Indian Naval Discussion

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 09 Dec 2009 12:53

hey moderators and admins,
I have few picture of a submarine interior and want to create a sub-album. Kindly let me know the procedure.
Cheers

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Dec 2009 18:22

may I know which submarine ?

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 09 Dec 2009 19:35

>>>BY the way there has been several differences in the various Leander class frigates. Any contributions ?

IIRC Himgiri & Vindhyagiri had LSHSD fired boilers and others had Furnace oil. May be all were converted to LSHSD during refits years later.

Last two Leaders were fitted with APSOH and before that British Sonar

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 09 Dec 2009 20:18

geeth wrote:>>>BY the way there has been several differences in the various Leander class frigates. Any contributions ?

IIRC Himgiri & Vindhyagiri had LSHSD fired boilers and others had Furnace oil. May be all were converted to LSHSD during refits years later.

Last two Leaders were fitted with APSOH and before that British Sonar

Frankly I am not aware of these differences. I will the differences I know, a few days later.

K

PS There are some very obvious differences. I have "requested / banned" Phillip for giving the answers. I am sure that he will coem up with more interesting differences and educate us with some titbits

arun · Post by **arun** » 09 Dec 2009 21:21

Is this the Vijit

:

New Coast Guard ship in trouble off Tarapore coast

By: J Dey

Date: 2009-12-07

Place: Mumbai

The Coast Guard was working hard to save its brand new Coast Guard Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV) from capsizing off the Tarapore coast when this edition when to print. …………………..

State-of-the-art Coast Guard ships Samrat and Sankalp and an Indian naval destroyer have been dispatched to keep the ship from sinking. ……………..

The unnamed OPV got its hull fitted at a shipyard at Baruch in Gujarat, and was heading for Goa Shipyard Limited at Vasco da Gama in south Goa, when it began sinking last evening.

Coast Guard Inspector General SPS Basra confirmed to this newspaper that the unnamed OPV was being rescued. "It has to undergo a refit before it can join the fleet," Basra said.

Mid Day

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 09 Dec 2009 21:43

Videos: INS Godavari combats pirates

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 09 Dec 2009 23:00

geeth wrote:>>>BY the way there has been several differences in the various Leander class frigates. Any contributions ?

IIRC Himgiri & Vindhyagiri had LSHSD fired boilers and others had Furnace oil. May be all were converted to LSHSD during refits years later.

Last two Leaders were fitted with APSOH and before that British Sonar

I think the terminology is LSHS, Low Sulphur Heavy Stock.

K

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Dec 2009 23:30

India to 'fence' naval harbours

Surprising. Not done so far? Thought it would have been natural.

India is planning to secure its naval harbours with electronic fences, the BBC has learnt.

The fences are part of the Integrated Harbour Defence System to secure the harbours "against clandestine threat from sea", security officials say.

It is part of a plan to protect the country's coastline after November 2008's deadly attacks in Mumbai.

Ten gunmen had used boats to sail into Mumbai and carried out the attacks which killed over 170 people.

The Integrated Harbour Defence System will have diver detection sonars, high resolution radars with shore-based command and control system, among other things, officials said.

Radars will also be installed at distances of every 80km (50 miles) on the coastline.

The sonars and radars will pick up any movement near the harbour up to a distance of 70km (43 miles).

'Not enough'

The electronic sea fences will be fixed on the sea bed close to a harbour to stop any diver or a boat from swimming or sailing through.

Only when a warship or a boat enters or leaves the naval harbour would the "electronic net" will be lifted for the ship to sail through.

Officials say India is also ordering sophisticated equipment to secure its 7,500km (4,660 miles) coastline dotted with nearly 200 ports.

The government plans to install transponders on every fishing vessel and trawler that sails into the high seas, officials say.

Mumbai alone has over 24,000 fishing vehicles, and Gujarat another 45,000 vehicles.

An Indian fishing vessel was hijacked in the seas off Gujarat by the gunmen who attacked Mumbai.

Former Indian intelligence chief Arun Bhagat is, however, sceptical about the measures to secure the coastline.

"The urgency which should have propelled state governments after the Mumbai attacks did not last long," Mr Bhagat said.

"Except for some states like Maharashtra and Gujarat, other coastal states have done little".

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Dec 2009 23:55

what is "electronic net" being lifted mean?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Dec 2009 00:16

Shut off electricity to the electronic gear (which creates the net).

