Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 20 May 2009 18:03

I have my doubts about "Sakaal News" as a proper source , plus when these unknown and reliable sources say something to DDM , it should not be taken at face value.

Remember Rafale !!

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 20 May 2009 18:51

NRao wrote:
The guidance system can correct the missiles midway path deviation if it behaves erratically at an angle of 40 to 60 degree but not beyond that, said a defence scientist. The disaster might have happened due to design and manufacturing faults, he added.
Thought this was a stock missile!! IF true, the entire stock could have this flaw?

No, it was the fault of Army! They did not provide the same data that was given in the lab simulations. Every system must be tested strictly under lab data no deviation is needed. If we really need some working missiles we have import from Israel.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 20 May 2009 18:58

Bhai Logo
As the old advertising mantra of IODEX goes, Iodex maliye kaam pey chaliye. Nothing succeed like success.

Either Agni user trial was successful or it was a failure, there is no other way about it. If there was a failure nothing to be ashamed, it is just giving us the opportunity to learn from mistakes and develop better product.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 20 May 2009 19:05

Baljeet wrote:Bhai Logo
As the old advertising mantra of IODEX goes, Iodex maliye kaam pey chaliye. Nothing succeed like success.

Either Agni user trial was successful or it was a failure, there is no other way about it. If there was a failure nothing to be ashamed, it is just giving us the opportunity to learn from mistakes and develop better product.

Yep we had similar issue with the Brahmos also but it was rectified. So hopefully!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 May 2009 19:10

sunilUpa wrote:Agni II test failed?

BHUBANESWAR: Agni-II, countrys nuclear counter strike capability ballistic missile has reportedly failed to deliver desired result.

The trial was conducted from Wheeler Island, part of the integrated test range of Orissa coast on Tuesday at about 10 am.

Reliable sources at the Wheelers Island said the countdown was normal, liftoff was smooth and then disaster struck as the 2000 kms plus range Agni-II missile instead of traveling on the pre-determined trajectory started wandering midway.

The missile deviated from its path after the first stage separation and was meandering at an angle of 180 degree midway. Though it was coordinated to cover a distance of nearly 2000 km, within just 127 seconds it covered 203 km before plunging into the sea, said the source.

The guidance system can correct the missiles midway path deviation if it behaves erratically at an angle of 40 to 60 degree but not beyond that, said a defence scientist. The disaster might have happened due to design and manufacturing faults, he added.
link

Good.

Total successes always worry me.

They will have to test again after analysis.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 20 May 2009 19:15

Shiv Boss
I agree, first time Total success is recipe for total failure. In the guise of these malfunctions we are testing and perfecting our missiles. Who knows if there was genuine flaw in missile or something was done intentionally for more testing.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 20 May 2009 19:23

Nihat wrote:I have my doubts about "Sakaal News" as a proper source , plus when these unknown and reliable sources say something to DDM , it should not be taken at face value.

Remember Rafale !!

Yes seems your doubts are in right direction:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Agni- ... io-/462749

Sources said that the trial was a success and the missile was fired with “clockwork precision” from a rail-based mobile launcher. The event was also witnessed by senior officers of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

this is the first time that it has been fired independently by the Strategic Forces. What this means is that the Strategic Forces validated their standard operating procedures and drills on the nuclear-capable missile and fully operationalised and tested it in a ‘war-like scenario’.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 20 May 2009 19:44

Regardless of test failed or was success, cant understand why there are conflicting reports!

Why would so many reports suggest the test was success but only one said failed? or just DDM thing?

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 May 2009 20:22

Sanjay wrote:The primary of S-1 was supposed to be FBF.

Excerpt from India Todays 1998 interview of BARC’s Satinder Kumar Sikka :

The explosive yields for H-bombs are usually in megatons. Isn't India's claim of 45 kilotons a bit low for such devices?

That isn't true. The yields for a hydrogen bomb can vary from as little as 1 kilotonne to over 60 megatons. We kept our yield deliberately low to minimise damage to villages which are just 5 km from the blast site. Controlling yields does require a certain sophistication in design. Ours was a two-stage thermonuclear device. In early models the first stage was usually an atom bomb. We never revealed this before but our first stage was a boosted fission bomb which uses far more advanced technology.

