Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) - Dec 30 - 2009

[CRamS]

Chargers pick Razzaq, signal IPL-Pak thaw

"One of our (international) players is injured and needs a surgery. Therefore, we needed a replacement and Razzaq fits the bill well because of his all-round abilities. There was never an issue about Pakistan players being deliberately not picked as has been talked about all along."

There you go, a bone is being thrown to the Pakis. While I am irritated about this cave in, this may lead to one good outcome. This could silence the wailing from the WKKs, the politicians and administrators and hopefully stop the nauseating lovefest in cricinfo from Indians to Pakis... sigh!

I don't understand your point about the one good outcome. Its like saying, one good outcome of India giving up the valley to TSP is that LeT attacks will stop. Its using another set of words to desrcibe abject surrender is it not?

By the way, I went on cricinfo, but couldn't find the lovefest you refer to. Can you post a link?

[pgbhat]

CRS please keep your BP in check.

NEW DELHI: Sports minister MS Gill on Wednesday praised the statements of Pakistan cricketers Shahid Afridi and Sohail Tanvir, who on Tuesday.
"I have seen the graceful response of some Pakistani cricketers. I welcome the remarks," Gill said. Gill said he was eagerly awaiting the India-Pakistan hockey World Cup clash.

[rgsrini]

India giving up the valley to TSP is that LeT attacks will stop.

Great going CRamS! Seriously... Is that what you could interpret from my post? I don't think any amount of additional explanation will help you understand my thoughts. What is next? "Did you say the weather is fantastic? How can you enjoy the weather when terrorists are shooting at us?"

Believe it or not CRamS, we don't control everything. Sometimes the outcome is not favorable to us. We can shout, scream until our throats dry out and we can sulk. Or we can see the silver lining and move on, especially if we can't do anything about it and/or if it is not earth shattering.

[Jarita]

I will be paying this people to bomb me. Great.
Where is Shiv Sena

[brihaspati]

ramanaji, you can move that post to Indian interests thread - if feasible. Saw too many posts taking it out on MKG and hence reacted.

[Rudradev]

A final word about cricket, IPL etc. Yes it is just a sport, and should not be blown out of proportion, but its political value as an emotive touchstone among the aam janata of the subcontinent cannot be underestimated.

Rudradevji - you are, IMO doing a dangerous equal equal to make a point that is not necessary. Whether Pakistan or anyone likes it or not India is the mover here. Cricket is a religion in India and Pakistan is a zero when it comes to crowd pulling and money. I accept that Pakistan has good players - but hey so does Sri Lanka.

So all this emotive hype of aam janata of the subcontinent is telling a lie and giving the impression that Pakistan has a share in making cricket the biggest and richest sport in the subcontinent. Well we could discuss economy, poverty and caste in the subcontinent on the same lines and have no problems about that since all involve the "aam janata of the subcontinent"

Use Google, Bing or Yahoo and search for "cricket is a religion" and see the country names that show up. Apart from good players and hype Pakistan is a zero. Indian cricket would be just as good and rich even if there were no Pakistan and no Pakistanis. There is no need to do this type of equal equal to make a point. The Paki cricket board is a flyweight and the absence of Paquis has made little difference to spectators in India. Why are you doing this?

It is an emotive touchstone in India. Not "The subcontinent". Period. What it is in Pakistan is of no concern to India. Paki cricketers are chosen or not chosen on the basis of the interests of the Indians involved. And security of Sachin or anyone else is a subset of the overall issue of security in India. An attack on Sachin would be equal to an attack on say Rahul Gandhi or Amitabh Bachhan.

I note that the GoI tends to warn Pakistan about a reaction before certain important days - and again - warning came just before Republic day. That warning came in conjunction with a warning from the US (Gates) telling Pakistan that the US would not oppose the idea that Pakistan needs to be punished. So the GoI and the USG are working in concert. The cricket issue must not be mixed up.

Shivji, I fail to see where I have done any equal-equal. I have not compared the cricket industry in India... BCCI, event management, promotional or financial with its counterparts in Pakistan. What I have said is simply that across the subcontinent... including Pakistan... aam janata see their national cricket teams as national icons in whom they invest a great deal of emotion. This makes perfect sense given piskological studies which contend that sports (particularly competitive team sports) are a sublimation/ritualization of war.

