MRCA News and Discussion

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 May 2009 03:46

afaik, the most dangerous technology that we are to attempt first time in MCA would be internal weapons bay. lotsa testing time needs to planned for that.. perhaps, we could phase that technology aspects in earlier prototypes, if need be a modified LCA would be enough.

Stealth technology and shapes are the newer technology aspects that needs a bigger budget here. I am not aware of the statuses of various research happened here in IITs and other DRDO labs for this to take off. I did read some where we are into MEMS/nano tech based radar absorptions technologies.

proper funding is required for netcentric approach, requiremetns analysis and lotsa stakeholder inputs from IAF. An integrated approach is required to have perhaps few LCA prototypes for this as well.

AESA radar is important.. which I am sure we are half way there already with LCA's Elta links. I hope, we come out success soon on that front.

The ADA labs could start off on the CFD wind tunnel experiments for various algos and simulations on the models.. can start off ahead.

Engines of LCA is important for MCA. Kaveri-X? status is really important. More budget required to suppor Kaveri program. If management and organization needs change, so be it. This puppy is really the crux of MCA (can't hear this K word in the ddm sense after 10 years now.. may be our kids could inherit better history here).

Rest is all we have already established for LCA.

Jai Ho to MCA.. if the news is confirmed.. its time for MCA thread #1 at BR.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 May 2009 04:15

I suggest we take further MCA related discussions to Indian Military aviation thread. Unless, of course, the mods feel it is time to create an MCA thread (which I personally believe is too soon considering the dearth of information).

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 May 2009 04:31

Frankly speaking, all this talk of the MCA involving F-22-like technologies is somewhat premature. Much of that stuff is still in the drawing boards in the best case scenario and in the minds of people at the moment. As such, the entire talk seems to be another of the cases where the designers are promising more than what they can realistically deliver.

IMHO the step forward should be to get a twin engined fighter along the lines of the F-18 etc in the air. Learn how to build fighters of that class before calling for F-22 comparisons. Design aircraft with long range and endurance. Designing the Lightweight and low endurance LCA by no means clears you off to design stealth fighters without doing the above. Its all about taking small steps. Problem is, people talking to the media are getting ahead of themselves.

Also, apart from the article mentioning a one-liner about the MCA committee being set up shortly, what other information exists to warrant a new thread?

I say we return to the MRCA stuff rather than continuing to speculate into infinity...

Consider this on a lighter note:
From the article:

But the MCA will; it will incorporate the technologies of the future, which currently feature only on the US Air Force’s F-22 Raptor

Doesn't that itself make the technology as the "technology of today" and in 2015-17 period: "the technology of the past"?

-Vivek

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 03 May 2009 05:15

It's just a institutional and political battle for budget money. Can we please go back to MRCA discussions?

Field trials should start soon...

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 04 May 2009 00:06

Doesn't that itself make the technology as the "technology of today" and in 2015-17 period: "the technology of the past"?

Couldn't agree more with you Vivek.....

It's too early for anything on the MCA than just fantasies. Also it shows that people in Indian institutes have a mindset that USA should always lead and we have to follow that with a difference of a decade or more. It's sad that we are not able to think in terms of counter tech or a newer desi one . It's never the problem of lack of potential just the sheep flock attitude....

Let's continue with the MRCA (it's more vital at present) ,until we have something solid on MCA...

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 04 May 2009 00:53

dorai wrote:It's just a institutional and political battle for budget money. Can we please go back to MRCA discussions?

Field trials should start soon...

Speaking of field trials, I'm sure I read somewhere that they should have begun in April. Was that just a DDM guess or are falling behind schedule again?

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 04 May 2009 02:01

sam_kamath wrote:If you have a leader who can stand up to that small percentage of people and say yes there will be mistakes i take responsibility then you have a leader who can do it for Indians..
if only we had one

Oh we have one in Gujarat alright, now if only the PeeSec's and the dhimmies would see the light!

although off topic, i see a lot of consensus on above but when it comes to vote somehow it all fizzles out: Delhi, Mumbai, etc..