"Our H-Bomb is not a fizzle and we are not afraid of peer review"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 May 2009 20:50

does anyone know how exactly the villagers in pokhran (khetolai village et al) make a
living in such harsh conditions ?

couldnt they be relocated to a more greener area in Raj and test area enlarged ?

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 20 May 2009 21:04

TOI has added its worth but is nowhere near confirming Sakaal Times:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 552923.cms

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 May 2009 21:11

Baljeet wrote:Shiv Boss
I agree, first time Total success is recipe for total failure.

True Baljeet.

A rocket is a rocket. Once you get the design right it is likely to work consistently. Like PSLV - which is a mature design.

Agni has been going through iterations Agni 1, 2, 3, 3.1416 etc and periodic testing is essential. If something has gone wrong. Fine something has gone wrong. Better that it goes wrong in a test rather than when it is heading towards lizard's musharraf.

Particularly (I am guessing) one needs to know what storage and transport by the "user" does.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 20 May 2009 21:13

Anujan wrote:"Hybrid" might stand for a hybrid of fast and slow explosives. It might mean that we still do not have a two point, air lens, hollow pit implosion system. This is the starting point for reducing the diameter and weight of the system and also for going to prolate designs, which are a better fit for warheads. Hollow pits are more reliable for FBF designs and give better efficiency as well.

Chill pill. Prolate design is old hand at BARC, and were extensively tested at Pok-II/Shakti test series

It is for a reason that BR Missile pages show it that way for discerning eyes. But beware of some subtle Chanakyan obfuscation in those pages that yours faithfully spins

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 20 May 2009 21:23

Comrades all - informed other sources in the media have asked about the Sakaal story and it was deemed fit for manure. I am checking the TOI piece.

I was warned - never trust an e-paper.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 20 May 2009 21:25

This too says A II test failed.

Test failed

Has same sakaal theory.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 20 May 2009 21:26

Word for word same story as Sakaal. Let's just say the story was deemed wrong when checked by someone most of us know.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 20 May 2009 22:18

So far no official source has confirmed it eitherway.......

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 May 2009 22:22

Which would mean its not a wash out but not a 400% success also..

The scene was very similar after the Brahmos test where two diametrically opposite results were being bandied about but finally, the truth turned out to be in the middle ground..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2009 22:26

No matter it gives an opportunity to fix any flaws if there are. usually F/S separation is tricky especially for the Agni series.

The second Agni TDS did the same thing. Unfortunalety it was declared a success and the scieintists did not contradict the Minister. Wings of Fire talks about it.

If the Sakaal report is true there was no stage sep. And this is a known fault of Agni series.

One easy confirmation is for ROCKSIM run with the F/S no separated. Should give ~ 293 km down range

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 20 May 2009 22:44

Ramana, the Agni TD second test was deemed a "partial success" because of the problem wrt separation.

In this instance, a single e-paper has published a report picked up by Express Buzz without any authentication.

All I can say is that I am checking media sources and working on ascertaining what is going on. But initial suggestion was to ignore Sakaal.

Also not the very contradictory report in the Hindu which speaks of splashdown after a 10 minute flight:

http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/20/stories ... 331300.htm

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2009 22:54

Sanjay, I think the Express Buzz story with reporter name is sourced from the local area. The Hindu story is not and could be based on initial reports based on trajectory simulations.

‘‘The missile deviated from its path after the first stage separation and was meandering at an angle of 180 degree midway. Though it was coordinated to cover a distance of nearly 2000 km, within just 127 seconds it covered 203 km before plunging into the sea,’’ said the source.

‘‘The guidance system can correct the missile’s midway path deviation if it behaves erratically at an angle of 40 to 60 degree but not beyond that,’’ said a defence scientist. ‘‘The disaster might have happened due to design and manufacturing faults,’’ he added.

What I think happened is F/S sep blew the TVC off-kilter in one direction so it veered 180 degree off the flightpath. TVC for motors is in orthogonal directions. Maybe separation cut the cable from debris and lost TVC. If so the fix is wrap extra tape on the cable. Such debris is random so it might not be a mfg fault and did not show up earlier.

My question is why didnt it auto/self-destruct when that happened? And why didnt range issue command destruct when there was flight path deviation of such magnitude?

