Bharat Rakshak

mody wrote: 2). Turkey sends its own pilots and operators along with the hardware to take part in the conflict. Generally this has not happened in the Indo-Pak context, but Paki pilots have taken part in Arab-Israeli conflicts in the past, though using the host countries hardware. The pakis did deny official involvement and had allowed their pilots to volunteer of their own free will, to participate in the conflict without official paki government involvement.
The Turks could take either of the two routes and the wannabe Khalif might even take credit and send Turkish personal, wearing the Turkish flag, to help the pakis.

I see very little chance of the latter happening. Erdogan doesn't fully trust his armed forces. Several of the TAF's best pilots (and most experienced pilot-trainers) were involved in the Gulenist coup attempt of 2016, and were ultimately locked up to serve long sentences in jail. So well-trained pilots who can be trusted politically are a relatively scarce commodity in Turkey.

Even if Erdogan feels rich enough to send some of his F-16s into what is bound to be a meat-grinder (IAF is not like the Syrian or Armenian Air Force)-- which is itself doubtful given the state of Turkey's economy-- I seriously doubt he would put his trained flyers at risk.

Pakistan has always had an excess of, well, Pakis-- and a shortage of everything that's actually valuable. That's why Pakistan has contributed aid to birather countries in the form of Paki terrorists (whether in or out of uniform)-- it has nothing else to offer.

https://www.wionews.com/india-news/with ... dia-388029
With Rumi's message and political intent of good ties, Turkey sends anti-Covid assistance to India
Written By: Sidhant Sibal, May 28, 2021
Turkey has sent two planeloads of assistance to India to deal with the COVID-19 crisis, with each box having a message of Rumi written on - "there is hope after despair; there are many suns after darkness”.
The assistance, which arrived in Delhi on two Turkish A400 Military cargo planes, the biggest in the country, brought with it 50 MT of medical supplies. It included five oxygen generators, 680 oxygen cylinders, 50 ventilators, and 50,000 doses of anti-viral medicine.
.....
Gautam

The Turkish-built KARGU-2, a deadly attack drone designed for asymmetric warfare and anti-terrorist operations, targeted one of Haftar's soldiers while he tried to retreat, according to the paper.


https://www.businessinsider.co.za/kille ... -un-2021-5

Rudradev wrote:

mody wrote: 2). Turkey sends its own pilots and operators along with the hardware to take part in the conflict. Generally this has not happened in the Indo-Pak context, but Paki pilots have taken part in Arab-Israeli conflicts in the past, though using the host countries hardware. The pakis did deny official involvement and had allowed their pilots to volunteer of their own free will, to participate in the conflict without official paki government involvement.
The Turks could take either of the two routes and the wannabe Khalif might even take credit and send Turkish personal, wearing the Turkish flag, to help the pakis.

I see very little chance of the latter happening. Erdogan doesn't fully trust his armed forces. Several of the TAF's best pilots (and most experienced pilot-trainers) were involved in the Gulenist coup attempt of 2016, and were ultimately locked up to serve long sentences in jail. So well-trained pilots who can be trusted politically are a relatively scarce commodity in Turkey.

Even if Erdogan feels rich enough to send some of his F-16s into what is bound to be a meat-grinder (IAF is not like the Syrian or Armenian Air Force)-- which is itself doubtful given the state of Turkey's economy-- I seriously doubt he would put his trained flyers at risk.

Pakistan has always had an excess of, well, Pakis-- and a shortage of everything that's actually valuable. That's why Pakistan has contributed aid to birather countries in the form of Paki terrorists (whether in or out of uniform)-- it has nothing else to offer.

The Turks don't have F-16 pilots to spare and are themselves using paki pilots as well.
But supply of hardware and maybe operators for the Turkish drones is definitely a possibility. Pakis are not proficient in using Turkish drones and Turkey might offer its drones along with operators for the conflict duration.
This would still mean Turkish personnel being involved in targeting and trying to kill Indian military personnel.

My question was in case of any such eventuality, what would be the options with India. There is always Kadi Ninda to start with, but would we be able to take any concrete action against the Turks? Short of threatening to lob an Agni-IV over their heads, what action could India take.

mody wrote: My question was in case of any such eventuality, what would be the options with India. There is always Kadi Ninda to start with, but would we be able to take any concrete action against the Turks? Short of threatening to lob an Agni-IV over their heads, what action could India take.