LokeshP · Post by **LokeshP** » 04 May 2009 02:13

SivaVijay wrote:
Doesn't that itself make the technology as the "technology of today" and in 2015-17 period: "the technology of the past"?

Couldn't agree more with you Vivek.....

It's too early for anything on the MCA than just fantasies. Also it shows that people in Indian institutes have a mindset that USA should always lead and we have to follow that with a difference of a decade or more. It's sad that we are not able to think in terms of counter tech or a newer desi one . It's never the problem of lack of potential just the sheep flock attitude....

Let's continue with the MRCA (it's more vital at present) ,until we have something solid on MCA...

realistically speaking, only the leader is the non-sheep. rest everyone else is the sheep. once the leader (USA) defines what is the next generation tech and goes about realizing that tech and applications, rest everyone follows (Russia, UK, France, Germany, Japan, etc etc). India is no different in this from any other countries.

once the leader in a field defines what is "Advanced", what is "next-gen" and achieves it well before anybody else is even thinking on those lines, it has effectively ensured that everyone else flocks to investigate this tech b/c nobody knows how to counter it and balance of power demands that this new tech be realized or face the threat of obsolete tech.

of course each country goes about it in a different way, but overall, once the Leader sets the strategic objectives (Stealth as 5th-Gen), the only thing that is controlled by the flockers (everybody else) is the tactical details of how they go about achieving the strategic objective (which has actually been defined by the Leader).

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 04 May 2009 10:51

Is this the MRCA or the Mera Rajya ka Chor aur Neta thread??

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 May 2009 17:52

"5-6000 crores" for a few MCA prototypes.If you believe that ,then we are all fairies! The engine,a million times repeated,has been the achillies heel of all Indian desi aircraft programmes.Every aircraft and helo is flying with a foreign engine.If the ADA boffins imagine that the MCA will fly with a desi engine,then they should be sent to the nearest loony bin,as Tejas has yet to find a more powerful engine for the Mk-2 version! The decision to go ahead with the MCA when even the LCA has yet to mature is an act of acute imbecility.It is babudom wanting a huge chunk of the budget to spend upon a programme that will be academic,with no clear timeframe indicated.The project can spin itself,morphing into never before imagined of technologies a few decades down the line,getting more sophisticated as the years go by,producing nothing!

The MOD and IAF should have clear goals spelt out.The most important project is the 5th-gen fighter,which will supposedly give us an aircraft in the F-22/F-35 JSF class technologically,at a far lesser cost.This aircraft is supposed to be the backbone of the IAF from 2015+ onwards,with the first Russian version supposedly to fly later this year,as scheduled.Production is supposed to start by 2015.What chance that the MCA emerges before the 5th-gen fighter? One must be the most optimistic joker on the planet is one believes that the MCA (going by the LCA timeframe) will see the light of day before 2010.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 05 May 2009 17:53

LokeshP wrote:
realistically speaking, only the leader is the non-sheep. rest everyone else is the sheep. once the leader (USA) defines what is the next generation tech and goes about realizing that tech and applications, rest everyone follows (Russia, UK, France, Germany, Japan, etc etc). India is no different in this from any other countries.

once the leader in a field defines what is "Advanced", what is "next-gen" and achieves it well before anybody else is even thinking on those lines, it has effectively ensured that everyone else flocks to investigate this tech b/c nobody knows how to counter it and balance of power demands that this new tech be realized or face the threat of obsolete tech.

of course each country goes about it in a different way, but overall, once the Leader sets the strategic objectives (Stealth as 5th-Gen), the only thing that is controlled by the flockers (everybody else) is the tactical details of how they go about achieving the strategic objective (which has actually been defined by the Leader).

Couldn't agree more with you on this...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 May 2009 18:01

if we are not talking MCA, then stealth, new technology and leadership discussion to an extent becomes OT to MMRCA! (assumption: meaning not part of the RFPs) correct? there is this requirement driven angle that we have to relate MCA and LCA here, 'cause it can bring down MRCA numbers drastically if we have the home grown platform to support our IAF.

btw, facts are facts.. and so is history. can't blame the succeeding forces for what they have done. you want to create one, just do it rather whine (if this would be another angle to look at?).

