India-China News and Discussion

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby ashkrishna » 19 Nov 2009 13:20

D Roy wrote:And this is why all the bullshit rhetoric about teaching India a lesson etc.


I would like to know how they're gonna do that. As per the opinion of a few people here, Indians never learn! 8)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 19 Nov 2009 13:52

Heard this from a prc student,
The PRC govt is rich, really really rich, but the people are poor, really really poor.

There goes the toilet paper called communism.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Avinash R » 19 Nov 2009 14:05

ULFA admits it is using China as a base
...
ULFA 'foreign secretary' Sasha Choudhury and 'finance secretary' Chitraban Hazarika, now in police remand since Nov 6, told interrogations that apart from Bangladesh they have bases in China and other foreign countries.

'Crores of rupees have been extorted from (Assam) and transferred to (ULFA) leaders in Bangladesh, China and other countries where they have established hideouts,' the Special Operations Unit (SOU) of Assam Police quoted the two leaders as confessing.
...

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby anirban_aim » 19 Nov 2009 18:23

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/nov/19/slide-show-1-china-on-buying-spree.htm

Almost everyday we find a Chinese company announcing to buy a portion in some foreign company.


At the time when recession was at its peak (economists indicate that it is on the wane now), and the US dollar was getting weaker, China's state-owned fund -- China Investment Corp Ltd -- injected $5 billion into global merchant banker Morgan Stanley.

Also, Citic Securities, a private Chinese firm, invested $1 billion in New York-based global investment bank Bear Stearns.



The Australian foreign investment review board has recently announced that no foreign company would be allowed to hold more than a 15 per cent stake in any of the country's natural resources companies.


China unveiled a $200-billion wealth fund in September 2007 to buy into the foreign financial sector. As a start, the fund invested $3 billion in Blackstone Group, an American private equity firm.



In May 2009, The China Development Bank loaned $10 billion to Petroleo Brasileiro SA, Brazil's state-controlled oil company to develop the largest crude discovery in the Americas in more than 30 years.



on October 9, 2009, General Motors announced that it had agreed to sell the marquee brand -- Hummer -- to China's Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery. Tengzhong will buy 80 per cent stake, while a private investor will hold the rest.


China is ready to take the best seat at the world's economic affairs table. Wonder who it will buy next.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Prasanth » 19 Nov 2009 20:07

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Heard this from a prc student,
The PRC govt is rich, really really rich, but the people are poor, really really poor.

There goes the toilet paper called communism.


I don't know how many times I have to explain this. Communism is an economic concept. China is a capitalist country but governed autocratically. I have to agree their government is rich and the people are poor. How poor are they? Funny thing is these poor people consume alot, travel overseas, study overseas, buy cars , buy television, cellphones, branded stuff, fridge and houses and yes very shockingly eat alot when compared to our democratic India. Can you explain this? :eek:

Do you know why I state all these facts? I want Indians to wake up! This enemy we are against are not just a bunch of drone with a stash of cash. These are 'thinking' people. They strategically plan almost every step to superpowerdom. From opening up their economy, building infrastructure, tempting the west with their markets to establish manufactuirng bases, flooding the world with cheap goods to destroy other industrial bases and hoarding $. The consequence? The whole wide world is buying Chinese and they cannot stop it. We could make better quality and cheaper stuff than the Chinese but where are we now?

Now when resources are cheapest, they are buying mines, alliances, technologies around the world with their stash and most importantly, building mega stuff. Can you imagine a year ago GE transfering their engine and avionics tech? Have you seen what they are planning for the next 10 years?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=685352

Now when everyone is out of cash, they are creating internal demand. They buy the raw materials, produce the stuff, consume and export to us.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Hari Seldon » 19 Nov 2009 20:38

Sad as I am to day this - Prashant has a point here. PRC is a juggernaut and it won't or can't stop.

Dunno who it was that said the wise words "If something grows consistently faster than the rest of the economy, it will eventually become the economy."

If prc continues its growth over the next 10 yrs the way it has grown in the last 10, we are all sooo screwed only. Oh, its a big IF though. Still, the possibility of PRC beating the odds is nonzero only. And our calling the growth cancerous doesn't quite make it so. MaoA!

Do you know why I state all these facts? I want Indians to wake up!


Sorry. Won't happen. No can do. Yindia is like that only. Another tight jhapad, loss of Arunachal, 1962 redux might wake us up perhaps. And I would count on it no more than I would count of TSP executing Sri Hafiz Saeed only. It is no coincidence that knowledgeble commentators of the likes of Sri Atanu Dey flatly assert that the Yindia-cheena race was lost even before it could really begin.

