Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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Anujan
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Anujan » 06 Mar 2009 10:23

m mittal wrote:Tejas IMO is a pretty lame name...........


Depends on the context. "Tejas Tejasvi Naamaham" or "I am the glory of the glorious" is the motto of TACDE (alternate translation "The glory of the glorious is my name": Tejas=glory, Tejasvi=those who posess glory, Naamaham=my name, I am known as, I am). Also uttered by one Krishna in Bhagavad Gita Chapter 7 verse 10. He seems to like that name :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby m mittal » 06 Mar 2009 10:46

Sorry my friend, I am not much of a religious person. And I don't want to hurt ur sentiments of faith.

I was just giving my opinion that Tejas sounds lame to me and it does not matter to me who used what at what time; it still sounds lame to me.

Mods.....I hope I am not violating any rules here.........in case I am; I'll be happy to edit my post.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby merlin » 06 Mar 2009 11:10

Gerard wrote:Some of us have still not gotten over "Tejas"


Too bad. Personally I think it is a brilliant name.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby nrshah » 06 Mar 2009 11:21

merlin wrote:
Gerard wrote:Some of us have still not gotten over "Tejas"


Too bad. Personally I think it is a brilliant name.


It is a good name, but reflects soft attitude of we Indians. Name should be such which when uttered feels the heart of enemy with fear.

- Nitin

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 06 Mar 2009 11:57

k prasad wrote:BrahMos aren't sure if the GPS deliberately blinked, or there was some genuine error... either way, it pointed out that a single source would not be reliable. I think GPS will be the first line, with GLONASS after that.

I wonder...
Can both (GPS & GLONASS) be used simultaneously? In case of discrepancies in data during flight, which of the 2 will be trusted.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby neerajb » 06 Mar 2009 11:58

SaiK wrote:is it good to have an electro-optical homing for LACM for terminal phase, thus removing the dependency with satellite based corrections that could be used for mid-course INS adjustments onlee?


One will surely not like the missile to miss it's target in fog, smoke, rain, clouds, storms etc which could be present around the target. High frequency radiations (i.e. IR, MMW or Laser) are very susceptilble to atmospheric attenuation. RF seeker ensures all weather capability.

Cheers....

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby neerajb » 06 Mar 2009 12:07

rakall wrote:I specifically asked if there was an mmw or SAR or ElOp seeker..
.
.
.
Which probably means the mmw or SAR seekers that can replace the existing RF seeker are probably over-sized compared to the exisiting one..


Why are we mixing up MMW (firecontrol) and SAR (imaging radar)? They both provide high resolution images but working principle (MMW for imaging V/s virtual gigantic antenna) dictates the difference in usage.

Just being nit-picky here, Though I am a fan of yours. :)

Cheers....

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Nihat » 06 Mar 2009 13:01

any initial news on the interceptor test scheduled for today.?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Philip » 06 Mar 2009 15:38

In the case of the army version of B'Mos,the target is quite different than that of the naval versions,where the warship is "seen" against a background of the sea,or picked out from several ships.US current defence against anti-ship missiles attacking at sea-skimming alt. ,is to place rows of SAMs along the deck edge,with larger missiles in the middle.These deck edge located missiles,when hit by an incoming missile, act like tank ERA modules exploding outwards.Thus,the inner larger missile silos which are also armoured,are protected better.Current warship dsign worldwide o not use this technique,which the IN should explore.

Army versions of Brahmos will have to defeat heavily built structures and installations,which could even have several layers of concrete and blast spaces in between.From surveillance and intel,weaknesses will have been detected,such as vents,openings,etc.Pin point accuracy is thus required for a successful strike.Avoiding enemy anti-missile defences could also see the missile fly low to avoid detection,popping up and attacking the target vertically as some members have indicated.Whether B'Mos has tandem warheads capability ain't know for sure,but underground bunkers and command centres will be very heavily designed for such attacks.We don't know what "trick" was tested out in this last test.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 06 Mar 2009 16:06

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... kuKw=&SEO=
06 Mar 2009 01:22:44 PM IST
BALASORE: Defence scientists are slated to carry out an air defence exercise near Orissa coast over the next two days using an interceptor missile

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby k prasad » 06 Mar 2009 16:16

Arun_S wrote:
k prasad wrote:Yes rakall... that is what was the issue... the GPS signal was not received at the crucial last second, and INS held the data, which meant that the missile didn't tip - it ended up going a few meters over the target and hit the sands about 5-10 km behind (IIRC).

