Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) - Dec 30 - 2009

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 27 Jan 2010 20:27

^^^^^
Simple Watson, simple.

Some babus hope that by appeasing TSP (or at least giving that impression), GoI can buy some
time and reprieve from repeated terror attacks or such attempts. So that babus don't have to
be on toes all the time to prevent such things. More time for shopping and siesta.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Jan 2010 20:32

But that is not a wise assumption. An intel officer would know this does not work.

My question is why do they suggest this at all? They know something I for one don't understand.

Why does India do Havanas, S-E-S at all and that too repeateadly? It can't be that MMS is solely responsible - that he has complete control over foreign policy. There is something more.

Is india being too chanakyan? Keep the enemy humoured? But what's the point if the pak fauj is not involved?

When people of this background say "India must talk to pakistan", unless they mean GoI must talk to the Pak Fauj, this does not make sense at all.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Jan 2010 20:37

SSridhar wrote:Former RAW Special Secretary says we must talk to Pakistan
...resumption of dialogue with Pakistan will help marginalise the terrorists responsible for the incident and is the only way to contribute to peace in the region.

India must be mature rather than “prickly” in its diplomacy.

“The Indian public is, however, quite convinced that the ordinary citizens and intelligentsia in Pakistan are not involved in this. ”

One possibility is that the author is looking for a more prominent role in the now post retirement era with the current dispensation.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Jan 2010 20:44

Another way of looking at it, is that terrorism is beginning to win. Americans trying to cut and run, negotiating with the taliban.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 27 Jan 2010 20:48

My view on the above is that once retired, Indian government officers (ex-officers) do not have lucrative sinecures to occupy them. Hence, the proclivity to fall for junkets sponsored by entities like Pugwash, German NGOs and the like. Of course, the trade off seems quite favourable to the retired officers..a few days in some foreign locale (or an Indian resort); a chance of more future junkets just to mouth off some meaningless, pious sounding Aman ki Aasha type platitude. Of course, most dont see the damage they are causing. This inability to hanker for personal enderaments extends across the Indian spectrum from ex IFS to ex-Military to civil servants and of course politicians that have lost their recent elections and are more at home in the salons of Lahore rather than the woods of Mayiladuthurai!

The sad part is I dont see a counter to this phenomenon..after all if ex US Govt. officers can be bought off by the Pakis to speak favourably about Pakistan and ISI at Congressional hearings, the same kind of inducement will work for ex-GoI officials , especially if the inducement involves post retirement relevance of some kind..

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 27 Jan 2010 21:13

India must be mature rather than “prickly” in its diplomacy. The answer, he said, lay in New Delhi pushing for the creation of a “peace constituency” by encouraging trade and people-to-people contact, especially of journalists, sportspersons, artists, writers, lawyers, human rights activists, film stars and traders.

“The Indian public is, however, quite convinced that the ordinary citizens and intelligentsia in Pakistan are not involved in this. It is only a small misguided group, perhaps with official or semi-official patronage that is waging this terrorist war against India.”

“It is the majority middle class, intelligentsia and divided families who suffer the maximum by strained relations… We need to cultivate this segment by unilateral concessions if necessary by way of visas, facilities for medical and technical education, cultural, sports and film delegations etc.” He added that the “paranoia of our security services that this would facilitate infiltration of subversives needs to be ridiculed as they are already cross over in droves”.

Honestly what does one mean when they say India should talk with Pakistan. I mean come on, What exactly do we talk about ? What is that Pakistan can offer except for few more terrorists. I mean what is this crap about talk with Pakistan.

I wonder if folks in senior position still think that terrorists are a small bunch of mis-guided youth and they are the folks who decide our response to events like 26/11 and Kargil.
What is this about Pakistan that GOI and its babus just cannot formulate a tough response. How many Indians must die and how many miles of territories should unilaterally be handed over to Pakistan before we understand the true nature of this beast.
Basically what they are saying is to keep Pakistan happy lest they send few more of their own. When will we realize that we are not same people. We are as different from them as we are different from Afghans or Malaysians or Nauru or for that matter Na'vi tribe.