Perhaps we could start by stopping existing shoot-yourself-in-the-foot actions by this govt/babucracy, including:
-Allowing Turkey to be the main transit hub for Indigo
-Giving them the order for builting ships for the Indian Navy
-Allowing them a free run of radicalizing Kashmiris and Indian Muslims via scholarships etc (there seems to be a partnership between ISI and Turkey whereby they are using Turkey as a proxy since direct relations with Pakis and POK via scholarships and free visits etc has been curbed, and most of the rabid anti-India person and social media handles are based in Turkey now).
-Banning/curbing their pro-Paki and anti-India media
-Banning travel to or via Turkey citing proximity to ISIS and being one of the gateway countries for radicals to join/visit ISIS
-Threaten to recognize (and promote via activism, media awareness etc) the Turkish genocide of Armenians, Greeks and other ethnic groups.
-Go beyond token lip-service for Greek-Indian solidarity and actively engage with them, have military exercises etc.

When we are too chicken to do this basic stuff, why have wet dreams about military action?

You are forgetting the main card that can be played against the Turks - Kurds. 10% of the Turkish GDP is contributed by Tourism. Guess what will happen to the Turkish economy (which is already under stress) if Kurds start some 'peace' activities?

Most of these "tourists" are Tulks from Germany, just as most of the tourists to bakistan are bakis from UK.

rsingh wrote:Most of these "tourists" are Tulks from Germany, just as most of the tourists to bakistan are bakis from UK.

Kurds playing mischief would scare away Turds from these Oiropean 'peace stations' also, no?

Vips wrote:You are forgetting the main card that can be played against the Turks - Kurds. 10% of the Turkish GDP is contributed by Tourism. Guess what will happen to the Turkish economy (which is already under stress) if Kurds start some 'peace' activities?

just derecognize all turki and paki degrees. that should put paid to "scholarships" and exchange programs

tax indigo for operating from turki.

withdraw all Indian flights to and via turki and ban exports and imports by taxing both very heavily

why do we need to get into a fight with them and finally do not get involved in jehadi affairs by funding kurds. we have nothing to gain from them

We have a long to go before we take such steps

0:09 / 1:17
@TheWolfpackIN
Indian Army has sent RFI to Turkey's Otokar for Altay tank, in addition to sending RFI to several other countries (US, Russia, Italy, ROK, UK, Serbia, Ukraine, Israel) and India's DRDO for the FRCV project.

Paul wrote:We have a long to go before we take such steps

0:09 / 1:17
@TheWolfpackIN
Indian Army has sent RFI to Turkey's Otokar for Altay tank, in addition to sending RFI to several other countries (US, Russia, Italy, ROK, UK, Serbia, Ukraine, Israel) and India's DRDO for the FRCV project.

WOW, just WOW! First they get ships, now looking at tanks. When these people spit in your face! Unbelievable.

Only spit on the face? Sirji, In Gand(h)i's land, strategic miscalculations do not start to being counted till you are repeatedly kicked on the face. By that measure we still have a lot of self goals to go.

How many people are aware that some Turkish companies are involved in building a lot of tunnels (not main contractors) in Kashmir and the North-East?

chetak wrote: just derecognize all turki and paki degrees. that should put paid to "scholarships" and exchange programs

So you think all of those who are getting those scholarships are doing that so they could land jobs in India?
Not all. They can and will prefer either staying in Turkey or in the middle east.

chetak wrote:tax indigo for operating from turki.

Istanbul is a huge aviation hub. Will not make any difference if some flights from Indigo do not land or take off from there.

chetak wrote: withdraw all Indian flights to and via turki and ban exports and imports by taxing both very heavily.

You cannot do the export import ban with Turkey under WTO rules unless you are in a state of war.

chetak wrote:why do we need to get into a fight with them and finally do not get involved in jehadi affairs by funding kurds. we have nothing to gain from them

We will need to fight with them if they get involved in Kashmir affairs. They are already in POK. We will need to use all possible cards and Kurds will be by far the most potent (and effective one) we will have.

Cain Marko wrote:

Paul wrote:We have a long to go before we take such steps

WOW, just WOW! First they get ships, now looking at tanks. When these people spit in your face! Unbelievable.

IIRC it was Nitin Gokhale (could be someone else) that had mentioned that when MMS sanction a mountain strike corps for the northern border, the effort to raise it had come to a grinding halt: because of MEA. It has been oft stated that MEA feels threatened by the MoD - if MoD succeeds, then MEA has no role to play.