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 05 May 2009 18:04

Some Guy with name harry krish wrote this comments on Rediff news item,Apologies if its not right to post it this way,but this could shed some light on how GTRE works,Pathetic

.
India sets sight on futuristic fighter aircraft

Two years back I younger brother joined in GTRE ( Gas and Turbine Research Establishment) organization as an contract worker. From the day one of his maiden service at GTRE I heard from him how the India’s dream of desi war heads were playing in the hands of unskilled workers called themselves or by GTRE as scientists.
1. Everyday they waste enormous amount precious imported raw materials in the name of Research and experiments - all at the cost of tax payers money like you..
2. Ego among the staffs at low level scientists (?) consumes government provided resources to an great extent..
3. It’s like our government paying them for their time pass doing nothing inside GTRE..
4. Thousands of liters of fuel poured in waste bin unnecessarily in the name of (negligence) experiments..
5. Going to Russia for the technology sharing or training is based on the conduct of the staff and how he treats his superior..
6. Even going to Visakapattinam on duty is based on the conduct of one particular staff..
I came to know that one staff is not willing to go to DRDO at Visakapattinam as it is too humid there, so another staff was arranged to go by flight just to irritate the former staff again at the cost of our money..
Overall I have learnt through my brother that they waste corers of our money doing nothing.. Not even single Aircraft engine come out of their lab till date. At this level of their proficiency we will never be able to produce high profile defense equipmen

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 05 May 2009 19:56

Got to agree with Philip here .... seems to me we have to iron out the kinks with the "Kaveri-2 strategy". Everything could become ghas-phoos without this critical component. I just hope the IAF gets more involved and doesn't continue its hit-and-run

attitude with regard to gtre/kaveri. I mean you can't just say that the engine doesn't meet ASR and keep quiet ... IAF really needs some "Glucon-D"

to synergize with the gtre/hal folks. The MRCA will be one mean machine

.... so there is going to be time for the LCA story to reach an elegant FOC.

Also, I don't understand why Rafale's competency is being questioned. Pure politics .... babudom ?? (I'm weak in BR slang.). We will whack some serious firepower if we decide to go with Rafale and the A330 MRTT.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 07 May 2009 16:36

x-post from Resources thread

NRao wrote:XPosting johnny_m:

Gripen NG AESA has new revolutionary design offering wider field of view.

Advanced mission capabilities provided with the Gripen NG AESA Radar
http://www.gripen.com/NR/rdonlyres/8E65 ... _Radar.pdf

X-post from Keypub forums. Posted by signatory

These links show the advantages of such an assembly as normal fixed AESA radars have a narrower field of view.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... a6c47c0879

http://www2.theiet.org/oncomms/pn/radar/Roulston.pdf

negi wrote:
k prasad wrote:Very interesting NRao... would be interesting to see how much noise level they get out of it, and how they are countering the increased noise level that comes with the rotary joints and other stuff that comes with a swashplate solution....
^ Hain... what has a swashplate got to do with signal noise ? and afaik moving swashplate will not affect the TR module performance (i.e. if you are referring to the noise generated by mech movt. ). However obviously moving components mean increased complexity,maintainance issues and cost.

Swashplate means that there needs to be a interface between the rotating head and the processors to transfer the signal - this requires rotary joints and other interfaces - any such interface leads to a definite loss of power/gain and noise addition. Hence the concern.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 May 2009 19:15

One point for chewing the cud,why Oz is buying 100+ JSF's instead of the latest (final) avatar of the F-18? This decision should be analysed in depth by the IAF before taking any decision on the MMRCA."Marry in haste,repent at leisure"....You get my point.Earlier posted articles from Oz defence anaylsts indicated that the current US fighters available were vastly inferior to the Flanker (MKIs) and even the JSF with its latest tech.would find it difficult to cope with the Flankers.However,this is the best aircraft that Oz can acquire (from the US,the Raptor being too expensive and not on offer)and being a US lackey,it will not buy European.

Notwithstanding the recent tragic crash of an Su-30MKI,the aircraft has had 12 safe years in service and more advanced versions of the aircraft should be considered to make up numbers instead of buying an inferior MMRCA at high cost.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 07 May 2009 22:39

Notwithstanding the recent tragic crash of an Su-30MKI,the aircraft has had 12 safe years in service and more advanced versions of the aircraft should be considered to make up numbers instead of buying an inferior MMRCA at high cost.

