Indian Space Program Discussion

[member_24808]

GSLV relaunch will take several months

It would be at least two months before the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle D5 (GSLV D5) blasts off from Sriharikota despite a dismayed Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) working overtime to figure out what went wrong last Monday.

“Even if the defect is found to be a minor one, it would take at least two months. The stages (GSLV is a three-stage rocket) have to be dismantled for examination. If it’s a major problem, it might take longer,’’ an ISRO source said from Sriharikota.

2 months to fix the second stage?? Thats how much time it normally takes to assemble the whole rocket, there must be some serious damage....

[SSSalvi]

^^^

2 months for assembly if all qualified components are there.

But when you are finding a problem, then its solution and qualifying the solution and proof assebmly and final integration then it is not excessive delay.

Better be sure than worrying about criticism.

[Vipul]

A spaceport for Tuticorin?

Indian space scientists say that a rocket launch pad in Tamil Nadu's Tuticorin district is technically an ideal location for space missions provided other requirements are also met. "Tuticorin is a good location for a rocket that needs to fly southwards. As a matter of fact, Tuticorin was long ago considered for locating a rocket launching site but the locals opposed this," a senior official of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) told IANS preferring anonymity.

"A rocket launch site should be on the east coast and near the equator. And Tuticorin district satisfies that condition," a former ISRO official told IANS.
According to him, a spaceport in Tuticorin district will be ideal for putting satellites in polar orbit normally undertaken through ISRO's polar satellite launch vehicle (PSLV) and not for satellites for geostationary orbits undertaken by the geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle (GSLV)."In the case of a GSLV mission, the first stage/engine after it burns out might fall on Sri Lanka or in its maritime waters. Such a thing cannot be allowed to happen," he added.

Tamil Nadu can become a hotspot for the Indian space programme like what it is now for the country's nuclear power sector if Karunanidhi's demands of housing a rocket launch pad and an aerospace and propulsion technology institute is set up in the state.

Tamil Nadu has fast reactor research organization, the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR), Madras Atomic Power Station (MAPS), 500 MW prototype fast breeder reactor (PFBR), Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project (KNPP) and other organisations connected with the atomic energy sector.

On Aug 19 when ISRO called off the much-expected launch of its GSLV rocket due to a fuel leak in its second stage/engine, DMK president M. Karunanidhi wrote to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh urging him to set up the country's second launch site at Kulasekarapattinam in Tuticorin district around 600 km from here.
Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J. Jayalalithhaa has so far refrained from commenting on the matter.

"Considering the data and details available with me, I am of the view that Kulasekarapattinam in Thoothukudi (Tuticorin) District in Tamil Nadu will be best suited to construct a new launch site," Karunanidhi wrote. He said the place was near the equator and other ISRO centres and is also considered the best site next to French Guinea, from where some Indian satellites are launched.

Citing the shortage of aerospace and propulsion experts in the country, Karunanidhi also suggested that an Indian Institute of Aerospace and Propulsion Technology be set up at Mahendragiri in Tirunelveli district, around 650 km from here.

ISRO has its Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre (LPSC) at Mahendragiri where it assembles the second and fourth stage/engines for the PSLV. The centre also assembles the second stage engine for the GSLV rocket."Instead of transporting the second and fourth stages to Sriharikota from Mahendragiri it will be easier to shift them to the launch pad if it is built in Kulasekarapattinam which is around 100 km away. Further it is also near the equator," LPSC Staff Association general secretary M. Manoharan told IANS over the phone from Mahendragiri.He said the association had already written letters on the subject to the prime minister and the ISRO top brass, among others.

Responding to criticism that a rocket launch pad in Tuticorin will be suitable only for PSLV missions, Manoharan said: "Most of the space-faring nations have more than one rocket launch site. India plans to launch several PSLV rockets. So a second rocket launch site in Tuticorin district will be better for faster and economical launches."

According to him sufficient land is available in Kulasekarapattinam and the low habitation should enable ISRO to build a spaceport there.On setting up the aerospace and propulsion technology institute, Karunanidhi said: "The Indian Institute of Space Technology in Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala, established by ISRO, focusses mainly on Space Science-related studies. But there is an urgent and pressing need to establish an Institute dedicated to aerospace and propulsion Studies." He said there was an acute shortage of aerospace and propulsion experts in our country.

