What is the effect of Jaswant Singh being expelled

[RayC]

What is the effect of Jaswant Singh being expelled and was it justified?

I am opening this thread since Ramana objected elsewhere.

I know that there will be many on the Moderation team who will be furious with me, but this is an issue that has perplexed me.

Jaswant was a statesman, a scholar. He was no politician. Army grooming maybe.

Rajnath, on the other hand, is a politician but not a statesman even by a whisker! One wonders if he know where is Patagonia.

He was quick however to up the ante without reading the book and working on that Narad Muni Karan Thapar's Interview.

A party with morals! A party with a difference! And yet, a party where one believes the constitution states that a show cause notice is served before action, merely telephones and dismisses.

I have heard that a Muslim man can on a telephone call say 'Talaq' three times and that is OK by Islamic Law.

I am surprised that Rajnath believes it is acceptable to divorce its stalwart leaders and I believe that is party is totally against such norms!!

The we have the smug looking walrus moustachioed Bhagawat lurking behind the scenes.

So. what's up?

The only opposition and the only party with some nationalist agenda going down the drain?

[enqyoob]

I can say: "I told u so!" IOW, BJP is disbanding itself following my recommendation, very effectively. Nationalists need to look elsewhere, not down the drain where the BJP prefers to reside.

[RayC]

I can say: "I told u so!" IOW, BJP is disbanding itself following my recommendation, very effectively. Nationalists need to look elsewhere, not down the drain where the BJP prefers to reside.

You little mole!

[munna]

^^ One word Brig. Sir "Raj Mad". The jokers who form the central core are headless chickens with no popular support. The entire central leadership cabal of Jaitley, Advani, Rajnath and Namo too have been humbled and discredited at the hustings. The state leaderships in various states are slowly questioning the authority of these rootless wonders and their ability to get votes nationally. Jaswant Singh was unfortunate victim of the sudden drive by central jokers to display some mardanagi when they failed to display it against Raje. Jaswantji was an easy and non-RSS victim whose services were considered dispensable and so they did. The reality of BJP core is actually a milder version of Rahul Mehta's wild allegations and that is the sad truth. The core is rotten, self-serving and now corrupt too, not a good situation.

[ramana]

RayC. The modern BJP is the outgrowth of the old Janata Party of 1977 into which the following for our discussion merged - Jana Sangh, Swatantra Party. These were the two right of center parties of the 70s. Of these the former had its core supporters who were really right of the merged party and viewed all others with distrust. What we are seeing is the disenchantment of the groups that came together to form the BJP. The last two elections have caused a rethink and what we see is the churning. The current leadership feels it can retain its core support if it gets rid of its elements they dont trust. However they dotn understand the core support goes to those who can deliver on the core interests.

[vera_k]

Jaswant Singh's expulsion was overdue after Kandahar. Enough said. They might now be in with a chance to win the Maharashtra assembly.

[shiv]

I want someone to buy his book and reserve it for me. I will pay of course - just in case it gets banned in Karnataka.

The BJP is lost without a plan or an ideology. In fact I think the RSS is right, although Jaswant is right about the RSS too.

[shiv]

Jaswant Singh's expulsion was overdue after Kandahar. Enough said. They might now be in with a chance to win the Maharashtra assembly.

Jaswant went to Kandahar when he was foreign minister. At that time Advani was home minister and IC 814 had neither been prevented from taking off from Chandigarh nor were commandos available at short notice. What would have been a home ministry problem was converted into a foreign ministry problem.

And Vajyapee was PM and the terrorist handover could not have been done without his acquiescence.

I believe that making Jaswant the fall guy and letting off the other fossils is a mistake - although the mistake does not bother me personally. If the party wants to become a party of blind donkeys - so be it - they have been heading that way for a while.

IMO first and foremost Advani needs to go. It is pure sycophancy of the Gandhi family genre to allow that geriatric to remain. As I get older I am getting more and more convinced that there should be a "retirement/superannuation age" for politicians.

Modi's banning of the book sound exactly like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. What Hindutva? Karnatak will follow I guess.

Why not let thinking people read the book? I will tell you the reason. If you can think - you do not belong in the BJP and therefore you are an "enemy of Hindutva". This is a clear case of the elite deciding that the non elite will be misled by Jaswant's book. This plays right into the hands of those who might want to accuse the BJP of being a high handed elitist forward caste party. What a pathetic bunch of morons we have right at the top. The RSS is right.