The reassuring thing is the statement that the control system can control upto 40-60 degree off flight path angle.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 20 May 2009 23:01

Ramana, give it a few days and we will see if any confirmation of Rout's story comes through. AFAIK no reporters are based on Wheeler's island. That said, I am trying to ascertain his credibility. ExpressBuzz is not always reliable so I will continue to check.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 20 May 2009 23:06

http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.i ... ve-ridleys

Missiles threaten Olive Ridleys
Author(s): Hemant Kumar Rout

Date: 07/06/2008

Source: Sahara Times (New Delhi)

Wildlife Lovers and forest officials in Orissa are of the view that the missile tests by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) off the Orissa coast have affected the mass nesting of the Olive Ridley sea turtles.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 20 May 2009 23:30

^^^
As logically as day follows night, so shall this news about the oliver ridley turtles' habitat being disturbed appear in the indian DDM in the proximity of a large missile test.

There are at least 13 villages in close proximity of 5 -15 kms of the test site at khetolai. IIRC there is a village in the area where the Nav Tala test was conducted (S4 or 5) where there is a village Nav Tala which is now evacuated? (Or atleast I remember reading something to this effect).

The most ideal site will be somewhere where there is no habitation for 40 -50 kms atleast in either direction.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 21 May 2009 00:06

Arun_S wrote:Chill pill. Prolate design is old hand at BARC, and were extensively tested at Pok-II/Shakti test series
It is for a reason that BR Missile pages show it that way for discerning eyes. But beware of some subtle Chanakyan obfuscation in those pages that yours faithfully spins

Thats soothing to know. BTW any rakshaks can get access to this ? Describes a miniaturized lightweight multipoint initiation...

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 21 May 2009 00:46

TOI Story (headline purposefully changed, so that posters read the full story.)

NEW DELHI: In a step towards making the 2,000-km-plus Agni-II fully operational, the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) conducted a "training test-firing'' of the nuclear-capable missile on Tuesday.

Though the test was conducted from Wheeler Island, near Dhamra off the Orissa coast, at about 10.05 am, defence officials till late evening were reluctant to dub the test "fully successful''.

"The missile launch did take off properly but it's difficult to say whether the complete test was successful in meeting all the laid-down flight objectives,'' said a senior official.

"It can be called a success or a failure only after a detailed analysis of telemtry data generated by the flight-test. It was a completely user-driven trial, with the Army missile unit under the SFC conducting the test,'' he added.

Is there any 'official' presee release, where officials are quoted by name, not 'sources'?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 21 May 2009 00:51

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=48782

Agni – 2 test

Agni – 2 was flight tested by Strategic Forces Team at 10:05 Hrs. today at wheeler Island, near Dhamra, off Orissa Coast.

The launch was witnessed by senior officers of DRDO and Armed Forces. Flight test was conducted as part of training exercise of Army.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 21 May 2009 01:02

IMHO, the problem is not with the missile, but the author of the article.

Several attempts to contact ‘Agni project’ director Avinash Chander and ITR director S P Dash turned futile.

That may be reason they got pissed off and just wrote something to fill up the papers. Failure news attracts more readers anytime! DDMitis is more than a mere nuisance these days - hope ultimately someone is held responsible..

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 21 May 2009 02:01

ramana wrote:No matter it gives an opportunity to fix any flaws if there are. usually F/S separation is tricky especially for the Agni series.

The second Agni TDS did the same thing. Unfortunalety it was declared a success and the scieintists did not contradict the Minister. Wings of Fire talks about it.

If the Sakaal report is true there was no stage sep. And this is a known fault of Agni series.

One easy confirmation is for ROCKSIM run with the F/S no separated. Should give ~ 293 km down range

It does.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 May 2009 03:42

Agni disrupts flight path
50 planes diverted with south route closed for launch

ChandraS · Post by **ChandraS** » 21 May 2009 08:12

Gerard wrote:Agni disrupts flight path
50 planes diverted with south route closed for launch

From the above report:

Thanks to the diversion, domestic flights had to cover an extra 100 nautical miles and the overflying ones, around 150 nautical miles.

Isn't this a routine thing during missile tests? Then why the sarcasm? Or is it because of the takleef due to testing of something that will benefit India?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 May 2009 08:58

sound and light pollution that blankets the earth have also deeply affected the
mating habits and fertility of humans in every country except darkearth zones in central africa and deep in amazon.