Anyway, enough negativity and D&G for today. Prasant, as you can see, your POV has prevailed. Because, you know, satyamev jayate. Now can we move on pls? Thank you, thank you.

Have a nice day and Jai Ho :D

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 20 Nov 2009 21:35


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby rajrang » 20 Nov 2009 21:52

Drag China into the Kashmir argument

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 251958.cms

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby disha » 20 Nov 2009 21:55

Prasanth wrote:Now when everyone is out of cash, they are creating internal demand. They buy the raw materials, produce the stuff, consume and export to us.


There is lot of Rona & Dhona (tm) in this thread. Of course keep a wary eye, but do not get cowered down! What is the ultimate goal? Gain world power or gain widespread development in all fields? Former is arrogance and later is a laudable goal. It might be that achieving later may help get former!

Anyway, if you think the leadership is blind (which does not seem to tbe the case!), read this post by Ramana from another thread:

If we go back to page one of this thread and re-read Shyam Saran's speech and see where we are today.

Quote:

It is my firm belief that even while we learn to cope with the more immediate impact of the on-going financial and economic crisis, we should look more closely at the manner in which the crisis may be changing, in a fundamental manner, the global geo-political landscape as well as the dominant ideologies which were accepted wisdom in most parts of our world.

Let us first look at the nature of the financial and economic crisis itself. It is a crisis that originated in the US and has now spread over the entire global economy. The Western dominance of the global financial markets and the global economy as a whole has been shaken to the core. It is possible that New York and London may no longer regain their undisputed status as the central financial markets of the world. With this has come an intellectual crisis engendering an open questioning of the western espousal of the magic of the market place, the belief in self-regulating market mechanisms and the relentless retreat of the state from virtually all key areas of economic life. These twin crises are beginning to spawn significant and far-reaching political consequences. One relates to the redistribution of political power based on real economic strength. The other relates to perceptions, which are equally important, shaking confidence in market based liberalism that has been the dominant dogma for the past two centuries and more.




causing


Quote:
U.S. is embarking on an equally unprecedented diplomatic offensive to co-opt China in its economic recovery strategy...There are increasing calls for a Sino-US global condominium, a so-called G-2, which would shape a new world order.



leading to

Quote:

China has not revealed its hand so far. It has certainly encouraged thinking in the U.S. and the West that it is the key to their economic recovery. This provides it with a significant leverage for achieving its foreign policy objectives even though on the ground it may be able or willing to do much less.



How does all this effect India?


Quote:
What are the implications for India?

For India, this is not necessarily a negative. It creates for us, other things being equal, greater strategic space. We will have more room for manoeuvre in managing our relations with a more diverse set of powers, and do so with more flexibility.

It should be our objective to encourage the trend towards a more diffused and diversified international order. This fits in well with our own instinctive preference for a multi-polar world, which includes a multi-polar Asia. We will need to work with other powers who share this objective. Our effort should be to build coalitions on different issues of shared concern and not primarily rely on a more limited range of strategic relationships.

This will imply a more energetic pursuit of our relations with countries like Russia and middle powers like Brazil, South Africa and Mexico. The European Union and, in particular, some of its individual members like France, can be useful political and economic partners.


And as we see this has been pursued in the last few months.


Meanwhile

Quote:

China itself is hedging its bets by pursuing a number of parallel bilateral and regional strategies. For example, while consulting closely with the US, it has also worked together with Japan and South Korea to create a North-East Asian swap arrangement and promised to consider a regional economic recovery package. China is also interested in adding substance to BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) and put security issues also on its agenda. It is promoting both the Shanghai Cooperation process as well as a closer and more comprehensive relationship with South East Asia.



Unstated is the support to NoKo and TSP.

What else can India do?


Quote:
India’s approach should be to position itself innovatively in a manner that enables it not only to ride-over this crisis with relatively less adverse impact but more importantly, to ensure a position of advantage for itself as a new international and geo-political landscape begins to emerge.

Our political prospects will inevitably be determined not only by how we weather the current storm, but whether we have strategies that enable us to emerge from the crisis as among the foremost of the economies of the world, and as one of the key drivers of the global economy. We will need to go beyond the defensive and survival-first strategies which currently dominate our thinking. Instead, we need to carefully assess what our strengths and vulnerabilities are as a continental-sized emerging economy, and articulate a forward-looking economic game plan on that basis.