The BJP is as good as dead in its current format.

[negi]

Whoa why is JS on the receiving end for Kandahar on BRF.... I want to ask gung ho rakshaks what did they expect GOI or then BJP government to do when faced with such a tricky situation ?.Releasing 3 militants along with couple of hundred million dollars for securing release of 176 innocent lives is any time a good decision...given the suicidal decision making of the INC and post independent Governments time and again this was not a bad decision by any angle.

Yes I have serious reservations about JS's comments which surfaced in TOI and DDM (I am yet to read his book); being a matured politician and someone well informed of public sentiments he should have been careful about saying/writing on such a subject.Having said that his expulsion from the BJP was one of the most shameful chapters in the history of the party.

I was expecting the BJP leadership to confront this issue more positively and seek clarification from JS ; but then what else could have been expected from a bunch of arrogant bozos who were searching for a scape goat after the recent debacle in recent LS elections.

And now I know why there is so much paranoia in India when it comes to Modi ; he as usual banned the book as a knee jerk reaction .

Imho BJP has clearly shown that they are no different from likes of SS or even MNS when it comes to confronting alternate views or ideology .

Rajnath singh (he has single handedly lead the BJP down the toilet when it comes to UP ), LKA (his priorities have always been wrong , raking up irrelevant and sensational issues ) both should have been booted out after the LS results.

[vera_k]

Jaswant went to Kandahar when he was foreign minister. At that time Advani was home minister and IC 814 had neither been prevented from taking off from Chandigarh nor were commandos available at short notice. What would have been a home ministry problem was converted into a foreign ministry problem.

And Vajyapee was PM and the terrorist handover could not have been done without his acquiescence.

I believe that making Jaswant the fall guy and letting off the other fossils is a mistake - although the mistake does not bother me personally.

Yes, but the cleanup has to start somewhere.

[vera_k]

And now I know why there is so much paranoia in India when it comes to Modi ; he as usual banned the book as a knee jerk reaction

If there's one thing Modi should have learnt by now is that it pays to take preemptive action. See below -

Congress supports Guj govt's ban on Jaswant's book

[negi]

Btw thank you Brigadier RayC.

[shiv]

The RSS stated that they can name at least 75 people for the top jobs in th BJP. That is a as clear a verbal kick up the backside as any. IOW the entire leadership can be replaced and no harm will come to the party. The thing is the RSS is not bound by "five year plans" with an eye on the next election. The BJP has built up core leadership on an election based agenda as opposed to an ideology based agenda.

The BJP discovered that its ideology does not necessarily have electoral support - a fact that is doomed to make it a "fringe party" unless they can come up with a more inclusive agenda. They tried - but failed miserably because the fossils at the top have no vision. It may turn out that Jaswant had greater vision. But I need to read his book to comment on that.

[shiv]

Yes, but the cleanup has to start somewhere.

Advani
Advani
Advani

[AnimeshP]

Jaswant went to Kandahar when he was foreign minister. At that time Advani was home minister and IC 814 had neither been prevented from taking off from Chandigarh nor were commandos available at short notice. What would have been a home ministry problem was converted into a foreign ministry problem.

And Vajyapee was PM and the terrorist handover could not have been done without his acquiescence.

I believe that making Jaswant the fall guy and letting off the other fossils is a mistake - although the mistake does not bother me personally.

Yes, but the cleanup has to start somewhere.

But shouldn't the clean-up start with the guy whose responsibility it was to prevent the plane from taking off in the first place ??? As Shiv pointed out, it was the home ministry which dropped the ball there so why should the foreign minister have to pay the price ... that too 9 years after the fact !!
All said and done, I have a much higher regard for Jaswant Singh than for the current BJP president and LKA ...

[vera_k]

^^^

Advani can't go until they get his successor lined up.

[AnimeshP]

^^^

Advani can't go until they get his successor lined up.

and when that might be ... and can we expect an equally unceremonious exit for him ???