Am I turning into a Hawk or something is wrong with me when I read about such reports which might as well be written by Shireen mazari and feel like throwing up. Are we all on the same page I wonder.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Jan 2010 21:18

SSridhar wrote:Former RAW Special Secretary says we must talk to Pakistan

Such are the people who run our show

I wouldn't be as benign as you are. With guys like him having been in RAW is it any wonder why ISI can make a fool out of them. Each day we have more depresing news in Indian govt's dealing with TSP.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Jan 2010 21:20

SSridhar wrote:DT's Correspondent Iftikhar Gilani gets GoI award for outstanding contribution to journalism !

WTF? The thread is getting more and more depressing ( from Indian PoV)
Im sure Zaid Hamid is next in line for this award!!!

Man, the cresendo to restart talks is reaching a peak with everone from RAW spooks to IFS types and their uncles urging everyone to forgive and forget. With such a fickle memory and such softness, we are doomed onlee...

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Jan 2010 21:31

With TSPA/ISI giving rest to their LeT boys while they cash the Mumbai check through all this morons ki tamasha, I am wondering what are these LeT boys up to? I mean they need target practice from time to time, and we are talking 1000s of such yahoos under Kiyani's command, and more willing to join. I mean it takes a lot of resources maintaining them, and in any case, these guys are trained to go for the 72, so there is only so much military training they can get, i.e., ambiush, kill as many as is possible, and then get to the virgins. Thus, with the "boys" ready to go, how does Kiyani keep them bottled up?

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Jan 2010 21:33

CRamS wrote:With TSPA/ISI giving rest to their LeT boys while they cash the Mumbai check through all this morons ki tamasha, I am wondering what are these LeT boys up to? I mean they need target practice from time to time, and we are talking 1000s of such yahoos under Kiyani's command, and more willing to join. I mean it takes a lot of resources maintaining them, and in any case, these guys are trained to go for the 72, so there is only so much military training they can get, i.e., ambiush, kill as many as is possible, and then get to the virgins. Thus, with the "boys" ready to go, how does Kiyani keep them bottled up?

Having some warmup sessions in Afghanistan till the callup comes?

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 27 Jan 2010 21:55

SSridhar wrote:
Sri wrote: Afridi also says he wants to play.... then what the whole fuss is about??? Poor kabaddi guys ... much ado about nothing...
Probably the whole fuss was about two things; One, the Pakistani players, after their T20 win, could have demanded enormous fees much more than they deserve or the franchisees were willing to pay and second, there is a real risk of Pakistani players playing in India, especially Mumbai, as after all the raw emotions of the 26/11 siege will be there, at least as embers, and no one can guarantee safety for them. In IPL-2, some of the Pakistani players were taken to South Africa (except by three teams) though they stayed put in the hotels, with the team owners footing their travel bills. I don't know if they also got paid in the end, partly at least, if not the whole money. The IPL team owners are hard-nosed commercial people, what with one of the owners just completing a course in Harvard on 'Negotiating Skills'. Pakistan, after frequently and disparagingly referring to India as a Bania country, should know it only too well.

Pakistan would convert even quarter chances into catches against India, like how one Mr. Eknath Solkar used to do in the 70s. How can they let go of a huge insult now ? They are also well known for conjuring up conspiracy theories.

Afridi is probably saying things now perhaps because he knows that his game would be up if the team owner released his eMail or telephone conversations (if recorded) on what he demanded. He would at least settle for a lesser amount rather than foregoing it all. WHo will pay him this kind of money, even a 100 or 150 thousand dollars ? His performance has mostly been lacklusture except in one or two matches in the T20 World Cup.

