Vote for the MRCA

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Which fighter would you select for the IAF's MRCA?

Poll ended at 30 Aug 2009 02:08

Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet
31
12%
Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper
10
4%
Eurofighter Typhoon
44
17%
Saab Gripen NG
13
5%
RAC MiG MiG-35
46
18%
Dassault Rafale
109
43%
 
Total votes: 253

KrishG
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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby KrishG » 17 Aug 2009 01:49

The question is not only how much ToT but also the quality of it. We can imagine the technological difference between Zhuk AESA and RBE2 AESA. Both come with ToT, but the latter will cost much more and is probably much better.

That aside, can better chances of winning the deal force France into offering full ToT of M-88 ?? I don't think it's a part of France's offer as of know.

Katare
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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Katare » 17 Aug 2009 02:19

F1x where x= 6 or 8 :mrgreen:

No delay, no lafda, fast smooth induction with lota battle tested munition

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 02:33

Cain Marko wrote:
however desperate they may be, they are not stupid. giving us complete tech (although that is practically impossible for reasons which would make this post too long if explained) or even 95% tech, it will make us virtually independent, effectively cutting off *any* chances of future sales.

But but saar, they are already at this point - india either goes independent or western, Mig knows this. The MRCA is in all probability india's last phoren purchase. There is no question of "cutting off future sales". This sale is the mother of all sales and it is the finality of it that makes it so not the just the $$$s involved.
So they give all the damn TOT for a bird they are not so hot about any way @ a decent price where they can make some profit (if not a killing) OR get nothing, now or in the future. This is their last shot at the IAF pie (same is the case with the rest) so why not give away all doodads/TOT for a bird like the 35, which is hardly their premier platform? They almost did it with the MKI and even the frenchies were willing to do it with the M2k-5.
as I said, they are not stupid. they will always hold something back, it's the prudent thing to do. we would, if we were in the same situation.

What can they hold back? India is already in the Pakfa program something league ahead of any fulcrum, India today is on the verge of total indigenization in man aspects of its defence production, this is a last chance for big $$$s. The ej-200 guys said as much when they noted that "we are willing to give them all the tech they want for the lCA engines, because if we deny it now, they'll get it in a couple of years anyway".

cm.


Your post well articulates my POV to. I think this is the sentiment at the Mig camp now, there is an nuance in this deal compared to past deals of the same nature as you rightly put it. Its more of an do or die and also has a lot of strategic importance attached to it. I get the feeling too the Russians may go all the way on this to get the mulla.

Yet i would give the benefit of the doubt to Rahuls POV, because after Gorshkov we know the Russians want to milk us dry, even this Mig-35 manufacturing is not going to take place before 2014! So that should really weigh on IAFs selection.

I would agree with you that if not the Mig the Rafel would be the next best bet.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby nachiket » 17 Aug 2009 03:20

Since this is not a secret ballot, I'd really like to know the 3 guys who voted for the F-16 and why?

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby BijuShet » 17 Aug 2009 03:29

Gerard wrote:
Rahul M wrote:why isn't there a 'none of the above' option ?


Because one of those six is going to be selected by the CCS. There is no going outside the contenders who responded to the RFP.

Dont underestimate the power of the CAG and natasha lobby. One by one if all vendors get blacklisted then None of the Above may become a reality(already seen this happen with IA and its Artillery needs :cry: ).

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Chinmayanand » 17 Aug 2009 05:38

I voted for the Rafale and its winning 400% here so far. 8) But i feel, this deal will goto either Typhoon or Boeing.Out of these, maybe Boeing. :(

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby shiv » 17 Aug 2009 06:44

Rahul M wrote:as I said, there is no such thing as full tech transfer.


I am tempted to support this statement by using a very rude analogy but I will desist.

The other point is that when you have very high technology that someone is "willing to transfer" - one has to have the industrial capacity to absorb that technology. India is highly variable in this area - while India can "absorb" some very high tech stuff - I think there are areas where India is currently incapable of making good use of a tech transfer ensuring that we will import anyway.

There is a chicken and egg equation here. If India had the industrial capability to take up some high tech stuff - we would already be doing it.