[shiv]

And now I know why there is so much paranoia in India when it comes to Modi ; he as usual banned the book as a knee jerk reaction

If there's one thing Modi should have learnt by now is that it pays to take preemptive action. See below -

Congress supports Guj govt's ban on Jaswant's book

With utmost respect to Sardar Patel, I must point out that a blind acceptance of every leader as "completely good" or "completely bad" does not make for good analysis of history. For us on his forum it is convenient to trash MK Gandhi and Nehru. We have reached a stage of maturity where we can say Gandhi and Nehru did some things well but made other mistakes.

If there is a different viewpoint about Patel from a man who has actually served a so called "Nationalist party" for 30 years and no one wants to hear it - it means that the party and its nationalism may only be a veneer - a coating with no depth.

Did the "Chinan Baithak" allow JS to defend himself? they could have asked him to attend and explain himself. No. They kicked him out before he could defend himself - showing that the BJP leadership were afraid that he probably would defend himself successfully and other fossils would lose support.

I would have been sad if I had continued to respect the BJP. But over the last couple of years I lost all respect for the BJP. This is only to be expected from a good for nothing bunch of self serving politicians. I recall pointing this out on this forum before the general elections

[csharma]

I was wondering if a discussion on Jaswant Singh expulsion which is a political topic should be discussed in BR since political discussions are not allowed.

Jaswant Singh is just an MP at the moment and surely his expulsion from BJP would have an impact on BJP and not on the country strategically.

Or is BR selectively applying the new rules just because moderators want to discuss the issue.

[shiv]

I was wondering if a discussion on Jaswant Singh expulsion which is a political topic should be discussed in BR since political discussions are not allowed.

Jaswant Singh is just an MP at the moment and surely his expulsion from BJP would have an impact on BJP and not on the country strategically.

Or is BR selectively applying the new rules just because moderators want to discuss the issue.

The idea that political discussions are not allowed died a long time ago. That rule is flouted or upheld on BRF just like the Karnataka Government flouts or upholds the "No Private Practice for Government doctors" rule. It is applied only to get rid of or punish certain people/certain topics. Of course it is never easy being an admin re such issues.

Check the "Sharm el Sheikh" or "EULA" thread and recall what was discussed about the nuclear deal. The BJP is the only major opposition party and having a dysfunctional, fractious, infighting BJP is of national importance.

Guess who gets to run the country unopposed as the BJP shoots itself in the foot and reveals its inner rot?

[SwamyG]

Without having read the book; I like the fact that JS was expelled. Arun Shourie is questioning Advani. Hopefully it will hasten the dismantling of the BJP. In software development it is said that maintenance of existing software pays dividend only upto so many years; after n number of years the software much be written from scratch to face the future business scenarios. BJP is in that state. It has to be re-written. Too many infighting and band-aids sticking out of it. Time to create a new party from scratch.

It is a pity that stalwarts can not remain together. Is it Modi vs Jaswant show? And Advani looks to have sided with Modi. BJP's internal report has blamed Advani, Modi and Jaitley. And these three have attacked JS. So maybe JS had a better vision than these three and now they are taking it on him.

[SwamyG]

>>>>Guess who gets to run the country unopposed as the BJP shoots itself in the foot and reveals its inner rot?
Any large country is run by corporations and business people.

[shiv]

>>>>Guess who gets to run the country unopposed as the BJP shoots itself in the foot and reveals its inner rot?
Any large country is run by corporations and business people.

No wonder. One political party is accused of selling out while the other is a washout.

[svinayak]

One news I got was that JS can start a new party with Baba Ramdev.
This will be rashtriya party with rashtriya ethos

[Muppalla]

Without having read the book; I like the fact that JS was expelled. Arun Shourie is questioning Advani. Hopefully it will hasten the dismantling of the BJP. In software development it is said that maintenance of existing software pays dividend only upto so many years; after n number of years the software much be written from scratch to face the future business scenarios. BJP is in that state. It has to be re-written. Too many infighting and band-aids sticking out of it. Time to create a new party from scratch.

It is a pity that stalwarts can not remain together. Is it Modi vs Jaswant show? And Advani looks to have sided with Modi. BJP's internal report has blamed Advani, Modi and Jaitley. And these three have attacked JS. So maybe JS had a better vision than these three and now they are taking it on him.

I do not think it is anything like Modi Vs JS show. Modi, Yeddi, Raman Singh and Chavan belongs to different league and Modi being more popular to the actual foot soldiers across the country.