Sridhar Sir,
The problem is that IPl is not only about winning matches, as you pointed out in earlier, it’s a money making operation. Period… Heck!!! The team with the worst performance on field is the best performer in terms of brand value (KKR). IPL owners do not owe any explanation to anyone on how they choose to spend their money and run their teams. The problem is like this…
1) There are disciplinary problems with Pakistani players (not all but most). Mohd Asif was arrested in Dubai as he was carrying the M thing from India while returning from IPL. Since he was caught in Dubai after the IPL, the franchise was thanking his stars, cos if he was detained in Mumbai airport the media frenzy would have been entirely different.
2) There is always this overhang of Indo Pak relationship.
3) Secondary sponsors (guys who give money for whole team for short media burst) are not comfortable backing Pakistani players right now. Thus the asking price for Pakistani players is very high. There are examples where whole teams have been featured in ads less the Pakistani players. Even teams in there promo videos did not feature any Pakistanis.
4) IPL does NOT make a dime in Pakistan. Most Pakistanis watch matches on cable, and do not pay for subscriptions; Pakistani companies do not sponsor IPL teams. Very less Indian sponsors are in Pakistan to do cross country promotion (believe me Indian players do better than Pakistani counterparts in that in Pakistan).
5) Last but not the list… these dudes have some misplaced attitude. Throughout the year they were after IPL management for letting them play in this season even though none of the franchise had enquired about them… When in the end they were given the chance, the jacked up their previously listed prices, saying they are noe the world champions….
Guess what… no one is buying the BS anymore….
I know in the end Pakistanis will play, but for a lot less money…. That’s exactly what the franchise want…. A good bargain….

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2010 21:59

Kati wrote:^^^^^
Simple Watson, simple.

Some babus hope that by appeasing TSP (or at least giving that impression), GoI can buy some
time and reprieve from repeated terror attacks or such attempts. So that babus don't have to
be on toes all the time to prevent such things. More time for shopping and siesta.

Most likely reason. Next two years are crucial for economic growth to take off during the world wide slump.

However it will reinforce the Paki psyche.

Rajamohan's prescription is to give more room for massa. However he thinks India need not get anything in return. Not even a token trial with the 26/11 lodged in guest houses.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 27 Jan 2010 22:04

SSridhar wrote:Former RAW Special Secretary says we must talk to Pakistan
A former intelligence official and member of the two-man R.D. Pradhan committee which probed the police response to the November 2008 terrorist attacks in Mumbai has said the resumption of dialogue with Pakistan will help marginalise the terrorists responsible for the incident and is the only way to contribute to peace in the region.

India must be mature rather than “prickly” in its diplomacy. The answer, he said, lay in New Delhi pushing for the creation of a “peace constituency” by encouraging trade and people-to-people contact, especially of journalists, sportspersons, artists, writers, lawyers, human rights activists, film stars and traders.

“The Indian public is, however, quite convinced that the ordinary citizens and intelligentsia in Pakistan are not involved in this. It is only a small misguided group, perhaps with official or semi-official patronage that is waging this terrorist war against India.”

“It is the majority middle class, intelligentsia and divided families who suffer the maximum by strained relations… We need to cultivate this segment by unilateral concessions if necessary by way of visas, facilities for medical and technical education, cultural, sports and film delegations etc.” He added that the “paranoia of our security services that this would facilitate infiltration of subversives needs to be ridiculed as they are already cross over in droves”.
Such are the people who run our show

Probably served a wee too long under the Gujral regime, I guess.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2010 22:10

SSridhar wrote:Former RAW Special Secretary says we must talk to Pakistan

India should also avoid over-reacting to insignificant pronouncements from across the border and “rein in rabid politicians and ‘security specialist’ hawks” whose statements tend to challenge the integrity of Pakistan.

"Rabid politicians" and "Security specialist hawks" to be reined in? I wonder whom he is referring to? I suspect Brahm Chellaney/Bharat Karnad/Parthasarathy are in his sights and that irritates me. This man is wrong. Just because he was a babu posted in RAW does not make his statements gospel truth.