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 10 Dec 2009 01:03

I don't want to say this but the satellite pics I have seen on google chacha I see something that is potentially very dangerous in a few of IN's bases.

An IN base just as an Air Force base needs to not share its facilities with any civilian facility.

For example, here two Delhi class DDGs share the warf with a commercial passenger terminal on the other side, with just a wall to separate them. This means that a person who is not security cleared can come within ~ 10-15meters of India's top of the line destroyer.
I think this is a huge oversight.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 10 Dec 2009 01:13

INteresting pic Gagan. Btw, talking of topoftheline destroyers, ain't that the IN's flagship a/c carrier nose to nose with said destroyers?

Btw, considering that the beam of the Viraat is a good 40-50mts, the distance between the civvie tanker and the warships ought to be around a 150-200mts, and not a mere 15mts as one may think based purely on the image itself.

CM

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 10 Dec 2009 01:22

That is the Vikrant. Now a naval museum.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 10 Dec 2009 08:44

The President, also the Supreme Commander of the armed forces, will get a first hand capability demo and ops-demo (Operations Demonstration) of the aircraft carrier and also its complement of the Sea Harrier fighter jets, which will fly down for a fly-past demonstration to the Naval Dockyard in Mumbai, from Goa. Right now out of the Eight Harriers Left in Service in the Navy, only Five Fighters and One Trainer are Operational.

Link
Reporting by Suman Sharma, Daughter of Commodore (Retd.) H.P. Sharma

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Dec 2009 18:45

Low Sulphur High Speed Diesel

She should have refrained from publishing this information. My understanding on the numbers was higher, didnt hear of any significant number of crashes in a while.

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Dec 2009 19:20

Fwiw

Half of Sea Harrier fleet gone in 20 years---RTI

Aviation experts and pilots note that the Harriers require a very high level of skill and consequently a low threshold for error at the controls, suggesting the blame for the crashes might lie primarily with the pilots.

But, a naval aviator, who did not wish to be identified said, â€œHarrier pilots are the pick of naval aviators. They have to undergo a tough selection process and for every one that flies, 10 are left on the wayside.â€

Btw I did come across a website that maintained a record of all the jump jet crashes including the one's from IN (I even recollect seeing the entry for the latest upgraded one which crashed in 2008 ), will try to google it up again.

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Dec 2009 19:23

Tsarkar don't know if there is a discrepancy between the 'operational' numbers and the actual number of airframes.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Dec 2009 20:07

I didnt know so much information is out in the public.

My understanding was ~10-12 airframes remain. Around 3 trainers, 2-3 would be in various stages of upgrade and post upgrade certifications that was to be completed this year or next and 4-6 available for deployment, including those in routine maintenance. This isn’t confirmed, though.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 Dec 2009 20:18

Kersi D wrote:Now a salvo from me

Which was the first IN major vessel to get surface-to-surface missile launchers ? By major vessels I exclude those cute little missile boats; incidentally PN did not find them very cute in 1971 !!!

K

Already answered.
INS Talwar and INS Trishul, the old Whitby class frigates got Styx launchers from the Osa class missiles boats, some time around 1973

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 Dec 2009 20:19

Kersi D wrote:
Which was the first IN vessel to get surface-to-air missiles launchers ?

K

INS Nilgiri. A quad Seacat launcher

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 Dec 2009 20:23

Kersi D wrote:Which was the first major IN vessel to have full diesel propulsion ? Major means greater than say 1000 tons displacement.

INS Beas, INS Betwa and INS Brahmaputra, the old 'Leopard' class AA frigates.

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 Dec 2009 21:40

Kersi D wrote:Generally all the ships of the same class are very similar if not exactly identical.

What is the difference between the 6 Leander class frigates of the IN ?

K

O Boy. This is a real snorter.

1) INS Nilgiri was the first ship. She had a twin 4.5" mm gun turret controlled by a British (Ferranti, I think) FCS. She had one quad Seacat launcher controlled by another similar FCS. The main radar was the British Type 965. She had a deck and hangar suitable for Sea Wasp, but IN used Alouette III. For ASW she had a three barreled Limbo depth charge launcher, aft of the hangar.

2) The second vessel was INS Himgiri. In the second and all subsequent ships the British electronics was replaced with Dutch equipment. The Type 965 and other British radars was replaced by the Signaal LW 02 and DA 02 radars. The British gun /missile FCS was replaced with Signaal M 45 FCS.