JS is expelled just like that and I don't attribute any thought process or any trecherous plan. I do not think he can do any damage in the short run however Rajasthan's rajput pride is hurt for a extended period with this event.

[brihaspati]

Sardar Patel had many positives. But I would see several fatal flaws. First he allowed MKG to overrule "democratic" process to push him out in favour of JLN. This means, for him, the "party" and the mass behind it, was less of a priority than the individual MKG. Second, he declares that if the Partition was not accepted, "India" would have disntegrated. What exactly was this India for him then - obviously the parts that fell into Pakistan did not belong to this India of Sardar! Third he could not prevent JLN from the blunders of foreign policy over J&K. There are other issues about his role in the surrender of the naval ratings of the naval uprising, but that perhaps is a different issue.

I find his deference to individuals over the "nation" problematic.

I have always wondered, if the fundamental problem in Sardar rested on a concept of India that comprised only a contiguous territorial hold based around the central India and elongated north and south from North Kashmir to Kanyakumari. The "wings" across Indus Valley and the Gangetic delta perhaps did not belong in his India. Had it belonged, he just might have shown more of his "iron" in taking back these areas. But even then he has done much more to his "India" than JLN did even for this "India".

But what is more interesting is that the BJP seems to be bending over backwards to appropriate the icons of Congressite claim to sole legacy of the freedom movement. It has already taken MKG, now claimed Sardar. The reaction shown in expulsion of JS unfortunately looks like the old tactic of rhetoric hiding real motivations of power and personal dislikes - I am so familiar with. All Indian parties share this characteristic - and it appears more intense as the ideological posturing of the party increases. Here the current Rajnathic BJP and the Karatist CPI(M) show uncanny similarities. They blast intra-party opposition by pre-emptive strikes of outright expulsion. In fact the BJP has practised in case of JS, what the CPI(M) party constitution opnely declares as its right - even in case a member submits a resignation, the party can simply refuse to accept the resignation and instead expel that member outright.

The consequence is not going to be outwardly that severe. There will not be a huge outpouring of support fro JS from within the political organization of the BJP. This is seen as crisis moment for the party - and the tendency of such parties in thsi scenario is to thicken up and stick together. They need someone as a whipping boy - which is a good way of venting steam of frustration and dissent, and then after politically killing the victim, blame all the problems on the victim. This is like a scene in Schindler's List - where a boy in the conc camp points to a just shot inmate as the one who stole the chicken, and saves the remainder.

JS is agewise too advanced for external and internal forces to invest in him as a viable focus of reform or breaking up BJP. His expulsion does not send a very positive signal to those among the armed forces who have to keep their nationalistic thoughts to themselves.

If I were in place of Rajnath and inc, I would have left JS in a limbo. He could be milked for maximum political mileage without the BJP core being at all implicated and still retaining the full freedom to walk away in case disaster brewed from JS's claims. Of course, they are in a hurry now to counter SG, and they may even be toying with the idea of Sushmaji at the top or parliamentary top or at least a touted successor to LKA. But she is no match for SG's manipulative capabilities. She is much more open, and emotional, who comes across as sincere but volatile - not the female Krishna we need.

If RSS really wants its ideological targets to be achieved, and through the BJP, then it will be like trying to attach two bulls in opposite directions to the same cart. The electoral party cannot be tagged to pure ideology for a long time. Then it has to be made into a revolutionary party that achieves its targets over a short period of time. Over the longer run, they should leave the BJP to work out parliamentary and electoral paths, but allow a relatively autonomous third entity in the form of a mass movement and organization that is not seen (and genuinely through independent decision making capabilities) as a mere adjunct of the RSS or the BJP. They should not try to impose direct personnel control over the third entity but see to it that ideological convergence remains.

Otherwise the current antics will be seen in public as so much brute force method by the RSS to "control" the BJP. This is highly damaging for electoral purposes. Ideological control over "affiliate" organizations can be maintained in much more subtle ways. The JS case was not a subtle approach. It is tactically necessary to keep many different shops and outlets open, where ideological hardlining is not a necessary qualification for membership.

But who am I to advise!

[csharma]

First of all, it is debatable whether Jaswant Singh is great or not.

As far as the BJP is concerned, it is definitely in a mess. It has to fix the leadership and bring young leaders in and prepare for the long run. Right now Congress is on the ascendant and Rahul Gandhi will lead a Congress surge. BJP has no hope of matching them in short to medium term.