Cricketers are seen as heroes or champions in a ritualization of war in the subcontinent (as are soccer players in Latin America and Europe)... hence, aam janata are prone to manipulation by capitalizing on situations involving these public figures. I have no reason to believe this is less true in Pakistan than in India.

From personal experience I can only speak to the situation in India, where other than the Kargil war, the only occasions when I have ever seen complete, absorbed unity across many regions of the country and a very wide cross section of social classes were during an India-Pakistan cricket match. From what I have read/heard, it seems to be a similar situation among the aam janata of Pakistan. If you have data to refute this observation, please present it... my basis for asserting that it is so, is admittedly based on anecdotal evidence.

Meanwhile it seems to me that your tilting at the windmill of "cricket is a religion", actually feeds into more dangerous equal-equal than anything I have perpetrated. Many smarmy Western journalists portray Indo-Pak cricket as some kind of a "religious war" in a coy attempt to draw parallels with the Western myth of South Asian History: "Hindooo India and Muslim Pakistan have never got along because of religion, and hence their ignorant heathen people perceive cricket as yet another type of religious conflict between the two."

[Rony]

Brihaspati garu, brilliant post !

[Bhaskar]

See now, I am no fan of the Shiv Sena. But, would like the BJP-Shiv Sena to do whatever it takes to make sure no Pakistani player plays on the Indian soil.
What if another Mumbai happens. Who will secure Abdul Razzaq?

If SRK or anyone has a problem, they should start up the Pakistani Premier League.

[Masaru]

Chargers pick Razzaq, signal IPL-Pak thaw

"One of our (international) players is injured and needs a surgery. Therefore, we needed a replacement and Razzaq fits the bill well because of his all-round abilities. There was never an issue about Pakistan players being deliberately not picked as has been talked about all along."

So will the attacks stop in intensity or quantity now that H&D has been preserved and the cowering dhimmi SDREs have conceded the demands of the pure-landers. How much time will this great Chanakyan strategy buy GoI/IPL/Indian public to run business as usual? OT but IMHO by ascribing Chanakayan motives to every ill thought, half assed moves by either the state or private actors, people are just sullying the reputation of a great strategist of the ancient world.

Pure-landers have come out better in this saga and learned how to get what they want by whining and threatening. Even better and more cost effective than the thousand cuts strategy.

[shiv]

India giving up the valley to TSP is that LeT attacks will stop.

Great going CRamS! Seriously... Is that what you could interpret from my post? I don't think any amount of additional explanation will help you understand my thoughts. What is next? "Did you say the weather is fantastic? How can you enjoy the weather when terrorists are shooting at us?"

But seriously the Paki thread sometimes gets boring. So let us have a thread full of what will lift CRamS out of his chronic depression. We can do social service that way.

[shiv]

Meanwhile it seems to me that your tilting at the windmill of "cricket is a religion", actually feeds into more dangerous equal-equal than anything I have perpetrated. Many smarmy Western journalists portray Indo-Pak cricket as some kind of a "religious war" in a coy attempt to draw parallels with the Western myth of South Asian History: "Hindooo India and Muslim Pakistan have never got along because of religion, and hence their ignorant heathen people perceive cricket as yet another type of religious conflict between the two."

In fact that is why I mentioned Internet search engines. The refernce to cricket is a religion throws up India no matter what some firangi journalists say. So it is not a "subcontinental" thing. It is Indian. Not Pakistan. No Paki has ever called cricket his religion. I believe it is you who fell for the firangi rhetoric by going to the egregious extent of comparing India to some two bit South American state that went to war. That again has been done by some Western journalsist and you use it to make your point. That was a needless body blow.

[JwalaMukhi]

See now, I am no fan of the Shiv Sena. But, would like the BJP-Shiv Sena to do whatever it takes to make sure no Pakistani player plays on the Indian soil.

Bhaskarji,
Well, well it is better to know the netas. Well, the press has managed to create an image of lions out a bunch of puppies. Do not fault your falling into trap of image management, as even the people who are puppies think they are lions due to press.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_no ... ri_1337601

"I feel what is the fault of the cricketers in this. We also feel a cricketer is not an extremist nor is he a supporter (of terrorism). "Not all (Pakistani) citizens are like that or whole government is like that...this is not the case," he told CNN-IBN, when asked about Pakistani cricketers being kept out of the IPL bidding.
However, later Gadkari clarified that BJP was not against cricket or sports or against talks with Pakistan.