So what are the economic weaknesses?


Quote:
At least for some time to come, the impact of the global crisis could well lead to diminished markets overseas and the revival of protectionist tendencies in those markets. There may be, similarly, diminished prospects for attracting inward investment from major capital-exporting countries. In short, the global economic environment may not be as supportive of India’s growth prospects as it has been during the past decade and a half.



So we need our own stimulus to help tide the crisis. This is what Pranab Mukherjee was talking about.

and

Quote:
Secondly, all major economies will end up being more regulated than before. There will be more State intervention, initially by default and eventually by choice. There is a real possibility that a new economic orthodoxy will emerge where the state will, once again, become not only a regulator but a major economic actor. The tendency in countries like India would be to uncritically slip into a similar mode of thinking. Our statist legacy makes us particularly susceptible in this regard. We must guard against this.



The new disinvestment program underway is part of this guarding.

What else?

Quote:
For example, we should use the opportunity created by the crisis to consolidate pro-actively our economic interaction with our neighbours including through unilateral and asymmetric steps, if necessary.


The SAARC process is still there. SL FTA is underway. More can be done.

and

Quote:
We could use the opportunity of depressed commodity and other prices to acquire productive assets abroad while they are cheap, buying energy and raw-material sources, for instance, and making strategic investments abroad. The political obverse of this would be a strong outreach in Africa and West Asia and other developing countries, revitalising our developing country constituency through targeted initiatives



Don't know the progress in this area but a lot of visitors are coming to India.

and

Quote:
The Indian IT industry is likely to be significantly impacted due to loss of overseas markets as well as protectionist trends. So far the IT industry has been focused on the export market. It has not looked at the domestic market as a significant business opportunity. Now could be the time to do this. More competitive conditions in both domestic as well as external markets require Indian industry to be more efficient and productive. This is where our IT industry can play a significant role, but this will require the dynamic sectors of the economy, the service sector and the manufacturing sector, to come together to deliver a major punch, once the global economy settles down into a new and altered landscape. There should be a willingness in business and industry to think through and come up with an ambitious and potentially winning strategy. They should seek government support for delivering on such a strategy rather than looking only for short-term relief.



I haven't seen much here except for Nandan's UID scheme which could keep the IT folks occupied. Satyam has been reconstituted.

and

Quote:
There is a window of opportunity for government and business to take advantage of these favourable conditions, to accelerate the upgradation of our transport networks, build more state of the art airports and seaports, build ten instead of only one high speed rail freight corridors, extend mass public transportation networks to all major towns and cities, and most of all, solve the power problem once for all. The civil nuclear agreement is a timely instrument in our hands today. As investment in the nuclear renaissance in the developed world slows down, India could some source many more high capacity nuclear reactors on the most competitive terms, if it wishes to. The country can leverage its financial credibility in the global market, to raise the funds required. We have to package and project ourselves as part of the solution to the global economic recession and not as its tragic victim. As a sound, credit-worthy and growing economy, with relatively less exposure to the buffeting of the global crisis, we are still a good bet, a low-risk and potentially high-return economy. But we will need to communicate these strengths more effectively to the rest of the world than we have so far.



We see this happening with the Kodankulam and other projects. We see both Australia and Canada visiting India back to back.

and


Quote:
The inter-related crisis of climate change and energy security has already triggered a wave of innovations in renewable energy, such as solar energy, bio-mass and wind energy.



The Copenhagen initiative participation to prevent adverse impact is there. Here is one area for cooperation with US.

and

Quote:
We will need to restructure our economy to play on our strengths such as in IT and reduce our vulnerabilities, for example, in infrastructure. There should be a strategy to take long-term advantage of the depressed global market conditions both for capital equipment and strategic commodities, including nuclear energy. This is an opportunity for acquiring strategic economic assets abroad as well as critical technologies on more favourable terms.

- Finally, we should use the challenge of climate change to fundamentally shift the Indian economy from its reliance on depleting fossil fuels, to a significant use of renewable energy. This will promote India’s energy security and spur technological innovation and change, positioning India as a front-ranking power once the current crisis begins to recede.



Here comes the need to get waivers on technology transfers. Lets see how it plays out in the meeting with US.

Finally,


Quote:
“Linear analysis will get you a much-changed caterpillar but it won’t get you a butterfly. For that you need a leap of imagination”. I am certain that imagination is one resource that is never in short supply in this country.



