo didn't have any special 'should be operable in the unique Indian conditions clause' meaning should fly in Siachen and have low maintenance issues in the hot Thar desert and also fly in the foggy NE etc., so many choppers would qualify. when you drop in a req. of 3 engines etc. for fail safe operation, you still end up with one vendor situation, S-92 or not.

Is there a provision for validating the RFP per the tendering guidelines by a qualified agency other than the stakeholders IAF & Home Ministry?

[Kanson]

So tyagi admits that he met one of the middle men at his cousins place - yeah the ones who he claims swore that they had nothing to do with this

one of the other middlemen claims he has met Tyagi 6 to 7 times

although one of them seems to be wrong dates (aero india)

what is at least emerging is that Tyagi was frequenting functions at his cousins place where these crooks hing around

so far blaming it on Brajesh mishra who is not here anyway is not helping

In the interview, linked here, he mentioned, not met any of these people during his service as Chief, hmmm... Is he not telling the truth?

[member_23364]

Simply stunning viewpoints posted by many experts here. But the question here is very simple-Who took the money?

The answer is also very simple-Follow the money.

AW paid 51 Million Euros. We know how the money was sent-routed through Tunisia and camouflaged as payments for software services and came in through "official channels". We even know the installment amounts, i.e. how much was paid every month. Now, who received the money? Should not be very difficult to find out. This transfer is (in 99% probability) an ACH transfer. RBI tracks these foreign currency inflows very very closely. Does not need a CBI inquiry, in my opinion. Should be a simple 2-3 day job for a RBI analyst, provided he gets clearance (which should also not be a problem) to track the end receiver's account numbers.

Then again, When the Italians know that Tyagi's cousins got 100,000 Euros and that Julie received the money; I am sure they know where the rest of the 51 Million went

Btw, I am an MBA in Finance and I work at a major US Bank the last 7+ years, and I know what I am talking about.

[KrishnaK]

Couple of things that bother me about changing the RFP to reduce the required service ceiling. The other helicopter in the fray was the Sikorsky S-92 which can't fly to 18000 ft either. So without modifying that value we would have been left with a no-vendor situation not a single-vendor situation. The other thing is that even if it had become single-vendor situation with Agusta-Westland withdrawing due to the service ceiling issue and someone else qualifying, that would have invalidated the deal as per the guidelines and we wouldn't have been able to buy any choppers.

The other contender was EC 225 IMO. The service ceiling for that is 19,357 ft per wikipedia.

[nachiket]

The other contender was EC 225 IMO. The service ceiling for that is 19,357 ft per wikipedia.

So it would have been a single vendor situation, which would have ended up with the deal being cancelled since single vendor deals aren't allowed as per the norms, unless it is via FMS route.

[member_23455]

The other contender was EC 225 IMO. The service ceiling for that is 19,357 ft per wikipedia.

So it would have been a single vendor situation, which would have ended up with the deal being cancelled since single vendor deals aren't allowed as per the norms, unless it is via FMS route.

Small nit-pick...single vendor can also be allowed if services/MoD can submit a case of special circumstances e.g. technology denial like happened in the case of Phalcon.

[ramana]

Guru_Tat the whole purpose of AKA referring to Coverup Bureau Investigation is to cover that up. Its not to find out who got the money.

Everyone knows who got it. Its the INC which takes a cut on all defence deals since Chacha Nehru and his jeep scam. If found out they will sacrifice a bakara or scape goat.
AKA's job is to make Tyagi a scapegoat.

[Surya]

Ankit said

Tyagi also said that he had very less contact with cousins during his tenure as IAF Chief, contact only increase after his retirement. IIRC meeting at his cousins place was after retirement.

He can say what wants for now - unlike moi who has not met face to face with any of my cousins in last decade - I would assume the others are more decent and close folks

jokes aside - if I was at a senior level i would be very careful of who I meet especially if my relatives are involved in a deal which my organisation is involved in.

Kanson

He has agreed on one (india today link I think) - he is denying the others or claiming they could have been there but he was just a visitor - there were no discussions.

We need to see what other stuff comes out from the italians. tyagi maybe just one piece here. Of course if he is part of it I have no sympathy even if he made the scapegoat.


nachiket

I keep trying with the sarcasm

[vasu raya]

Local news says that in a fire accident at Begumpet airport on Dec 19th 2012, an Augusta Westland chopper (different model?) meant for the CM along with five trainer aircraft were burnt down and the state govt. will claim insurance money. This Chopper was bought during YSR's tenure.

First hint of Italian investigation came before Dec 2012

[SagarAg]

Simply stunning viewpoints posted by many experts here. But the question here is very simple-Who took the money?