[Pranav]

Were Sohail's anti-Hindu rants even reporetd in the India media?

For the secular media, that is taboo, I guess.

This is the most interesting aspect of the SDRE response to Jihadist violence.

The 26/11 documentary was shown in UK and the US, but not in the country where 26/11 happened.

Bollywood has not made a single movie about the East Pakistan holocaust or about the Kashmiri Pandit ethnic cleansing.

What is it about us that makes us behave in this way? Is it some kind of Stockholm syndrome? Or like the shame a raped woman feels to talk about having been raped?

Maybe Shiv ji can enlighten.

[Pranav]

In fact that is why I mentioned Internet search engines. The refernce to cricket is a religion throws up India no matter what some firangi journalists say. So it is not a "subcontinental" thing. It is Indian. Not Pakistan. No Paki has ever called cricket his religion. I believe it is you who fell for the firangi rhetoric by going to the egregious extent of comparing India to some two bit South American state that went to war. That again has been done by some Western journalsist and you use it to make your point. That was a needless body blow.

Actually the Paqui team is thoroughly infiltrated by Tablighis and they regard cricket as part of their Jihad.

Pakistani cricket player and convert to Islam: "One day Islam will be the world's sole supreme religion"

It is understandable that Yousuf Youhana would have a convert's enthusiasm. But it is noteworthy how immediately he expresses that enthusiasm in terms of supremacy. "One day Islam will be the world's sole supreme religion: Yousuf Youhana," from ANI, with thanks to Sparta:

Pakistan cricket player Yousuf Youhana, a Christian by birth and the first non-Muslim to represent present Pakistan cricket team, has formally announced his conversion to Islam.

After offering Isha prayers at the house of Pakistan Hardware Merchants Association President Sheikh Imran Daud on Saturday, Yousaf said he had embraced Islam three years back, but he kept it secret due to unavoidable circumstances, and that his new name was Moahammad Yusuf.

The cricketer said there would be no non-Muslim in Pakistan provided the Muslims became true believers and start following in the footsteps of Hazrat Muhammad (SAW).

"This will also tend to initiate a global wave about embracing Islam by the non-believers. God willing, soon a day will come when Islam will be the sole supreme religion of the world," The News quoted him as saying.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/09/pakis ... igion.html

[shiv]

But, would like the BJP-Shiv Sena to do whatever it takes to make sure no Pakistani player plays on the Indian soil.

I personally would not like to see the BJP doing this. Shiv Sena are acting like a small regional player and I can't vouch for them.


But may I point out how you have been insidiously gathered up into the group that eventually add up to equal equal in the following way

BJP
BJP-Shiv Sena
BJP-Shiv Sena-RSS
BJP-Shiv Sena-RSS-Bajrang Dal
BJP-Shiv Sena-RSS-Bajrang Dal-Gujrat
BJP-Shiv Sena-RSS-Bajrang Dal-Gujrat-Samjhota
BJP-Shiv Sena-RSS-Bajrang Dal-Gujrat-Samjhota-Hindutva
BJP-Shiv Sena-RSS-Bajrang Dal-Gujrat-Samjhota-Hindutva-Indian extremism

In fact I am not sure if you are a BJP supporter or not. If you are not, your statement is par for the course. If you are - it is an own goal.

1) The BJP and Shiv Sena are different - but BJP-Shiv Sena is equalequal
2) Suggesting that they do this silly task of keeping cricket grounds clear of Paki cricketers is killing two birds with one stone. Let this silly job be done by people who have been selected (BJP-Shiv Sena) to behave like yahoos, and they can be called patriots as long as they do this idiotic thing . If the act ends up looking stupid at a later date (as it probably will) one can always wash our hands of the BJP-Shiv Sena as hindutvadis and notch up a goal to the much loved UPA.

Why not put in some thought before making such statements?

[shiv]

Actually that Paqui team is thoroughly infiltrated by Tablighis and they regard cricket as part of their Jihad.