To me that does not make sense. No missile designer will wait for last few second (from the time missile needs to tip) to re-align its INS from GPS; one might as well throw the INS junk and instead get the INS used in first generation DARIN.

Pls note that the value of GPS is only in helping INS get to vicinity of target so that SCAN correlator algorithm can do its job and reduce CEP due to INS from 30 meter to 1 meters due to SCAN correlator algorithm . Flight Control System's targeting decision to tip missile trajectory is largely based on SCAN correlator algorithm input and not INS. The root cause IMHO of previous test failure was SCAN correlator algorithm not locking to the target because either:
    A. it was not able to initialize its frame from what INS told it
    B. or the SCAN correlator failed to resolve/acquire target due to some bug.

Scant press reports indicate it was A. was the cause ; viz initializaion code of SCAN correlator algorithm .

IMO this test succeeded not because GPS signal was being received, bit because they bug fixed the initialization code of SCAN correlator algorithm that should have worked, even if INS did not receive any mid course datum update from GPS for such a short duration flight.



Hmm... maybe you are indeed right Arunsaar, and I have misunderstood the BrahMos guy - what exactly his words were that "Missile FCS was supposed to give command to tip the missile, but because of some problem in last few seconds with GPS and INS, the signal was not given, which made missile go just over the target"

Is it possible that the SCAN correlates according to the position, and because the GPS signal went "FATT", it couldn't recognize the surroundings properly and didn't tip??

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 06 Mar 2009 17:10

Indian BMD test success, third time in a row

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has flight tested a Ballistic Missile Interceptor for the third time on 06 March 2009 at 1624 hrs from Wheeler Island, Integrated Test Range (ITR) successfully achieving the mission objectives set. The two stage Interceptor Missile fitted with advanced systems has neutralized the target, enemy missile at 75 Kms altitude.

To mimic the incoming enemy’s ballistic missile trajectory Dhanush missile went to an altitude of 120 Km and was launched from ship about 100 km away from Coast. The Interceptor missile was launched using mobile launcher located on Wheeler Island Launch Complex.

This is the second test flight of the Exo atmospheric Kill Vehicle called PAD. This was a direct hit.

The third consecutive interception of Ballistic Missiles once again demonstrated the robustness of the Indian BMD system. DRDO in past has conducted two interception trials, first in Exo-atmospheric region at 48 Kms altitude on 27th November 06 and second in endo-atmospheric region at 15 kms using AAD missile on 06 Dec 07.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ravi_s » 06 Mar 2009 17:14

news coming in that the PAD test has been successful..

congrats...!!!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 06 Mar 2009 17:16

congratulation DRDO!!! way to go.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ravi_s » 06 Mar 2009 17:23

Is it DDM at it again reporting that the kill happened at 75 Km altitude..

if true, it's a wonderful news..!!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 06 Mar 2009 17:26

no news is flashing! still waiting...

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby nrshah » 06 Mar 2009 18:00

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-sucess ... 996-3.html

India sucessfully tests Interceptor missile

Great work DRDO...

Cheers...

- Nitin

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby krishnan » 06 Mar 2009 18:09

Whats gimballed directional warhead ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 06 Mar 2009 18:37

I dont know a huge details on it though, I have some memory of a short conversation with my friend wayback in 2002/2003 when they were designing Gimballed antenna at ISRO, Ahmedabad. It is kind of a huge hemispherical antenna which usually had some important functions associated with satellite communication and tracking. He did mentioned that USA and Russia had it. I am not sure it is same thing or a different stuff.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 06 Mar 2009 18:38

From MOD

India today inched closer towards its endeavour to put in place its own home-grown Ballistic Missile Defence System as it successfully carried out the third Interceptor test today at 1624 hrs from Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Wheeler Island in Orissa. The mission control room burst into raptures as the radar display indicated the interception and destruction of the decoy enemy missile by the interceptor. Today’s test achieved all the mission objectives. The two-stage Interceptor Missile fitted with advanced systems hit the target enemy missile at 75 kms altitude.