The task for them is to survive the marauding Congress so that they remain around when the eventual dip in Congress fortunes happnes.

After the election, BJP is in disarray and every leader has an opinion. BJP has to get its act together i.e bring back discipline and put young leaders in key positions. That should help get rid of the factionalism that has crept in the last few years.

Coming to Jaswant Singh, his opinions will not go down well with people in Gujarat and provides Congress a potent weapon to attack BJP. One cannot be a great leader in a political party and spout opinions that run counter to what the party believes in. No party would allow that. He should have quit the party earlier or started a new party to carry forward his vision. Btw, his view of India expressed in the book is something that most BRites will oppose. Read Swapan Dasgupta's article in the Telegraph to get a summary of what he says in the book.

But it wasn’t Jinnah alone who was frustrated by the Congress determination to create a modern India on conventional nationalist lines. The 600 princely states, where nearly 25 per cent of Indians lived, were also opposed to any all-India federation that didn’t guarantee their separateness. As a feudatory of the Maharaja of Jodhpur, Jaswant had reason to imbibe the displeasure of the princes at Sardar Patel’s arm-twisting over integration into India, the anger over Indira Gandhi’s peremptory abolition of titles, privileges and privy purses in 1971, and the final collapse of a charming world built on custom, deference, obligations and entitlements.

In many ways, Jaswant has a quirky view of India. His Toryism blends with an intellectual acceptance of the formulation that India is a multinational aggregation. This is quite different from the prevailing RSS orthodoxy that Bharat is a Hindu rashtra that must aspire to a streamlined, efficient, modern state. In another age, Jaswant may have been at home with the pre-Independence Liberals — a grouping that suited the Bombay gentleman in Jinnah. Alternatively, he may have been a stalwart in C. Rajagopalachari and Minoo Masani’s Swatantra Party, a mix of squirearchy and free enterprise. He has announced after his expulsion that his next project will be a political biography of Rajaji.

How can a Indian nationalist agree to these views? "Multinational aggregation". I commend the Congress under Nehru and Patel for creating a string centralized India that people in BR love and care for.

Jaswant Singh should have quit the party to express his great ideas.

BJP has taken the first good step by removing Jaswant Singh. Now they need to get rid of others and put young, dynamic, selfless leaders to be able to function as an effective oppostion.

[shiv]

Otherwise the current antics will be seen in public as so much brute force method by the RSS to "control" the BJP. This is highly damaging for electoral purposes. Ideological control over "affiliate" organizations can be maintained in much more subtle ways. The JS case was not a subtle approach. It is tactically necessary to keep many different shops and outlets open, where ideological hardlining is not a necessary qualification for membership.

The BJP-RSS relationship has become hilarious.

The BJP is talking of the RSS like an uncle who has a reputation for being a drunkard debauch. "We respect uncle and will always hear him out" they say - but then go on to say that they are a separate organization with separate procedures. The RSS is behaving like the uncle who feels he has a right to lecture the BJP.

The RSS had already fired the first shot across the BJPs bow after the electoral defeat when the RSS clearly stated that the BJP is welcome to sever its links with the RSS and that the latter would feel no ill effect from such an event. It was the BJP that refused to do that - in effect saying 'Oh uncle we love and respect you". I had posted this on here in one of the election threads.

Naturally "Uncle" RSS is now telling the BJP what to do. The BJP is playing an extremely silly game here. Electorally they cannot follow the RSS' ideology 100% - they have to bend to electoral demands. But by ditching the RSS they lose their identity and they don't want to do that.

Once again the RSS is right. The BJP must chart its own course and not "use" its connection with the RSS to hold on to Hindu votes, while treating the RSS like drunk uncle whose words can be ignored when convenient.

[svinayak]

How can a Indian nationalist agree to these views? "Multinational aggregation". I commend the Congress under Nehru and Patel for creating a string centralized India that people in BR love and care for.

Jaswant Singh should have quit the party to express his great ideas.

BJP has taken the first good step by removing Jaswant Singh. Now they need to get rid of others and put young, dynamic, selfless leaders to be able to function as an effective oppostion.

Did you read my post above

[csharma]

How can a Indian nationalist agree to these views? "Multinational aggregation". I commend the Congress under Nehru and Patel for creating a string centralized India that people in BR love and care for.

