MRCA News and Discussion

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 07 Aug 2009 18:04

Related News:
US offers technology to win Brazil fighter deal: officials

The offer appeared an attempt to blunt competing bids from France's Dassault, which was putting forward its advanced Rafale fighter, and Sweden's Saab, which was proposing its yet-to-be-built Gripen NG.
The Rafale, which has stealth-like technology and cutting-edge cockpit interfaces and threat detection, was seen as Brazil's favored choice, largely because France was offering full transfer of technology -- the key demand in the tender

It was unclear what technology the United States was prepared to share from the F/A-18, which was the oldest model aircraft on offer, having been flying since 1980.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 07 Aug 2009 19:57

Sanku wrote:

India is not doing America a favor by choosing to build stronger ties with America or trusting America and giving American companies a fair chance without prejudice.
Yes it is, in todays world its Indian money which is going to keep so many millions from starving in which ever country India chooses to pump the money generated by the earnings of its citizens.

Sanku,
I'm with you on the whole 'US is an unreliable supplier ' thing but you really went overboard there. You can make a comment like that after we have saved our own starving millions.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 07 Aug 2009 21:14

nrshah wrote:What are our benefits of this so called relation except that we will get some stripped of outdated aircraft / Ships?

The special forces C-130s are state of the art.
The P-8 is state of the art.
Nothing will be stripped from the SH

abhiti wrote:Remind me why does America is willing to sell only F-16 and F-18 which it will discard soon.

There is a lot of interest in selling the F-35, but it wouldn't be ready to meet the MRCA deadline and thus isn't eligible.

And the SH isn't being discarded anytime soon, procurement will continue for at least another few years and it will still make up the majority of the USN fleet in the 2030s.

Philip wrote:the US has banned Sweden from selling us the Gripen with an Israeli made AESA radar,one that Israel has even offered to us for the LCA!

That is why I believe that story is false. It doesn't make any sense. That same company is offering it for the LCA and the MiG-35. Why would the US ban it in the Gripen but not the MiG-35? It's not plausible. Furthermore, Gripen denied having ever wanted the Israeli radar.

The only country that has been CONFIRMED to block AESA tech is FRANCE who messed with Gripen.

Philip wrote:the two US aircraft are truly obsolete

In what way are they obsolete? Remember the MiG-29 is only 3 years younger than the F-16 so think carefully.

Philip wrote:but are between one to three decades older than the other contenders

Provide the dates for all the contenders and try again.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2009 23:02

SU-30MKI is not an MRCA?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 07 Aug 2009 23:08

ramana wrote:SU-30MKI is not an MRCA?

Sure it is. But why are you asking this here?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 Aug 2009 23:09

Brando wrote: This back and forth is proving to be utterly unproductive in breaking through all the anti-American programing and hostility bred into Indians for so many decades. Also, apparently this is becoming increasingly irrelevant with respect to the Indian MRCA and at Boeing and Lockheed's chances.

This would be my last post on this endless 'detraction', however, let me just finally add that at the end of the day, India is not doing America a favor by choosing to build stronger ties with America or trusting America and giving American companies a fair chance without prejudice. Rather, this is an opportunity for India to take advantage to forge closer ties that would benefit millions of its starving people for generations. If the pessimism and closed mindedness prevent India for playing a larger role in an International Coalition of Democratic nations, today led by the US, then it's a pity 1 billion people of a vibrant democracy will have to continue being treated as the "outsiders" with other allied democracies of this world and the US. The US has rules that govern its behavior, these rules do more good than harm and that is why they are in place. If India sees itself as being victimized by these rules like denying technology, research etc, then that would be the result of squandered opportunities by both sides and thats a shame.

Anti-americanism? Perhaps you need to look at the US policies in the region. What is the US doing to help build trust? Like going back on its agreement for the tarapur nuclear plants by retroactively applying laws? By dispatching US naval carriers to bay of bengal to pressurize india? by turning a blind eye to the nuclear proliferation going on between china and pakistan ? by continuing to gift ( gift mind you, not sell) billions of arms to pakistan post 9/11 under the guise of fighting terror, most of which is for use against India, entering into nuclear agreement with India promising one thing and going back on it the moment it is signed? Is this the in-bred anti-Indianism that has been programmed into the gullible people in the US ?