Karunanidhi said the LPSC campus in Mahendragiri is ideally suited for setting up the Indian Institute of Aerospace and Propulsion Technology to focus on fields like aerospace, propulsion, high speed flights, aircraft and helicopter building and others as there is sufficient extent of land and technical expertise.
According to him, south Tamil Nadu is not industrially advanced despite its strategic and geographical advantages and the availability off talented manpower. He said the setting up of the institute and the second launch site will bring a technological revolution in this part of the country.

[Sridhar]

Tuticorin might be a good location for other reasons, but how does proximity to the equator matter for a spaceport dedicated to polar launches only and no geostationary launches?

[Bade]

Either east or west coast would be fine for polar launches. East coast has an advantage in as it can be used for both polar and equatorial launches.

As of now IIST is not limited to space sciences, as it is meant to train aerospace engineers more than the science part of space sciences. So I see little need to build up another dedicated institute nearby. IIST itself may have staffing issues like the newer IITs.

[member_24808]

PSLV C-25 with Mangalyaan-1 is schdueled for launch from october 21st to november 7th from the first launch pad. PSLV C-25 will be the 25th flight of pslv,it will be a "XL" variant.

[Sridhar]

Unfortunately, there is no location on the entire east coast which is ideal for both launching both polar and geo sats. The Tuticorin coast or somewhere in Balasore is good for polar launches since it will not involve the maneuver around Sri Lanka that such launches from Sriharikota entail. On the other hand, these locations are not ideal for geo launches - Tuticorin would involve flying over Sri Lanka, with the associated liabilities, and Balasore is farther away from the equator.

In any case, the arguments being made for Tuticorin on the basis of its proximity to the equator are bogus, given that the station will be used exclusively for polar launches (where distance from the equator has no consequence). Once we scale up our launches, there is a case to be made for a second launch facility for polar launches, and in that case, Tuticorin district, with its proximity to VSSC and LPSC makes a lot of sense. SHAR can then be dedicated to geo launches. At this point, I am not sure the economics work out (though it may make sense to still acquire the land now when it is available and build as and when the need arises).

[PratikDas]

In any case, the arguments being made for Tuticorin on the basis of its proximity to the equator are bogus, given that the station will be used exclusively for polar launches (where distance from the equator has no consequence).

I don't think this is correct. While the Earth's gravity is the same at all latitudes, the catapult-like action due to the Earth's rotation is the greatest at its widest point [from the axis of rotation].

http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/navigation/2-why-launch-from-equator.html

Once the rocket benefits from the greater push, the rocket's direction can be different for polar and geostationary orbits.

[vina]

On Aug 19 when ISRO called off the much-expected launch of its GSLV rocket due to a fuel leak in its second stage/engine, DMK president M. Karunanidhi wrote to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh urging him to set up the country's second launch site at Kulasekarapattinam in Tuticorin district around 600 km from here.
Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J. Jayalalithhaa has so far refrained from commenting on the matter.

BRILLIANT. Karunandihi and Jayalalitha at their best ! YES. Get the 2nd launch facility at Tuticorin for PSLV launches, and have the propulsion group at Mahendragiri (not just rocket, but also a big facility for gas turbines) .

SHAR is best for Geo Stationary launches. Tuticorin ideal location, close to Thumba/VSSC and other production centers, rail heads close by , ideal location. Turn it into a good launch facility.

[Yogi_G]

In the general version of simcity, building a rocket launch pad or a nuclear reactor benefits the mayor and increases reputation and development. In the Indian version of the game it triggers of massive local protests and demands for sops, hope Abdul Kalam is around forever to intervene when required.

[SSSalvi]

Perhaps the southmost part from where any Indian rocket for space purpose can be launched is around Pondy. Any more south means you are directly targeting Srilanka and avoiding it is a very sharp turning resulting in inefficiency.

Unfortunately for a Sun-synchronous Polar orbit, the satellite has to cross equator from NE to SW in every orbit so although rocket takes off from SHAR in East direction ( to take advantage of Earth's rotation ) it has to navigate more than 90 deg so as to meet this requirement.

West coast will avoid Srilanka but Earth rotation will actually become a disadvantage.

I am sure experts must have computed pros and cons of extra fuel for turning vis a vis Earth rotation force before deciding on SHAR

[vishvak]

Why not get Shri Lanka onboard by extending services and making southern Shri Lanka a launchpad of a few PSLV - while GSLV is worked launch is perfected.

[SSridhar]

There are a few things to consider for Tuticorin & Sri Lanka, IMHO. As the booster and core stage (Stage 1) become increasingly powerful, which can reasonably be expected to be a natural evolution, I am not sure how much would Sri Lanka be a hindrance. Secondly, steerable mechanism may need to be implemented to make the spent rocket motors skip Sri Lanka. Third, another aspect to be considered is what happens if the rocket itself has to be destroyed in the initial stages of the flight as happened with GSLV-F06. Will Sri Lanka be a problem at that time ?