Well to metamorphose the caterpillar has to work hard. It spins its cocoon and almost dies of exhaustion and goes into sleep. When it wakes it breaks out of the cocoon and gets transformed into a butterfly. So the moral is we need to work hard and not just wish it be so that India becomes a butterfly.

Thanks for the plan.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby disha » 20 Nov 2009 22:05

rajrang wrote:Drag China into the Kashmir argument

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 251958.cms


Wasn't this expected? This is the fallout of DL visit to Tawang. I do not know who said this aptly - "Diplomacy is war by other means".

At this stage Hurryrats are running all over the place. I am not sure if they are being beggars or being pimped or both by the Chimerica?

What credibility Hurryrats have now? They have not been voted in and PDP (pro-paki) is out so what space they have? I think this going under Chimerica shelter is to protect themselves from any fallout from extreme islamofascists like Hizbul Mujaheedin.

Funny thing is what credibility China has when it comes to Ummah support? All one has to shout is "Remember Xinjiang"!

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Jarita » 20 Nov 2009 22:06

India at a "loss" over growing Sino-US ties: Chinese scholars

http://news.rediff.com/interview/2009/n ... report.htm

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Jarita » 20 Nov 2009 22:07

disha wrote:
rajrang wrote:Drag China into the Kashmir argument

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 251958.cms


Wasn't this expected? This is the fallout of DL visit to Tawang. I do not know who said this aptly - "Diplomacy is war by other means".

At this stage Hurryrats are running all over the place. I am not sure if they are being beggars or being pimped or both by the Chimerica?

What credibility Hurryrats have now? They have not been voted in and PDP (pro-paki) is out so what space they have? I think this going under Chimerica shelter is to protect themselves from any fallout from extreme islamofascists like Hizbul Mujaheedin.

Funny thing is what credibility China has when it comes to Ummah support? All one has to shout is "Remember Xinjiang"!


It does not matter to the ummah. Right now their locus in the sub continent and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Baad ki baad mein dehi jayegee

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 20 Nov 2009 22:07

Vera_K, One should also do rhona-dhona while doing other things. Its all part of the game. If there is no rhona-dhona then there will be pressure to yield more.

So as Milton says in Pradise Lost "They also serve who stand and stare!"

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby disha » 20 Nov 2009 22:10

Jarita wrote:India at a "loss" over growing Sino-US ties: Chinese scholars

http://news.rediff.com/interview/2009/n ... report.htm


FUD. Playing on our under confidence (very evident by the mass R&Dh that goes in some of the threads sometimes)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby disha » 20 Nov 2009 22:12

Jarita wrote:It does not matter to the ummah. Right now their locus in the sub continent and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Baad ki baad mein dehi jayegee


That is what led Pakistan to its current state! Is 2012 when China collapses? The 2nd act is always fast!

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby KLNMurthy » 20 Nov 2009 22:26

disha wrote:
Prasanth wrote:Now when everyone is out of cash, they are creating internal demand. They buy the raw materials, produce the stuff, consume and export to us.


There is lot of Rona & Dhona (tm) in this thread. Of course keep a wary eye, but do not get cowered down! What is the ultimate goal? Gain world power or gain widespread development in all fields? Former is arrogance and later is a laudable goal. It might be that achieving later may help get former!





Not world domination but world salvation. We believe Indic values have the necessary solutions for the world, and those values need a strong and prosperous home, that is, India. What we are seeing wrt the West, former Communists, a big part of imperial Islam, and China is a calculating brutalism that destroys mankind's soul and the planet. India has to prevail, to push back on this rakshasa tendency and create a humane universe. This has always been our mission.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 20 Nov 2009 22:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Jarita » 20 Nov 2009 22:27

We should help Deoband and Tablighi Jamaat set up shop in China as part of our goodwill gesture towards secularism. They have no presence there.
I am certain they will attract some converts

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby harbans » 21 Nov 2009 17:04

Not world domination but world salvation. We believe Indic values have the necessary solutions for the world, and those values need a strong and prosperous home, that is, India. What we are seeing wrt the West, former Communists, a big part of imperial Islam, and China is a calculating brutalism that destroys mankind's soul and the planet. India has to prevail, to push back on this rakshasa tendency and create a humane universe. This has always been our mission.

Could'nt have put this better. Very well put indeed.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby SSridhar » 21 Nov 2009 19:29

Viv Sreenivasan wrote:I dont see why we cant have a constructive realtionship with China.