The answer is also very simple-Follow the money.

AW paid 51 Million Euros. We know how the money was sent-routed through Tunisia and camouflaged as payments for software services and came in through "official channels". We even know the installment amounts, i.e. how much was paid every month. Now, who received the money? Should not be very difficult to find out. This transfer is (in 99% probability) an ACH transfer. RBI tracks these foreign currency inflows very very closely. Does not need a CBI inquiry, in my opinion. Should be a simple 2-3 day job for a RBI analyst, provided he gets clearance (which should also not be a problem) to track the end receiver's account numbers.

Then again, When the Italians know that Tyagi's cousins got 100,000 Euros and that Julie received the money; I am sure they know where the rest of the 51 Million went

Btw, I am an MBA in Finance and I work at a major US Bank the last 7+ years, and I know what I am talking about.

Well to be true, GoI already know who the culprits are, who took the bribe money, where it went and all. Its just that the deal got busted/exposed in public courtesy Italian investigation. Otherwise GoI is not some clueless headless chicken wandering around. That is why they need the CBI inquiry to cover up the tracks (Coverup Bureau of India).

PS:As Ramana Garu said above.

[pentaiah]

the IL-476 are in production
yes yes 11 rolled out last week

Surya saar, your sarcasm will be lost on those here who haven't followed the C-17/IL-76 discussion.

nachiket sir jee ,you sir underestimate the intelligence of BRF members, it may levitate you momentarily but sure will land on terra firma

[Ankit Desai]

Then again, When the Italians know that Tyagi's cousins got 100,000 Euros and that Julie received the money; I am sure they know where the rest of the 51 Million went

There are many others are involved in scam other than CEO of company and tyagi cousins. For example a guy called Michal from England and one Swedish guy too and one/many from India (whom we all eager to know) .

-Ankit

[rohitvats]

Rohit - i read it the other way the fact that he confidently wants a CBI inquiry makes me feel there is some validity to it again the only hope is the italians for whatever reason are pursuing this

all out inquiries are just a sham

Surya - the way I see it, the Italians are quoting ACM Tyagi's name in a casual manner.

Given the nature of the deal and rank he held - plus relationship with T3 brothers (patented ) - the conclusion is being drawn in the Italian submission that T3 brothers used the good office of their brother to swing the deal. And that too, based on some third party discussions.

The point is - if Tyagi had to be paid, it would be to swing the selection process - the actual process of flight testing and RFP criterion. Now, we know that the latter were changed on insistence of NSA and SPG - so, no role for Tyagi. And no one has claimed any issue with actual flight testing.

Also, of all the money trail of Euro 51 Million, only Euro 100,000 seems to have reached the T3 brothers. And since we're using the T3 angle for ACM Tyagi, well, that is less than 2% of the total bribe amount. Tyagi (or, T3 brothers) should have got much more if ACM helped swing a deal.

But the fact of the matter is, most of the money was received by the Italian middlemen - which they used to grease the palm of powers-that-be in India.

IMO, there is one additional possibility - if ACM was paid anything, it could well be for insider info - something like our Rajat Gupta - which the T3 brothers got from him using their connection. That would be hard to nail unless someone in AW talks and divulges this piece of information.

To me, this 'swing-the-deal' argument against ACM Tyagi is looking weaker by the day.

[Surya]

rohit

thats because we are all going witht he ceiling as the only thing

who knows what else was there (I agree it might be insider info too)

plus the Italians for now are basing it on their interrogations of the characters out there and what they have picked up in their homes. with their long expertise in chasing the mafia goons - they may have wiretaps too

(confession: I am a fan of Octopus and have always admired the small number of incredibly gutsy prosecutors and others in a country where things leak from top to bottom )
For our sake I hope they find something which rocks our establishment. i dont care if that sweeps an ex chief with it for $2. I am sick and tired of the scams


I do agree if Tyagi is involved then he is a minor cog and there are INC connections who probably got the big piece

but still the whole Tyagi cousin thing stinks to high heavens

[pentaiah]

after the bofors everone except CBI DRI have improved the intelligence to leave no trail (like the marines leave no one)
it is simply impossible wit Indian babudum and justice to prove anything.

its entirely true the guy who said India babus are morons......
even our own Rahul Baba and his cousins have said India ia bana republic aka or ardhath Bahana Republic

[SagarAg]

Chopper scam: Ex-air chief SP Tyagi used to brief us on tender developments, claim middlemen
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 505719.cms

NEW DELHI: The alleged middlemen in the deal for VVIP helicopters have claimed that the then Air chief SP Tyagi used to brief them on the developments in the tender, according to Italian investigators.