So you are saying that allowing Paki cricketers in is allowing jihad into cricket, and an India Pakistan match is like a religious war. Who needs Western journalists to do an equalequal between IndiaPakistan? We have it right here.

[Pranav]

Actually that Paqui team is thoroughly infiltrated by Tablighis and they regard cricket as part of their Jihad.

So you are saying that allowing Paki cricketers in is allowing jihad into cricket, and an India Pakistan match is like a religious war. Who needs Western journalists to do an equalequal between IndiaPakistan? We have it right here.

Actually what I would like is for India to accept those Pakistanis who properly look upon life-forms like Dawood, Hafiz Saeed, Syed Salahuddin and the ISI as the vermin that they are.

Unfortunately too many Pakis are brainwashed via their school text-books and Madrassas. Nevertheless I am sure there will be many Balochis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Shias, Ahmedis, secularists etc who will have the right outlook. These are the people we need to encourage, not the incorrigible brainwashed fanatics.

[Jarita]

I just don't want them in India. I don;t want them to benefit from the sport while they are killing our soldiers across the border. Don't want them to be cheered, nothing.
This is so disturbing that this Razzaq a&*hole will be celebrated in India while his country is bleeding us.
They can say what they want but the average Pakistani is quite radicalized including the born again cricket team. Who are the delusional pple who believe that people to people contact will make any difference. There was plenty of people to people contact before the partition and that did not help the folks who had to run away from Pakistan.

[Prem]

Meeting India's military challenge
Munna Akram ( Bibbi beatne walee of Nyc fame)

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=221109

Pakistan cannot, of course, afford to match India's military build up. Its response will have to be defensive, asymmetrical, innovative, and achieved at much lower cost. Pakistan's forces may need to do some tactical rethinking. For example, an Indian tank force can be more effectively destroyed by drones and missiles rather than a matching tank force. A large surface navy can be seriously damaged by submarines and mobile missile-boats. The eight Indian "battle groups" may be more mobile; but they would also be vulnerable to encirclement and destruction. Rather than spread themselves thin to defend the entire Eastern border, Pakistani forces could adopt an offensive-defensive strategy, focusing a thrust into Kashmir to bottle up half a million Indian troops there.Following the post-Mumbai situation and the emergence of India's Cold Start strategy, Pakistan's armed forces have undertaken extensive war games to counter this threat. If the Indians have watched these closely, they should be clear in their minds that the danger of conventional adventurism escalating to the nuclear level cannot be ruled out. This was the general conclusion in 2002 -- confirmed among others by Pentagon war games. The Indo-Pakistan "composite dialogue" was restarted in 2003 on the basis of the mutual recognition that a military conflict between the two nuclear-armed countries was too dangerous to contemplate.

[ramana]

While they might have war gamed many things the real deal in FATA/WANA by Pakiban doesn't say much about the TSPA.

[shiv]

I just don't want them in India. I don;t want them to benefit from the sport while they are killing our soldiers across the border. Don't want them to be cheered, nothing.

OK - I accept this as a statement coming from the heart.

But we are talking hard-headed politics here and politics is never straightforward. It is a toss up between loss/gains for India by including them versus loss/gains for India by not including them.

What has actually happened IMO is funnier than keeping them out. They have been given a slap and then thrown scraps. To me the interesting part is that the slap was not given by GoI but corporate India. I used to have a PT master (in school) who would slap everyone standing out of line and then put him in line. "You have to get slapped also and stand in line also, and you can get slapped again tomorrow. Also. No promises"

[Prem]

PAGAL SEE-GAL ki Suno, ( A former POW of 1971 fame)

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=221111

The element of hypocrisy is palpable. India's fingerprints are all over Swat and FATA. The Indians have been actively stoking the fires in Balochistan. India must behave responsibly with the countries on its periphery, particularly Pakistan. The water issue has dangerous and ominous overtones. Tens of millions will starve to death without the rivers. The Indians are violating the Indus Basin Treaty. What option will we have except to fight if we face desertification ( Pakistan can use its Jinn power to soak all the water in Baghliar)

[shiv]

PAGAL SEE-GAL ki Suno, ( A former POW of 1971 fame)

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=221111

The element of hypocrisy is palpable. India's fingerprints are all over Swat and FATA.