Show me one act of India which has endangered US security, and then talk of anti-americanism. Just because Indians don't trust the US due to US' actions, you call it anti-americanism. But when the US knowingly and willingly endangers Indian security by gifting arms and money to the pakistan government, then it is not anti-Indianism? I assert that the US govt is strongly anti-India and it has continued that behavior till date.

And as for the US rules doing more good than harm, it is for the US. The rules do us more harm. I dont know if you are an Indian or american, but what what you are advocating is not good for India. The US has proved by its actions that it is not trustworthy. It is for the US to help build trust, not India.

And we don't want to be the lap dog of US like UK by blindly following the massa. US has to be more accomodative. Else we have lived with US indifference in the past and we can do it in future.

No one here is anti-US. We want the trade and contacts to improve. But we cannot trust US on Indian security unfortunately. And that is the truth that we must accept and move on.

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 08 Aug 2009 00:42

Brando wrote:
a_kumar wrote: This is sounding like a broken record.. but. I will try again.
"proper/just to US" doesn't mean it is "REALLY proper/just", and definitely doesn't have to be "proper/just to India".

As of now, "BO's proper/just" is mostly going to be "improper/unjust to India". We don't have to go far.. you and your friends on this page are the very reason we get riled up. Your posts are dotted with "India should blindly trust", and wink.. wink at all the "fences" BO and his non-prolifiraction posse are putting up.

In all the paragraphs you have written, I haven't read one line where you said US (Americans in general and BO in particular) understands India's interests. (I will emphasize that Bush's Indo-US nuclear deal was the only exception, which is being watered down by BO). Good reason to stop responding to your posts, but guess am enjoying it
So many words there but I cant quite make much sense of it all.( Whats with all the slash and parentheses ? And what is BO's? The only BO I know stands for Body Odor! )
This back and forth is proving to be utterly unproductive in breaking through all the anti-American programing and hostility bred into Indians for so many decades. Also, apparently this is becoming increasingly irrelevant with respect to the Indian MRCA and at Boeing and Lockheed's chances.

This would be my last post on this endless 'detraction', however, let me just finally add that at the end of the day, India is not doing America a favor by choosing to build stronger ties with America or trusting America and giving American companies a fair chance without prejudice. Rather, this is an opportunity for India to take advantage to forge closer ties that would benefit millions of its starving people for generations. If the pessimism and closed mindedness prevent India for playing a larger role in an International Coalition of Democratic nations, today led by the US, then it's a pity 1 billion people of a vibrant democracy will have to continue being treated as the "outsiders" with other allied democracies of this world and the US. The US has rules that govern its behavior, these rules do more good than harm and that is why they are in place. If India sees itself as being victimized by these rules like denying technology, research etc, then that would be the result of squandered opportunities by both sides and thats a shame.

Wow International coalition of Democratic nations (ICODN), Headed by US, who are the members, US, Ukistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, The European Union etc i guess , am i right?

Americans have a self belief of being the best always in the world, some city wins NFL, or NBA , they are proclaimed world champions, wow. It is funny.

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in ICODN.

The rules you talk of are bent and bent round and round over and over. a real few examples

1) F-15's to saudi Arabia. American and saudi friendship is a joke. That is a country led by a monarchy and rabid women haters who treat women as scum. but are america's best friends.

2) America's friendship with dictator's is legendary , i dont want to go into examples.

and US preaches democracy

BTW i think we also should start behaving selfishly and let us buy Amriki stuff the Horny hornets or the sweet 16, lets just buy 20 of them. But let us make a copy of it and print around 600 of them, Just like chinki-panda would do. If Chink-panda had such a chance to buy a US fighter they would already bought a few hornets, falcons and Euro-canards and a copy of each one would be flying now on borrowed Russian Engines.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Aug 2009 00:50

nachiket wrote: Sanku,
I'm with you on the whole 'US is an unreliable supplier ' thing but you really went overboard there. You can make a comment like that after we have saved our own starving millions.

No, there is no linear causality between our starving millions and theirs.

There is no obligation for us to not acknowledge the fact that its our money that keeps many kitchens running out side the country.