Clearly he is taking a pot shot at fellow Indians whom he disagrees with. He represents one side of the spectrum of opinions on Pakistan and is expressing an opinion. Opinions are like ar******s. Everyone has one. Me too. Some stink more than others.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 27 Jan 2010 22:20

^^^ He is unkil ki billi

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 27 Jan 2010 22:25

I keep waiting for the materialization of the Chankian moves the govt might have made but alas those never materialize thereby making one believe that the moves are
- Deliberate to hurt India or give some other country an advantage
- Careless mistakes (which is equally bad)

Subramaniyam swamy might be right about Antonia Maino. He also claims that the current UPA govt came into power through defence kickbacks (are these the nuke deal kickbacks??)

http://www.janataparty.org/sonia.html

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 27 Jan 2010 22:26

Jarita wrote:^^^ He is unkil ki billi

Seriously, he is a kissinger ka mouthpiece

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Jan 2010 22:41

Although India is receiving robust portfolio investments (in stocks), what India needs is Foreign Direct Investments.

"I can at least see projects worth $250 billion which can get executed in the next 3 years," Kochhar said, relishing the change of mood in this year's WEF gathering from the sombre one last January.

"Last January most corporate had given up investment plans and said that we want to watch how the situation emerges," she said, adding the Indian brigade is much more optimistic this year than it was a year ago.

250 billion USD in FDI next 3 years

Now if we look at this, i don't think India should do anything to derail this sort of investment money coming in. Paki's will do everything to derail this sort of monumental growth we are gonna see in the next 3-5 years. Even if we achieve 70% of the above investment we are talking of a massive change in India. Things which we have been accustomed to seeing in out Northern neighbour for the last few years.

Looking at it from that perspective, maybe the GOI is wanting to cool things down a bit.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 Jan 2010 22:45

India is a big , huge country of some very confused people , how can we ever expect the nation to speak in one voice. Ultimetly it's about the voices that matter and the action they follow it up with. Heck , even our PM went ahead and said we'll talk but nothing happened after that.

Sweet talk and aman ki asha + IPL sympathy is all good until the men who matter don't start believing in these things and follow it up with action.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 27 Jan 2010 23:43

India must be mature rather than “prickly” in its diplomacy.

Does he any evidence that India is currently being "prickly" and further that it is not working?
Heck, if this is the level of strategic thinking and policy options provided to the Executive -
Can anyone blame the politicians for taking sub-optimal decisions?

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 27 Jan 2010 23:46

'Why do Asian teams employ foreign coaches?' - Akram

Why do these people want to jump into the Asia / South-Asia bandwagon when it comes to wiggling out money/contracts. What happens to the TFTA pride based on the Turk-Arab lineage ?

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 28 Jan 2010 00:11

What will be BrFites reaction if lets say Akram was appointed as bowling coach for TI ?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 28 Jan 2010 00:32

Ready to meet Qureshi for talks, says Krishna
http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/jan/ ... ureshi.htm

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 28 Jan 2010 00:48

anishns wrote:What will be BrFites reaction if lets say Akram was appointed as bowling coach for TI ?

It will be hailed as Chanakyan by some, derided with scron and contempt by people like me, and the former will dismiss my impotent anger as ranting, which it would be

.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 28 Jan 2010 00:51

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Ready to meet Qureshi for talks, says Krishna
http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/jan/ ... ureshi.htm

Why not arange a meeting with Hafeez Saeed and discuss the modalities of handing over Kashmir on a silver platter. Wouldn't that be the ultimate "statesmanship"? Why go through this roundabout song and dance?

