National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

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ramana
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by ramana »

Pulikeshi wrote:
RayC wrote:Pulikeshi

You are right.
But nothing can wipe out Hinduism!
History is our witness!
I am not weak minded with serious insecurity of my being!
Ray,

I am not sure you appreciate the gray in my comments - it is not monochromatic.
Also, I try hard to stay away from absolutes and conclusions unless there is a need to...

The civilization that birthed us is the closet mankind has come to a system of thought that is both inclusive and exclusive of/to ideas, yet at the same time arriving at stability for society.

This as opposed to ideologies and civilizations that are essentially exclusive and discriminating.
Notice they have had finite lifespans and require high energies to maintain their structure.


Hinduism is characterized by empiricism and rationalism, belief and doubt, synonyms and opposites, etc.
It requires low energy levels and is self-sustaining in a free market for ideas, but has trouble dealing with monopolies and restrictive practices to flow of ideas.


The current Indian nation-state cannot preserve this civilization, not because it does not care to,
but because by design it was never meant to...


The Hindus have been incorrectly, in my mind, trying to fix the deficiencies in Hinduism via the state.

Perhaps all this started with trying to fix Sati, etc. Or
it is due to the bait-and-switch that happened from the Smrithi to the Constitution -
but many are scarcely even aware of what this is....

Our best minds are trained to think in legal, socio-political heck even Religious terms (capital R).
Rarely do you find folks who can really talk the language of the civilization anymore.


You talk the language of the nation-state, but be aware that the nation-state does not care about the civilization, neither do you, but the state cannot exist without the civilization....

My point is if you want to fix Hinduism - fix Hinduism.
Fix the state if there is a need to fix the state.
Right now I do not think we need to fix the latter, it is good enough.
I still think there is a need to fix the former, but not convinced of the Indic way to do this...

Hope that helps.
Was thinking along these very lines that Hinduism and India don't fit the Westphalian construct. The separation of church and state was needed in Western Europe and the same remedy and nay an even more intrusive thing of the Indian state fixing the Hindu religion was adopted. This has caused the distancing from the religion and thus the lack of understanding of the need for civilization to sustain nation states. Whereas, in the West they have the veneer of secularism on a deep layer of Christianity which provides the glue that holds them together. Its only of late that the state is taking up issues of criminal nature and has a hands off approach to initiating Modernist changes.

The state adopted Modernism without understand the background of the genesis of that dogma and created new identities.

The linguistic states are a modern way of thinking about identity.

I was struck by TVR Shenoy's article of the 1920 INC meeting where delegates were made to sit together based on language even whenthey came formone region.

A lot of social engineering was undertaken without regard to consequences or after effects.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by SwamyG »

ramana wrote:Was thinking along these very lines that Hinduism and India don't fit the Westphalian construct.
Having had multiple identities for thousands of years, the Inidian civilization had been asked, after 1947, to shed all those multiple identities and take on ONLY the modern identity - Indian.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by ramana »

SwamyG wrote:
ramana wrote:Was thinking along these very lines that Hinduism and India don't fit the Westphalian construct.
Having had multiple identities for thousands of years, the Inidian civilization had been asked, after 1947, to shed all those multiple identities and take on ONLY the modern identity - Indian.
Yes and those earlier identities are struggling to get out. Need to find a way for those identities to assert themselves without jepoardising the national identity. The west has periodic wars but now its becoming costly.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Pulikeshi »

Had a brief but interesting conversation with someone from Ireland.
(which some ancestral history in India as well as more recently at a very high govt. level)

Discovered something interesting in that conversation.
In order for the British to be who they where, there had to be a rejection of competing
identities. Such a reject causes instability, but if the nation is focused outward, it tends to
draw energy that maintains the disequilibrium.
Perhaps, that is the curse of empires - they pay the high price for artificial homogenization.

Notice for example we are talking National Agenda, but bringing in all aspects of the
civilization into it, of course much to the consternation of the nation-state purists.

If we were talking about Civilizational Agenda for India 2010-2050, would a similar
consternation occur if the agenda for the nation was introduced?
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Pulikeshi »

ramana wrote:This has caused the distancing from the religion and thus the lack of understanding of the need for civilization to sustain nation states. Whereas, in the West they have the veneer of secularism on a deep layer of Christianity which provides the glue that holds them together. Its only of late that the state is taking up issues of criminal nature and has a hands off approach to initiating Modernist changes.
As a state bound in history, there are fears of India slipping into way of our cousins to the west.
This fear, will drive the centrists to overreact to religion in any form becoming the vocabulary.
In their overreaction they will pick the less extreme, in their mind, perhaps the left.
By definition, centrists have nothing to offer themselves, but neutrality at best -
between competing extremes and at worst a lean towards the left.

Regarding secularism and such in India. There is no choice but to maintain secularism
given we have fairly large minorities that prescribe to exclusive ideologies that will assert
themselves on the state. Of course one could call for a reinterpretation of secularism
and it yet remains if there is such a thing as India secularism.
I would love to see it defined, but current attempts have fallen short.

If on the other hand, one were to reject secularism, what does the nation-state then revert back to?
Albeit, the Constitution has Dharmic elements in it, will it remain religion neutral and maintain
the stability desired by all the citizens of India, irrespective of their religious beliefs?

If Westphalia model, especially that of territorial integrity and exclusion of extra-national actors,
do not work in India, what will?
What characterizes the Indian civilization and nation-state in a lot outside this model?
If indeed Indian civilization and nation-state require a new model, what work has been
started and or ongoing on this front? How does secularism come into picture here?
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

ramana wrote: I was struck by TVR Shenoy's article of the 1920 INC meeting where delegates were made to sit together based on language even when they came form one region.
:roll:
EARLY GANDHI AND THE LANGUAGE POLICY OF THE INDIAN NATIONAL CONGRESS
http://www.languageinindia.com/april200 ... ndhi1.html
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

The classic example of how delusions about "inherent goodness" of "others", and that we have "after all peacefully conquered and convinced our civilizational enemies" forever - is the case of Ashoka Piyadassin. Ashoka, declares in the latter part of his reign to the effect that his descendants should not hold "military conquests" or coercive subjugation of "outsiders" as a desirable objective. He suffers from the fatal delusion, that the appearance of control and peaceful coexistence and "winning over" of the hearts and minds of inveterate looters and destroyers - came after two and half generations of ruthless expansion and coercion beyond pre-existing "territory". It was that possibility of military retribution if any invading adventures were attempted, the possibility of getting wiped out as a result, that induced the appearance of "winning over of hearts".