In the actual "fly-off" testing I am sure many of the contenders will do well. But in the nitty gritty of negotiations about what kind of infrastructure has to be set up to manufacture 200,000 different parts and if it does not make economic sense to manufacture all of them - how much will an abundant supply of imported spares cost and the guarantees that supplies will continue through all geopolitical upheavals for the next 20 years.

This is where the US may score over others because they are offering a "less than their latest" in technology and might possibly (depending on how the negotiations go) be willing to part with things that will pull India up without pushing the US down - which can happen if any nation wantonly supplies its best tech to any other nation.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Y I Patel » 17 Aug 2009 08:58

Rafael for being the weapons system for which none of our likely adversaries have an answer. Has the greatest potential for future growth. Can be the tip of the IAF spear for the next two decades.

The French will have to work extra hard at the offsets to make it cost effective, and may get creative by bundling Rafael with Mirage upgrades, LCA engine technology/upgrades, and AESA for every IAF aircraft and its dog.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby John Snow » 17 Aug 2009 09:06

the real Yogi (I) Patel
I was praying for you to surface, please do post in the War "over" or "in" Tibet.
I aslo wish our good ol China expert Vikram Vayas comes back.

Please do post your thought updated since last you thought about it.

As usual in concured with your choice and did vote for it. You are right it can be made a great package deal in effective tie up IAF as a captive customer to times to come, which means the Rusian lobby will leave no stone unturned to scuttle it :wink:

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby atma » 17 Aug 2009 10:46

Since this is not a secret ballot, I'd really like to know the 3 guys who voted for the F-16 and why?


I am one, guilty as charged.

Cheap, reliable and good chance of the entire assembly plant moving from Texas to India, as Amir Khan is giving up on it. Moreover when our friendly neighbours to the west need spares, we can show them the middle finger! With over 400 examples in service world wide, this would be a big boost to our industry, just servicing them and providing parts.

We have got to get over " the kid in the candy store mentality".

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby dipak » 17 Aug 2009 11:58

Hoping against hope - went for Rafael, though I get a feeling that Superbug is going to win the race.
- Non-US, non-Rusi (no EUMA, risk diversification)
- Decent armament-mix, capable platform
- Single country involved (unlike Eurofighter, too many cooks)
- Dassault loved by IAF (Mirage)

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby nrshah » 17 Aug 2009 14:28

Good to see that French and Russian are leading the race.

-Nitin

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby girish.r » 17 Aug 2009 17:33

durgesh wrote:I voted for the Rafale and its winning 400% here so far. 8) But i feel, this deal will goto either Typhoon or Boeing.Out of these, maybe Boeing. :(


Yep! My vote also goes to Dassault Rafale. And even i think its going to be boeing all da way :|

I still feel that LCA should be given priority. And to safeguard against any mis adventure, procure more SU MKI.

Im hope IAF gets what it needs. Rather than the babus needs.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby enqyoob » 17 Aug 2009 19:07

Only twin engined planes should be in this competition, since LCA is already in production. F-16 (and that an old version) is there just due to politics (Dubya's home state) but now that consideration is gone. No aircraft plants in Illinois, AFAIK. Unless at the last minute F-16 morphs into F-22EUMA or F-35EUMA.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Singha » 17 Aug 2009 19:49

F-solah-IN inshallah. only 2% vote - but it will win.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby ShauryaT » 17 Aug 2009 20:39

Singha wrote:F-solah-IN inshallah. only 2% vote - but it will win.
I have been told the same. Beats the wits out of me, but this bugger is an Indian and has actually sat in it for joy rides and wines and dines with all the defense fellows both on US and Indian side.

Rafale and Mig leading on these polls is not surprising. Shows how trusting BRF really is to the big Khan. Looks like we want to pay a price, either by way of quality with the Mig or a severe cost penalty to go with Rafale. Do our babus and netas think like that too? Can the nation afford to pay this price? The verdict seems to be anything that will work but American (not on technical merit).

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby koti » 17 Aug 2009 20:50

Go Fulcrum go........Invest what remains in L/MCA
I'm a little canjooos too....

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Drevin » 17 Aug 2009 20:57

Wow ..... I hope there are a few Rafale fans inside GOI. Or expect heart break for majority of BRF. :P

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby PratikDas » 17 Aug 2009 20:58

nrshah wrote:Good to see that French and Russian are leading the race.

