INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 21 Nov 2010 18:12

Wooohooo!!!

Awesome news to finish up a great weekend. Couldn't have asked for better. Thank you world!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Nov 2010 18:30

the new air launched missile will be a nuclear tipped one for sure - for naval attacks or attacks on heavily defended land targets - our missile inventory being small, we need a backup to cover all targets should the yellow matter hit the fan. the boeing AGM69 SRAM was a similar weapon. solid fuel, nuke tipped, 200km range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZuV5Ah0uMI

the brahmos2 being worked on will be the conventional strike weapon on naval and land targets.

nirbhay, crystal maze & brahmos1/2 mix will target the heavy air defence radar complexes protected by SR_SRAM and AAA bubbles from long range.

for induction 2025 onward we need our own "bania B52" to carry and release a host of these new weapons expected to come online.
the cost and complexity cannot be as high as new B52 were in their era. and I have just the BRF soln for it

- it needs to have a rotary launcher for 6 big missiles internally (2T, 6m max)
- 4 smaller missiles/EW gear/decoy drone launchers under the wing (1T, 4m max)

so we are looking at a payload of around 16T max
with this payload need a unrefueled combat radius of 2000km
provision for AAR
around a ton of standoff jamming gear
4 crew - 2 pilots, 1 EW operator, 1 offensive weapons operator (bombardier)
commonality with IAF fleet in engines, parts, etc

a MTA scaled up by 25% is just the thing we need. Rus already has internal rotary launcher tech via projects like blackjack. speed is not critical as these weapons would be released from 500-1500km away depending on type. usual 850kmp top speed of a cargo hauler will be adequate. the heavy rib spars and undercarriage of cargo role can be made lighter and more fuel added. the wing can modded slightly to permit better ceiling and climb rate.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Nov 2010 20:14

Shukriya Marten-ji!

It seems that the services still rely on air dropped N bombs as a mainstay.

It would be interesting to see what would be the eventual range and dimensions of the N tipped ALCM that DRDO is developing, will give us an idea of the platform that this will be fired off.

I would assume that if being able to target the farthest reaches of cheena biladhel in the north-east would be the goal, and that would be more on the SSMs. But for the targets in South east china, I suppose the air-launched missiles will be used. These might be both conventional and N-tipped.

The thing that BRFites need remember is that >95% of the chinese population, its defence factories, its industrial infrastructure lies in the relatively small eastern strip of that country - an area that is much much smaller that India. The vast expanse of China is uninhabited or very sparsely so. So when we look at China, think of an area mostly between Japan and Vietnam.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 21 Nov 2010 21:04

When thinking of nuclear weapons, aren't ballistic missiles better option than cruise ? Nobody is going to use that small missile with 200Km range for nuclear role. If ALCM are to be used, then this role should be assigned to Nirbhay.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Nov 2010 21:33

jamwal wrote:When thinking of nuclear weapons, aren't ballistic missiles better option than cruise ? Nobody is going to use that small missile with 200Km range for nuclear role. If ALCM are to be used, then this role should be assigned to Nirbhay.

Why wont they use it for strategic role? The range of the missile should also consider the range of the platform, overall range is technically that of the MKI + missile. The MKI can fly from any location in india, go a bit into enemy territory, launch the missile and come back. Very hard to predict which MKI has the missile and which does not.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Nov 2010 21:39

Guya all this thinking of MKI is to small. What if tha IAF is considering a B 52 type platform for the future. This Air launched weapon will fit neatly if that is the case. Also wasnt the IAF looking for 40 AC for the SFC. This missile could be the weapon of choice for the air launched wing of the SFC.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Nov 2010 21:46

^^ I thought of the 40 aircraft order as well. May be more MKIs themselves, given this is developed for the MKI and we are very familiar with the aircraft.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 21 Nov 2010 22:13

Who we are going to use this 200Km range missile against in a nuke role ? Most of Chinese targets worth a nuke are too far away. Only target is Pakistan. In that case, most of targets are within range even if Agni with 750 Km is launched from bases deep inside India. Even a Prithvi fired from comparatively far locations like Pathankot can hit vital Paki targets.
I'm not saying that a Su30 or a heavier bomber can't be used in this role as suggested above, just that I don't see much merit in it. Just my very humble opinion onlee.

Methinks this discussion is going off topic for this thread,

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Nov 2010 22:45

The point of a triad is to have overlapping systems. So just because you have land based missiles for a target set, does not mean you cannot have aircraft as well. Many reasons why aircraft continue to be used.

So your question is akin to asking why do we have air dropped gravity bombs (with a few km of range at best) when we have land based missiles?

In that sense, this missile can replace/complement gravity bombs with something more effective, and safer for the aircraft.

India is not the only country to have fielded such systems either. US had it as SRAM (Singha mentioned it in the post earlier).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-69_SRAM

The launch aircraft gets a safety margin, and it will be very hard to intercept such a munition.