With his own hands Ashoka dug the grave/pyre not only of his own dynasty, but also of the populations under his rule. When we get confused about how wonderful the current version of "Indian secularism" as implemented in practice, appears to be - Ashoka should be a good reminder of what can go wrong. I have not found Murphys Law to be unapplicable when civilizations are concerned. If something can go wrong, it will go wrong.

However, I guess this discussion can get veered into discussion of secularism and then from there into the merits of "Indic" or some other religions. If so, please avoid raising the issue of secularim per se in a "national agenda" thread.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

{Please discuss Telangana issue on that thread. Thx.}
Last edited by enqyoob on 25 Dec 2009 06:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by svinayak »

Reading some of the history between 1900 to 1915 and from 1920 to 1935 gives lot of details...There is nothing new here and many books are written to analyse this.

{True. But OT.}
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by ramana »

{deleted.
ramana: sorry, that starts a large OT digression. }
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

Let us please confine ourselves to the National Agenda for the Future. That is what I thought this thread was all about.

Civilisational aspects can be discussed in the Indic thread.

Unless, of course, it is an indication that we have no idea of how to chart our future and so we go into the past which quite a few know and on which we can display much knowledge. I am being blunt, but forgive me for being so.

I am looking forward to some great discourses what we can do to make our future worth our while.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Pulikeshi »

brihaspati wrote: For the west rashtra was the basis of civilization. For Bharat, civilization was the basis of rashtra.
Boss, what Rashtra? - how many times did Bharat exist as a Rashtra?
Bharat has historically had Gana Rajyas characterized by kingdoms, republics, democracies, city-states, etc.
How many times do you think we were united as one entity?
brihaspati wrote: Western civilization was geographically forced ....
In Bharat, long rivers and rivers systems on extensive flood plains....
Thus civilizational commonality had to play a more fundamental role than any rashtra created on top of it.
The trouble here is that no civilizational commonality has been defined -
Ironically, what we really have is competing identities that have formed the bedrock of
the civilization, that have fused yet moved geologically much like tectonic plates.

A Rastra never formed because there was no force strong enough to reject
some of these competing identities to cobble together what is and what is not.
This is very much similar to asking why Europe never formed a single country.
There have been violent attempts that never succeeded.
Even today all that can be cobbled together is an economic union if at all,
not withstanding Christianity as the unifying force.
Similarly for Africa, no attempt to form a single country has even been attempted.

The modern Indian state is not based on rejection of identities, albeit,
to some extent it may be that, it is more based on an adoption of modernity.
In this I agree with Ramana.

Where I agree with Ray, is that some rejection of identities will have to
occur to enable India the nation-state to move on, but where I disagree is that
people are asked to give up their religious beliefs.

Thus what has to be done is the definition of what identities can be rejected
in order to guide the course of India becoming a sustainable nation-state.
This has been a "weakness" of the Civilization till time immemorial that it has never
sustained a lasting Rastra.
Now, there may be merit to the argument that the market for ideas has
favored the vibrant civilization at the cost of the nation-state.
However, the time has come when we are beginning to realize that one cannot
exist without a strong other.
There is no choice but to optimize both, it is no longer one versus another.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

Pullekeshi,

I have not advocated rejection of religious identities.

All I have said is that let it be your guiding principle in living life without imposing it on others.

I am aware I am getting into another minefield, but I do not subscribe to anti Indian sentiments sometimes aired from the Jama Mazjid, the proselytism of Christian missionaries or the wild ways of the VHP and the Bajrang boys. In the modern context, for survival as a Nation is more than religion. It is being united with one aim. I know it is difficult, but then one must try.

Economy, social equality without bending down for vote bank politics and a strong defence is the requirement of the day. Unless we build our Nation as one, we will get nibbled by those who foster and nourish our differences. What is the use of talking of our historical greatness, when we are being 'raped' by our adversaries, using the very weapons of our divisions that they themselves foster?


My earnest wish is that we must sink our differences before they sink us! We cannot let those who want us to be destroyed to win by pandering to our differences and igniting our difference so that we fight amongst each other and perish!

Indeed there are bad hat recruited by such elements. Let us fish them out and destroy them!
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

Please be calm and not get deviated.

This thread in not about testing knowledge of Indic, civilisation, history and the ravaging of the nation from outside. It is about what is our future.

We have adequate knowledge about your sense of history civilisation and Indicism.

Unless one is clueless about having the intelligence and acumen to foresee the future, go ahead displaying your knowledge of history and you Indicism thinking you are relevant to the thread!

It is only a person who understands the geopolitics and geostrategy who can comment. Remainder are there to stand and wait!
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Sanku »

{OT deleted - example left. This has nothing to do with the years 2010-2050CE} Of course there are fewer true Chakravartin's who ruled the entire Bharatvarsha.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

{deleted..} This is one last time, a request, not to bring this particular issue up repeatedly on this thread - and then withdraw after delivering your salvo and pretend that others are "raising" the issue.

{I agree - make it the last time, pls}
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

Submergence of "differences" to get united - is a grand statement. But when the details of that is looked into there are many questions and problems.

How do you submerge your differences? One side agrees to give up? Which side agrees to submit? On what values does that side agree to submit? Difference is between "two" opposing viewpoints on a particular point. If that difference has to go, one of the two must submit to the other on that particular point.

Within India, if differences have to be submerged, then different sides have to give up on some of the values/points they insist as fundamental/noncompromisable. This is where, in the details, of what each side has to give up or comrpomise on, is where the devil lies.