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 28 Jan 2010 01:11

Indian money talks: Afridi, Tanvir want to forgive and forget

LAHORE: Money talks, and in cricket Indian money talks a language that is the first preference of all international cricketers and administrators. Barely a week after all-rounder Shahid Afridi said that the Indian Premier League (IPL) and India had made fun of Pakistan players and the country by not bidding for them at the auction, the Pakistan Twenty20 captain says that he is willing to forgive and forget and he has gotten over the anger and hurt he felt at being ‘snubbed’. His team-mate Sohail Tanvir has joined him, saying ‘I have nothing personal against India and if any opportunity arises in future where I am invited to play in the IPL or Champions League I will definitely go to play if my seniors do the same.’

This is the same Tanvir who – in an interview to a Pakistani news channel – had said that the Hindus had shown their true colours. It is the same Tanvir who claimed in the afore-said interview that Pakistan players never wanted to play in the IPL, but the IPL came begging for them to take part. “After the IPL auction I was deeply hurt and angry, the way Pakistan players were treated was disrespectful and in my view wrong. Whose fault it was. I don’t know. In times like these as a Muslim the examples of our Prophet has guided me and I’m therefore willing to forgive and forget what has happened and look forward,” he told a website Pakpasion.net.

Afridi takes u-turn, says not interested in IPL

"I am not at all interested in taking part in the IPL.

These issues of Pakistani cricketers should have been sorted out before the auction," Afridi told PTI-Bhasha over phone from Adelaide.

"I have forgotten what happened in the IPL auction in Mumbai. But everybody in Pakistan is very disappointed and angry with the insult.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Jan 2010 01:16

These Paki Players must be bought in next auction so they can play in India. GOI should tax their receipt while they play for IPL etc.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 28 Jan 2010 01:20

The issue here is that TSPA sees everything with 1971 prism and not 1947 glasses.
If you talk with any high level TSPA officer, the usual refrain is "So what LET is trained by retired officers. In 1971 the whole Mukti Bahini was trained by active IA officers."

So the argument should not be who trained whom and when? The real argument here is "what is the policy end goal"
The end goal of TSPA in 1971 was elimination of majority of Bangla ruling class. That has never been the goal of Indian Polity. After all how many IM have immigrated to TSP, even from Gujarat. The count is zero and in fact negative since there has been immigration from karachi.
So the real takleef to TSPA is that India has become a better home for Muslims than even TSP, leave alone BD.
Once critical number of TSP junta realizes it, the Raison d'être for TSPA goes away together with all its power accruments.
For example the Afghans already know this that Indian way is better than TSP way, BD has also come to realize it.
That's the purpose of track 2 diplomacy, to make TSPA realize what TSP aam junta already knows, that Indian way is better for South Asian Muslims than TSP way.
TSPA has always been an army in search of a nation and will always be.

shiv wrote:
"Rabid politicians" and "Security specialist hawks" to be reined in? I wonder whom he is referring to? I suspect Brahm Chellaney/Bharat Karnad/Parthasarathy are in his sights and that irritates me. This man is wrong. Just because he was a babu posted in RAW does not make his statements gospel truth.

Clearly he is taking a pot shot at fellow Indians whom he disagrees with. He represents one side of the spectrum of opinions on Pakistan and is expressing an opinion. Opinions are like ar******s. Everyone has one. Me too. Some stink more than others.

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 28 Jan 2010 01:28

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I was reading a book titled "The 48 laws of Power", and one of the chapters had a quote from Chanakya.

Crush your Enemy Totally
All great leaders since Moses have known that a feared enemy must be crushed completely. (Sometimes they have learned this the hard way.) If one ember is left alight, no matter how dimly it smolders, a fire will eventually break out. More is lost through stopping halfway than through total annihilation: The enemy will recover, and will seek revenge. Crush him, not only in body but in spirit.

This is what India failed to do in 1948, 1965, 1971 and 200x. Therefore a castrated PA still have the audacity to train LET ....

R. Krithivas

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 28 Jan 2010 01:38

^^^ That book is some mean karma.
Most of it is western ethos of destroy all you can to survive

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2010 01:42

The Indian goal is to kill the virus that afflicts them and not the bearers.