INS Himgiri and all subsequent ships had a twin quad Seacat launcher each with a M45 FCS.

NOTE : The British radar had a rectangular antenna whereas the Dutch radar has an oval shape

3) INS Udaygiri

4) INS Dunagiri

5) The fifth ship INS Taragiri and the sixth ship INS Vindhyagiri did not have the ASW Limbos. The space was used for larger heli deck and hangar, suitable for a Seaking. These ships also had a helicopter landing system, i do not know which

Somewhere along the time many other changes took place.

- Two triple 14" Whitehead ASW torpedo launchers were installed amidst.

- A front firing Bofors twin barrel ASW rocket launcher was installed ahead of the 4.5" gun turret

- One of the existing ships have facilities for controlling IN's UAVs, Heron / Searcher ?

- The Seacat launchers and M 45 FCS have been replaced with a Russian AK 630 gun turret along with its 'Bass Tilt' radar/FCS

Adm. Phillip your comments and expertise is required now.

Regards
Kersi

PS. I hope I have (not) bored anybody especially the younger members of the BR

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Dec 2009 21:51

thanks kersi sir, I didn't know of the styx retrofit or the exact details about the nilgiris either !
my knowledge starts from the P16 class !

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 11 Dec 2009 07:43

President Patil to take to sea on INS Viraat

ources on Thursday said Patil was likely to sail in India's solitary aircraft carrier INS Viraat on December 23. "There will be a fleet review as well as live firing of missile systems during the `President's day at sea','' said an official.
....But, as earlier reported by TOI, the 50-year-old INS Viraat is fast running out of the Sea Harrier jump-jets that take off from its angled ski-jump and land vertically on its deck. Navy had inducted 30 of the British-origin Sea Harriers but is left with only 11, with the rest being lost in accidents since the mid-1980s

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Dec 2009 08:11

Kesri D saar, wrt the leanders.
Not only that, the aft helipad is in a different shape in all the ships.
In one there is a semicircular cut on the port side.
In another the helipad is cut in half to allow a door for speed boats to enter from the aft of the ship.
A few ships have a full helipad.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 11 Dec 2009 09:15

The Leander Story

http://www.indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/Tran ... roject.htm

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Dec 2009 10:30

tsarkar wrote:Low Sulphur High Speed Diesel

High speed diesel is used in (high speed) diesel engines, not as fuel for boilers. All diesel have low sulphur. it used to be <1% but today it amy be much lower. High speeds > 800 - 1000 rpm. Only light fuels cn be used in high speed engines. If you want to use heavy fuels you need sleo speed engines, as slow as 120 rpm, e.g. made by Wartsila, MTU, B&W etc

LSHS was a very peculiar fuel produced when the Indian west coast refineries were process Bombay High crude. It is very viscous, like a thick gel, at room temperatures. But its viscosity reduces very sharply with increase in temperature. LSHS is a very clean fuel unlike the furnace ol and Bunker Oil 'C'. It has very little sediments and very low in Conardson carbon. I am not sure if it is still available.

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Dec 2009 10:37

geeth wrote:The Leander Story

http://www.indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/Tran ... roject.htm

Great Article !! Thanks for sharing with us

K

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Dec 2009 11:25

Thanks Kersi, isn’t LSHS the same as Furnace Fuel Oil? What are the differences?

Secondly, I was under the impression newer boilers use LSHSD as fuel because it was more efficient.

However fleet tankers still carry FFO, so my assumption may be wrong.

Corrected later - I was wrong. It is indeed LSHS.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Dec 2009 11:57

tsarkar wrote:Thanks Kersi, isn’t LSHS the same as Furnace Fuel Oil? What are the differences?

Secondly, I was under the impression newer boilers use LSHSD as fuel because it was more efficient.

However fleet tankers still carry FFO, so my assumption may be wrong.

Corrected later - I was wrong. It is indeed LSHS.

Furnace oil is heavy fuel roughly equivalent to US No 6 fuel oil, with viscosity 1500 Redwood Seconds. Bunker C, used in many naval boilers is even heavier about 3500 Redwood Seconds.