If in the name of achieving "submergence of differences", we are asked to compromise on things - how far shall we go? Shall we accept the right claimed by exclusive religions to continue to preach ultimate conquest and conversion of all others, if necessary by violence like in Jihad - claiming that it is a fundamental and unalterable core belief of their faith? Shall we accept their right to call for execution or for the head of someone just because of what that person says? To run educational institutions where such propaganda can be legally carried out because it is part of religious faith? Or the right to have separate legal system as prescribed their faith which is not amenable to regular rashtryia institutional/electoral intervention?

When you say that we need to submerge our difference, specify, exactly which differences have to be submerged - and go into the details of those differences, and mention the groups on the opposing sides. Then we will see how and what the real problems are, and why civilizational questions become important - even for future policies. For it is a struggle between opposing values - and values which are ultimately sourced from civilizations.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

{RayC: I am deleting the quote because I have edited out most of the original of the quoted post as OT. Thanks}

Please note it is a general advisory.

All should confine to that National Agenda which should be viewed in the present and future geopolitical and geostrategic compulsions and vision.

I don’t wish to enter into a discussion on this.

I shall only give clinical comments without commenting on other's post (and so in a neutral mode) so as to allow me to exercise my duty as a Moderator with a clear conscience.
Last edited by enqyoob on 25 Dec 2009 06:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removing reference to OT post
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by rkirankr »

^^ If submerging difference is what some people want. As a first step insist on UCC and let us see who backs out. That should be educative to all those who lay the onus of submerging difference on the door step of certain people only.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

South Asia

India's grand strategic vision gets grander
By Stephen Blank

India has long considered itself a major global player, or at least a major Asian power, and it has been deeply frustrated until now in not being regarded as as a formidable actor on the international and Asian scene.

Major policy decisions, such as the one to go overtly nuclear in 1998, can be attributed to this consuming desire to be seen as a great power. For years both Indian and foreign analysts have expected that by the early 21st century India would become a major projector of power and influence throughout Asia. Indeed, the most recent evidence suggests that the Indian government has now opted for a 20-year program to fulfill that goal and become "a world power with influence spreading across the Indian Ocean, the Arabian Gulf and the four corners of Asia".

A major byproduct of this intended rise to a global status would be to leave Pakistan trailing behind as a minor regional power that could no longer threaten India's vital interests. Thus this program builds on the same psychological drive that has long animated much of India's thinking about regional security issues throughout the Indian Ocean. Accordingly this past November, Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee directed planners to craft defense strategies that extend beyond South Asia and transcend past sub-regional mind sets. India's expanded security perspectives, he claimed, require such fresh thinking about projecting power and influence, as well as security in all these directions.

Thus India will seek more defense cooperation with states in the Persian Gulf, Southeast and Central Asia, presumably going beyond intelligence-sharing about terrorist activities. This cooperation will proceed to more bilateral exchanges, military exercises and greater sharing of defense advice with friendly nations. In this context, relations of strategic partnership with Washington are essential because Russia's once powerful ties with India are now diluted and tempered by Moscow's dependence on the West, particularly the United States - a situation that would, in the absence of partnership with Washington, severely constrain India's options.

Ten-year military buildup
While India formally eschews offensive military projections, it is formally announcing its base in Tajikistan, and hopes to undertake the following military programs through 2013:
# Improving military logistics in Iran, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan;
# Increasing military interaction with Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Thailand, Laos, and Vietnam;
# Increasing naval interaction with South Africa, other African states, Iran, Oman, the United Arab Emirates and other Gulf nations;
# Extending infrastructure, logistic and material support to Myanmar to contain Chinese activities there.

Beyond those policies, all the Indian military services are currently undertaking a major buildup of conventional weapons, creating ways of delivering nuclear weapons and preparing defenses against nuclear missiles by improving communication and surveillance systems.

Although all the services will be augmented, it is significant that the Navy will construct warships in an effort to make India's presence in the Indian Ocean "a force to be reckoned with", and thus one capable of force and power projection if necessary. For example, in April, the plan prepared for the Indian military and developed by its Directorate of Defense Policy and Planning for the Army, Air Force and Navy advocated a rapid reaction capability for real-time troop deployment to countries along the rim of the Indian Ocean in order to create a defense umbrella for them.

This plan, "India's Strategic Vision", envisages cooperation with Indonesia, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritius and Vietnam. And it comports with Vajpayee's directives. However it cannot be carried out given India's lack of fast long-range aircraft with aerial refueling capabilities, Airborne Early Warning and Command Aircraft (AWAC), attack helicopters and a carrier in addition the existing Indian Naval Services Virat carrier.

These deficiencies, which the report insists cannot be made up by India's defense industry, put it at a disadvantage relative to China, which can project major power into the Indian Ocean region. Therefore, the only way to acquire these capabilities is through foreign suppliers. But the purpose of inviting diverse foreign arms suppliers into India's defense industries goes beyond merely augmenting India's force capabilities or diversifying suppliers so that it is no longer as dependent on Russian weapons - which in any case have now come in for considerable criticism.

Foreign suppliers a spur
Ultimately, the idea is that by inviting foreign and private competition into this domain the government will obtain the leverage to compel the Indian defense industry, a noticeably lagging part of Indian industry, to become more competitive, able to produce indigenously made systems, including high-tech systems, and sell them not only to the Indian military but abroad as well.

Thus a major part of Indian policy and of the long-range plans formulated by the government entail India becoming a major exporter of conventional arms, something it already is doing in Central Asia.

It is also very clear from the pattern of naval acquisitions that India has very expansive ambitions for itself, among which are countering both Pakistan and China. Again this reflects back to the objective of making India a naval force to be reckoned with in the Indian Ocean.

On October 14, navy chief Admiral Madhavendra Singh said: "Fulfilling India's dream to have a full-fledged blue-water navy would need at least three aircraft carriers, 20 more frigates, 20 more destroyers with helicopters, and large numbers of missile corvettes and anti-submarine warfare corvettes."