This RFI could be an idea from the MEA

https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1 ... 4386390018

Just in: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin jumped on the phone today with Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar to talk ahead of their meeting next week at NATO summit in Brussels.

Brief statement makes NO mention of Turkey buying the Russian S-400 system that looms over the meet.
5:50 PM · Jun 10, 2021·Twitter Web App

https://theworldnews.net/il-news/biden- ... -autocrats
Biden-Erdogan summit: First test of how the new president handles autocrats
6/11/2021
U.S. President Joe Biden has made it quite clear that Recep Tayyip Erdogan isn’t exactly his favorite world leader.
His first telephone call with the Turkish president occurred three months after Biden took office and mainly addressed the American’s plan to declare the slaughter of Armenians a century ago genocide, which Biden indeed declared a few days later. Erdogan gritted his teeth, condemned the declaration as expected and warned that it would “impose an additional burden on relations between the two countries.
Those who have heard the Turkish leader’s over-the-top reactions to other countries that have recognized the Armenian genocide – severing relations and in some cases imposing sanctions – might have been left with the impression that this time Erdogan was turning the other cheek.
On Monday he’s due to have his first face-to-face meeting with the man who has called him a dictator and declared during the election campaign that he knew how to handle Erdogan. Taking place on the sidelines of a NATO conference in Brussels, the meeting will let the two leaders explore how they can repair bilateral ties.
Erdogan has already raised expectations, telling a newspaper that he believed a new era in bilateral relations was about to begin. The Turkish media has been reporting on proposals for resolving disputes between the two countries and notes that American criticism of Turkey’s domestic affairs has stopped.
The nationalist journalist Ibrahim Karagul, who has devoted numerous columns in the newspaper Yeni Safak to criticizing the United States, especially Biden, wrote this week that all Turks who believe in “Turkey first” had to unite and stand strong against international intrigues and false propaganda aimed at weakening the country. They had to “put up their dukes” because Turkey is coming back stronger than ever. The words “United States” and “Biden” were never mentioned.
Yeni Safak’s website too is controlled by Albayrak Holding, whose owners are very close to Erdogan. The content appearing in its media outlets reflects the radical steam of Erdogan’s Justice and Development Party, the AKP. Blaming the international community for persecuting Turkey and the sense of “supremacy” in Karagul's article this week echo the things Erdogan used to say in public.
They also express confidence in Turkey’s ability to resist pressure and the intrigues of those who fear the power of the Turkish state. It’s the same spirit that Erdogan has sought in battling the country’s deep economic crisis, which has seen the lira collapse, unemployment soar to 13.9 percent (double among the young) and inflation climb to 17 percent in May. It’s also the spirit that Erdogan plans to bring to his meeting with Biden.
Russian missiles
At the same time, Erdogan is showing restraint. Unlike Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who declared he would counter Iran “even if it leads to friction with the United States,” Erdogan will be trying to convince Biden that Turkey is a strategic asset, not a burden – that Washington must recognize Turkey’s special status as a bridge between East and West and that Erdogan has no intention of breaking with NATO or Washington to strengthen ties with Russia and Iran.
.....
Gautam

NRao wrote:

Cain Marko wrote: WOW, just WOW! First they get ships, now looking at tanks. When these people spit in your face! Unbelievable.

IIRC it was Nitin Gokhale (could be someone else) that had mentioned that when MMS sanction a mountain strike corps for the northern border, the effort to raise it had come to a grinding halt: because of MEA. It has been oft stated that MEA feels threatened by the MoD - if MoD succeeds, then MEA has no role to play.

This RFI could be an idea from the MEA

Turkey is a very easy gateway for some high level Kids to get into Europe on Visas and Citizenship.

kvraghav wrote:

NRao wrote:
IIRC it was Nitin Gokhale (could be someone else) that had mentioned that when MMS sanction a mountain strike corps for the northern border, the effort to raise it had come to a grinding halt: because of MEA. It has been oft stated that MEA feels threatened by the MoD - if MoD succeeds, then MEA has no role to play.

This RFI could be an idea from the MEA

Turkey is a very easy gateway for some high level Kids to get into Europe on Visas and Citizenship.

with a CDS in active mode, there is no way or even place for the MEA to enter the acquisitions arena.

This is the Modi govt and the IA is crucial for ladakh ops.