Haschke and Gerosa have reportedly claimed that Tyagi would keep them updated on the tender for the 12 helicopters during their meetings, which are believed to have taken place six to seven times.

They have also claimed that they had managed to modify conditions of the tender, including reducing the flight ceiling from 18,000 to 15,000 feet, which made Augusta's AW- 101 eligible for the bid, according to a report filed by investigators in an Italian court.

"(Guido Ralph) Hashcke and (Carlo) Gerosa, through the Tyagi brothers, in turn through their cousin ACM SP Tyagi, managed first to change the tender details, in a way to favour, modifying the "operational ceiling" from 18,000 to 15,000 feet of altitude, thus allowing AgustaWestland spa (which otherwise could not have even submitted an offer) to take part in the tender," the report said.

"They managed to introduce a comparative flight trial with non-functional engine, thus facilitating AgustaWestland helicopters, the only ones which had three engines. In this way they managed to get the contract to AgustaWestland," it alleged.

Tyagi has denied any wrongdoing although he has admitted having met one of the alleged middlemen at the residence of his cousin. According to the investigators, 21 million euros (about Rs 150 crore) were paid as kickbacks under the cover of engineering contracts reportedly through companies IDS Tunisia and IDS India.

NDA changed specs, UPA implemented: MoD
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nda-c ... d/1074343/

The Defence ministry Thursday made public details of the process that led to key changes in the technical requirements of the VVIP helicopter deal and said the decision to make the changes was taken in 2003 when the NDA was in power.

However, it also said that these changes were effected in 2005-06 when the UPA was in charge. The explanation note from the ministry came in response to allegations by Italian investigators earlier this week that business conglomerate Finmeccanica paid bribes to then IAF chief S P Tyagi to tweak the parameters to help its AgustaWestland choppers qualify for the bidding.

Tyagi has denied the allegations, first reported by The Indian Express, and has demanded an investigation.

The MoD note says that a decision to change the altitude requirements of the chopper - a key factor according to the Italian probe - was taken at a meeting on November 19, 2003 by then National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra to avoid a single-vendor situation and to expand the search for a new chopper.

It says that the actual changes in the qualitative requirements were carried out between March 2005 and September 2006, after discussions between various stakeholders.

"Operational requirements were deliberated at length between IAF, NSA, SPG/PMO and MoD between March 2005 to September 2006 and the above indicated changes (as suggested by Mishra in 2003) were incorporated (sic)," the note says.

Tyagi had also said on Wednesday that the requirements were changed in 2003 on the directions of Mishra. But he had also said that no changes were made when he headed the force from 2004 to 2007.
The MoD note does not explain the two-year gap between the time the changes were agreed upon when the NDA was in power and their actual implementation.There you go It says the Acceptance of Necessity (AON) - a formal document authorizing the purchase - was given in January 2006.

The Italian investigation report has said that AgustaWestland paid bribes after a middleman claimed he could fix the technical requirements to favour the entry of the helicopter manufacturer for the Rs 3,546-crore contract.

In his confession statement to Italian prosecutors, the Swiss-based middleman Guido Haschke has said that when he first arranged a meeting between Finmeccanica officials and Tyagi in early 2005, the specifications for the deal required the helicopter to be capable of flying at an altitude of 18,000 ft.

Haschke has also said that the first time he met Finmeccanica CEO Giuseppe Orsi in 2005, the changes had not been done. "The first meeting with Orsi (Spring 2005) happened when the operational ceiling had not yet been lowered. This is what I can remember today," Haschke has said.

He also claims that over the next few months, he met Tyagi several times and the then Air Chief told him in one of these meetings that the requirements for the chopper were being lowered soon.

"Tyagi informed us that the operational ceiling would be lowered. Carlo and I thanked him for coming to the office. The meeting was very short. I don't remember exactly if the operational ceiling was lowered before or after summer 2005," the middleman has said.
Haschke has also spoken of another meeting in 2006, when he says the requirements had been relaxed. "During this meeting we spoke about the technical specifications of the AW101 helicopters. The operational ceiling had already been lowered," he has said.

According to the Italian investigation report, the middlemen were first paid by Finmeccanica in 2005 to try and get the specifications changed and regular payoffs in the form of phoney engineering contracts started from 2007 and continued at least until 2011.

[Ankit Desai]

Some more skeleton ? Brigadier in Indian Army asked for 5 million dollar bribe: Italian enquiry

The deal is on hold, and AgustaWestland did not make the shortlist for the tender, but the Italian report says that instead of disclosing the offer made by a man identified as "Brigadier Saini", the company told said he should be "more patient and we will give you an answer at the end of the competition."