India's new naval acquisition program entails spending US$20 billion to buy aircraft carriers, submarines, frigates, maritime surveillance aircraft and other ships and equipment. The 10 principal combat vessels would be equipped with anti-missile missiles, control, command, communications and intelligence(C31) systems and Cruise missile launchers.

Submarine-launched nukes
Officials also insist on the need for a submarine-launched nuclear missile capability, presumably to establish a second-strike capacity and to counter the naval buildup by Pakistan's navy - regarded by New Delhi as a "medium-term" threat to India.

Pakistan's Agosta 90-B diesel submarines can, along with its three Orion P-3C maritime strike aircraft outfitted with missiles, conduct effective sea denial operations against India's coast.

However, it is just as likely if not more likely that the real threat Indian naval planners perceive is China, whose fleet they see, rightly or wrongly, as being increasingly able to project power into the Indian Ocean. One Indian study states that the power vacuum in that ocean in this century can only be filled by India, China or Japan either by "complete pre-eminence or by a mutual stand-off". While this may appear a rather fanciful assessment, perceptions often drive policy, especially in this part of the world. Consequently India has searched for a submarine that could launch nuclear missiles, and aircraft carriers, as well as long-range missiles that could strike targets over 2,500 kilometers away, clearly a sign that China is in its sights as well.

Many, if not most observers, have recently begun to observe China's rising economic and military capability across East Asia and its increased ability to shape policy outcomes desirable to Beijing. India now clearly aspires to a similar status and capability and apparently is willing to invest the resources necessary to acquire them.

Moreover, at least in Southeast Asia and in the waters adjacent to the Straits of Malacca, India is prepared to assert its interests to counter the rise in Chinese interest there. All these shifts in the geopolitical capacity of major actors suggests that not only is the war on terrorism a central geopolitical and geostrategic concern of these times, but also the likelihood of India-China rivalry across much of Asia, whether it is muted or overt, will be no less of a dominant story in the years to come.

Moreover, because of that rivalry and of these two states' rise to power, few if any of the pervious strategic realities that have governed Asia in these current times will remain unchanged or unscathed. However, they manifest themselves, intriguing developments will soon be unfolding in Southeast, South and Central Asia.

Stephen Blank is an analyst of international security affairs residing in Harrisburg, Pa.

(Copyright 2003 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact content@atimes.com for information on our sales and syndication policies.)

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EL25Df09.html
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

RayC
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

National Agenda For Governance

http://www.rediff.com/news/agenda.htm
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

India and Geopolitics
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4812906/India-and-Geopolitics

INDIA, US & CHINA
http://globalgeopolitics.net/wordpress/ ... -us-china/

Six mega-trends that define India's future
http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/jan/06bspec.htm

The growth future – India and China
http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/1585

Economy of India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India

New study highlights India's key economic strengths and weaknesses ...
http://www.mydigitalfc.com/economy/new- ... nesses-766

POPULATION GROWTH AND ITS EFFECT ON ENVIRONMENT IN INDIA
http://www.iussp.org/Bangkok2002/S09Nagdeve.pdf
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Pulikeshi »

RayC wrote: I shall only give clinical comments without commenting on other's post (and so in a neutral mode) so as to allow me to exercise my duty as a Moderator with a clear conscience.
RayC,

Some of us have a day job thinking about GDP, PPP, currency differentials, India-China, Emerging economies, etc.
Only a sterile national agenda (I detest agendas) results from measuring rupiyah and paisa.
I have twenty tanks, two nuke subs, etc. by 2050 is for the Govt. to worry about....
If that is the level of discussion allowed @ BRF,
we may have to make the choice to have more interesting conversations elsewhere - :mrgreen:

Several things can be up for rejection to sustain a nation-state, but not the civilizational base!

What seems to be happening repeatedly is a bait-and-switch every thread:
Thread after thread, we have logical turd that gets thrown around as opinions and analysis -
The moderators have a difficult job indeed, but neutral and disinterested (no agenda) - No Sir!
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

In my opinion the Moderators have no single view.

There is much debate and dissensions amongst us.

We try to be fair!

We accept that we are no Gods or standing on the Mount and hectoring.

I am answering since you directly ask me as a poster.

Indeed it is the showpieces that we can talk about. Can the Maurya Guptas or Cholas help today and are we applying their ideas? Think of what we are and what we were. The weak thinks of the glorious past and wallow and weep. The brave thinks of tomorrow and how they will change history!

Can we think ahead? Or is it too much of a strain and beyond intellect?
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Pulikeshi »

RayC,

Please to enjoy witch chai-biscoot :-)

How the clash of civilizations is really a clash of Gender equality

RayC wrote: Can we think ahead? Or is it too much of a strain and beyond intellect?
Sir, it is a strain and beyond my intellect, you are perfectly capable of thinking for all of us!
Look forward to your agenda!
Me what worry? :mrgreen:
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

RayC wrote
I shall only give clinical comments without commenting on other's post (and so in a neutral mode) so as to allow me to exercise my duty as a Moderator with a clear conscience.
The weak thinks of the glorious past and wallow and weep. The brave thinks of tomorrow and how they will change history!
This is an example of a neutral mode clinical comment, I supose, and relevant for this thread and forum. If so, let us make a similar neutral mode clinical comment - "the devious, erase history so that people cannot learn from past blunders. Rootless megalomaniacs think ahead of how to turn that erasure into future advantage".
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Prem »

The ones who dont know the past will never have future. When it comes to national and civilizational security it is foolish to not to look back , draw right conclusions, learn good lessons and apply them to build future.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

Since the climate "negotiations" at Copenhagen are going towards dramatic finishes or a more protracted struggle to "win", I am reviving the questions raised earlier in a post of mine.

As part of national agenda,

(a) Does India really need to copy everything that needs high energy consumption, as a supposedly better life style? This debate may appear innocent but has deep political ramifications, including that of the hot-potato arguments by certain sections of "leftists" or "tribal revivalists" - who lambast current criteria of development as being "elite driven" and out of tune with the land and its people.

Can India develop an alternative which is distinct from both the western model and criteria of growth and "development" as well as the "status quo" "revivalism" forwarded by certain schools of thought?