Now, coming to targets - well that depends on how far you can fly your planes and whether it is possible. Aircraft like the Rafale, already handle the nuclear deterrent role with a very similar missile, in terms of range, and have dedicated low level strike capabilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-Sol_Mo ... ort%C3%A9e

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... afale.html

The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience.

........

From medium level, I descended to low level and engaged the autopilot and autothrottle into covert terrain-following mode along our pre-planned mission route at 450kt/500ft above ground level (for noise abatement), first over the sea and then over the rugged terrain south-west of Arles.

The covert mode used a GPS database, but it can also use TF Radalt or the RBE2 TFR mode as back-up. Low-level ride was excellent in the gusty Mistral conditions, as was the accuracy of the TF profile followed by the aircraft over the semi-mountainous terrain, including flying towards sharply rising cliffs. The "ground watch" system painted a constantly updated escape profile floor in the HUD. With the TF engaged, Nino explained to me some more of the "data fused" symbology in the tactical HLD and altered the flight planned route and the time over target, which was then followed by the autopilot and autothrottle in speed mode.

At the same time, with both of us completely head-in and on TF autopilot, Nino locked up and the FSO TV identified airliners 10,000ft above us, and used the Spectra RWR to cue the FSO TV to do the same against a passing Mirage 2000 on a low-level mission.

So, aircraft tasked with the deterrent role continue to operate today, with similar ranged missiles & do the low-level strike role.

Also, it can be expected that the developers will improve the missile further, adding more range.

Hope I answered your valid queries.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 21 Nov 2010 23:43

IIRC In a 2008 talk at IISC , Saraswat had mentioned these sea based missiles

B-05

K-04 - 3500 km

and a future 6000 km + SLBM with telescopic aerospike.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Nov 2010 00:29

The 200km hypersonic missile is likely an anti-AWACS missile. Possibly anti-satellite, anti-ballistic misslie role as well.

John · Post by **John** » 22 Nov 2010 01:05

sanjaykumar wrote:The 200km hypersonic missile is likely an anti-AWACS missile. Possibly anti-satellite, anti-ballistic misslie role as well.

An AWACS should not even be within 300 km of an enemy aircraft in the first place, in which case it can easily be engaged and shot down with non BVR missile. So the whole idea of AWACS killer is pretty pointless, plus fighter aircraft lumbering around with heavy missile in air superiority role stands little chance when its intercepted by enemy fighters. As for anti-sat role i believe the missile will use scram/ramjet engine so it will likely it can be used to take out satellites.

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 22 Nov 2010 02:04

pkudva ji, are you saying that work on Arihant-2 has started already? Any estimate on when it will be launched?

This is awesome news. TIA!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Nov 2010 03:21

-05 and -04 could be year when started?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Nov 2010 03:29

K-04 follows B-05, per the article. The numbers could be design iterations.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Nov 2010 03:58

When the press states that the range of the missile is 200km, it would be simplistic to accept it so.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Nov 2010 05:02

True.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 22 Nov 2010 08:36

Are we absolutely sure that it is a picture of the Arihant?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Nov 2010 09:25

From the hard copy picked up last night. It got the impression that the coning tower had glass windows at the front of the tower like an old Foxtrot. Dont know how accurate that impression was.

The hydroplanes along with the front end of the tower reminded me of the old Delta class USSR boomer.

JMT

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 22 Nov 2010 09:58

Plus one to India Today sales.

1) Just reiterating Abhik's question, is it really the Arihant?
2) If the details are true, then we really have an ace up our sleeve.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Nov 2010 10:13

There is a lot of information in the India Today article. I has info specific to the K-4 and to the future deterrent systems. The K-4 is also a boost glide vehicle. Remarkable that its range is 3500 km and later 5000 km.
Sea trails from pontoon based launcher means they had numerous high fidelity test/inert vehicle launches before proofing the actual test missile. From its range it looks like A-III. Also the pressure(50Kg/?) its supposed to withstand gives an idea of launch depth. And from the info on B-05 being productionised, the outload could be 12 k-15/B-05s till the K-4 is cleared for sea trials. The Arihant could most likely carry a mixed load of six K-15/B-05s and two K-4s.

I think we need to see real pics and not the notional artist rendering.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 22 Nov 2010 11:44

Santosh wrote:pkudva ji, are you saying that work on Arihant-2 has started already? Any estimate on when it will be launched?

This is awesome news. TIA!

This is all i can say,nothing much. Neiter i would like comment on the pics all of my friends in this forum are discussing.

This is all in our strategic interest of the country.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Nov 2010 12:18

Pkudva,

I feel that you have to stop discussing any aspect of the project on BRF or any other web froum. It will be for the best.

We as a group can live with a lack of information.

JMT

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 22 Nov 2010 12:45

It does not seem like Arihant can target a lot of cities in the country to the north of India with 3500 km range. I am assuming Arihnat is sitting somewhere close to Vizag.

disha · Post by **disha** » 22 Nov 2010 13:01

sanjaykumar wrote:The 200km hypersonic missile is likely an anti-AWACS missile. Possibly anti-satellite, anti-ballistic misslie role as well.