Sehgaljee, check your genes. Indian semen is all over your own genetic map. Why fret? The hypocrisy is yours. You represent an area of land that is no more than a couple of Indian states. Pakistan was a couple of Indian states and will never be more than that.

[Jarita]

I just don't want them in India. I don;t want them to benefit from the sport while they are killing our soldiers across the border. Don't want them to be cheered, nothing.

OK - I accept this as a statement coming from the heart.

But we are talking hard-headed politics here and politics is never straightforward. It is a toss up between loss/gains for India by including them versus loss/gains for India by not including them.

What has actually happened IMO is funnier than keeping them out. They have been given a slap and then thrown scraps. To me the interesting part is that the slap was not given by GoI but corporate India. I used to have a PT master (in school) who would slap everyone standing out of line and then put him in line. "You have to get slapped also and stand in line also, and you can get slapped again tomorrow. Also. No promises"

I'll tell you what will happen. In the stadiums people will be cheering for their favorite teams. He will get moolah, women and wine (all from us). The candle wallah brigade will bring in new recruits - look how nice Razzaq is. We love Razzaq.
At a psychological level I only see a negative fallout.
The country has to be united and think clearly at this stage. As it is the WKK crowd is generating enough confusion. This will just add to it.
The only people impacted from this people to people sham are the Indians. We are the only ones who soften. I guarantee you nothing will change core Pakistani temperament until the country faces a massive upheavel. It was these people who kicked the minorities out when the same minorities were their best friends and neighbours for generations. Add to that the water under the bridge since then.

[shiv]

I'll tell you what will happen. In the stadiums people will be cheering for their favorite teams. He will get moolah, women and wine (all from us). The candle wallah brigade will bring in new recruits - look how nice Razzaq is. We love Razzaq.
At a psychological level I only see a negative fallout.

Look at this in another way. Look at the Indian who works abroad for the money and hates it. He goes because he is being paid. But he is not being paid to love his employer or his employers country.

But is the employer stupid for employing this ingrate Indian? Probably not. The Indian's father and the GoI have paid for or subsidized the man's education so they (the employers) are getting a cheap employee with lesser rights whom they did not have to educate. The total lifetime salary of the employee is less than the amount saved in setting up training colleges and staffing them and paying locals trained locally. So the labor importing nation like UK/US are actually making money

IPL gets a man or two from Pakistan, but IPL collects money from TV broadcasters. TV broadcasters collect money from every advertiser in the country that they broadcast to. Money will be collected from Paki advertisers too for beams pointing at Pakistan (and countries with Paki expatriates). The aid money that gets paid to Pakistan will be channeled to IPL in a small way and the salary of the Paki is peanuts in comparison.

Consider Paki IPL players imported labor who are being used for making money for IPL. As long as IPL makes money - that is similar to any private Indian company making money.

[yvijay]

Chargers pick Razzaq, signal IPL-Pak thaw

Deccan Chronicle news paper, whose owners own the deccan chargers team, doesn't have any news about it.

[anupmisra]

Democracy deterred Indian attack, says Taseer

Governor Salman Taseer has said that India would have attacked Pakistan after the Mumbai attacks of 26/11 if there had not been democracy in the country.

He said democracy was our strength

Carrying on with pakjabi logic, the imbecile went on to say:

Talking about the recent drive of demolition of illegal plaza in Lahore, Taseer said it should not have been done in the way it was being done. He said if someone would park his car in a wrong way he was fined but his car was not supposed to be damaged and same was the case with plazas.

[RamaY]

Consider Paki IPL players imported labor who are being used for making money for IPL. As long as IPL makes money - that is similar to any private Indian company making money.

Ti-che'-kham'

You beat me there Shiv-ji. So private indian companies == IPL and fake-experience-cyber-coolies==paki-kricketers?

How can you do == between a smelly-unreliable-SDRW with krikett-gawd-TSPAs, hain? thausand stribes upon you (even if you are my mulllah)

[Bhaskar]

In fact I am not sure if you are a BJP supporter or not. If you are not, your statement is par for the course. If you are - it is an own goal.

I am not a BJP supporter after Atal Bihari Vajapayee left the party sir. I personally do not like any of the parties, but do pick Congress as I feel Manmohan Singh will do a better job than L.K. Advani and I believe in Secular Politics.