(b) What role does population management play formally in our national agenda? Can we take the thorny and "sensitive" issue of potentially unsustainable levels of population?

(c) If India's "leadership" does finally adopt the "western" model of high energy consumption, can it actually go for sustainable high energy output based on an indigenous programme that looks at such production from the perspective of India's climate, natural resources and natural sources of energy? A programme which is independent of any model developed by the "developed" countries?

Is there a need to explicitly build in preventive measures to immunize Indian economy and R&D from getting hijacked by "already high consumption econmy"'s agenda - even under the garb of science?
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

brihaspati wrote:
RayC wrote
I shall only give clinical comments without commenting on other's post (and so in a neutral mode) so as to allow me to exercise my duty as a Moderator with a clear conscience.
The weak thinks of the glorious past and wallow and weep. The brave thinks of tomorrow and how they will change history!
This is an example of a neutral mode clinical comment, I supose, and relevant for this thread and forum. If so, let us make a similar neutral mode clinical comment - "the devious, erase history so that people cannot learn from past blunders. Rootless megalomaniacs think ahead of how to turn that erasure into future advantage".
Let us leave the past posts of this thread from me. I was a poster and not working as a Moderator.

The present and future of this thread start NOW.

Moderator's cap is being exchanged for what was earlier a poster's cap and hence did not moderate.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

Does India really need to copy everything that needs high energy consumption, as a supposedly better life style? This debate may appear innocent but has deep political ramifications, including that of the hot-potato arguments by certain sections of "leftists" or "tribal revivalists" - who lambast current criteria of development as being "elite driven" and out of tune with the land and its people.

I know that Maoists and Leftists of various intensities of redness, oppose western style high industrializiation because they know that it also increases the penetration and mutual dependence of the modern state machinery into peripheral regions or isolated communities. For the Marxist drive towards power, in the absolute one-party format, cannot take place in the face of highly centralized and industrialized production of military hardware and where the state military does not side with the communists.

Even theoretically Marxists are not against intensive industrialization - but they want it to happen under their personal control - typically under the excuse of "leadership of the party==vanguard of the proletariat". So the western style of "development" is not anathema to them.

However the issue raised by them, irrespective of their tactical reasons, is worth considering from even the traditional stress on sustainablility concerns in the Bharatyia civilization. A lot of the spiritual associations with the land and life forms, typically mocked by most non-Bharatyias and a significant amount of Bharatyias as animism, stem from a realization of the need for sustainable eco-systems and the need to cherish and recognize the importance of even apparently insignificant life forms.

We may need to think of patterns of industrialization, whether we need each and every form and line of industrialization. More industrialization means more demand for energy, pollution, and possible dependence on technology which need not be sustainable in the long run.

The two key areas where, we are forced to keep up with the technology being constantly advanced - are essentially of defensive nature. The first is military technology, and the second is medicine. In both these areas, any development of a superior technology anywhere else is a setback for us. Militarily superior technology will eventually be used against us. Medical advances can be used to attack health and physiological vulnerabilities in the population, including biological warfare of various forms.

Thus continuous research and development and industrialization to implement the products of such research are needed in three key areas - (1) military (2) medicine (3) monitoring the environment and being able to intervene. All other technologies are perhaps essentially a matter of lifestyle choice and should be negotiable and not necessarily be driven by consumer exprience and projections of the "highest consumer" in the category.

We can see that the basic developmental needs of any population group are essentially centred around food production and consumption, and maintenance of health and a cumulative knowledge base. Much of the technologies we need nowadays in unrbanization and concentrated populations and the negative unsustainable consequences, come from necessary physical separation of producers of food from consumers of food, and the artificial need to constantly create excessive expectations to fuel industrial growth in pure consumer goods.

Because of this separation of food production components, and the need for concentration of industrialization, we automatically increase, transport, energy, waste management loads. Most of our urban centres are non-self-sustaining, and concentration of industrialization forces huge transportation networks and load.

Can India develop an alternative which is distinct from both the western model and criteria of growth and "development" as well as the "status quo" "revivalism" forwarded by certain schools of thought?

New models of agrarian-urban settlements need to be planned on a massive scale all over the country. Where land use is governed by local self-sustainability in food and energy production and waste management. Close physical proximity between industrial workers, farmers, farmlands, small-scale industries, local food markets supplied from the neighbouring fields, waste management and energy production and water management done locally with recycling on a self-sustainable basis. Services of the greatest possible level are local -educational, medical, government, security and financial services all available locally. Each such region well connected internally and nationally electronic communication-wise. Such a regional model cuts down on need for transport, storage and transport or processing of food, and a mixed occupational neighbourhood contributes to social cohesion. People do not have to undertake huge commutes to get basic services or for employment or subject themselves to the need for long distance transport for getting food and daily necessities.

Some may criticize this as isolationist (promoting regional isolation) and a nightmare of organization. Both are without much foundations, and are subject to will of the people to get a better and sustainable lifestyle.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by JwalaMukhi »

X-postings from future scenarios thread as this is also relevant to this thread
Rudradev wrote:
The process of centripetal aggregation instituted and implemented initially by Sardar Patel, despite the setbacks offered by linguistic reorganization of states, reached its perihelion in 1985 with the ascension of Rajiv Gandhi. That was the last time that the electorate handed a genuine mandate to any political party. Faced for the first time with the possibility of secession by an Indian state, people across the country rallied behind an untested leader whose sole value was that of a unifying emblem.

The counter process of centrifugal disaggregation had already begun to creep in around the edges, first with the linguistic reorganization of states, and later with the emergence of regional parties in the South, mainly the Dravidians in TN and Telugu Desam in Andhra Pradesh. The Maharashtra movement and the division of Punjab were other pointers in this direction. However, it was after the ouster of Rajiv Gandhi by V.P. Singh that the process of disaggregation and regionalism became the prominent trend. Even in the Gangetic heartland, the Yadav chieftains established regional principates who allied themselves with first one, and then another central power opportunistically.