To mimic the incoming enemy’s ballistic missile trajectory, Dhanush missile went to an altitude of 120 Km and was launched from ship about 100 km away from the Orissa Coast. The Interceptor missile was launched from a mobile launcher located on Wheeler Island Launch Complex.

The third consecutive interception of Ballistic Missiles once again demonstrated the robustness of the Indian Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system. The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) have already conducted two interception trials, first in Exo-atmospheric region at 48 Kms altitude on 27th November 06 and second in endo-atmospheric region at 15 kms using Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile on 06 Dec 07.

The missile interception trial was witnessed by the DRDO Chief Shri M Natarajan, Air Defence Programme Director Dr VK Saraswat, senior Scientists from DRDO, senior officers from Armed Forces and Government officials. The Defence Minister Shri A K Antony has congratulated the scientific community of DRDO for the third consecutive success in achieving Ballistic Missile Defence capability

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kailash » 06 Mar 2009 18:52

krishnan wrote:Whats gimballed directional warhead ?


Gimbal is a system used to orient the warhead in the direction of the target. Then the charges are lit electronically to produce a higly directional (~cylindrical) explosion.

A gimbal system - http://science.howstuffworks.com/gimbal1.htm
A small slide which show how the explosion is set off - http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/rockets/cunard.pdf

If you are really "into" specifics, check the following abstracts
http://www.naun.org/journals/mcs/mcs-53.pdf
http://www.optisyn.com/research/papers/ ... Cd2000.pdf

Ironic these papers are authored by Indians and Chinese working for US/China


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 06 Mar 2009 21:32




For BRF afficinados, and you know who you are, Dr. K Santhanam is in this video.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 06 Mar 2009 23:27

Fantastic.

Congrats DRDO and hundreds of others in services and government/civil organizations related to this mission and project.

On to next milestone.
Get another 3 tests under belt quickey to get it operational.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Vipul » 06 Mar 2009 23:32


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Vivs » 07 Mar 2009 00:10

In case this is not posted yet...Astra test firing advanced

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... rings.html

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 07 Mar 2009 00:24

Reading those papers posted by Kailash, directed warhead requires an integrated flight control and guidance package in order to optimize the dispersal pattern. So this new Pradyumna is an improved capability vehicle.

Also looks like the author is a long time expert in this in massa land.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Bharat » 07 Mar 2009 01:04

How can two or three more tests be sufficient? Shouldn't we test fire an actual Agni missile on a 1,500 Km range and intercept it? Maybe that's on the cards, but I have not read about.
It appears that DRDO undertook this test. Shouldn't an operational test be conducted by the army/air force who are going to buy and use the system?
I have not read (maybe it's in other stages) about the operational plan for the missile. Is it a mass produced value defender weapon or force defender weapon?
I have read about a network centric defence, do we have the set up to have a central air defence station responsible for all flying objects above 100,000 ft?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gerard » 07 Mar 2009 01:21

Interceptor does it again
T.S. Subramanian and Y. Mallikarjun
The interceptor used for the first time a manoeuvrable warhead called gimballed directional warhead (GDW), which can rotate 360 degrees.

As the single-stage Dhanush, 9.4 metres tall and weighing 4.5 tonnes, lifted off at 4.17 p.m. from the ship located 150 km away from the Wheeler Island, radars at Konark and Paradip in Orissa tracked it 50 seconds into its flight. The Mission Control Centre (the MCC) on the island also received information about it.

The MCC declared it a hostile target and that it would impact very close to the island. This data was used by the Launch Control Centre (LCC) to compute the trajectory of the interceptor, called Prithvi Air Defence (PAD II), to engage the target missile at an altitude of 80 km. The LCC also automatically decided when the interceptor should lift off and the launch computer gave the command for it.