Meanwhile stop the presses!

SOURCE

LeT behind 26/11 attack; Pak corroborates statements of Kasab

PTI | Islamabad

All the seven terrorists arrested in Pakistan for their involvement in the Mumbai attack belonged to LeT and there is "sufficient incriminating evidence against them," investigators have said.

Pakistani investigators in a report to an anti-terrorism court also corroborated the statement made by Ajmal Amir Kasab, the lone gunman arrested in Mumbai.

The report presented to the court conducting the trial of seven accused, including LeT operations commander Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi – states that there is "sufficient incriminating evidence on record against those arrested for orchestrating the Mumbai attacks."

The report further said that evidence collected by Pakistani investigators had corroborated the statement made by Ajmal Amir Kasab, the lone attacker arrested in Mumbai.

Pakistani prosecutors and investigators have also categorically stated in the report that almost all the accused belong to the Lashkar-e-Taiba and that the attacks in November 2008 were masterminded by Lakhvi, Dawn News reported today.

It further said: "The accused – in active connivance of one another – planned, trained, aided, abetted and made preparations to carry out deadly terror attacks in Mumbai on November 26 to 28, 2008, through their co-accused, causing the murder of 166 innocent persons and injury to 304 persons, besides destruction of property in crores of rupees."

So talks will be on eventually.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 28 Jan 2010 01:53

ramana wrote: So talks will be on eventually.

Absolutely. TSP has once again gotten away with murder. The talks will be on Kashmir; which means achieving its goal of getting India to the table to talk about the same, while TSP preserves the LeT option, let alone pay any price. Now demands will be placed on India; like troop withdrawl, joint soverignty etc and other BS that MMS can easily sell to gullible Indian public and ex RAW officials will chime in. Its a victory for TSP's use of terror, plain & simple.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Jan 2010 01:57

krithivas wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I was reading a book titled "The 48 laws of Power", and one of the chapters had a quote from Chanakya.

Crush your Enemy Totally

R. Krithivas

It is out of context quote.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2010 02:05

About Zardari and the black goats being sacrificed daily isnt it haraam? What to say kafir prayers being chanted while the sacrifice going on?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Jan 2010 02:39

talks mean unkil ka haath, i.e. to keep TSP playing ball in the west
post unkil ka bidayi, talks can go to jahannum

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Jan 2010 02:48

vera_k wrote:It was not said in response to any particular event, but was his opinion of the truth. The passage below is from The Essential Writings . But right before this passage, he goes on to say that his concept of non-violence only applies to quarrels between races/religions and for the purpose of achieving swaraj.

Well MKG was wrong in almost all counts. Let us check what he says in the context of prevailing wisdom. Do people realize that MKG's passage on Sahranpur could be easily extended to the discussions that go on about Pakistan even at present? MKG unknowingly provides the framework to understand why Pakistan can continue to sponsor atrocities on India even in 2008 or will continue to do so on and on into the future!

"There is no doubt in my mind that in the majority of quarrels the Hindus come out second best."

So here he shows that he belongs to the class of "Hindus" who are constantly nursing their "defeat" at the hands of the Muslim. He cannot be set as an example, more so - on this forum - where such a trait has been decried by some as most reprehensible.

"My own experience but confirms the opinion that the Mussalman as a rule is a bully, and the Hindu as a rule is a coward. I have noticed this in railway trains, on public roads, and in the quarrels which I had the privilege of settling."

Here he is stereotyping and "generalizing" from some "negative" personal experiences - another grave crime against the "Muslim" by current standards, in fact in some eyes - probably good enough to disqualify him as a Hindu and an Indian. How can he talk of "Muslims" generally - surely Muslims were not a homogeneous community, and surely "a crime" cannot be given a religious colour as that would demonize the entire religion!