Inferior ? I am sorry the Eurofighter and Rafale are equal or better than the MKI.

Australian defense project is meant for 2030. They were not planning to buy any more Super Hornets than the 24 ordered as a stop gap between the F 111 retirement and F 35 induction.

I would say go with the Gripen and get SAAB partnership for MCA. Or buy F 16 and get JSF.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 08 May 2009 05:43

BAE says talks continue on£2bn Eurofighter contract

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 08 May 2009 13:48

johnny_m wrote:
Notwithstanding the recent tragic crash of an Su-30MKI,the aircraft has had 12 safe years in service and more advanced versions of the aircraft should be considered to make up numbers instead of buying an inferior MMRCA at high cost.
Inferior ? I am sorry the Eurofighter and Rafale are equal or better than the MKI.

Australian defense project is meant for 2030. They were not planning to buy any more Super Hornets than the 24 ordered as a stop gap between the F 111 retirement and F 35 induction.

I would say go with the Gripen and get SAAB partnership for MCA. Or buy F 16 and get JSF.

I would personally prefer a combination of Rafale and MiG35's... As they are both manufactured by countries friendly to our situation since ages... and they would not leave us to the wolves like america would do... that's my personal opinion...

prabir · Post by **prabir** » 08 May 2009 18:08

Don't buy anything from US and Britain. These people can do anything.
Best bet is French because for the right price, they are very reliable in sharing the technology

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 May 2009 18:21

prabir wrote:Don't buy anything from US and Britain. These people can do anything.
Best bet is French because for the right price, they are very reliable in sharing the technology

Didn't the French just get tossed out because they declined to share some technical info?

And, the US (LM) just stated that they can provide F-35 ToT (understandably not everything)?

What is this world coming to?

I think all this is in the hands of the Jihadis approaching Isloo. The closer they get the more techs India can get.

JMT tho'

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 May 2009 14:12

Robert Gates' drastic weilding of the sword in the US'd defence budget is worth taking a hard look at.Apart from curtailing production of the F-22,he has planned that there will be a large increase in UCAVs in the USAF's onventory.As many have predicted,UCAVs,with their stealth features,long enduranc,high altitude and absence of a pilot who could be shot down,has become the preferred method of attack in the latest conflicts .The latest Predator-3 design is now out,far stealthier than its earlier types and will be the key weapon system for the USAF in the future.The IAF should also review its future plans and inventory,to include a significant number of UCAVs,as apart from the advantages mentioned,unmanned aircraft should come cheaper.

If the MMRCA decision is going to be delayed and a hung parliament will inevitably delay crucial defence decisions,especially if the Left (with their anti-US stance) have a say in the matter,international developments will certainly lead to a reassessment by the IAF,which could affect the numbers of MMRCA bought,particularly if the LCA MK-2 arrives perfected on time.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 09 May 2009 21:50

Boeing upbeat on prospects for F/A-18 fighter sales

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 10 May 2009 10:47

My Dear Philip,

The Gates' proposals are getting a lot of stick within the United States. I am sure many of his proposals will be cut down by the congress. I expect to see more F 22s in service.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 May 2009 13:48

johnny_m wrote:My Dear Philip,

The Gates' proposals are getting a lot of stick within the United States. I am sure many of his proposals will be cut down by the congress. I expect to see more F 22s in service.

Looking at the state of their economy , Mr Gates may have his way.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 May 2009 23:32

In trillions of dollars of deficit, what is another few billions? The economy is not driving these cuts - the economy will also revive.

Gates has decided that Uncle will fight, but how they fight is going to be different. Predators, for instance, are taking center stage.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 May 2009 13:50

Yes Rao,using UCAvs appears to dramatically reduce the "criticism" factor in the on-going conflicts,when compared to regular attacks by manned fighters.The key factor of having no loss of pilot if the drone is shot down,and the "hostage publicity" that accompanies such an event,is why US planners want more.Predator-3,which has even better stealth features and longer endurance,is going to be the key weapon of the next decade.We too will soon find the virtues of acquiring and employing such UCAVs,especially as the long ranges and endurance required for patrolling the vast IOR is a critical factor in LRMP ops.Crew fatigue becomes a limiting factor in manned aircraft.With the USN soon to begin UCAV trials from its carriers,a new RMA is around the corner.