The MEA will not cross red lines because jaishankar has the brains not to enter into a turf war with anybody, much less the CDS

the light tanks that the IA is looking for do not have many takers or even manufacturers and where ever they finally come from, manufacture in India may be a condition.

No harm in asking the turks and maybe the israelis too for help in customizing the platform

He also raked up Uighur and Rohingya issues.

Indian foreign policy should officially dump the pacifist slogan "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam". It has harmed India's position where it is seen as a dove and not taken seriously.

Examples - China and Turkey. When dealing with these two nations, the best action would be to go for the jugular.

In the case of Turkey - bring up Cyprus, the Armenian genocide, treatment of Kurds and their demand for Kurdistan, its poor relations with Iran, and the dismal human rights records at every forum.

On China, where does one start? The list is exhausting.

Go for the jugular until these two nations cry "uncle".

Paul wrote:We have a long to go before we take such steps

0:09 / 1:17
@TheWolfpackIN
Indian Army has sent RFI to Turkey's Otokar for Altay tank, in addition to sending RFI to several other countries (US, Russia, Italy, ROK, UK, Serbia, Ukraine, Israel) and India's DRDO for the FRCV project.

Not really. The RFI allows India to get a good look at potential suppliers to TSP.

SinghS wrote:He also raked up Uighur and Rohingya issues.

Turdogan should call for a vote on a resolution against Uighur suppression by China. Bakis will desperately want to wriggle out of that one. Can't afford to get caught between one old father and one new one.

Manish_P wrote:Turdogan should call for a vote on a resolution against Uighur suppression by China.

Erdogan will not jeopardize his position. So, he won't. Whereas, India could and should sponsor a resolution. Then see Erdogan's response.

Indian parliament should also recognize the Armenian genocide with a vote. Then see Erdogan's response.

anupmisra wrote:Indian foreign policy should officially dump the pacifist slogan "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam". It has harmed India's position where it is seen as a dove and not taken seriously.

Examples - China and Turkey. When dealing with these two nations, the best action would be to go for the jugular.

In the case of Turkey - bring up Cyprus, the Armenian genocide, treatment of Kurds and their demand for Kurdistan, its poor relations with Iran, and the dismal human rights records at every forum.

On China, where does one start? The list is exhausting.

Go for the jugular until these two nations cry "uncle".

anupmisra ji,
In my view, I don't think India should get rid of the slogan "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam". It should be used while India advances its interests in parallel. That slogan will help India to distinguish itself from other Asian countries like China that are more predatory in their rise.

India's rise is good for the whole world as the world is one big family and we are part of that metaphorically speaking. That should be the narrative that should be drilled day in day out with India pursuing her goals in parallel.

We don't have to bring in any resolutions yet. We can just start by speaking in the forum and watch pakis, turks atleast be squemish to start off and then start turning up the heat.

We should keep saying vasudhaiva kudumbakam onlee as a front for chai biskoot and keep doing whatever we want.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/01/er ... ad-turkey/
Erdogan Might Be Too Sick to Keep Leading Turkey
Evidence is growing that Turkey’s president is ailing—and that could be bad news for the country’s politics.

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/in ... uin-194660

Is the India-Turkey Relationship Headed to Ruin?

Erdogan’s repeated calls for the “Kashmir dispute” to be settled within the UN—despite the stated international position that the matter is a bilateral issue and should be resolved between India and Pakistan—have led to a flurry of tit-for-tat responses between India and Turkey.

vijayk wrote:https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/01/er ... ad-turkey/
Erdogan Might Be Too Sick to Keep Leading Turkey
Evidence is growing that Turkey’s president is ailing—and that could be bad news for the country’s politics.

I'm the event that erdogan drops dead or quits the government, I would hope that we have a back end connect with the leaders of the opposition. One man's insane vision to develop the country as a Muslim empire likely does not define the long term business and people sentiment. In today's world money talks and in the long term, that's all that matters

Nihat wrote:

vijayk wrote:https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/01/er ... ad-turkey/
Erdogan Might Be Too Sick to Keep Leading Turkey
Evidence is growing that Turkey’s president is ailing—and that could be bad news for the country’s politics.

I'm the event that erdogan drops dead or quits the government, I would hope that we have a back end connect with the leaders of the opposition. One man's insane vision to develop the country as a Muslim empire likely does not define the long term business and people sentiment. In today's world money talks and in the long term, that's all that matters

Erdogan’s health deteriorating? Maybe this explains why Putin has been so chummy with Turkey despite their actions in Syria and Libya. Maybe the Russians found out very early on that Erdogan’s days were numbered and figured they would just bide their time, hoping the next Turkish government will be less adventurous and withdraw from Syria, Libya, etc.