Jaswant Singh should have quit the party to express his great ideas.

BJP has taken the first good step by removing Jaswant Singh. Now they need to get rid of others and put young, dynamic, selfless leaders to be able to function as an effective oppostion.

Did you read my post above

Which one? The one about Jaswant Singh and Baba Ramdev. That will not fly. IMHO.

[sukhdeo]

Jaswant Singh's expulsion was overdue after Kandahar. Enough said. They might now be in with a chance to win the Maharashtra assembly.

Jaswant went to Kandahar when he was foreign minister. At that time Advani was home minister and IC 814 had neither been prevented from taking off from Chandigarh nor were commandos available at short notice. What would have been a home ministry problem was converted into a foreign ministry problem.

And Vajyapee was PM and the terrorist handover could not have been done without his acquiescence.

I believe that making Jaswant the fall guy and letting off the other fossils is a mistake - although the mistake does not bother me personally. If the party wants to become a party of blind donkeys - so be it - they have been heading that way for a while.

IMO first and foremost Advani needs to go. It is pure sycophancy of the Gandhi family genre to allow that geriatric to remain. As I get older I am getting more and more convinced that there should be a "retirement/superannuation age" for politicians.

Modi's banning of the book sound exactly like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. What Hindutva? Karnatak will follow I guess.

Why not let thinking people read the book? I will tell you the reason. If you can think - you do not belong in the BJP and therefore you are an "enemy of Hindutva". This is a clear case of the elite deciding that the non elite will be misled by Jaswant's book. This plays right into the hands of those who might want to accuse the BJP of being a high handed elitist forward caste party. What a pathetic bunch of morons we have right at the top. The RSS is right.

The BJP is as good as dead in its current format.

I for one dont blame Jaswant any more than I blame Advani and Vajpayee for the Kandahar fiasco. But I dont blame him any less either. I do blame those family members of the hostages demonstrating in Delhi the most and some of the hostages themselves who went over and beyond sucking up to the hostage takers, to a point where it was reported that some of them actually took the hijackers autographs before leaving the plane.

There are several issues about Kandahar that perplex me, just like this book by Jawant does and the statement by Advani on Jinnah does and the BJP in general does. Actually, it perplexed me, but I seem to have the answer now. First let me state why I was perplexed.

a. Regardless of who you want to blame for Kandahar, what I still dont understand to this day is, what was the necessity for any high level minister to go to Kandahar to hand over the money to the hijackers ? If the answer is, as some on BRF have stated, that he wanted to symbolize that he as a minister was willing to put his life on the line, well, this wasnt a good way to show it. Was it really so hard for anyone in the government or the party to anticipate and visualize how it would look and what message it would actually send ? It wasnt as if hijacking is not a common occurence and I have never heard of any high level official from any other country going to meet with the hijackers, at least it is not a common occurance. Why then was this decision taken against all norms and precedence in hostage situations ? Folks at BRF who cannot find anything else to defend it also say that perhaps there was a compulsion and we just dont know about it because it is classified information. Prey tell, what useful purpose is served by keeping this information classified almost 10 years after the case ? Actually, I believe if there was a legitimate reason, it would have been explained by someone or leaked by someone by now. So, what I think is that it was a typical Indian juvenile attempt by a guy (Jaswant), whose ego prevailed upon his good sense to show how brave he was by putting his own life on the line, while the actual result turned out to make him look like a buffoon, a fool, and a clueless individual who further diminished India's status and prestige and further re-inforced the stereotype of Indians as soft, half assed, half baked egomaniacs. I actually think, going to Kanadahar was Jaswants own idea and Advani and Vajpayee actually just went along with it, because they were pretty clueless too.

b. The next thing that was totally inexplicable about this Jinnah fixation or even if it is a Congress and Nehru fixation of Advani and Jaswant is that in the current Indian context, this fixation seems to be totally out of place, dated and symbolic of someone who is not in touch with ground reality in India at the moment. As current, not even former, MPs and Leaders of the the Opposition and even Prime Minister in waiting, ought these leaders not be spending their time thinking about, writing about and actually executing solutions to, problems of the people which are more urgent, more current, more acute. I can name a million things, ranging from pandemics, economic issues, diplomatic issues, sociological issues, educational issues, trade issues, employement issues, power generation and shortage issues, infra-structure issues, legal system overhaul issues, corruption issues, violence issues, insurgency issues and even foreign policy issues which are enormously more interesting to a large majority of people in India than the Nehru Jinnah feud and even frankly the causes and issues sorrounding the partition. The only answer I have been able to come up with is that these guys are totally out of touch. They act more like folks that retired 20 or even 50 years ago and are now still living in their youth and fixated on the problems of their youth and now writing about them. It would be a perfectly acceptable thing for them to do, if they indeed were retired. But they are not.