About 160 seconds into the flight of Dhanush plus 150 seconds after the lift-off of the interceptor, the interceptor’s homing seeker acquired the target. Using this information, the interceptor’s computer guided it towards the target and brought it very close to it. At this point of time, the radio proximity fuse (RPF) of the GDW computed the time at which it should explode.

Dr. Saraswat, who is also Chief Controller, DRDO, said: “When the target and the interceptor were practically colliding with each other, the warhead was detonated which led to the fragmentation of the target and the interceptor. It was a direct hit and also warhead detonation. The large number of fragments formed due to collision and detonation were tracked by the ground radars and we could see that hundreds of new tracks had been formed, confirming that the target was destroyed in both a direct hit and detonation.”

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby putnanja » 07 Mar 2009 04:07

Prithvi missile in limbo

The Hyderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) — manufacturer of Prithvi I and Prithvi II missiles — had received the Centre’s directive to short-close the production in January 2009, sources told Deccan Herald.
The abrupt closure means the armed forces will be short of 40-odd Prithvi II missiles, as the BDL will deliver only a portion of the original order. Neither the defence ministry nor the BDL authorities have explained the reasons behind the closure.

...
The PSU was successfully delivering quality missiles systems as per schedule till the closure. The BDL management has now been instructed to finish off the few Prithvi missiles, which are in the last stages, and close the project, according to sources.

The issue was taken up with Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh in Parliament in February. However, the Minister refused to respond, arguing it would be against national interest.
...

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Katare » 07 Mar 2009 04:52

I think it was expected that they would move away from liquid fueled Prithvi's to newer more modern short range solid fuel missiles like Agni 1 and Shaurya besides more cruise missiles like Brahmos and Nirbhay. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby John » 07 Mar 2009 05:12

Katare wrote:I think it was expected that they would move away from liquid fueled Prithvi's to newer more modern short range solid fuel missiles like Agni 1 and Shaurya besides more cruise missiles like Brahmos and Nirbhay. :twisted:

My question is why bother with Brahmos or Nirbhay for land based system when Shaurya can fill in that role.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby JaiS » 07 Mar 2009 06:06

This patent seems to go into the details of how a GDW works.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Bharat » 07 Mar 2009 08:45

My 2 cents worth....

Brahmos is a tactical battlefield weapon; so it can be used as a tactical missile for terrorist camps, static radars, buildings (hosting enemy intel centers) in a city etc. It has a range of 290 Kms with 600 lb warhead. It cannot be nuclear tipped unless we have that weight warheads and due to MTCR. We could theoretically do it; but it might piss of the Russians. Given all the testing and write ups; it is a high precision weapon which will help us with pinpoint accuracy.
Question: Can the Brahmos do a U-TURN at high speed and strike at the enemy's back? At Kargil, the IAF said if we could move across the line of control we will have greater impact.. Basically fly over TSP territory and then fly back into the line of control to hit bunker formations.. Sounds to be an expensive drop for a bunker, but would be a life saver in Tiger Hill kind of assault.


Nirbhay appears to be the subsonic cruise missile with a 1000 Km range. I don't the cost factor; but due to range it's Indian made; so the cost will be down. I don't know the battlefield space, Nirbhay is supposed to take up.. Could be long range strikes at harbor ports sneaking in over water or shore based radar facilities or air ports. The exact payload capabilities of Nirbhay is unknown to this dim-witted author. Other forumites could provide more info...

Now IMO (which might not matter much) cruise missiles can be intercepted as even in the supersonic range, they are at Mach 2-3... Unlike a ballistic missile which gets into Mach 12-14 which makes radar tracking and interception a whole new game..