Y. Kanan wrote:Maybe the Russians found out ... and figured they would just bide their time ...

Maybe the Russians can just ... ahem, cough, cough ... help him along as he shuffles off this mortal stage.

Turdogan has been trending very favorably in all opinion polls leading to their 2023 election. If he croaks or retires, probably there will be a sympathy wave that will le AKP continue in power. Who are likely/possible successors - another wannabe-mullah or someone more intelligent ?

vijayk wrote:https://nationalinterest.org/feature/in ... uin-194660

Is the India-Turkey Relationship Headed to Ruin?

Erdogan’s repeated calls for the “Kashmir dispute” to be settled within the UN

Sure, let’s first settle the Cyprus issue per UN resolutions.

Nihat wrote:

vijayk wrote:https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/01/er ... ad-turkey/
Erdogan Might Be Too Sick to Keep Leading Turkey
Evidence is growing that Turkey’s president is ailing—and that could be bad news for the country’s politics.

I'm the event that erdogan drops dead or quits the government, I would hope that we have a back end connect with the leaders of the opposition. One man's insane vision to develop the country as a Muslim empire likely does not define the long term business and people sentiment. In today's world money talks and in the long term, that's all that matters

Its not one man's insane vision. Turkish society has turned conservative. How else does one explain the victories of AKP despite them trampling on the constitution etc?!
Erdogan dead will lead to very little difference in the direction of Turkish policy.

Parasu wrote:

Nihat wrote:
I'm the event that erdogan drops dead or quits the government, I would hope that we have a back end connect with the leaders of the opposition. One man's insane vision to develop the country as a Muslim empire likely does not define the long term business and people sentiment. In today's world money talks and in the long term, that's all that matters

Its not one man's insane vision. Turkish society has turned conservative. How else does one explain the victories of AKP despite them trampling on the constitution etc?!
Erdogan dead will lead to very little difference in the direction of Turkish policy.

the AKP is like a slightly refined version of the afghan taliban.

They have killed enough in turkey to keep the rest of populace in line.

turdogan is only doing it to rattle Modi's cage and show the phata pyjama ummah abdool that he has the circumcised tools to take on Modi, which is very wishful thinking on turdogan's part.

he runs a piss ant country which is just one step behind the pakis on the economic disaster scale, pakis who incidentally also aspire to the leadership of the global ummah because they have the "bum" and the delusional pakis think that it is their birthright.

The West Shouldn’t Deny the Big Picture on Turkey’s Erdogan

It is time to check the power Turkey seeks to exert on the global stage, diplomatically, economically and, when its proxies operate outside Turkey’s recognized borders, militarily as well.

NRao wrote:The West Shouldn’t Deny the Big Picture on Turkey’s Erdogan

It is time to check the power Turkey seeks to exert on the global stage, diplomatically, economically and, when its proxies operate outside Turkey’s recognized borders, militarily as well.

Someone clearly did not read the article because it looks like after sitting on the sidelines for almost a decade, the Turkish offensive in Syria has moved from a passive stage to an active one.

Several thousand Turkish military and rebels, under the direct patronage of Ankara, began to move into the deployment areas of the Syrian troops. The stage is set for an Turkish offensive military operation in northern Syria (target Idlib).

The world, it feels like is going back to the 15th and 16th century when there were so many conflicts and so many powers. Nothing really makes sense anymore. A weakened Erdogan recently met with Putin , but now with Turkey attacking Syria (likely with the blessings of US, UK, Europe ), it will sooner or later come into confrontation with Russian military protecting Syria. Curious how Turkey funds its adventures with an economy in tatters. Interesting days ahead...

https://mobile.twitter.com/FrontalForce ... 9668529154 ----->

Breaking: Turkey to be greylisted by FATF this week. Turkey will be welcomed by Pak in the greylist. Congratulations Flag of Pakistan Flag of Turkey
P

NRao wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/FrontalForce ... 9668529154 ----->

Breaking: Turkey to be greylisted by FATF this week. Turkey will be welcomed by Pak in the greylist. Congratulations Flag of Pakistan Flag of Turkey
P

Anyone observing this was well aware that this business had migrated away from Dubai to Istanbul over the last ~5 years.