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 11 May 2009 21:18

Hi guys, some news about Rafale lacks: I've read in a french specialised (but fast on not-always-so-true rumours) mag (air&cosmos) that the main cause of Rafale's eviction from MMRCA is its lack of anti-radar weaponry, a weakness it shares with (oh everything becomes clearer) gripen... (OTOH, I haven't heard of this kind of missile being integrated on eurofighter either)

Again according to the mag, talks are being held "at a very high level" to put it back on the run.

Stay tuned

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 May 2009 21:21

Philip Sir,

That is old thinking, altho' inclusive.

UAVs + missiles with small "foot prints" (low co-damage) + networking (huge contribution here) + intel gathering is a component that is meant to be independent of piloted ACs (which still have a vital role). Just that with tech advancement the roles are better defined.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 12 May 2009 01:04

Jean_M

The A&C report sounds like another false media report. Only F-16 and Super Hornet has anti-radiation missiles integrated today and I can't possibly see any reason why this would eliminate a whole aircraft platform in the race. No EF and MIG-35 do not have ARM either, MIG-35 has a new digital interface like Gripen, EF and Rafale so old analogue MIG-29 integration work is irrelevant.

mgill · Post by **mgill** » 12 May 2009 01:19

Guys haven't heard an update for the MRCA for a while since Rafael was taken out then they cam back sayin they were not out the competition yet Have you heard anything????

One the really annoys me is the fact that i read an article on http://fighter-planes.ath.cx
about USA Navy retiring the Hornet to make way for the F-35 but this is being offered to India???

and to Mods - hope I am posting the correctly or do i need to start a new thread???

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 May 2009 01:49

mgill,

That seems to be the only URL (and one paki that cut-paste the same report) that is reporting the phase out of the F-18. With the F-18G coming out I find it very hard to believe that the F-18 will be phased out in the next 10 years or more.

Even IF it is, why should that bother India. No matter which AC India buys India will be one of the largest operators of that AC in the world (MiG-35 the ONLY one and largest, Grippen the largest, EF the largest(?), Rafale top two, F-16 top two(?), F-18 top two). So, what is your fear?

BTW, LCA - the ONLY one. Su-30 MKI the ONLY one. PAK-FA/FGFA the ONLY one.

Leading edge means going it alone. High risks.

mgill · Post by **mgill** » 12 May 2009 02:27

NRao wrote:mgill,

That seems to be the only URL (and one paki that cut-paste the same report) that is reporting the phase out of the F-18. With the F-18G coming out I find it very hard to believe that the F-18 will be phased out in the next 10 years or more.

Even IF it is, why should that bother India. No matter which AC India buys India will be one of the largest operators of that AC in the world (MiG-35 the ONLY one and largest, Grippen the largest, EF the largest(?), Rafale top two, F-16 top two(?), F-18 top two). So, what is your fear?

BTW, LCA - the ONLY one. Su-30 MKI the ONLY one. PAK-FA/FGFA the ONLY one.

Leading edge means going it alone. High risks.

Thanks for the reply NRao

but aren't the export version inferior to the ones used by the national air force?

And the MIG-35 Will only be the only one until Russia mass sells them to third world countries lol

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 12 May 2009 02:36

^^ Depends. F-16IN is even better than the latest Block-60 F-16s. Su-30MKI was, at the time of export, better than any Su-30 operated by Russians. Even today, only Su-35bm can be said to be better than MKI and even that is only in few nos. Grippen NG is much better than the current Grippens operated by Sweden. Same goes with Mig-35.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 12 May 2009 02:39