Yes, we have many kitchens in the country that can need help but that is irrelevant to the discussion, as far as Americans are concerned they should concern themselves with their kitchens.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 08 Aug 2009 02:12

MIG-29,and the 53 has the reputation of being the best at air combat with its unique 3-D TVC.Hevaily modified,with new engines (MIG-29 engines are already being made in India),AESA radar (could even come with an Israeli radar)

Are you being serious? I hope your not cuz,The sad reality is that the Mig-29 used to be one of the best in A2A combat but no longer. There is no way that even the Mig-35 can match the EF or Rafale in A2A combat. The AESA radar its supposed to be equipped with is farther behind in development than the Rafales or Gripens.
You do realize that the Israeli radar that could potentially be on the Mig-35 is the same one that could have been on the gripen. So if the US isn't willing to let an israeli radar on the gripen do you honestly believe that it will be fitted on the Russian Mig?

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 08 Aug 2009 02:54

Brando wrote: And what is BO's? The only BO I know stands for Body Odor!

Am sure your rasor-sharp intellect will fill BO with pride!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Aug 2009 06:37

The best interests are served by planes that can be used. The EUM makes the planes form US fit for flypast and joint exercises only. besdies they got two sites for nuke plants and that should be enough while they sort it out with Japan whether they want to sell or not. besides dont know if the F-18 will transmit back to massaland its whereabout all the time to serve as early warning to TSP.
The F16 guys stole the specs and shouldn't be rewarded for espionage. they didn't have the decency to face the courts and decamped.

That leaves the EF, Rafale and Mig 35. Euro-Fighter is good if you are part of their gang. Its a consortium and will subject India to whimsies of all its constituent partners. Europeans have never shown their business sense prevails over their preachyness. So best option is their engine to power the LCA if they want to sell.

The mix can be divided between the Rafale and Mig 35 after all if the US claims on IAF orders is their nuke deal then the other two countries stood by India through thick and thin while US was pontificating and egging PRC after the 1998 tests.

And while at it buy more Su-30MKIs with same radar as Mig35s for commonality. And get the LCA going with the remaining. So we have an effective and potent force to handle Indian challengers. This way anyone except the US caan be handled. And we know democracies dont fight with each other. Directly i.e. They use proxies like TSP. Or PRC per some people.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Aug 2009 06:46

Forgot the Grippen or left it out?

On EUM ............ what is THE REAL story? Is it signed? Or has an agreement been arrived at?

BTW, C-130J ...... are ............ meant for insertion/s. SpOps stuff. Fly past? How about P-8I?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Aug 2009 06:49

Oh, forgot. Them C-130Js? are actually the C-130J-30.

FYI Only:
India Buys 6-12 C-130J-30 Hercules for Special Forces

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Aug 2009 06:59

OK. Thanks to Mr. Google:

Aug 6, 2009 :: EUM with US enhances India's access to best tech: Govt

NEW DELHI: Government today said the End User Monitoring (EUM) agreement with the United States enhances India's access to best technology to meet its security requirements and does not dilute the country's defence policy.

"EUM in no way dilutes India's defence policy but rather enhances India's access to the best technology required to meet her security requirements," Minister of State for External Affairs Preneet Kaur said in a written reply to a Rajya Sabha query.

She said that India and US have agreed on a new standard EUM clause that will be included in Letters of Offer and Acceptance for acquisition of defence articles and equipment to be acquired by Government of India from US Government.

"No blanket agreement has been signed," she said. The minister said that as per the agreed formulation, the US will have to consult India before relevant equipment is made available for verification at an agreed date, time and place.

During US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's visit to India from July 17-21, India had agreed on a new standard EUM with the US.

Whatever that means.

But, it looks like the EUM will be product specific.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 08 Aug 2009 09:07

ramana wrote: besides dont know if the F-18 will transmit back to massaland its whereabout all the time to serve as early warning to TSP.

Not just F-18, C130 & P8-I. I asked this question during handover of Jalashwa.

Now-a-days all one needs is one small GPS transmitter in some remote corner (am sure there are more sophisticated ways).

