Subnationalism in TSP is the golden fantasmagoria goose that never lays its golden eggs. I was beginning to think that we were getting realistic after fiercely deriding fantasizing or more accurately the individuals who appeared to be fantasizing by our individual criteria. Is it too much reality and practice that blinds us to looking beyond that practical experiential horizon
. For example two recognized separate nations of the two Germany's became "one", and Russia could ensure "breakaway republics" in CAR.
Soon after independence, the leaders of the five former Soviet Central Asian Republics, namely, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan., met in Tashkent and declared that the definition of Central Asia should include Kazakhstan as well as the original four included by the Soviets. Since then, this has become the most common definition of Central Asia Republics. Therefore, one wondered where Russia played a role in breaking them away.
However, if it was meant that it means Abkhazia and Ossetia, then it was not clear since they are not CAR as understood by the world community! But then confusing and open ended statements are the prerogative of some!
Two recognised nations i.e. The Germanys became one not because of any violation of the UN charter. They were united because the USSR had collapsed and it lost its hold over the Warsaw Pact and other factors that led to the reunification of the Germanys. No one invaded anyone.
As far as Abkhazia and Ossetia is concerned if that is what is meant by breakaway republics in CAR, In 1810 Abkhazia voluntarily joined the Russian Empire as a self-governing principality separately from Georgia.
Following the wars in the Caucasus in the second half of the 19th century, some indigenous people left Abkhazia, and its territory became an attractive ground for Georgia's expansion. Georgia's nationalistic circles intensified their activities to establish control over Abkhazia after the break-up of the Russian Empire. In May 1918, the newly established Georgian Democratic Republic, supported by German troops, occupied and annexed Abkhazia.
On 31 March 1921, following the establishment of the Soviet rule, the Soviet Socialist Republic of Abkhazia was proclaimed. Two months later, the new authorities of Georgia recognized its independence.
The Soviet Socialist Republic (SSR) of Abkhazia took part in the establishment of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a sovereign state, and its representative signed the Treaty on the Establishment of the USSR in December 1922.
The fact that the Abkhazians were not Georgian, subnationalism came into play and they broke away. Russian assistance? Maybe.
No violation of UN charter there. Or is there?
If it is to be believed that Russia assisted in the breakaway through covert means without going to war or armed intervention, then it surely indicates that the same can be achieved in Pakistan without going to war or tinkering with theology.
In so far as Ossetia is concerned, in 1774, the Ossetian people with all their lands voluntarily became subjects of the Russian Empire, and in 1843 an Ossetian district of the Tiflis province (gubernia) was established in the southern part of Ossetia, which formed part of the administrative and territorial system of Russia.
Following the break-up of the Russian Empire in 1917, Georgia's leadership made an attempt to annex the southern part of Ossetia by force, in response to its willingness to stay within Russia.
Following the establishment of the USSR, South Ossetia was made part of Georgia as the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast, while North Ossetia was made part of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic.
Under the Georgian rule after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the minorities like the Ossetes and Abkhazs were harassed leading to the rise of subnationalism. Russia may have nudged.
In both cases, the rise of subnationalism resulted in the breakaway and without armed intervention or war.
Therefore, it is hardly ‘ideological limitation of "idealism and dreaming" that pins all its hopes on subnationalism and the implosion of TSP’ and by the way, all hopes are not pinned. Just another input.
Those who think this way, perhaps do not realize that it is also another blind ideological and idealistic commitment not to see the problem in the ideology of Islam, and its implementation in Islamic theologians.
One wonders how focusing on Islam can dismantle a Nation state!!
Winning a limited objective war in Kashmir only, is not going to encourage subnational conflicts and breakdown of TSP. It will provide the grand excuse for Islamic consolidation and Islamic "nationalism".
Is it being suggested that there can be a full scale war to capture POK?
Subnationalism is to be promoted even without the issue of Kashmir being taken into consideration. It is a fallacy to feel that encouraging subnationalism covertly will coalesce the Pakistanis and Islamic nationalism will burst forth. The example of the Kurds, both in Iraq and Turkey who are also Moslem and majority are Sunni Moslems should be a reminder that ‘Islamic nationalism’ has not stood in the way of demanding a separate Kurdish country called Kurdistan. Pakhtoonistan demand is another example. Therefore subnationalism is surely not idealism or dreaming.
Why rule out the possibility of "mergers" with India in the future helped along by military action? It is either India looks forward and merges the rest of TSP with itself, to eliminate one of its two persistent neighbourly threats, or TSP gradually Islamizes and Jihadizes the North of India, subverting and expanding slowly east and south. Maybe some are too commited to seeing "good" in Islamic theology and everything evil and despised in pre-Islamic culture of India, and much too deeply identifying themselves with the regime essentially in control of India since being blessed with the transfer of power by the British, who cannot think otherwise. But others who have no obvious reason to be solely ideologically committed to the post-Independence Congress, can think of and prepare for alternative possibilities for the future of India.
The answer is simple and it requires no rocket science. It will upset the demographic balance of India. As it is the ‘Bhartiyas’ are upset of Islam in this country and vociferously advocate Hinduvta, one wonders what will be the reaction of the Bharatiyas and Hinduvta lot; it could be explosive. Thus, it would be a case of cutting the nose to spite the face. In fact, the issue of merger is a tad too imperialistic and colonialist and which will make a mockery of the ire against British imperialism and colonialism in India.