What I don't get is if the winner was going to be French or Russian anyway then what was the need for the whole competition? Such a huge waste of time.

This leads me to suspect that the winner might surprise everyone.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Gerard » 18 Aug 2009 00:58

PratikDas wrote:This leads me to suspect that the winner might surprise everyone.


Note that the poll isn't which aircraft will actually win. It is which aircraft you would pick if in a position of power to do so.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby PratikDas » 18 Aug 2009 01:38

Gerard wrote:
PratikDas wrote:This leads me to suspect that the winner might surprise everyone.


Note that the poll isn't which aircraft will actually win. It is which aircraft you would pick if in a position of power to do so.

Ah, I stand corrected! :)

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Gerard » 18 Aug 2009 01:40

We can perhaps have a poll of which aircraft people expect to win after this one closes.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby kaangeya » 18 Aug 2009 04:18

Dassault Rafale all the way. 8)

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Virupaksha » 18 Aug 2009 04:31

Gerard wrote:We can perhaps have a poll of which aircraft people expect to win after this one closes.

and then a poll to see which aircraft they least prefer, then another one to see which one they expect IAF to prefer, then which one MoD to finally decide, then which radar in which engine one prefers, then which engine they prefer and so on...... :twisted:

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby John Snow » 18 Aug 2009 04:35

All the way from
Image

to
Image

to
Image

Now on to

Image

GO IAF

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby abhiti » 18 Aug 2009 05:16

You wouldn't guess by the amount of discussion on MRCA thread on Mig 35 and F-18 that Rafale will be a front runner. Seems like there is a silent majority on the forum.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby nachiket » 18 Aug 2009 05:33

abhiti wrote:You wouldn't guess by the amount of discussion on MRCA thread on Mig 35 and F-18 that Rafale will be a front runner. Seems like there is a silent majority on the forum.


Ah I think I may know why. You have to say which aircraft you want to see win in this thread. The other thread is about realistic chances. The rafale is so expensive it is unlikely to win. The Mig-35 is cheap and the GOI seems to be enamored by massaland right now. So the discussion on Mig-35 and superbug.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Anant » 18 Aug 2009 07:13

Boy, lots of French homers on here 8) Between the die hard Russian homers and French homers, you'd think the Rafale and Mig-35 have chances. I am American Born (Not so Confused) Still Very Much Desi so I am rooting for the Hornet. I am no expert at aviation (I am a scientist) and nor have I seen the other contenders fly but I have seen the Hornet and Super Hornet up close and in the air and both blew my layman's mind. I think many of you underestimate the SH in action. I had a chance to see it both in the Midwest and in California. It may not be the MKI but matched with its avionics suite, its a sweet bird. Moreover, It is increasingly clear to me America needs and wants India and as such considers it more of a mature partner. I think the MRCA deal is just the tip of the anvil. Between this, the P8's, Super Herc's and god knows what, this relationship (US/India) is being taken to a new level. I know folks who work on the line in St. Louis and one supervisor told me they are extremely excited to try to win the Indian order. And they were nothing if laudatory about the IAF. The key disconnect, and its a big one and I don't deny it, is to stop coddling the lawless country next to India. The minute the US does that, then I'll be an unabashed Hornet homer. But give the SH a chance. The IAF knows its a good bird. That's why it was short listed, all arm chair analysis aside.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby kaangeya » 18 Aug 2009 08:00

The Rafale is the truly multirole heavy-medium land based aircraft. I know Massa Khan will turn out a great product, but am v.v.concerned about what Khan will do to keep the spoilt brats next door quiet. The French OTOH are amoral. No probs with that ever! And they have delivered a great product every time.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby shukla » 18 Aug 2009 08:17

Super Hornet all the way...

The IAF MMRCA selection process appears to emphasize attack potential and low cost of ownership, not air combat capability. Clearly, the IAF is not looking for the most maneuverable aircraft so it's going to be an uphill battle for the MiG-35 despite the crazy rate of turn that it can achieve.