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 08 Aug 2009 09:15

How does EUM affect ambiguous products .... like Gripen. just curious. I know it stand almost zero chance considering that the engine core comes from khan.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 08 Aug 2009 09:18

ramana wrote:The EUM makes the planes form US fit for flypast and joint exercises only.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 08 Aug 2009 10:10

Shankar wrote:No country denies technology to India like US does -a personal example as of yesterday

wanted to buy some books on liquid hydrogen properties and its use history in US as propulsion fuel from amazon

all the 4 books were denied with a reason the books cannot be shipped to the country of destination indicated by you and not just once repeatedly

So Guys this is US

I agree with the gist of your message but you have used a bad example sir, what you experienced is because of Amazon's policies and has nothing to do per se with the US technology denial regime. While the books which you were trying to get were certainly of an interesting nature, you can even try to get mundane items like Paris Hilton By Paris Hilton For Women [

] shipped to India and you will get the same message as before. More details of shipping restrictions are explained here.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Aug 2009 12:12

Ramanna... "A Solomon come to judgement"!
That was perhaps the most concise summing up of the deal and the course for India to take protecting its interests best.

I ask a Q from our pro-Yanqui friends.Why does the US conduct "Arabian Shark" naval exercises with Pak in the Arabian Sea?
Why has India always been left out of its CENTCOM plans ,forced to exercise with the US's Pacific fleet only in the IOR despite us wanting to exercise with its CENTCOM asets ? I posted earlier in another thread US evdience that India is being deliberately left out so as not to upset Pak!
Is the US teaching Pak anti-ship and ASW exercises and selling it F-16 Falcons to fight the Taliban's "air farce" (probably a few "falcons" of the feathered kind) and when the Taliban posses not even a single bumboat,perhaps a few goatskins for crossing frontier rivers?

It is eminently clear to all that the US is arming Pak with anti-ship Harpoon missiles,P-3 Orions,F-16s,TOW anti-tank missiles,Cobra gunships,etc.,no to fight the Taliban but to be used against India.As well as a turning a blind eye to Pak's nuclear proliferation and increasing nuclear ambitions,its new warhead and missile plants,even though it has such a close military relationship with China.The US is using Pak in the same way that China does with it,to wage a proxy war to counter India,because India is a democracy and a miliitarily weak India under Nehru after Independence was able to exert such tremendous influence upon smaller nations across Africa,Asia and elesewhere to remain neutral and independent without even possessing N-weapons.Imagine what India could do today in international affairs if only we had a dynamic PM and FM who could use India's strengths,like China is doing,to project India nd its interests abroad.It would replace the US as the world's moral conscience and seriously defeat US plans for global dominance through military means.

So as Ramanna has sagaciously observed,buying Yanqui birds will allow their embedded systems to warn the US and thus Pak of the wherabouts and intentions of the IAF.This acquisition is the first wedge in the door,the next will be linking the entire IAF into the US's battleplans by acquiring Link-X communications systems.The takeover of the Indian armed forces is what the US plans and buying a US aircraft would be the equivalent of letting the "Trojan Horse" in by the front door.Do we want to emulate Troy?

PS:Just peep into this report,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... error.html

Barack Obama adviser rejects 'global war on terror'
President Barack Obama's top counter-terrorism adviser has rejected the notion of a "global war on terror" arguing that it led to an obsessive focus on a tactic and suggested America was at war with the world.

Unless Obama dramatically calls Pak to book and forces it to stop its anti-India campaign of terror and counterfeit currency smuggling,why should India reward a so-called friend that is actually helping our mortal enemy destroy us?

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Aug 2009 12:54

Philip wrote:Ramanna... "A Solomon come to judgement"!
That was perhaps the most concise summing up of the deal and the course for India to take protecting its interests best.

I ask a Q from our pro-Yanqui friends.Why does the US conduct "Arabian Shark" naval exercises with Pak in the Arabian Sea?
Why has India always been left out of its CENTCOM plans ,forced to exercise with the US's Pacific fleet only in the IOR despite us wanting to exercise with its CENTCOM asets ? I posted earlier in another thread US evdience that India is being deliberately left out so as not to upset Pak!
Is the US teaching Pak anti-ship and ASW exercises and selling it F-16 Falcons to fight the Taliban's "air farce" (probably a few "falcons" of the feathered kind) and when the Taliban posses not even a single bumboat,perhaps a few goatskins for crossing frontier rivers?