Bhaskarji,
Well, well it is better to know the netas. Well, the press has managed to create an image of lions out a bunch of puppies. Do not fault your falling into trap of image management, as even the people who are puppies think they are lions due to press.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_no ... ri_1337601

"I feel what is the fault of the cricketers in this. We also feel a cricketer is not an extremist nor is he a supporter (of terrorism). "Not all (Pakistani) citizens are like that or whole government is like that...this is not the case," he told CNN-IBN, when asked about Pakistani cricketers being kept out of the IPL bidding.
However, later Gadkari clarified that BJP was not against cricket or sports or against talks with Pakistan.

Well, I feel Shahrukh Khan's and Chidambaram's statements after the country supported that Pakistani players should be kept out of IPL was a little immature. It would have been best to keep mum on this sensitive issue. We ourselves made this a big issue when it wasn't. We ourselves did what Pakistanis wanted of deflecting Pakistan's responsibility of punishing the perpetrators of 26/11 into the good-old diplomatic war or mere words.

[CRamS]

I didn't catch Obama's speech in its entirety, but caught the part where he spoke of the so called 'war on terror'. Not a word about TSP. Or did I miss something?

[sum]

Governor Salman Taseer has said that India would have attacked Pakistan after the Mumbai attacks of 26/11 if there had not been democracy in the country.

Isnt he the ex-husband of Tavleen Singh?

The son of Salman/Tavleen has written a book about his travels through muslim lands and the hypocrisy in the Islamic world. He says he got inspired to do that after getting a dose of pakiness when he went to meet his ex-dad.

The book is a really good read , esp the BRF type arguments he makes when confronted by Pakis and Saudis in their own land.

[Jarita]

^^^ Not husband but ex affair of Tavleen Singh.
He was also employee of Sonia ji in London as per Subramaniyum Swamy

[Bhaskar]

Deccan Chargers denied taking Abdul Razzaq.
I don't have a link yet but it is on NDTV live right now.

[disha]

I didn't catch Obama's speech in its entirety, but caught the part where he spoke of the so called 'war on terror'. Not a word about TSP. Or did I miss something?

No. And a good thing too. TSP thrives on attention - even negative. Best way to deal with TSP is to do them and then ignore them!

[Nihat]

I have never understood Paki military contradiction. If they have so much faith in their armed forces in defending against India then why talk about Nukes in the first place , the fact that they do threaten Nuke strike at the first chance is representative of the fact that TSP armed forces are incapable of defending an Indian Invasion. Ditto about the Support from China too , a string military never needs outside support to fight a War.

[disha]

Deccan Chargers denied taking Abdul Razzaq.
I don't have a link yet but it is on NDTV live right now.

I think the IPL tamasha has gone too far. It is now looking like the perenial tear jerking Saas-Bahun serial. And have to figure out who is Saas and who is bahun!

[disha]

I have never understood Paki military contradiction.... nukes

One has to eat grass to understand the contradiction!

Anyway, a paki always has to have the biggest (females included). Now how do you flaunt it? Nukes are the ultimate weapons and hence the fetish to acquire it, even if it does not make strategic sense. And of course for a mango abdul, the paki army men are the biggest langurs and hence the fawning on them and their mijjiles.

It is like the other day, my favourite paki went out and got a big Audi, just to show that she has arrived "again". Problem was she did not have money and got a second hand Audi (but kept it hidden, till somebody noticed 15k miles on it).

[Masaru]

Look at this in another way. Look at the Indian who works abroad for the money and hates it. He goes because he is being paid. But he is not being paid to love his employer or his employers country.But is the employer stupid for employing this ingrate Indian? Probably not.

The aid money that gets paid to Pakistan will be channeled to IPL in a small way and the salary of the Paki is peanuts in comparison.

Nice equal equal here! How many of these employees will get a visa to visit US/US, forget about earning money there if yahoos from their home countries routinely do stuff that Pakis do in India?

How much money was made from purelander advertisers in IPL-1, and did that cover the expenses incurred by the clubs in hosting the purelanders?

[debadutta]

Looks like Outlook has picked up Sohail Tanvir's remarks.
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?263943

[Bhaskar]

And have to figure out who is Saas and who is bahun!

It'll always be a mystery.