I demand that all music, horns and lights be banned so people can nest in peace.

jmaxwell · Post by **jmaxwell** » 21 May 2009 09:04

shiv wrote: Good.

Total successes always worry me.

They will have to test again after analysis.

; perhaps only Anujan can compare with your art for drenching posts with sarcasm.

To the rest of you:
So TOIlet and an unknown entity SackBalls, post an unverified, unsubstantiated and statistically bogus article on missile test failure, and even the jingos on this forum start posting "oh crap, our missile is a dud"? This is really starting to piss me off. Its like continuing to buy your cars from a usedcar salesman in spite of having purchased lemons from him in the past.

Show some faith guys. Repeat after me:
"This article is typical of the trash produced by our defense journalists. The missile test IS a success, unless proven otherwise by PIB or a senior DRDO official."

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 21 May 2009 10:47

Anujan wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Chill pill. Prolate design is old hand at BARC, and were extensively tested at Pok-II/Shakti test series
It is for a reason that BR Missile pages show it that way for discerning eyes. But beware of some subtle Chanakyan obfuscation in those pages that yours faithfully spins
Thats soothing to know. BTW any rakshaks can get access to this ? Describes a miniaturized lightweight multipoint initiation...

Saarji, I have it. Can you give any email ID?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 May 2009 10:54

edited

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 21 May 2009 10:54

Nikhil T wrote:Saarji, I have it. Can you give any email ID?

Thanks much, cant wait to get my paws on it the email address is lakshmic at the rate of fastmail.us

Also rakshaks, relax. The "other" missile Agni I has a single stage and more than enough range. I hope Agni II gets into all kind of problems, foreseen and unforeseen --- there is a very intelligent lady taking notes and designing the next one. Have faith.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 21 May 2009 11:44

Anujan wrote: Also rakshaks, relax. The "other" missile Agni I has a single stage and more than enough range. I hope Agni II gets into all kind of problems, foreseen and unforeseen --- there is a very intelligent lady taking notes and designing the next one. Have faith.

I'd love to share your optimism, Anujan. I am being completely honest when I say that there is no limit to the respect and admiration I have for the team behind Agni-III and beyond. But while the lady you referred to takes notes and puts her plans into motion, our potential aggressor beyond 700km is taking notes too.

Agni-II has been around for so freakin long and it is only now undergoing random-selection user trials? If this news report is true then thank God we didn't have a real conflict and there wasn't a nuclear warhead at the business end of this missile, right? Quoting BR's Missile Armoury page, "On 14 March 2002, Defence Minister George Fernandes informed Indian Parliament that the Agni-II has entered the production phase and is under induction". Agni-II is also classified on the BR page as an operational missile. Yet it only took 7 years for a random-selection user trial, and better still - the test might have been a failure by an order of magnitude of range in km.

If this latest news report is true then lets hope our potential aggressor beyond 700km doesn't feel itchy in the next 7 years or so that it is going to take for Agni-III to be user-trialled successfully, yeah?

Or better still, like jmaxwell said, lets have faith that this news report is a hoax.

Better still, lets just keep smoking the good stuff.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 21 May 2009 16:31

PratikDas - I would like you to read this first from a defense journalist accredited to one of the daily papers:

"Dear sanjay,

each day for two hours including me, reporters from the newspapers mentioned below sit in MOD spokesman's office...but I have never seen this Hemant Rout.

If the spokesman does not want to say anything then he simply says so. He does not lie. I have not seen/heard him lie even once.

Now your question how soon we get info abt the success of test...they issue a statement for the media after which we all sit around Sitanshu Kar and he responds to our qs. I asked him abt this report of failure he just shrugged it off as nonsense.

Then I asked my source in DRDO and he said the test was successful. So..."

There is an issue of credibility at present - again I don't what to malign Mr. Rout unfairly but this is the feedback I obtained when investigating the veracity of the report.

Kind of interesting - ExpressBuzz did not think fit to carry Rout's report in its E-Paper for either 20th May or 21st May.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 May 2009 18:27

Sanjay wrote:I don't what to malign Mr. Rout unfairly.

Maybe his name is actually Hemant Rot?

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 21 May 2009 18:43

This journo seems to have worked with Indian Express too as defence journo.

http://www.indianexpress.com/columnist/hemantrout/