It is eminently clear to all that the US is arming Pak with anti-ship Harpoon missiles,P-3 Orions,F-16s,TOW anti-tank missiles,Cobra gunships,etc.,no to fight the Taliban but to be used against India.As well as a turning a blind eye to Pak's nuclear proliferation and increasing nuclear ambitions,its new warhead and missile plants,even though it has such a close military relationship with China.The US is using Pak in the same way that China does with it,to wage a proxy war to counter India,because India is a democracy and a miliitarily weak India under Nehru after Independence was able to exert such tremendous influence upon smaller nations across Africa,Asia and elesewhere to remain neutral and independent without even possessing N-weapons.Imagine what India could do today in international affairs if only we had a dynamic PM and FM who could use India's strengths,like China is doing,to project India nd its interests abroad.It would replace the US as the world's moral conscience and seriously defeat US plans for global dominance through military means.

So as Ramanna has sagaciously observed,buying Yanqui birds will allow their embedded systems to warn the US and thus Pak of the wherabouts and intentions of the IAF.This acquisition is the first wedge in the door,the next will be linking the entire IAF into the US's battleplans by acquiring Link-X communications systems.The takeover of the Indian armed forces is what the US plans and buying a US aircraft would be the equivalent of letting the "Trojan Horse" in by the front door.Do we want to emulate Troy?

PS:Just peep into this report,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... error.html

Barack Obama adviser rejects 'global war on terror'
President Barack Obama's top counter-terrorism adviser has rejected the notion of a "global war on terror" arguing that it led to an obsessive focus on a tactic and suggested America was at war with the world.
Unless Obama dramatically calls Pak to book and forces it to stop its anti-India campaign of terror and counterfeit currency smuggling,why should India reward a so-called friend that is actually helping our mortal enemy destroy us?

Well said , Philip.One should go by a 'friend' s actions rather than his fine inspiring speeches.Anyone can say anything but only a friend does what you actually need.Is the US actually a friend of India ? should we barter away the freedom and right to use our weapons where we feel is right ? MMRCA deal is not just an economic or technological deal, a huge advantage is given away to the country which clinches the deal.

Charu · Post by **Charu** » 08 Aug 2009 13:34

A combination of MiG 35 and Rafale fits India well (unless the babus and ministers bungle it and we have a selloff)

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 08 Aug 2009 16:17

US helping pak is not in our interest, US helping us to counter China is in our interest. Lets not cloud our current strategy based on something happened in the past (ref. 7th fleet in 1971). Today the dynamics are changed a lot and if some country like US is trying to play with us and we CAN play with them too you know. Shutting door on US is not in our interest now. I say we dont need armaments from US to counter China but we can use US to make our economy even stronger, isnt it another damn important factor in any war? ENR saga is not over, may be US wants to use it a tool to get even better bargains from India. Lets play

If US is insisting that buying weapons from them is very important for building relationship then throw them a bone or two.

But for MRCA I vote for Typhoon

go Typhoon go!

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 08 Aug 2009 16:37

[quote="Philip"]Ramanna... "A Solomon come to judgement"!
So as Ramanna has sagaciously observed,buying Yanqui birds will allow their embedded systems to warn the US and thus Pak of the wherabouts and intentions of the IAF.This acquisition is the first wedge in the door,the next will be linking the entire IAF into the US's battleplans by acquiring Link-X communications systems.The takeover of the Indian armed forces is what the US plans and buying a US aircraft would be the equivalent of letting the "Trojan Horse" in by the front door.Do we want to emulate Troy?[quote]

Philipji and others: Is there any evidence from anywhere in the world, that the US has used embedded trojans in weapons systems. Afterall, even MMS's airforce 1 is all american. Would the IAF not be aware of this possibility ?, can these systems not be detected ?. What stops the Americans from adding their trojans to other MMRCA's eg Typhoon, in a grand conspiracy ?. How do we know that the Russkies/Israelis do not do the same ?. Has Pukisatan suffered from these trojans ?. Questions onlee for the more learned..

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 08 Aug 2009 17:13

Is there any evidence from anywhere in the world, that the US has used embedded trojans in weapons systems

Not weapon systems per se but then...