Boost phase Intercept.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Nov 2010 13:34

Guys,

OT alert.

The 200 Km weapon air launched weapon is a straight forward Indian interpration of the SRAM & its USSR counterpart. Please don't attribute capabilities to it that are not being claimed for it.

JMT.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Nov 2010 16:14

A good look at the anechoic cladding which seems to be quite extensive.One must recollect the huge problems the USN is having with their Virginia class SSGNs,cladding peeling off in large dimensions.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Nov 2010 02:09

The US has tiles falling off on the space shuttle, the N subs, the F-22 raptor.

Its the chinese glue that they have been using to stick the tiles.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Nov 2010 02:15

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:1) Just reiterating Abhik's question, is it really the Arihant?

Yes it is!
This picture was taken inside the ship building center in Vizag harbor.

The sail / conning tower closely resembles the Delta Class russian subs.
The front end is a bit like the Kilo class in the arrangement of the navigation sonar and the torpedo tubes arrangement.
There are no pictures of the body and the aft end of the sub, but from what we understand about the ATV, that is all unique to the ATV. The arrangement of 4 VLS missile tubes arranged linearly, has not been seen in any submarine in the world to date.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 23 Nov 2010 04:37

Gagan wrote: This picture was taken inside the ship building center in Vizag harbor.

Based on extensive daylight from the sides,that pic seems more like inside that blue structure covering the mooring berth than the dark cornered long building (SBC) filled with cowering SDREs busy breaking coconuts (in the background).

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1168/vizag21mo8.jpg

Infact photoshop might have been done earlier to probably to mask the fact that it was already towed into that building.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 23 Nov 2010 12:22

This secrecy surrounding Arihant is really maddening. By now the PLA/PLAN would have already acquired satellite pictures of the same and would have shared it with the Pakis. So our enemies know what the submarine looks like and we, the citizens of India, don't have a clue. Why?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Nov 2010 12:32

Christopher Sidor wrote: By now the PLA/PLAN would have already acquired satellite pictures of the same and would have shared it with the Pakis. So our enemies know what the submarine looks like

Any specific reasons/info why you feel so?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 Nov 2010 12:55

Christopher Sidor wrote:This secrecy surrounding Arihant is really maddening. By now the PLA/PLAN would have already acquired satellite pictures of the same and would have shared it with the Pakis. So our enemies know what the submarine looks like and we, the citizens of India, don't have a clue. Why?

How would they do that?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Nov 2010 13:08

This secrecy surrounding Arihant is really maddening. By now the PLA/PLAN would have already acquired satellite pictures of the same and would have shared it with the Pakis. So our enemies know what the submarine looks like and we, the citizens of India, don't have a clue. Why?

Because of posts like this

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 23 Nov 2010 13:25

Christopher Sidor wrote:This secrecy surrounding Arihant is really maddening. By now the PLA/PLAN would have already acquired satellite pictures of the same and would have shared it with the Pakis. So our enemies know what the submarine looks like and we, the citizens of India, don't have a clue. Why?

aaiiyooo.. can a satellite picture provide acoustic and magnetic signature of the said subject??

if not then why we are shivering in our dhoti sir?

they can take as may satellite pics but they wont be able to track it (submerged) using that pic

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 23 Nov 2010 13:53

The point is not that PLAN will be able to track Arihant or not. The point is that they know how it looks. And if IN takes Arihant out for sea trials during the day, then it will be tracked by the Chinese remote sensing satellites. Or it will be tracked by the commercial remote sensing satellites which have been contracted by China.

But we, i.e. civilian Indian Public, dont know. All we have is some schematic diagram which is dated and some pictures. It is not as if Chinese will all of a sudden discover that India has a SSBN. China already has some of its own SSBN.

Protecting the acoustic and magnetic signature is important. But I fail to see how withholding a formal picture of the Submarine in any way helps us.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Nov 2010 13:58

Christopher Sidor wrote:This secrecy surrounding Arihant is really maddening. By now the PLA/PLAN would have already acquired satellite pictures of the same and would have shared it with the Pakis. So our enemies know what the submarine looks like and we, the citizens of India, don't have a clue. Why?

What is worse is that they may have used Cosmic ray photo techniques where cosmic rays from the opposite side of the earth pass through the earth and through Arihant and the photo is caught on a giant photo plate on a Chinese satellite showing the insides of the Arihant like an X-ray. I hope they have used Cosmic ray shielding in Arihant.

small smiley here : )

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 23 Nov 2010 14:09

Really too much Shivji.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Nov 2010 16:31

But we, i.e. civilian Indian Public, dont know.

Ok I do not want to know. I am quite happy to let the Navy decide when they want us to know.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Nov 2010 17:38

The only thing that i as a citizen of India care is that the boat meets all the design parameters and the tests are concluded without any major accidents.

So that the end user gains confidence in the design and able to use it as intended by him. When that is done we will know. Until then its all speculation.