Both furnace ol and LSHS are heavy 'cuts' or heavy fuels

When a crude is distilled in an atmospheric distillation column, various fractions are separated based on their boiling point range and number of carbon atoms. In brief, from lighter to heavier fraction we have LPG (C3 - C4 fraction), naphtha (C5 - C8), kerosene, HSD High Speed Diesel (used in motor vehicles), LDO Light Diesel Oil and then the atmospheric column bottoms. The atmospheric column bottoms are further distilled under vacuum to get similar "cuts". Furnace oil is one of the heavier "cuts".

The crude from Bombay high is very waxy. The heavy cuts from the Bombay High crude is basically LSHS. In other (non waxy) crude this cut is used a a base for all lubricants. LSHS is produced in refineries using Bombay High crude i.e. IOCL Vadodara, BPCL and HPCL in Mumbai.

The quality of furnace oil in Indian is BAD. All the lighter prodcust ae refined and all the unwanted sediments etc accumulate in last cheapest product, furnace oil. Furnace oil contains Conardson carbon a form of carbon which is difficult to burn. With improper combustion you get soot, black smoke.

On the other hand LSHS is difficult to handle as it flows easily only after about 60 Deg C so your entire storage and piping has to be heated. Hence it is not (commonly) used in North India as it would be very difficult to handle in winter. But LSHS burns very cleanly.

Today there are no new steam ships coming up. The ship use CODOG or CODAG so you need diesel. The gas turbines and diesel engines can operate on heavy fuels only after substantial pretreatment like centrifuging to remove sediment dewatering. Better and Lighter the fuel you have less smoke, lower maintainence and longer life of the turbine/engine.

I hope I have answered your queries. If you want a simple refinery process chart I can e-mail it to you, just send me yr ID or write to me on kersidotiwalla at rediffmail dot com

Regards
Kersi

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 11 Dec 2009 12:35

with depleting nos of sea harrier whats the future of viraat?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 11 Dec 2009 12:55

manjgu wrote:with depleting nos of sea harrier whats the future of viraat?

what about a heli base...!

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 11 Dec 2009 13:34

Let me share something from the power sector with reference to diesel gensets.

heavy Fuel Oil ( HFO) is no longer being seen as favourably as it used to be vis a vis HSD. the kg price of HFO and the litre price of HSD are no longer that far apart, although the O&M expenses for HFO ( dealing with all that sludge) are higher and using HFO is a cumbersome process . Moreover HSD is compliant with newer emission norms.

LDO btw is de-regulated now and given the rise in its price as well, is not really going to be used that much as it is inferior in calorific value to HSD.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Dec 2009 13:41

Thanks Kersi, from what I know, IN steam turbine ships use Furnace Fuel Oil. However what I don’t know is whether Low Sulphur Heavy Stock is used as Furnace Fuel Oil. Don't all heavy oils need heating for circulation?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Dec 2009 13:50

Grand Admiral Kersi,you've said almost all that needs to be said! I can't understand why the IN/MOD haven't bought up the eraly retired RN SEa Harriers and their eqpt,readily available.It might cost a bit,but with skillful bargaining,we could've acquired another 12-18,plus extra airframes,etc.,upgraded them ourselves and had enough aircraft available for the rest of the Viraat's lifetime,expected to be around 2015,but some say that she could even sail on for some more time in the amphibious/ASW role.This would've been a very cost-effective solution,as the alternative is to rapidly build or acquire another large carrier and a new type of aircraft for STOBAR/Cat launch,costing billions,that too arriving only by 2015 at the earliest! It is a sad fact that when it comes to naval acquisitions,the MOD has bene penny wise and pound foolish.take the Scorpene deal,delays pushing up the price further and the earlier offer for the extra Talwars at the same price for the first three,shabby evaluation of the Gorshkov's modernisation and refit cost and the inordinate delay in the second line of subs too.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 11 Dec 2009 14:27

AFAIK,

Marine ships use a mixture of gas-oil and fuel oil no 5. or no 6 (i.e bunker grade)

no.5 grade is sometimes referred to as navy oil.
And yes all residual oils require heating before use.

LSHS does not offer any real great alternative to HFO. it has comparable calorific value, of course with lower sulphur . although it does have a higher pour point.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 11 Dec 2009 16:54

Indian Navy recovers two Coast Guard Sailors from Sri Lankan fishing vessel

On 08 Dec 09, Indian Coast Guard Ships Priyadarshini and Sarang apprehended seven Sri Lankan fishing boats poaching in Indian waters. The ship was thereafter escorting the SL boats to Visakhapatnam, with two Coast Guard sailors on each boat. On the night of 09/10 Dec 09, whilst on passage, the two Coast Guard sailors positioned on a boat, Win Marine, were overpowered under knife attack, and the boat slipped away with the two CG sailors on board.