c. There are many other inexplicable things about the BJP, but let me end with this one for now. Other than Modi in Gujarat, can anyone really point out the difference between Congress and BJP in how they govern and the corruption levels in states where they rule ? Arent they really the same. If one says that some BJP CMs are marginally better (leave Modi aside for the moment, who I believe is enormously better), one can also point to various Congress CMs such as Gehlot, Dixit and one or two more, who have been as good. In certain states BJP has been more vicious, not mindful of law and order and more greedy than previously considered horrendous Congress governments. In the states, other than gujrat, and to an extent in Orissa, when they were sharing power, they were no more nationalistic or protectors of Hindu interests than the Congress. So, why are educated people on BRF being duped into still thinking of BJP as a nationalist party ? They are unfortunately, another bunch of thugs, a little less organized than the Congress in crime, a little less organized through no lack of trying.

d. What exactly is wrong in banning Jaswant's book ? It is just not the sort of disruption Modi wants to have. In his view, Jaswant's book doesnt contribute anything to the civic life or any life in Gujrat. I would imagine the idea of banning anything will find enormous reservoir of support on BRF and Pak and Saudi. Must have made some people's day.

[Muppalla]

One news I got was that JS can start a new party with Baba Ramdev.
This will be rashtriya party with rashtriya ethos

How about he rope in LKA and start a project called JRF ( Jinnah Research Foundation).

[shiv]

d. What exactly is wrong in banning Jaswant's book ? It is just not the sort of disruption Modi wants to have. In his view, Jaswant's book doesnt contribute anything to the civic life or any life in Gujrat. I would imagine the idea of banning anything will find enormous reservoir of support on BRF. Must have made some people's day.

Instituting a ban one something that is an embarrassment or inconvenience is exactly the behavior to be expected from an organization looking for scapegoats. I expect the BJP to be this way. Perhaps I was expecting Modi to be better - but I now realise that in this system he can be no better.

There are two ways of looking at the issue

1) The book is banned because people have read it and it is wrong
2) The book is banned because "It is just not the sort of disruption Modi wants to have."

If we follow the second route as "wise and worthy of emulation" a lot of things that are immoral become wise. Modi is wrong. He may be politically right, but he remains wrong in banning a book written by a party stalwart without allowing a fair judgement. He does not want fair judgement, which is what is inconvenient.

Modi gets -1 from me,

[sukhdeo]

d. What exactly is wrong in banning Jaswant's book ? It is just not the sort of disruption Modi wants to have. In his view, Jaswant's book doesnt contribute anything to the civic life or any life in Gujrat. I would imagine the idea of banning anything will find enormous reservoir of support on BRF. Must have made some people's day.

Instituting a ban one something that is an embarrassment or inconvenience is exactly the behavior to be expected from an organization looking for scapegoats. I expect the BJP to be this way. Perhaps I was expecting Modi to be better - but I now realise that in this system he can be no better.

There are two ways of looking at the issue

1) The book is banned because people have read it and it is wrong
2) The book is banned because "It is just not the sort of disruption Modi wants to have."

If we follow the second route as "wise and worthy of emulation" a lot of things that are immoral become wise. Modi is wrong. He may be politically right, but he remains wrong in banning a book written by a party stalwart without allowing a fair judgement. He does not want fair judgement, which is what is inconvenient.

Modi gets -1 from me,

You missed my point entirely on that one.

I agree with you. Book burnings, bans and exiles are never, ever justifiable, even if Modi does it, or Sardar Patel does it or Gandhi does it. Modi is a human being and will make mistakes. This was a big one.

[enqyoob]

Has anyone read the book completely? Did Modi give the precise reason why Guj govt was banning the book?

Quite probably the ban has absolutely nothing to do with the passages on Jinnah. Someone may actually have read the book and seen something far more dangerous.