The tendency to dissagregation was coupled with an erosion of the "national" party as a political concept. The Janata Dal-BJP combine fell apart, the Janata Dal splintered, and finally even the Congress was riven into regional entities such as the Tamil Manila Congress, Trinamool Congress, and Karnataka Congress Party. Only on the ideological left and right did some semblance of pan-Indian political organization endure; and on the left, the communists could at most aspire to be kingmakers. The mainstream itself seemed to have been chopped into myriad regionalist entities.

With this development came the era of coalition politics. "Third Front", "NDA" and "UPA" governments were the order of the day from the middle of the last decade through the end of the present one. Disaggregation continued as new regional states splintered off from existing ones: Uttarakhand, Jharkhand, Chattisgarh.

Today there is a conscious, concerted effort in process by the second UPA administration to reverse the process in favour of centripetal aggregation once again. The "Dynasty" has been restored. Piece by piece, state-level political entities seen as "regionalist" are being either co-opted or subverted, the TDP being a case in point.

If you look at the emergence of "Naxalite" militancy, it fits a pattern that corresponds to the watersheds of "regionalism". Look at the Red Corridor and you will see that it overlaps the new states of Jharkhand and Chattisgarh; the eastern part of Maharashtra, which had always been a headache to that state's inconveniently ambitious satrap Sharad Pawar; UP and Bihar, lost to regionalist strongmen in the wake of the Rajiv Gandhi government; West Bengal, where the CPI(M) is for all practical purposes running a regional principate; and Andhra Pradesh, the fount of the original Telugu Desam.

What does "Naxalite" militancy by well-armed militias ultimately achieve? Does it not increase the degree to which State governments become dependent on the Centre, and vulnerable to dismissal by Presidential Ordinance should the law-and-order situation in their States be deemed "untenable"? It's an old, old trick... remember Bhindranwale vs. the Akalis, Pirabharakaran vs. the TULF/EPRLF/TELO.

One might argue that the reinstatement of a centripetal order is a good thing, one that might eventually lead to a government capable of formulating a national vision and gaining the mandate to implement that vision.

The problem today is that the Centre itself relies too much on the support of those whom Brihaspati has described as being of the "Mercantile" mentality. Quite literally... the MMS/Sonia regime has successfully persuaded the new urban elite and business classes to invest in the "stability" represented by its continuance in power. (Ironically the BJP, which opened the floodgates whereby those classes garnered their new-found wealth, failed abysmally to co-opt them... thanks to its own lack of vision).

But as we know, a power elite backed by the "Mercantiles" alone is worse than a house of cards, because the "Mercantiles" are short-term opportunists and by their very nature inimical to the formulation and implementation of a strategic vision. Indeed, the malady spreads upwards; and the central leadership itself becomes tainted with "Mercantilism" to an even greater extent than before, afflicted by its disparaging contempt for the electorate's right to information, by its myopic opportunism, by its narcissistic conceit of knowing better what's best for the nation than the nation itself.

So our government stumbles around maintaining a veil of opacity against the people it represents, thereby blinding even itself to all but the most immediate goals of short-term profiteering and keeping the chair warm for Yuvraj. Hello, East India Company!

I submit that there is an alternative. Indians do tend to be afflicted by the "Mercantile" mentality most easily; to our peril, as history has shown. But I believe there exists an alternative archetype that, despite the depredations of invaders and the collaboration of "Mercantiles" for centuries, has fostered the continuance of our civilization more or less unscathed. At least thus far.

Let us call this archetype the "Cultivator" mentality. I don't mean that they should literally be farmers, any more than the "Mercantiles" are necessarily shopkeepers; but the fundamental ways they differ from the "Mercantiles" involve having very deep ties to the land; a commitment to the nurturance of existing assets and the creation of new ones; a belief in the generation of value by the tending of their ancestral bounty and the exercise of their own skills rather than the wanton exploitation of resources and the skimming of trade profits; a devotion to the idea that what is possessed now must be built upon and bettered for the good of generations to come rather than squandered or betrayed for the profits of next week.

When the Turko-Afghans first invaded our subcontinent, many of the kingdoms that fell soonest, or betrayed each other, were afflicted by the "Mercantile" mentality. Those who held out longest were "Cultivators", such as some Rajput kingdoms, or states where the "Cultivator" mindset encompassed and subordinated the "Mercantile", such as Vijayanagara. When resistance to the Mughal rule came, it was from "Cultivators" who were literally farmers and animal herders, in Marathwada and the Punjab.

With success and decadence, kingdoms founded by "Cultivators" eventually fell prey, as they always do, to "Mercantile" interests... leading to their inevitable enervation.

M.K. Gandhi realized that when the time came to oust the British, it could not be achieved by a Congress party that was to a large extent "Mercantile", but required his leadership in the role of a "Cultivator" archetype that he took great pains to validate by deliberately discarding all the trappings that the masses associated with "Mercantilism".

Coming back to the point of my post, the effect of this neo-centripetal aggregation that the present GOI has undertaken, has been not only to "Mercantilise" the centre of power but also to marginalize the "Cultivators" into petty satrapies. For, when overwhelmed and defeated, the "Cultivator" does not seek to expand but rather withdraws into the small ideological and literal territory that he feels sure he can defend for his children.

"Mercantilism", given its proper place to flourish, is not entirely a bad thing. Look at the British Empire, after all, founded by a "nation of shopkeepers". "Mercantilism" is virile, rapacious and expansionist to the core. Ideally its place to flourish should be beyond the borders of one's own nation. The hallowed ground of the urheimat itself, must be handed to the Cultivators to preserve.
Brihaspati wrote:
a very significant thought. Would you like to cross post and join in the discussion on the nationa agenda thread with the same post? I have been trying to have a discussion on the land/land-use question, with my tentative outline proposals for having jointly owned community land trusts. I believe, that what you are saying politically is something that belongs to the same group of ideas as I have tried to say on the economic side.