Is it a joke?

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 11 Dec 2009 17:06

>>>High speed diesel is used in (high speed) diesel engines, not as fuel for boilers.

INS Taragiri, Vindyagiri, INS Godavari, Ganga, Gomti all had Low Sulphur High Speed Diesel fired boilers from Commissioning time itself. Intial four Leander Class had Furnace Fuel Oil fired boilers, which were converted to LSHSD during subsequent refits. The Boilers of all above ships were built by Naval Dockyard, Bombay under licence from Yarrow. These boilers (all, whether FFO or LSHSD fired) were all operating at 550 PSI steam pressure and are connected each to a 15000 SHP steam turbine (ahead) and 5000 SHP (reverse - using a Curtis wheel), manufactured by BHEL Bhopal.

Before that, Old INS Delhi, Mysore and Vikrant were fitted with Furnace oil fired boilers (Admiralty 3 Drum). Tankers INS Sakthi, Deepak also had FFO fired boilers.

Furnace Oil is heavy fuel (black, sticky at room temp) and is heated and pumped with steam from the burner for better atomisation. HSD is further refined to reduce the sulphur content to make it LSHSD.

Most of the merchant vessels are fitted with slow speed diesel engines and use heavy fuel like HFO. Even when Medium speed diesels like Pielstick, MAK engines are onboard, these ships burn Gasoil which normally is slightly cheaper than HSD.

P.S : "Motor" in Shipping / Naval context generally means Diesel Motor - eg., "M.V" means Motor Vessel, fitted with a Diesel Motor

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Dec 2009 23:08

Gagan wrote:Kesri D saar, wrt the leanders.
Not only that, the aft helipad is in a different shape in all the ships.
In one there is a semicircular cut on the port side.
In another the helipad is cut in half to allow a door for speed boats to enter from the aft of the ship.
A few ships have a full helipad.

Interesting. I was not aware of the shape of helippads in the different vessels.

I do not understand what you mean by a "full helipad"

I think some of the Leanders had a telescopic hangar. Is this what you may call as not a ful helipad ?

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Dec 2009 23:31

D Roy wrote:Let me share something from the power sector with reference to diesel gensets.

heavy Fuel Oil ( HFO) is no longer being seen as favourably as it used to be vis a vis HSD. the kg price of HFO and the litre price of HSD are no longer that far apart, although the O&M expenses for HFO ( dealing with all that sludge) are higher and using HFO is a cumbersome process . Moreover HSD is compliant with newer emission norms.

LDO btw is de-regulated now and given the rise in its price as well, is not really going to be used that much as it is inferior in calorific value to HSD.

Given choice anybody & everybody would like to use light fuel. It is easier to handle (no heating) and gives good combustion with minimum black smoke. However it the relative cost which is the deciding factor.

In India the all these fuels are still (partly) under the APM, Administered Price Mechanism, and there are restrictions on use.

LPG is reserved as the domestic fuel for the large Indian middle class and of course the upper class
Kerosene is reserved as the domestic fuel for the Indian middle class and lower class
HSD, High Speed Diesel is reserved as the transportation
LDO, Light Diesel Oil is reserved as fro agricultural pump sets.

Thus the left-over heavy oils like FO Furnace Oil and LSHS Low Sulphur Heavy Stock is for industrial use in heating boilers.

For captive generation, heavy oil fired diesel engines for electric power generators are available only for sets greater than say 2 - 3 MW, approx 2000 - 3000 hp. Only large sets > 4 - 5 MW are available for using heavy oil.

A 'dirty' fuel' like heavy oil can be tolerated in the boilers but definitely not by the gas turbines. Gas turbines would use light fuels and that too with some treatment.

I am not sure what fuel is used by IN for its gas turbine ships like INS Delhi etc. My guess is HSD/LDO, something like US Fuel Oil #2.

I have been under the impression that for steam ship shipboard boilers only heavy fuels e.g. Bunker C and FO are used.

By the way some USN ships use the same fuel for the ships as well as for the shipboard helicopters i.e. avgas or light oil

Kersi