Need the Hindu blame the Mussalman for his cowardice? Where there are cowards, there will always be bullies.

This is of course perfectly compatible with current standads - the fault for any atrocity really does not lie with the "Muslim" but lies in the behaviour of the "Hindu".

The say that in Saharanpur the Mussalmans looted houses, broke open safes and, in one case, a Hindu woman's modesty was outraged. Whose fault was this? Mussalmans can offer no defence for the execrable conduct, it is true. But I as a Hindu am more ashamed of Hindu cowardice than I am angry at the Mussalman bullying.

First of all, here he is indulging in rampant "sensationalization", one-sided negative painting of the "Muslim" as indulging in violence as a community, believed and gave credence to any and every claim made on behalf of the "Hindu" towards trauma at the hands of the Muslim. This is a grave crime by current standards - even merely by raising the issue he joins the ranks of breakers of Pax-Indica.

As far as we know, most common domicile of MKG was either in Gujarat at his ashram or as the "detainee/prisoner" of the British. So he was indulging in "pontificating" about a locality where he was not a "resident"! Maybe, the "local Hindus" knew best about the local conditions and MKG was completely detached from "local reality". What if his urgings resulted in more bloodshed, division of communities, and breaking of peace in general?

Why did not the owners of the houses looted die in the attempt to defend their possessions? Where were the relatives of the outraged sister at the time of the outrage? Have they no account to render of themselves? My non-violence does no admit of running away from danger and leaving dear ones unprotected. Between vilence and cowardly flight, I can only prefer violence to cowardice. [....] Those Hindus who ran away from the post of duty when it was attended with danger did do so not because they were non-violent, or because they were afraid to strike, but because they were unwilling to die or even suffer any injury.

Well if they had really stood their ground and resisted then also they would have committed a grave crime by current "truly" Indian standards. For by attacking or looting or assaulting a woman, the Muslims had taken the initiative. Which means their attack would be in the "past" - before the Hindus defended themselves. In order to try and prevent the looting and molestation - they would have to use some degree of violence for the resistance to be at all effective! But then they would be reacting to the memory of trauma already in the "past" (the Muslims had attacked "before"). In that case they would not be moving "on" leaving behind the "past" memory of "hurt/trauma/defeat". By counter-application of force to defend themselves they would be bringing in more "assumed" reaction from "Muslims" and thereby destroy peace, and divide coomunities! By acting on the memory of the attack - they would be residing in the "past" - another grave crime.

Those Hindus who ran away to save their lives would have been truly non-violent and would have covered themselves with glory and added lustre to their faith and won the friendship of their Mussalman assailants, if they had stood bare breast with smiles on their lips, and died at their post. They would have done less well, although still well, if they had stood at their post and returned blow for blow. If the Hindus wish to convert the Mussalman bully into a respecting friend, they have to learn to die in the face of the heaviest odds.

Well, if they died at their post, they would not be able to survive and work towards economic development and prosperity. By escaping, and not escalating "the conflict" further - they have chosen the economic development and prosperity route - why does MKG see this as "cowardice"!!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Jan 2010 02:53

^^^

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2010 02:54

I think I already said no discussing Gandhiji in TSP thread.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Jan 2010 02:54

Chargers pick Razzaq, signal IPL-Pak thaw

"One of our (international) players is injured and needs a surgery. Therefore, we needed a replacement and Razzaq fits the bill well because of his all-round abilities. There was never an issue about Pakistan players being deliberately not picked as has been talked about all along."

There you go, a bone is being thrown to the Pakis. While I am irritated about this cave in, this may lead to one good outcome. This could silence the wailing from the WKKs, the politicians and administrators and hopefully stop the nauseating lovefest in cricinfo from Indians to Pakis... sigh!

yvijay · Post by **yvijay** » 28 Jan 2010 03:01

^^ Hmmmm, but didn't Sharukh other day say that, he wanted to pick Razzaq but didn't because he had some injury.