[Victor]

Unfortunately, there is no location on the entire east coast which is ideal for both launching both polar and geo sats.

The best location offering all-round clear shot while being closest Indian land to the equator seems to be Great Nicobar in A&N but it overlooks one of the busiest shipping choke points in the world. Excellent for missiles but perhaps not for space launches.

Next best would seem be Car Nicobar, about the same latitude as Tuticorin. The downrange distance for launch debris is about 150 miles for Cape Canaveral and should be about the same for us at most.

[kit]

why not have an offshore launch facility based on an oil rig platform ?

[kit]

You hang in there buddy

Yeah I'm eating a lot of cornflakes. http://tinyurl.com/b57m6bt

woah ! am already feeling enlightened

wonder if a clone of mr kellog can be put in charge of internet traffic .. he could free up a surprising amount of bandwidth .. sorry OT

[Varoon Shekhar]

"It would be at least two months before the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle D5 (GSLV D5) blasts off from Sriharikota despite a dismayed Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) working overtime to figure out what went wrong last Monday.

“Even if the defect is found to be a minor one, it would take at least two months.

Infuriating and dismaying. They had months and years to prepare for this. They should have gone all out to ensure the most smooth, defect free manufacture, and launch. And I'm the one who used the quote "Expect the best, but prepare for the worst". I'm still disgusted. Get your sh*t together, ISRO!

[AbhiJ]

Unfortunately, there is no location on the entire east coast which is ideal for both launching both polar and geo sats.

The best location offering all-round clear shot while being closest Indian land to the equator seems to be Great Nicobar in A&N but it overlooks one of the busiest shipping choke points in the world. Excellent for missiles but perhaps not for space launches.

Next best would seem be Car Nicobar, about the same latitude as Tuticorin. The downrange distance for launch debris is about 150 miles for Cape Canaveral and should be about the same for us at most.

That region is earthquake and tsunami's darling.

[SaiK]

have they begun leak analysis?

[member_24808]

have they begun leak analysis?

No they cant even go near the rocket for about a week because of poisonous fuel in the air. It's sad to think they had 3 years to prepare for this and they still couldn't get a gslv off the ground, my hope for ISRO is getting less and less, they are all bark and no bite.

[member_24808]

"It would be at least two months before the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle D5 (GSLV D5) blasts off from Sriharikota despite a dismayed Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) working overtime to figure out what went wrong last Monday.

“Even if the defect is found to be a minor one, it would take at least two months.

Infuriating and dismaying. They had months and years to prepare for this. They should have gone all out to ensure the most smooth, defect free manufacture, and launch. And I'm the one who used the quote "Expect the best, but prepare for the worst". I'm still disgusted. Get your sh*t together, ISRO!

Exactly! ISRO needs to get it's act together, if it says its going to do something it should do it or people will start seeing it as a joke! I Remember back in early 2011 they said that GSLV D-5 would fly in June of that year...didn't happen, then they said it would fly in early 2012..that didn't happen either, then they said it would fly in september-october of 2012..you guessed it it never happened, then they said it would be launched by April 2013...didn't happen either, then june, july..didn't happen, then finally in august it was on the launch pad ready for liftoff when suddenly the launch has to be aborted because of a manufacturing defect. I mean seriously? You had three years to prepare for this ISRO, everything should have been spot on and if there was a problem it should have been with the cyro stage not a proven stage like the GS2 which is already in use on the PSLV. Sorry for the rambling tone but this is how i currently feel about ISRO and their bogus timelines.

[Manas]

All the arm chair rocket scientists on this thread should take a chill pill and desist from getting on their high horses and being unfairly critical of ISRO. ISRO along with a few of the DRDO labs (working on the missile programs), DAE are the only govt entities in India that have really delivered consistently on their mission and promises with mostly shoe string budgets.

ISRO has had a very successful track record - a slew of flawless PSLV launches, 10's of orbiting satellities, moon mission etc. There is a reason why the term "it is not rocket science" is thrown around to describe trivial or reasonably complex things. But this is real rocket science. ISRO for the most part trudges on its own with very little collaborative help from advanced space faring countries. The fact that they were able to shut the count down and recover the vehicle intact from the launch pad speaks to the level of maturity of the program. I think they had a similar issue with one of the PSLV launches a few years ago - in that case it was T minus few seconds - i think the strapons had ignited but they were able to shut the whole thing down after they discovered the anomaly and saved the vehicle. After the necessary fixes they had a successful launch a few days later.