We cannot completely ignore those voices which speak in terms of sustainable lifestyles based on the land and its cumulative knowledge. I see this as going back to our civilizational roots, not just as an exercise in flights of romantic fancy. But also an urgent task to consolidate and rediscover the nation and its identity. Every resurgence to national consolidation and revival needs a political constituency, and must be part of a comprehensive mass movement that incorporates ideological, cultural, economic, and political re-alignments.
Sustainable development has to be done in a manner that many of the individual sub-units in the local are more or less self-sufficient for most part. Merely increasing the infrastructure capacity will not solve the problem, just as improvement in road traffic conditions will lead to people spending more time on the road on longer drives. The earlier model of sustainable development was to make significant progress centered at multiple points within a sub-region, so as to self sufficient. The mercantilism at its hilts tends to render the common man to be dependent on organized corporations and other groups with fewer people wielding enormous power. Most of these organized units operate in mafia fashion running their fiefdoms, encouraging what is good for the moment.
Perenially looking for dividing up the pie, instead of expanding multiple pies (not expanding one single pie) should be the model. The current power distribution is geared towards debating about the division of the existing pie and if any thought of expansion of the pie is considered, it is sought towards one single pie which is easily controllable by vested interests.
Part of the problem is the mentality of populace is shaped to worship royalty and cult status preservation. For example, when more IITs were being considered there was significant opposition to that; citing brand dilution and other such nonsense. The process of cross-fertilization and additional development space is underappreciated due to overwhelming desire to preserve the cult status. Most would like to revolve around few institutions/establishments and elevate it to a pedestal and that status once achieved is maintained by actively disallowing and discouraging healthy complimentary developments.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

One concern within the National Agenda, can definitely be the procedures and foundations by which popular will is expressed. One manifestation of this has been the Constitution which was however never subjected to a popular referendum. So it was practically formulated by an elite group, and adopted by elected representatives of the people. Thus entire foundation of the Constitution is based on a two stage game - where first the common voter bargains among available choices of candidates and with the elected one, and then the elected ones bargain among themselves for power and other benefits. In this, the common bargaining issues at the two different stages need not be identical.

Least likely is the question of Constitutional reform going to be a common baragianing issue in both stages.

So in a sense it is not surprising that the demand for compulsory voting in elections is coming up from political elite. After NM, LPY has joined in th demand. More significant however is the fact that this demand is coming up from "regional" leaders and is sought to be ignored/suppressed by "central" leadership. The dynamics is obvious, in that the less is the voting percentage, more a central power elite can gain in bargaining with regional elite. Less percentage implies more disinterested voters and therefore indifferent to "centralized" power grabbing also.

However, there are deeper questions that arise. How democratic is it to force people to actually choose some candidate? In doing so, does the rashtra move away from giving the benefit of choice, even choice not to choose anyone in particular - to any citizen? What if undecided or reluctant voters simply waste their vote - does it at all help in gaining on the decisionmaking process? Can forcing undecided voters to vote can throw up random choices which can actually make clear winners difficult to emerge?

Instead of voting to elect representatives, why is there no demand for greater weightage to direct choices - like referendums on issues? Should we not bring the people closer to actually deciding for themselves on issues directly, rather than shift the responsibility to another person to decide for themselves? If there has to be compulsion to bring preople to a gretaer share in the decision making process, why not force them to get involved on issues directly? At least for a start, bring in provision for referendums being recognizable and initiable by any citizen, that demonstrates suffficient number of other citizens as supporters for a particular proposal? Moreover that the rashtra would then be bound to hold the referendum and accept the results as a valid and implementable law?
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Rahul Mehta »

brihaspati wrote:
1. One concern within the National Agenda, can definitely be the procedures and foundations by which popular will is expressed. ....

2. Instead of voting to elect representatives, why is there no demand for greater weightage to direct choices - like referendums on issues?

3. Should we not bring the people closer to actually deciding for themselves on issues directly, rather than shift the responsibility to another person to decide for themselves?

4. If there has to be compulsion to bring preople to a gretaer share in the decision making process, why not force them to get involved on issues directly?

5. At least for a start, bring in provision for referendums being recognizable and initiable by any citizen, that demonstrates suffficient number of other citizens as supporters for a particular proposal?

6. Moreover that the rashtra would then be bound to hold the referendum and accept the results as a valid and implementable law?
1. True. The procedure I propose is listed at http://petitiononline.com/rti2en . I would request all to propose the procedure they propose, so that we can clearer ideas.(*)

2. There is ample demand for direct means like referendum in citizens. Only 0.5% of population, the elitemen etc oppose the direct means. On BR, most are against referendum type means even if the cost on Govt is zero. You may want ask individual persons though.

3-6. Yes, Yes, Yes.

====

Dear All,

* - My asking for procedure code (aka drafts of the proposed legislations) is causing immense Takleef to many, and two admins scolded me for asking drafts and I suspect that in one case it was because a BRite complained admins that I my asking drafts is causing Takleeeef to them. But draftless proposals in laws cause Takleeef to me, and I will explain why. In Maths, a theorem on triangle will have no adverse side effects on circles. But unlike maths, a proposed law to solve problem-A can be side effects that would worsen problem-B. So unless one see that draft of the proposed law to solve problem-A, no one can be sure that side effects are less than benefits. Also, in Maths you seldom face questions on "how effective the theorem is". A theorem if true is true in 100% case, no exceptions. Whereas in law, you always wonder how may % of cases the proposed law may be or may not be able to solve. Here too, unless DRAFT is given no one can make claim on % cases in which the proposed law will solve the problem. So unless one gives draft, one cant comment on side effect and % efficiency. So I request all to provide the DRAFTS of the legislations they propose.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by enqyoob »

Rahulji:

The "takleef" is from the people who want to just :(( :(( :(( and never do anything about it. Coming up with actual proposals, etc. takes work. :eek: :shock:
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

The visualisation and implementation of the National Agenda has always been the prerogative of a very small group of people, they being Ministers and their advisers from various organisations duly debated by the representatives of the people in the Parliament. It requires no reiteration as it is too obvious that these issues, much that it would appear more democratic, cannot be thrown open to the population of India for debate since not all would have the knowledge and background to comprehend the issues. It is obvious that those who are in the 'seat' will decide the future and being educated and with specialised knowledge surely cannot be elitist!