Bugs On Jiang's Plane?

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 08 Aug 2009 17:21

IAF would operate 230 Su-30MKI planes - this effectively translates into 1/4th of the IAF fighter fleet. Anymore Russian planes increases dependence.

IAF may not be very interested in splitting the order between two planes - don't we have enough types already?

The F-18 sure brings a lot of capablity to the table but the Americans are very unreliable partners in arms trade. To have 1/4th the air force fly American planes is a serious issue - if we do end up buying the F-18 it would have been a 'political decision'. Not that it is impossible but such a purchase would signal a significant shift of long term policy...

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 08 Aug 2009 18:29

ramana wrote:The mix can be divided between the Rafale and Mig 35 after all if the US claims on IAF orders is their nuke deal then the other two countries stood by India through thick and thin while US was pontificating and egging PRC after the 1998 tests. And while at it buy more Su-30MKIs with same radar as Mig35s for commonality.

I couldn't agree more your post. I would further say that given we already have Su 30MKI and PakFA from Russia, I will diversify our vendors. So from geopolitical and even utility perspective Rafale seems like the best bet. But with MMS Egypt fiasco it is clear that while he is the PM America can have his way in just about every way. Therefore F-16 and F-18 are front runners even though they shouldn't be.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 08 Aug 2009 19:21

Guys can we please stop trying to neutralize everything ...... We end up saying all 6 are good for MRCA. This discussion goin no where folks. Plz start eliminating .... its more fun.

Ok let me start the process ..... F16 is out of competition. It has absolutely no chance from any angle. It has the most risk and aint cheap.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 08 Aug 2009 19:46

Mig-35 also stands little chance , it has just 1 prototype as of now , mig-29 has structural issues and this would be the same platform , we already have/ will have the best of Russian Technology , it's a 100% unproved fighter with no exports or even active service.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 08 Aug 2009 20:16

Nihat wrote:Mig-35 also stands little chance , it has just 1 prototype as of now , mig-29 has structural issues and this would be the same platform , we already have/ will have the best of Russian Technology , it's a 100% unproved fighter with no exports or even active service.

Unfortunately you cannot use just those factors to eliminate. That brings the F-16 right back. It is 100% proved, has more than a few prototypes, loads of active service. There are a lot of other factors to consider, political ones included.

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 08 Aug 2009 20:57

I'd eliminate the F-16 and Gripen.
F-16: adds very little that's new, TSP has it, old plane, almost zero chance of further improvement unless there's a cross-deal with Israel or with Japan (Mitsubishi). Too much trouble for too little gain. F-16 'could lead to the F-35'? Why go for a plane we don't want to get a plane we don't need? We'll have the FGFA and hopefully the MCA, and we don't need a stripped-down plane that does the same things. (Only interesting bit could be an F-35B for STOVL use on carriers.)
Gripen: nice plane, but way too similar to the Tejas, comes with zero political benefits and has been nicely hamstrung (Philip, take a bow) by the US. Cheap though.

Coming to the last four, it's neck and neck, I think: big advantages and disadvantages to three (SH, Typhoon, 35), and no great advantage or disadvantage from one (Rafale).

I'd like to see this taking an interesting twist: a 'thanks, but we'll stick to transport craft for now' to the US, and taking the MiG-35 to replace the 29s, plus a few more, on a part-exchange offer (let that upgrade get delayed further, I say), and we more or less fulfil our obligations.

Then we take it to the storm and the squall, and it comes down to what we really need. Air superiority? Typhoon, any day. Strike ability? Rafale, for sure. Will someone at the IAF clarify this bit, please?

Or, heh heh, pay the Russkies to build another line for the Su-30, which I think, deep down, is what we all want...

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 08 Aug 2009 21:09

Philip wrote:The US is using Pak in the same way that China does with it,to wage a proxy war to counter India,because India is a democracy

I see the tinfoil brigade is out in force.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 08 Aug 2009 21:16

It is slightly amusing all the whines about how the US is arming Pakistan to 'take on' India, yet Pakistan is subjected to FAR more intrusive EUM than anything India does or will face.