Even if it takes a couple more launches to perfect the GSLV it is worth the wait, effort and investment - there is no alternative or short cuts. India can't afford rely on Ariane forever for 2 ton+ satellites.

[manjgu]

@manas..well said. too many arm chair rocket scientists and armchair warriors !

[subhamoy.das]

while it is true that DRDO, ISRO and DAE have delivered a lot but the case of GSLV is something that stands out. First of all there are no user agencies here like Army or Airforce who has been changing their wish list all the time thus adding to program delays. There is no arms vendor trying to sabotage the program. This is not some thing we are trying to do for the first time. GSLV is in house product of ISRO with no user agencies involved. GSVL is the third class of launch vehicle after ASLV and PSLV and thus it is not some thing ISRO is trying to do first time. Agreed CUSP is the first time but the failures have been mostly in the lower stages. So in a nutshell there is something inherently wrong in this vehicle. I read a number of articles when GSLVs kept on failing arguing that there is some basic flaw in the design which can only be over come with a new design. Who knows what was the real reason this time ! ISRO could be telling lies to the nation to cover up for GSLV. I am not too optimistic on GSLV Mark I and will keep on doubting the success of the next launch till we have atleast 4/5 launches in sequence without any failures which at this time looks like a struggle.

[member_23694]

I think they had a similar issue with one of the PSLV launches a few years ago -
in that case it was T minus few seconds - i think the strapons had ignited but they were able to
shut the whole thing down after they discovered the anomaly and saved the vehicle

Really
They stopped the solid stage strap-ons of PSLV after ignition. Strange . How they managed it
Anyways could be a typo

W.R.T GSLV it would be better for ISRO to perform a couple of secret launch and perfect it and then announce to the world else
people like us who count years, months , days, hour for a launch really get upset and that too for some thing which is expected to be
perfected by ISRO like in this case the 2nd stage Vikas engine[around 30+ engines tested in flight for PSLV + GSLV].
Failures due to quality issues and all should come into picture [and acceptable ] when there are numerous launch per year but in this case
when the complete organisation is working on the success of a mission and has spent 3 years perfecting the vehicle and then calling off
the flight for a 2nd stage instead of the cryo engine which was to be actually tested is a bit tough

[Varoon Shekhar]

^^^

The only consolation is that France, with superior infrastructure and more experience with modern science and technology, had 6 failures with its Viking engine, before they got it right. Still, it's not much consolation, and something doesn't feel right.

The Indian Express article is the only one, so far, that refers to a 2 month delay for the next launch. Usually the Hindu newpaper is really up on anything to do with ISRO. Why have they not written anything about the date of the re-launch? Really hoping that someone was misquoted or misunderstood, and that the retry is sooner. Anyway, carry on...

[member_24808]

All the arm chair rocket scientists on this thread should take a chill pill and desist from getting on their high horses and being unfairly critical of ISRO. ISRO along with a few of the DRDO labs (working on the missile programs), DAE are the only govt entities in India that have really delivered consistently on their mission and promises with mostly shoe string budgets.

ISRO has had a very successful track record - a slew of flawless PSLV launches, 10's of orbiting satellities, moon mission etc. There is a reason why the term "it is not rocket science" is thrown around to describe trivial or reasonably complex things. But this is real rocket science. ISRO for the most part trudges on its own with very little collaborative help from advanced space faring countries. The fact that they were able to shut the count down and recover the vehicle intact from the launch pad speaks to the level of maturity of the program. I think they had a similar issue with one of the PSLV launches a few years ago - in that case it was T minus few seconds - i think the strapons had ignited but they were able to shut the whole thing down after they discovered the anomaly and saved the vehicle. After the necessary fixes they had a successful launch a few days later.

Even if it takes a couple more launches to perfect the GSLV it is worth the wait, effort and investment - there is no alternative or short cuts. India can't afford rely on Ariane forever for 2 ton+ satellites.

unfair criticism? Everything i said is fact.

[symontk]

I think they had a similar issue with one of the PSLV launches a few years ago - in that case it was T minus few seconds - i think the strapons had ignited but they were able to shut the whole thing down after they discovered the anomaly and saved the vehicle. After the necessary fixes they had a successful launch a few days later.

unfair criticism? Everything i said is fact.