-Ankit

[Ankit Desai]

I am not a fan of INC but so far no congress person's name come out of in the scandal. It will be great if some INC people involved in it. It will add some spice to 2014 general election.

surya, I got your point (may be) that Mishra is not alive so it is easy to scapegoat him. But let's wait for more detail even before making retd air force chief Tyagi a scapegoat.

I hope too much rocking of establishment won't pause defense deals. Indian arm forces need big time modernization, specially the strike corp coming up to counter china.

-Ankit

[rohitvats]

Someone, please get an Oscar or whatever you get for getting things right...

The inside information angle...hehehehehe!!!

[Surya]

ankit

I agree and I am trying to not go over the top on the the former ACM but we have to doubt him.

the scales right now are tipping way in the other direction

wondering why Jaswant is jumping out.

I dont trust any of these guys - whatever party they belonfg to (barring GF)

[SBajwa]

by Snahata
This is the "great white hope",that we send millions of our soldiers as we did in the two WWs,to fight in those foreign fields in wars not of our making,but for Uncle Sam and Co.

Well! when our IITans can work in Silicon valley, when our doctors can work in hospitals all over USA what is wrong with outsourcing the soldiering jobs? Poor volunteer soldiers will earn hard currency and can uplift their lives out of poverty.

[ramana]

^^^^

POINT #1

The MoD note says that a decision to change the altitude requirements of the chopper - a key factor according to the Italian probe - was taken at a meeting on November 19, 2003 by then National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra to avoid a single-vendor situation and to expand the search for a new chopper.

POINT #2

It says that the actual changes in the qualitative requirements were carried out between March 2005 and September 2006, after discussions between various stakeholders.


POINT#3

"Operational requirements were deliberated at length between IAF, NSA, SPG/PMO and MoD between March 2005 to September 2006 and the above indicated changes (as suggested by Mishra in 2003) were incorporated (sic)," the note says.

{Note new players are being introduced in 3/05 to 09/06! Who was the NSA then? Cant be B Mishra}


POINT#4

Tyagi had also said on Wednesday that the requirements were changed in 2003 on the directions of Mishra. But he had also said that no changes were made when he headed the force from 2004 to 2007.


{The scam is not requirements change but technical evaluation to get the Augusta win the competetion.}


The MoD note does not explain the two-year gap between the time the changes were agreed upon when the NDA was in power and their actual implementation. It says the Acceptance of Necessity (AON) - a formal document authorizing the purchase - was given in January 2006.

{ Tyagi is incorrect. If the AON was issued in Jan 2006 he was definetly in charge.}

The Italian investigation report has said that AgustaWestland paid bribes after a middleman claimed he could fix the technical requirements to favour the entry of the helicopter manufacturer for the Rs 3,546-crore contract.

{See my earlier comment in italics about the nature of the scam. Its not the height requirement but everything else to get them the job.}



POINT#5

In his confession statement to Italian prosecutors, the Swiss-based middleman Guido Haschke has said that when he first arranged a meeting between Finmeccanica officials and Tyagi in early 2005, the specifications for the deal required the helicopter to be capable of flying at an altitude of 18,000 ft.

Haschke has also said that the first time he met Finmeccanica CEO Giuseppe Orsi in 2005, the changes had not been done. "The first meeting with Orsi (Spring 2005) happened when the operational ceiling had not yet been lowered. This is what I can remember today," Haschke has said.

{This is correct as the AON was not issued formally. The ceiling reqirement was changed only informally. Not formally}

POINT#6

He also claims that over the next few months, he met Tyagi several times and the then Air Chief told him in one of these meetings that the requirements for the chopper were being lowered soon.


{So what Tyagi did was push for the previously changed requirements to be formalized in the AON of Jan 2006. Now did he do this on his own or did he do it for the Italians?}


"Tyagi informed us that the operational ceiling would be lowered. Carlo and I thanked him for coming to the office. The meeting was very short. I don't remember exactly if the operational ceiling was lowered before or after summer 2005," the middleman has said.

POINT #7


Haschke has also spoken of another meeting in 2006, when he says the requirements had been relaxed. "During this meeting we spoke about the technical specifications of the AW101 helicopters. The operational ceiling had already been lowered," he has said.

{Here the meeting is to see how the Augusta gets to win. Hence the talk is about specifications.}

POINT#8

According to the Italian investigation report, the middlemen were first paid by Finmeccanica in 2005 to try and get the specifications changed and regular payoffs in the form of phoney engineering contracts started from 2007 and continued at least until 2011.

{i]{QED. The payments are during and after his tenure. SK Tyagi is involved.}[/i]