The idea of kicking a senior leader out of a party just because he expressed a thoughtful conclusion on some dead Paki's mindset, is really sad - for the party. Is the BJP of today so totally lobotomized? Maybe Jaswant Singh has presented this alternative description of Jinnah after careful research. Unfortunately, there is nothing left in the Top of the BJP Bhaitaks to rebut jaswant's claims effectively.

Both the Advani statements on Jinnah, and the Jaswant statements as I read them, are devastatingly effective piskops statements aimed at the Paki RAPEs. Little by little, the cardboard edifice of Pakistan's Raisin Dieter is being brought down. Unfortunately, those who do this must suffer the abuse from the monkeys jumping up and down each time.

[shiv]

You missed my point entirely on that one.

I agree with you. Book burnings, bans and exiles are never, ever justifiable, even if Modi does it, or Sardar Patel does it or Gandhi does it. Modi is a human being and will make mistakes. This was a big one.

Ah - I now realize you were taking a potshot at "expected comments"

[sukhdeo]

You missed my point entirely on that one.

I agree with you. Book burnings, bans and exiles are never, ever justifiable, even if Modi does it, or Sardar Patel does it or Gandhi does it. Modi is a human being and will make mistakes. This was a big one.

Ah - I now realize you were taking a potshot at "expected comments"

potshot at "expected comments" and a strong impulse (not here in BRF ), but everywhere else to ban things.

[shiv]

India banned Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" when Rajiv Gandhi was PM. This act has been bashed as minority appeasement. So what should have been done? The book should not have been banned.

Fine.

Now the boot is on the other foot. We have the BJP in a tizzy about a book written by a BJP stalwart and Modi bans the book. BJP and Congress are the same - they are equally self serving. I am sure some Congress cadre will scan the book and put a pdf online.

[AbhishekD]

I have not read JS's book, but from what I have read about his book. I can understand what he is trying to convey. He is trying to say that Pakistan was not created by Jinnah but by Nehru and Patel by their dereliction of duty and lose of interest towards the present day pakistan. Imagine what would happen if some Indian leader gives up on Kashmir by saying that it is a bad part of India so lets get rid of it.

Nehru, MKG and Patel are the trio who have gained the most from Indian Independence but their role in Partition has never been scrutinized. Especially MKG and Patel. Nehru was the biggest culprit of Indian Partition but the lose of interest by Patel and MKG is also the reason for Indian Partition.

The point is that certainly Jinnah demanded Pakistan, but you dont allow such a tragedy to happen. The argument that India would have disintegrated if partition was not accepted is disingeneous. Imagine an Abrahim Lincoln allowing THE SOUTH to secede because it was the bad part of America. Abrahim Lincoln stood up and fought for his country. Fought against bigotry and discrimination. These tall leaders of Congress party did not fight against the worst form of communalism and then immediately went ahead and called themselves secular. This is like eating your cake and having it also.

The story of partition is a telling comment on the leadership of MKG, Nehru and Patel and the hypocrisy of Congress party.

But beyond that the reaction of BJP betrays their real feeling behind partition. They did not want partition, not because a muslim dominated region left India, but because a piece of land left India that was formerly Hindu and has been converted to a Muslim land. The reaction clearly betrays the basic feeling within BJP about their feeling about Partition.

It is strange tragedy. RSS believes in partition but did not agree to it till the end and Congress did not believe in partition but agreed to it. Congress is a weak party with weak leaders and BJP/RSS is a mad party with mad idealogy

Abhishek

[JwalaMukhi]

Did Modi give the precise reason why Guj govt was banning the book?
.

For now: Sardar Patel references seems to have caught the goat of many.
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/aug/ ... s-modi.htm

The Gujarat government, which banned Jaswant Singh's [ Images ] controversial book on Jinnah alleging it was an attempt to tarnish the image of Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, has in its notification described it as "highly objectionable and against national interest".
The notification by the home department, a copy of which is with the PTI, does not mention the name of Sardar Patel regarding whom the book has some "defamatory references."
While banning the 600-page 'Jinnah-India, Partition, Independence' yesterday, the state government had claimed that it (book) was an attempt to tarnish the image of country's first Home Minister Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel.

Yesterday, a senior minister of the government said, "The book has been banned because it contains defamatory references regarding Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, who is considered the architect of the modern India.