The above incident again happened with GSLV (in fact the first launch itself) and not PSLV, you cannot shut down a solid motor (which PSLV has). You can only shut down an engine, that's one of the safety feature liquid engines have. In the above incident the GSLV flight computer shut down the launch sequence after it detected low pressure (due to fuel leak) in one of the engines just a second before the solid motor igniters we about to fire. The flight computer took the decision without any help from ground control. It also shows the robustness of the design

[SSridhar]

Guys, two points I wish to make.

Except for one or two, the rest on this forum may not qualify as rocket scientists. There may similarly be very few aerospace or missile or nuclear scientists or diplomats or people professing various other such professions taking part in these fora here. Yet, we all participate in the missile thread or on LCA or on TSP or China or IWT etc. We are all 'arm-chair' in all these threads. We criticize the GoI, for example, for its supposed failings gleefully using very strong language, and rightly so. There is no holy cow. Criticisms must be countered, but not by personal attacks.

We welcome healthy discussion and we want everyone to participate.

Thanks.

[SSSalvi]

^^^ ( @ dhiraj )

It was GSLV flight on 28March 2001 wherein the prime ignition was ignited but was not allowed to ignite the main motors of Strap-ons and core.

We HAD seen the flames. No question of bluff.

http://www.isro.org/pressrelease/script ... Apr24_2001

It may be recalled that the first attempt to launch GSLV on March 28, 2001 was aborted one second before the lift-off by the Automatic Launch Processing System (ALS) after it detected that one of the liquid propulsion strap-on boosters did not develop the required thrust. Based on the detailed analysis of the data during the first three seconds of operation of the four strap-on motors, it was established that the reason for one of the strap-on boosters not developing the required thrust was due to a defective plumbing in the oxidiser flow line of the engine, which had escaped detection during testing. This resulted in reduced flow of oxidiser to the engine. The anomalous engine was replaced with a standby engine for the relaunch on April 18, 2001. The successful flight of GSLV-D1 has validated the analysis and the solution adopted for the relaunch.

[symontk]

Why not get Shri Lanka onboard by extending services and making southern Shri Lanka a launchpad of a few PSLV - while GSLV is worked launch is perfected.

Maldives / Seychelles is even better, you will get an equatorial launch spot too

[member_23694]

^^^ ( @ dhiraj )

It was GSLV flight on 28March 2001 wherein the prime ignition was ignited but was not allowed to ignite the main motors of Strap-ons and core.

We HAD seen the flames. No question of bluff.

yes GSLV definitely.
The earlier post had mentioned PSLV so i suggested that it seems to be a typo

Maldives / Seychelles is even better, you will get an equatorial launch spot too

i am not sure if it is the right time to think for multiple launch sites considering that we have only one working vehicle and trying to
stabilise the other.
My understanding is that such a thought should come into picture when GSLV 3 is up and running and work starts on ULV

[SSSalvi]

BTW .. Gullalamoda, again in AP, ( let's not go into politics of Andhra/Telengana ) was already mentioned by ISRO as a second site last year.

[Manas]

** Deleted **

[Gagan]

BTW .. Gullalamoda, again in AP, ( let's not go into politics of Andhra/Telengana ) was already mentioned by ISRO as a second site last year.

Saar, there is another site very close that was also I think considered. The IAF has a small base very close by.

But for PSLV launches, the proposed Tuticoran (southern TN) or even VSSC Trivandrum are much better than Sriharikota. The dog's loop around Sri Lanka causes unnecessary wastage, would rather see that translated into a larger payload.

[Gagan]

I would support PSLV and GSLV launches from different sites. Select a site that is the BEST for each type of launch - don't compromise on the payload is the Mantra I would use.

[Yogi_G]

Any launch sites on foreign soil is becoming slave to antics and Paki like behaviour by the host nation. Earthquake and tsunami prone areas are also a big deal breaker.

[ravar]

^^^ IIRC the previous reports, land-acquisition had already started for the second launch-site at Nagayalanka (an island like Sriharkota) by ISRO near Machilipatnam, A.P.
The latter location has a missile testing range too coming up, undertaken by DRDO due to the benefits of uninhabited yet vast stretches of mangrove- forests along the coast.

[SSSalvi]

^^^
@ ravar

We are talking of same location

[Bade]

Considering heavy monsoon impact as well as potential cyclone landings on the east coast, a trade-off between a west coast and east coast site would be as closer to Kanyakumari as possible with Sri Lanka being down the path. Even here Kudankulam facility puts a limit on how south one can go.

I would have liked to have a west coast site in addition to the traditional SHAR, but one may have to go as far north as Maharashtra to get to lower population density.