Viv Sreenivasan, unless you meant it as a joke, you really have to study modern Indo-China relations because the above statement is farthest from truth. It is not we who don't want to have a constructive relationship with China. It is the Chinese. Do they want to have a good relationship with us or do they see us as a competitoe to the Heavens which their civilization teaches them that only China & India can occupy ?

PRC was announced by Mao in Oct 1949. India was one of the first few countries to recognize it by December of the same year. Ever since then, India has consistently fought for a place for China in the UN and even sacrificed its possible membership in the UNSC for China. Again, in the Korean crisis, India wanted the UN forces not to cross the 38th Parallel in order to avoid antagonizing China and this created bad blood between the Western world and India. Again, when China was termed as aggressor in Korea, India refused to vote for the UN resolution. Much before India-Russia relationship developed that caused the Western block to look at India suspiciously, it was this constant identification with the Chinese that raised suspicion about India among them. Even after the occupation of the Tibet in 1950 by the Chinese and which was accepted by India in 1954, all that India demanded of China was that Tibet should be given autonomy and their culture and religious practices preserved. Even when China started gobbling up Indian territory slowly but surely after the 1954 Panchsheel principles by publishing incorrect maps of NEFA and feigning them to be some old maps yet to be corrected etc, India did not forcefully take up the cases. We all know what happened in 1962 and since then when PRC even went to the extent of giving nuclear bombs to Pakistan just simply to bottle up India.

I really do not know what more India could have done to China and what less China could have done to India.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Jarita » 21 Nov 2009 20:57

Is this the Han Foundation

http://www.hanwaves.org/

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 21 Nov 2009 22:06

It is my considered opinion that various threads on the china issue are being destabilized by a few posters who seem to revel in making blanket and uninformed statements about the "greatness of the PRC" or even the "sheerness of China".

The reason given for the "PRC uber alles meme" is that the poster merely wants to "educate us" about the "threat posed by China".

Now with all due respect quite a few people who usually post on the these threads have been China watchers for a long time both as a part of BR and otherwise. Some of us are also commentators in the broader sphere.

In my view of things BRF is a repository of strategic analysis and thought provoking discourse. it is not a "manch" for either frothing at the mouth or for unnecessary alarmist talk in the name of "educating" either the posters or whoever reads these pages.

I believe both BR and all its followers will be better served if trolling ( not to put too fine a point on it) is called for what it is, and a more informed range of opinion is allowed to flourish on a subject which is now of more importance than the question of Indo-Pakistani relations.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 22 Nov 2009 07:21

Viv Sreenivasan has been warned for OT posting. I've already made it clear that this thread is NOT for an India china pi$$ing contest. the next person who starts one AND those who respond, all will be warned. If you see an OT post, report it.
this thread is for discussing India-china relations. if someone is interested in discussing china outside of that, there are other china related threads, kindly look them up.
I've moved some posts to the distorted history thread viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3978&start=720
and some to the understanding chinese thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3992&start=360
Also, kindly refrain from asking/discussing personal details of a postor, it has no relevance to the thread.I'll delete all such posts.
Rahul.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Viv Sreenivasan » 22 Nov 2009 07:57

message deleted
Last edited by Viv Sreenivasan on 22 Nov 2009 08:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 22 Nov 2009 08:02

would you take this :rotfl: :rotfl: to the forum feedback thread or risk another warning for OT posting here ?
your choice, I'm waiting.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Viv Sreenivasan » 22 Nov 2009 08:11

message deleted
Last edited by Viv Sreenivasan on 22 Nov 2009 08:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby asprinzl » 22 Nov 2009 08:17

The whole world would not like another India-China war.

On the other hand, the whole world would also NOT want an India-China bond. Imagine this scenario: India and China having a very strong all round relation. The whole world would do everything in their power to prevent such a development because in such a case the demographic size and the potential economic/trade volume would eclipse the world and make the rest of the world totally irrelevant. There would not be a multi-polar world. There would only be an India-China world.

While there are legitimate Indian grievances with regards to China and the solutions are preety logical, India and China must make constructive moves to build strong diplomatic relations. There are many nations especially in the west that want to bolster India against China but some may even plan to poison a potential India-China friendship.

There is a long road to travel but both nations must work to achieve the impossible.
Avram

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 22 Nov 2009 08:21

viv sreenivasan, you mean to tell me you can't find a thread on a forum when you know the name of the thread?
this need for spoon-feeding is exasperating. find it yourself, re-post your complaint there and delete the above. and remember you have to do it before the 24 hrs from the time of posting.


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