F35/22 are developed such ,to be used to arm the usaf to the fullest , and therefore f18/16/15 will be phased out for ever,within a decade,or keeping a few samples alive, but a whole new generation is in queue.
As I have already said in one of my earlier posts that
the obvious is that those air crafts that will be sold to India will be made of cannibalized parts ,except for the few upgrades done for f18 block E/F, there will be nothing new, and LM/boeing will be happy to transfer the tot to upto 90%.,instead of keeping those aircrafts on some desert,they will be happy to sell this scrap.
this is where corruption is lying hidden.
What the babus/politicians have to do is to reject others
Only rafale, and now eurofghter could have ensured such thing doesnt happens.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 12 May 2009 02:50

Samay wrote:F35/22 are developed such ,to be used to arm the usaf to the fullest , and therefore f18/16/15 will be phased out for ever,within a decade,or keeping a few samples alive, but a whole new generation is in queue.
As I have already said in one of my earlier posts that
the obvious is that those air crafts that will be sold to India will be made of cannibalized parts ,except for the few upgrades done for f18 block E/F, there will be nothing new, and LM/boeing will be happy to transfer the tot to upto 90%.,instead of keeping those aircrafts on some desert,they will be happy to sell this scrap.
this is where corruption is lying hidden.
What the babus/politicians have to do is to reject others
Only rafale, and now eurofghter could have ensured such thing doesnt happens.

Not necessarily. Even the U.S can't spend such huge amounts of money to replace all of its F-16s, F-15s and F-18s with the expensive F-22 & F-35. The F/A-18s for the Navy were inducted from 1999 and they were supposed to be in service until the 2020s or 2030s. There is little possibility of retiring these aircraft within the next decade. Yes! The production of F/A-18s could be capped in favour of F-35 but I don't see that affecting the availability of spare parts for the aircraft.

mgill · Post by **mgill** » 12 May 2009 02:58

KrishG wrote:
Samay wrote:F35/22 are developed such ,to be used to arm the usaf to the fullest , and therefore f18/16/15 will be phased out for ever,within a decade,or keeping a few samples alive, but a whole new generation is in queue.
As I have already said in one of my earlier posts that
the obvious is that those air crafts that will be sold to India will be made of cannibalized parts ,except for the few upgrades done for f18 block E/F, there will be nothing new, and LM/boeing will be happy to transfer the tot to upto 90%.,instead of keeping those aircrafts on some desert,they will be happy to sell this scrap.
this is where corruption is lying hidden.
What the babus/politicians have to do is to reject others
Only rafale, and now eurofghter could have ensured such thing doesnt happens.
Not necessarily. Even the U.S can't spend such huge amounts of money to replace all of its F-16s, F-15s and F-18s with the expensive F-22 & F-35. The F/A-18s for the Navy were inducted from 1999 and they were supposed to be in service until the 2020s or 2030s. There is little possibility of retiring these aircraft within the next decade. Yes! The production of F/A-18s could be capped in favour of F-35 but I don't see that affecting the availability of spare parts for the aircraft.

I have heard that the F-35 is going to replace the F-18 sooner as this was on the news evan though the f-35 has not been full tested

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 12 May 2009 03:08

^^ It would make sense. But not because F-18 is inferior to F-15 & F-16, but because both F-18 and F-35 are primarily strike fighters. Also US Navy only has F-18 as fighter. So its replacement could only be done with F-35.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 May 2009 05:08

I have heard that the F-35 is going to replace the F-18 sooner as this was on the news evan though the f-35 has not been full tested

Do I smell a troll here?

For the last time. "I have heard" - seems to be one web site. No where have I found a Gates type saying that - if there is please provide a URL for my sanity. And, TIA.

F-35s are supposed to replace F-16s too and three more air crafts. But, that does not mean that in 2015 when the F-35 is expected to be operational that the USN/USAF would pack all F-18/F-16 and replace them. They cannot. IF at all they will be replaced by about 2025 or even 2030. F-18 IIRC are supposed to fly into the 2040s and if you google you will find Boeing being confident to sell more F-18s.

Why is that so difficult to understand. Thus the conclusion - troll.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 12 May 2009 11:20

mgill, I recommend that you spend some more time reading before you are able to articulate your point of view in a more coherent manner. Currently, you are coming across as someone who has done no research before posting, and in a flavour of English which most postors here are unfamiliar with.