There can be little doubt the F/A-18E/F will ace the radar, navigation equipment, self-defense suites and electronic warfare evaluation trials with its AN/APG-79, with none of the other contenders, except MiG-35, having a matured AESA. The Phazotron Zhuk AE is matured but first generation. In the past the IAF has shown significant interest in the Super Hornets AESA - See http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/200 ... /index.php

If the IAF plays by book then it should be a cakewalk for the Gripen. (ticks all the boxes & more.. & more importantly has lowest cost of ownership)

In the end though, the Geo-Political spin off & benefits by buying the Super Hornet from the US (to consolidate the already growing solidarity between the two nations) will be too big to ignore

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Anant » 18 Aug 2009 08:22

Compared to the US, the French have armed the Pakistanis even more. I reference the Agostas, the Mirages, the Atlantique and whatever else French they have. The Pakistanis have gotten little since alzheimed Ronald Raygun let office. The only thing they are getting is more soya f-16's and I think artillery and the orions. Personally, I think the US should send them 0. Will that happen overnight? No. But as the US loses more troops in Afghanistan and they realize the land of the pure is involved you can better believe that more arms will evaporate. Also as China becomes stronger, they will realize that they finally have to let India become the natural superpower that is its ultimate course in destiny. So I being a SH homer am looking forward to seeing it in IAF roundels. Go Super Hornet all the way. :wink:

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Y I Patel » 18 Aug 2009 08:26

Thanks for the welcome back, John Snow. I have been bobbing in and out of BRF lately, but have really adopted a shoot and scoot strategy. I try to keep up with China threads, of course, for old times sake. Will post something there out of respect to you, but have you noticed an element of 'Groundhog Day' creeping into those threads lately?

Back to this thread... Rafael gives India a chance to think big and negotiate brashly. They are hungry for a win after loosing to F18s all over the place. Also, this is not just about how the plane does right now. F18 (my next choice) will max out on its development capability long before Rafael will. Ironically, I would have loved the original bug modernized with contemporary electronics. The superbug is great in that department, but has gotten too big mainly due to US Navy's range requirements.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Rahul M » 18 Aug 2009 08:45

Compared to the US, the French have armed the Pakistanis even more.

yep, but not for free. unkil OTOH has provided the weapons AND paid for it.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby AmitR » 18 Aug 2009 09:38

Compared to the US, the French have armed the Pakistanis even more.


This sounds exactly like the way Pakis keep on whining over why they are not treated in equal terms with India.
It is a free market economy and a country will sell to whomsoever they feel will be able to pay for the stuff.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby govardhanks » 18 Aug 2009 11:26

I just don't know much technical data. but just want to ask everyone. Tell the name of the a/c which only india can have and neither pakis or chinese will be able to get them. ???? :(

Pakis already have F16( AESA radar etc. can make the difference). French Rafale can also be offered to them if they pay for it(If rafale fails to win the deal then pakis wil try to get them!!) and all fallows the same. :eek:

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby John Snow » 18 Aug 2009 11:59

govardhan ji>>Dont worry Pakis are only gifted not talented but always tainted.
For a long time they wont be able buy a/c, they are heavily tied to Thandaar program.
***
Added later
Yogi ji I thanked in you in that thread but will do again, thanks for obliging.

yes it is just like groundhog day, and BRF admins are like mayors of Punxsutawney :mrgreen: (just kidding BRAdmins)

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Charu » 18 Aug 2009 13:19

Its going to be Rafale for sure !!!!

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby krishnan » 18 Aug 2009 13:32

BR favorite ##

Was that BR fav Number 2?

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby adel ansari » 18 Aug 2009 18:08

This is my first post on BR. I am an Indian staying in Gulf and must admit that I am a new devout for the fighter jets and learned that IAf really does pack a punch , BTW Why isn't anyone talking about Eurofighter Typhoon.... I think it is really a good aircraft, with EADS offering India partnership in production, It maybe a bit expensive but it really is the best after MKI.. I think in long run 80 Typhoon and 80 Gripen NG will serve well for IAF.. I voted for Typhoon..

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Nihat » 18 Aug 2009 18:44

F-16 and gripen , both single engine crafts seem out of the running according to BR. Ironically if IAF had insisted on qualifying purely mid range MRCA from RFP then these would have been the only aircrafts in the fray , alongside one more.


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