Shaurya is touted as the land version of P-15. A land based missile which can be stored in cannisters and underground silos. Now TSP does not have the kind of accuracy to take out missile silos right on their head in a conventional/nuclear war. They do not have the big mega busters to remove the CEP of 1-2 KM (the green paint has a drastic effect). So a Shaurya in a silo provides a strong second strike force.. Plus being in an underground silo; we might envision a case where there are techinical and scientific officers. The scientific officer might take care of the warhead mating and technical officers prepare the missile under a general command.. A commanding general might then be able to launch an Indian riposte... Having a silo is a bulls eye for the enemy; but having a protected silo which is not easy to penetrate also provides an in your face... take your best shot and then start your prayers.
Shaurya could be used in a conventional roles to take out enemy air defenses; large troop formations or ports. Though, it is unlikely given the strategic role Shaurya plays in a nuclear force that it will be used as a conventional battlefield weapon. Now with Shaurya and Agni-I (the 700 Km range), I do not see a difference in a strategic nuclear force. Both seem to have similar results for an enemy. A 200 Kt bomb delivered from 700 KMS away.


So, I would classify Brahmos as tactical battlefield weapon used during battle, Shaurya as a strategic weapon and leave someone else to provide details and classify Nirbhay.

I am still not convinced that Prithvi does not have a role in a conventional warfare. With Prithvi not fulfilling a strategic role, it could provide as a great asset for strikes on troop formations, fixed bases etc.. With a CEP of 10-50 mts (0.01% for range per BR missiles page), it can be useful to drop cluster bombs over troop formations or can raise havoc on an air base or nodal communication centers.

I have thrown up all my intelligence and now will await the ridicule of other learned forum members... Aah.. the price one pays for opening his mouth without thinking !

Edited.. Brahmos range from 390--> 290 (fat fingering)
Last edited by Bharat on 07 Mar 2009 09:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gaurav_S » 07 Mar 2009 08:55

First thing to know is as per now BrahMos range is <300km.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gaurav_S » 07 Mar 2009 09:03

Bharat wrote:
I am still not convinced that Prithvi does not have a role in a conventional warfare. With Prithvi not fulfilling a strategic role, it could provide as a great asset for strikes on troop formations, fixed bases etc.. With a CEP of 10-50 mts (0.01% for range per BR missiles page), it can be useful to drop cluster bombs over troop formations or can raise havoc on an air base or nodal communication centers.
Edited.. Brahmos range from 390--> 290 (fat fingering)


Also dunno from where you came to know that Prithvi does not have a role in conventional warfare. Its a tactical missile.

Although Prithvi is capable of carrying nuclear/strategic warheads, it is dedicated for battlefield use making use of conventional payloads such as pre-fragmented explosives, bomblets, incendiary, cluster munitions, sub-munitions, fuel-air and high explosives

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Bharat » 07 Mar 2009 09:10

Based on the cancellation of further missiles and closing down of production line at Bharat Dynamics

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Mar ... ntpagenews

That's what surprised me..

I don't look at a situation where we need the Prithvi in a nuclear role. Yes, It can carry a nuclear warhead; but freeing it from the strategic role enables it for the tactical role. IMO, the enemy knows that we have other missiles in our armoury to deliver a nuclear warhead and the Prithvi being fired is for tactical purposes. If we insist on Prithvi being a part of our strategic force, then we cannot use it in a tactical role. The risks will be too great to trigger of a nuclear exchange. We could argue this point till the end of world; and still not come to a conculsion.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sum » 07 Mar 2009 10:48

Has there been any realistic time-frame given for the first Nirbhay test flight?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 07 Mar 2009 10:48

RaviBg wrote:Prithvi missile in limbo

The Hyderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) — manufacturer of Prithvi I and Prithvi II missiles — had received the Centre’s directive to short-close the production in January 2009, sources told Deccan Herald.
The abrupt closure means the armed forces will be short of 40-odd Prithvi II missiles, as the BDL will deliver only a portion of the original order. Neither the defence ministry nor the BDL authorities have explained the reasons behind the closure.

...
The PSU was successfully delivering quality missiles systems as per schedule till the closure. The BDL management has now been instructed to finish off the few Prithvi missiles, which are in the last stages, and close the project, according to sources.

The issue was taken up with Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh in Parliament in February. However, the Minister refused to respond, arguing it would be against national interest.
...

I see that as good news for it means their have already switched to a different boat, and not legs in two boats.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Bharat » 07 Mar 2009 10:55

Arun_S: Could you please explain a bit more.. ?
Also.. have we met in Sunnyvale once for lunch about 5 December's back ?


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