However, the point is do we really have any National Agenda?


I wonder if we have. I am no expert, nor do I assume such a mantle, yet in my own way I feel that it is because of the continuous jockeying to build power centres amongst the political parties and even within single parties Agendas are totally self centred and not national. Thus, it is like the cartoon which came out when the Janata Govt was in place of a donkey being pulled in many directions by different factions.


As I see it, the voting system is flawed. When there was the paper ballot one could stamp two or more candidates to make it a NO vote. With the EVM that option has been snatched. Candidates standing for a Constituency need not appeal in so far as to what they stand for or as a personality. So, who to vote for? Maybe on the Election Manifesto promises. But they too are bogus! The voter is indeed in a quandary. To the majority, it is the bread and butter issues or strong party affiliations that make the vote. How many think of the larger issues of the Nation? Do the illiterate tiller of the land in Lakhikantapore understand what Montek Singh Ahluwalia is stating or the Copenhagen Summit or the Nuclear deal? Are these not important inputs to elect govts? All he understand is not the Inflation indexes, soaring GDP etc, but can he feed his family with the soaring prices of food. Not only he, I too!


NDA did well in governance and extraordinary they lost! The Maharastra govt’s performance was dismal and terrorists struck a horrendous blow with farmers’ suicides daily in Vidharba and yet they won! Odd! What drives the Indian voters?


Referendums cost money. If for every issue, referendums are held, then where will there be money to use for projects that is more essential for the people? I am not too sure how much the election process costs the Exchequer, but given the number of people and infrastructure including security force, I presume it is colossal!
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

One could read Ram Guha's piece.

Social Banditry
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

The cost of a referendum can be be lowered by consolidating all referendums that make the necessary grade (through procedural requirements), over a certain period - say the regular term of the Parliament/Assembly - together and add them to Parliamentary/Assembly elections (dependeing on context - if a referendum is only relevant for a particular state, it can coincide with Assembly elections)
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Rahul Mehta »

enqyoob wrote:Rahulji, The "takleef" is from the people who want to just :(( :(( :(( and never do anything about it. Coming up with actual proposals, etc. takes work. :eek: :shock:
I agree. But then :(( ing without proposing legislations to solve problem is cool in communities like "I hate Himesh Reshamia". Because when you are "hating Himesh Reshamia", it is implied that no solution is needed. But IMO BR should a level above "I hate Himesh Reshamia" and when person hates a problem, focus should be on legislation that can solve problem.

===
RayC wrote:The visualisation and implementation of the National Agenda has always been the prerogative of a very small group of people, they being Ministers and their advisers from various organisations duly debated by the representatives of the people in the Parliament. It requires no reiteration as it is too obvious that these issues, much that it would appear more democratic, cannot be thrown open to the population of India for debate since not all would have the knowledge and background to comprehend the issues. It is obvious that those who are in the 'seat' will decide the future and being educated and with specialised knowledge surely cannot be elitist!

However, the point is do we really have any National Agenda?
From National Agenda PoV, most Nbjprie (neta-babu-judges-IPS-regulators-elitemen-intellectuals) will appear like headless chickens running around on a wild geese chase. Thats because only 1% of them give a damn about nation, and rest 99% are smartly filling their coffers. So their each decision is full of smartness when looked from bribe-PoV, but looks totally insane when look from national PoV. But if you come down to citizens' level, despite variation on petty issues - there is a rock solid agreement on major National issues. The poorest of the poorest, including illiterates, want Military to be strengthened. They all agree that Pakistan should be split into 5 parts. When informed about nuke capability of China, they immediately agree with my "parity with China" doctrine and dump "minimal credible" doctrine. When told about wealth tax, income tax, VAT and regressiveness etc, there is no disagreement that India should adopt wealth tax and dump VAT. IOW, citizens have rock solid agreement on most issues. So while we have no National Agenda at elitemen level, but a well defined National Agenda at commons' level.
RayC: Referendums cost money. If for every issue, referendums are held, then where will there be money to use for projects that is more essential for the people? I am not too sure how much the election process costs the Exchequer, but given the number of people and infrastructure including security force, I presume it is colossal!

brihaspati: The cost of a referendum can be be lowered by consolidating all referendums that make the necessary grade (through procedural requirements), over a certain period - say the regular term of the Parliament/Assembly - together and add them to Parliamentary/Assembly elections (dependeing on context - if a referendum is only relevant for a particular state, it can coincide with Assembly elections)
The "cost" will depend only on the EXACT procedure you follow. And question is "cost on whom", not just total cost. eg Election cost Rs 1500 to GoI, while candidates may be spending Rs 30,000 crores. The cost on GoI is only issue we should worry about. If candidates are spending, it is their free will. It is really disappointing to see BRites arguing over cost in absence of exact procedural details. The cost on govt and tax payers is ZERO in "referendum like" procedure I have proposed . The draft of the procedure is at http://petitiononline.com/rti2en . And cost of referendum will be Rs 1500 crores if done in the way elections are carried out. And here is one cost free way to conduct referendum.

1. Any citizen can propose a referendum proposal for a fee of Rs 50
2. Any citizen can contribute Rs X towards the proposal. X is between 1 and infinity.
3. If a proposal gathers Rs 1500 cr, GoI will conduct referendum on that proposal
4. If referendum passes with over 37 cr YES, and if the proposal had a clause that GoI will pay Rs 2X to everyone who paid Rs X, then GoI will pay Rs 2X to everyone who paid Rs X.

So now cost of failed referendum is Rs 0 and cost successful referendum is Rs 3000 cr. The cost is ethically ok, because referendum is success and decision to pay Rs 2X was approved by majority. The old proposal of mine is IMO inferior to my latest proposal and so I no longer support this old proposal of mine. But what I want to say is that unless one gives ALL procedural details, no estimate or counter-estimate can be made about cost of referendum.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Carl_T »

I'm a longtime lurker who's just decided to start posting. {*OT Deleted}



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