So choose which side you believe:

1. EUM is toothless and the Pakis will use all their toys against India.

If it is so toothless, then why should India care about any EUM restrictions? They don't matter right?

2. EUM makes any weapons from US worthless except for 'flypast and joint exercises'

If this is the case, then all the things going to Pak are of no concern because they aren't fit for any use against India

Pick one already, but your applying both contradictory positions gets tiresome.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Aug 2009 21:28

Nope it is not contradictory. The main reason we oppose EUM for India is we don't want US snooping around verifying it, we want to have the rights to update it as per our requirement without having US veto over it, have the right to integrate 3rd party stuff on it as and when we require it, and use it as we please. We don't want to provide info to US on how and where we use it etc.

The pakis are happy with whatever they can beg from US. And so far, they have used all the US equipment against India. And given US' penchant to come to pakistan's defense often, the US can use its weapons to blackmail India.

There was a news article earlier that the stingers obtained by hamas in palestine couldn't be used against F16s of IsAF as it recognized it as an american product. If we go for US planes/missiles, will the US remove that lock? Will we be able to use it against pakis US stuff?

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 08 Aug 2009 21:36

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Philip wrote: 1. EUM is toothless and the Pakis will use all their toys against India.

If it is so toothless, then why should India care about any EUM restrictions? They don't matter right?

2. EUM makes any weapons from US worthless except for 'flypast and joint exercises'

If this is the case, then all the things going to Pak are of no concern because they aren't fit for any use against India

3. EUM puts a big question mark on availability of planes
In this case, US Congress can harass India in times of need, and if India doesn't provide the planes for check, since it has the monopoly, it could make parts unavailability. That effectively makes these planes unreliable players in your battleplans (Read up SeaHawks case and tell me what makes you think US Congress will not repeat it.). All the traits well demonstrated with India, Pakistan and other countries as well. Basically India will be hostage to idiosyncracies of US congress.

US has done nothing to suggest otherwise. Infact, it worsened from Bush's administration. It continues to arm-twist/blackmail to detriment of India's interests.

Pakistan leeches off Uncle, so it doesn't have a choise, so Pakistan going for EUM is like a begger saying "Thank You". Lets not bring in Pakistan into this equation.

[Added Later] Really funny that you bring Pakistan into this

. Here is a picture for you. Forget EUM. If Uncle says bend-over if you want these F-16's and in no time Uncle can have his way. They only ask for their "pride to be intact" (aka, help India deliver Kashmir)

Sontu · Post by **Sontu** » 08 Aug 2009 21:42

Anabhaya wrote:
Is there any evidence from anywhere in the world, that the US has used embedded trojans in weapons systems
Not weapon systems per se but then...

Bugs On Jiang's Plane?

I suspect same kind of bugging has been done in all recently purchased BOEING BUSINESS JETS purchased by India for VVIP/Primr Ministers transportation.

Not sure if IAF has done electronic audit (power generation Vs consumption audit and electronoc signal emition on static and on air) and sanitized those planes.

I expect those bugging and communication devices to be working on some kind of long endurance cells/batteries.
When those aircrafts goes to air..those deveices (very very low power emitting antennas) will start emitting the important conversation towards satelite based receivers and possible will not do in contineous wave mode instead it will encript and compress and use pulse mode( to avoid detection)to send the digital signals.

Cells/Batteries will be changed as and when scheduled preventive maintainence is planned/done or US inspectors demands some equipments for EUMA inspection...I woldn's be surprised if those bugging devices are embeded /hidden INSIDE some actual known equipments.

Jai Hind

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 08 Aug 2009 21:43

Sorry, 'contradictory positions"???? rolls around laughing

The US' biggest trade partner is China while it talks about a free world. It keeps giving vast amounts of cash to Pakistan though the war du jour is against terrorism. Its top Muslim ally is Saudi Arabia though KSA has interesting positions on women's rights etc. It has a nice habit of installing or supporting fairly vile dictators who happen to share its interests at that point, while talking about democracy. It created the Mujahideen and now wants to destroy them. It yaps about human rights yet jails thousands after 9/11.

Sorry, can we talk about 'contradictory positions' again?