Seeing ‘good’ instead of seeing ‘evil’ and fighting windmills like Don Quixote is hardly the way forward. Hating a religion is hardly the way to unite a country. If Islam is evil and Hinduism is perfect, then how is it that even though Hinduism is the Mother religion of this country, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj etc sprouted? Obviously, one would not abandon something good, or would they? Therefore, focusing on Islam alone is not the answer that will conjure the demise of Pakistan.
I do not think the current GOI is so stupid that it believes in its own propaganda. It knows that it is practically losing the political battle over Kashmir. Only tactic left will be to gradually get the public used to the idea of conceding more to the demands of Islamization, and greater access to TSP influence in the valley through "normalization and engagement". It is also not impossible that alternatives have already been placed before the GOI that considers giving up claims/controls over Kashmir in a phased and innocuous manner. The political costs however could not be calculated beforehand, which points to origin iof these ideas outside of India. If we see increasing media campaigns in highlighting the costs of the defence of LOC, of the need for "altruistic concessions", the need to bolster TSP civilian gov, the inherent "goodness" of Islam, the need to "leave the past behind", etc., that will be a confirmation of GOI secret commitments.
Am I to understand that you are suggesting that the GOI is disloyal and treacherous to India?
Members who have said less anti national things have been banned. I will not initiate a motion on this issue since we are debating, but then you should carefully choose your words!! It is disturbing to read such canard and anti national statements.
I am with you that the demands of Islamisation should not be encouraged and thank you for bringing the Sharia bill to my notice. I was not aware of this. In fact, the Kashmir Valley was ipso facto a Sharia area. Activities like the Muta marriage are prevalent and so on. Is this law applicable to the other communities too? I learn it is a watered down law compared to Pakistan and elsewhere.
I am totally for an India that is beyond the narrow confines of religion.
Constitution of USSR/Russia at breakup!!! But isn't Russia a signatory to the UN charter, as a result of recognition of being the legal successor to the USSR (hence the seat in the Security Council)? So there can be special "things" in individual nations, which allows them to bypass UN charter as and when required? German psyche!!! So psyche can over-rule UN charter too! Good one! Constant shifting of goal-posts tactics again!
Constitution of USSR/Russia at breakup!!! But isn't Russia a signatory to the UN charter, as a result of recognition of being the legal successor to the USSR (hence the seat in the Security Council)? So there can be special "things" in individual nations, which allows them to bypass UN charter as and when required? German psyche!!! So psyche can over-rule UN charter too! Good one! Constant shifting of goal-posts tactics again!
Indeed, if one understands the German psyche, one would understand that the Potsdam Agreement consequent to the Yalta Discussions was an artificial divide forced on Germany by the conquering powers. One may like to read the book – The rise and fall of the German Democratic Republic by Feiwel Kupferberg and the rationale of the current rise of the radical right in Germany.
Notwithstanding, no UN charter was violated when Germany unified as explained earlier! Therefore, the issue of changing goalposts is a pathetic and lame obfuscation to hoodwink!
The Kashmiri people want ‘azadi’ (freedom) from the Union of India, Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has said.
In an interview with the strategic journal, Force, Abdullah said he would facilitate engagement between New Delhi and the ‘azadi’ sentiment. However, he added that people wanted freedom from New Delhi, not him or Ghulam Nabi Azad or Mufti Muhammad Sayed
Kashmir wants Azadi? Indeed, there are those who feel so, but that is not the popular sentiment. It is western media generated and made popular. If Azadi was such a huge clamour, then why should they have voted, when there was the boycott call? And why should Sajid Lone contest? You sound like Ashok Mitra, who thinks he is an intellectual, and who feels India is ‘occupying’ Kashmir!! Maybe you could give the link to the Force magazine so that we could analyse that also!
Regarding Shia Sultanates in India, I am sure such an august intelligence and knowledge must have come across the Bijapuri Sultanate history at some stage. Technically speaking even the early Mughals following on from Humayun were Shias.
True.
However, he became a Sunni, much the same way that Jinnah became one. Therefore, should we say that Pakistan is a Shia state? Logic! Everyone in India, well almost all, was Hindus (or that PC word Sanatan Dharma or whatever). Is India a Hindu State? Intelligence is mutually lacking and none should ride the high horse!!
A soldier taking inspiration and quoting from someone who had abhorred war and the military machine all his life is really heartening.
It is only who has seen death and destruction can really fathom the anguish, grief and sorrow. Armchair self assumed intellectuals in air-conditioned comfort in foreign lands cannot!!
Further I do not address anyone here as "old chap", "darling" "sweetheart", but I always use honorifics as is standard with Bharatyia culture. RayCji, I am neither your friend, relative, or under your "command". Do stick to my nom-de-BRF only.
Will do.
But cut out all this ‘ji’ jazz! No need to soft soap. I am an Indian. Bhartiya and Hinduvta pizzazz can be avoided. Culture is not the prerogative of any religion. It is natural, but it should not ooze with falsehood!
Since Ramana says you are a Bengali, there is a saying – Oti Bhokti ****** lokhon! Nothing personal, just a Bengali saying and I did not invent Bengali!
Catch me being your friend, relative or under my command!!
I want to have a life!!!!!!
Thank you.
I may not agree with you, but I appreciate your views and you inputs like that on the Sharia in Kashmir. I am surprised how that missed me and I am furious with this vote bank politics!
One must read Shah Gaffor the Sufi Saint!