On-topic again, yes, the EUM does worry us, because the US also has a habit of ignoring its own laws whenever it feels the need (Guantanamo Bay springs to mind). We don't doubt that the EUM will apply very differently to TSP and India, if the US should feel the need.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 08 Aug 2009 22:13

RaviBg wrote:There was a news article earlier that the stingers obtained by hamas in palestine couldn't be used against F16s of IsAF as it recognized it as an american product.

You all really need to dial down the paranoia around here.

They couldn't get a lock because the planes were fitted with stuff like DIRCM

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 08 Aug 2009 22:17

Another thing to remember - Pakis get their hardware for free - all as "aid against al-qeeda" GWOT and what not. So, even if they are restricted by EUM (in usage options, modifications etc), it hardly matters since its free goodies any way.

CM

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Aug 2009 22:30

GeorgeWelch wrote:
RaviBg wrote:There was a news article earlier that the stingers obtained by hamas in palestine couldn't be used against F16s of IsAF as it recognized it as an american product.
You all really need to dial down the paranoia around here.

They couldn't get a lock because the planes were fitted with stuff like DIRCM

Nope, that isn't what I was talking about. Just search on the web and you will quite a few articles on this:

Hamas' Stinger Missile Arsenal Failed to Launch Because of Embedded ID System

The source said Hamas smuggled four Stinger systems in 2008. The source said the Hamas military deployed the Stingers against Israel Air Force AH-64 Apache attack helicopters during strike missions in the northern Gaza Strip.

"Our gunners couldn't fire the weapon," the source recalled. "A notice came up on the display saying 'friendly aircraft.'"

Industry sources said Raytheon, producer of Stinger, installed identification friend/foe capabilities more than a decade ago. The sources said this would prevent Stinger from being fired against any aircraft used by the U.S. military.
...

Hamas stung by unfriendly smuggled Stinger

Why Hamas couldn't shoot Stinger Missiles in Gaza

Why Hamas couldn't shoot Stinger Missiles in Gaza

Monday, April 06, 2009
Why Hamas couldn't shoot Stinger Missiles in Gaza

They tried.

Really. After Hamas successfully smuggled anti-aircraft Stinger missiles into Gaza, they were given the order by Hamas commanders to shoot down IAF Apache helicopters during the past IDF "Cast Lead" offensive.

Yet when they targeted the helicopters, said "Alla hu Akbar" and pulled the trigger, the Stinger just beeped and flashed an error message...

The US manufactured Stinger anti-aircraft rockets have built in sensors that prevent firing upon friendly aircraft...Apache helicopters included.

"We were disappointed by them, and they were found to have been useless," a Hamas source said.

The World Tribune reported:

Industry sources said Raytheon, producer of Stinger, installed identification friend/foe capabilities more than a decade ago. The sources said this would prevent Stinger from being fired against any aircraft used by the U.S. military.

Another Hamas source said gunners deployed Stinger along with heavy machine guns in attacks on Israeli helicopters during the war in the Gaza Strip. The source said one Stinger surface-to-air missile was launched, but the projectile veered off course and struck a Hamas gunner squad.

"The Stinger was drawn by the heat of our guns rather than the engines of the Israeli helicopters," the source said. "At that point, we stopped using this weapon."
The sources said Hamas has abandoned plans to acquire additional Stingers. Instead, the Islamic army has been ordering the Russian-origin SA-16, or Igla-1, surface-to-air missile system, with a range of five kilometers. (source)

Since the ultra high tech weapons failed to work for Hamas, they have resulted to tried and true weapons which never fail...the pre-Passover blood libel.
..

nishug · Post by **nishug** » 08 Aug 2009 22:41

Guddu wrote: Philipji and others: Is there any evidence from anywhere in the world, that the US has used embedded trojans in weapons systems. Afterall, even MMS's airforce 1 is all american. Would the IAF not be aware of this possibility ?, can these systems not be detected ?. What stops the Americans from adding their trojans to other MMRCA's eg Typhoon, in a grand conspiracy ?. How do we know that the Russkies/Israelis do not do the same ?. Has Pukisatan suffered from these trojans ?. Questions onlee for the more learned..

Russkies might do the same but the thing is we and russkies have common enemies. Tomorrow if we decide to go to war against pakis russkies wont mind it and this fact will not change. Its not the same with US.