Indian Military Aviation

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Feb 2011 18:50

^^^Request for sanction for 45 Squadrons means that IAF will look for additional aircraft for additional squadrons.

The current batch of a/c being inducted will simply be to fill up for the phase wise withdrawl. There is not net increment in the numbers of a/c on Orbat of IAF.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Feb 2011 20:29

IAF to acquire 230 choppers.

Modernising its fleet of helicopters, the Indian Air Force on Thursday said it was looking to acquire more than 230 choppers in the near future.

Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told reporters at Aero India 2011, that the force is in the process of acquiring helicopters of different types and sizes in the next couple of years. "We are acquiring 12 AW 101 VVIP helicopters, trials for 22 attack choppers are completed, 80 MI-17 IV helicopters are being inducted and 50 odd would be added, trials for 12 heavy-lift choppers are also in the final stage and will be completed soon," he said.

Naik said the field evaluation trials (FETs) for procuring 197 helicopters for the Army and Navy were also over and the report was expected to be submitted in the next couple of weeks. Of the 197, IAF would receive over 55 helicopters. For the attack helicopters, Russian MI-28 and American Apache 64 D Longbow are facing each other. The IAF chief said the trials were over and a report was expected in the next two weeks.

Under the LUH programme, the Army has conducted trials of the Russian KA-226 and Eurocopter Fennec, and would send its report to the IAF soon. Commenting on reports suggesting that the US would offer high-end technology to India, the IAF chief said these reports should be taken "with a pinch of salt" as it was not known to whom such offers were made by the Americans. On the upgrades to be carried out on the Su-30MKI, Naik said the aircraft would have state-of-the-art equipment and HAL, DRDO and Russian manufacturers were involved in the development of the Aesa radar also for the air superiority fighter.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Feb 2011 21:30

Cain Marko wrote:Any news on the Mirage 2000 upgrade? Was the deal signed? I recall a lot of hullaballooo in Dec last when Sarko & Co were in town. What came of it?

CM.

IAF chief's googly on multi-role aircraft.

Other than the impending contract for 126 medium fighters to boost the IAF’s dwindling numbers, the IAF chief also announced the impending conclusion, “within this financial year”, of the contract to upgrade the air force’s 20-year-old fleet of 52 Mirage-2000 medium fighters. This upgrade, the subject of bitter negotiations between the IAF and French contractor Thales, will give the Mirage-2000 another 20 years of service life, by fitting on a new radar and a modern cockpit with state-of-the-art avionics and electronic warfare equipment.
While Thales had initially demanded $52 million per aircraft, the deal has been concluded, say IAF sources to Business Standard, at $39 million (Rs 177 crore) per aircraft.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 11 Feb 2011 23:51

Commenting on reports suggesting that the US would offer high-end technology to India, the IAF chief said these reports should be taken "with a pinch of salt" as it was not known to whom such offers were made by the Americans.

AoA

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Feb 2011 01:45

sarabpal.s wrote:quote="Sagar G"IAF seeks Government sanction for more fighter aircraft squadrons

Preparing itself for a two-front war scenario, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has sent a proposal to the Defence Ministry to increase its sanctioned fighter aircraft strength from 39.5 to 45 squadrons./quote

quote
The IAF is also phasing out its old Russian-origin fleet of MiG aircraft -- the 21, 23 and 27 series. The oldest MiG-21 Type-77 is likely to be decommissioned by the end of next year./quote
Two para opposite to each other.

How can we have 45 squadrons if we have to offload some some old planes with new one.

Here is my calculations: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1028681#p1028681

Summary:
* Retiring by 2022 -> 18.5 squadrons
* Current Sqdns Remaining in 2022 -> 18 squadrons
* New Inductions by 2022 -> 25 squadrons

Total (remaining + induction): 18 + 25 = 43 squadrons in 2022

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Feb 2011 02:09

Srai, out of the 43 squadrons that you project in 2022, 6 squadrons (3 Mig-29 and 3 M2k) will be comprised of aircraft near the fag end of their airframe lives. The earliest M2ks would be >35 years old by then. The IAF would have to retire them by 2025 at the most. This will bring the strength back down to 37 in a short time.

Another fact to note is that the IAF operates 68 Mi-29s. So those 3 Mig-29 squadrons are considerably overstrength. The IAF is actually just 4 short of a fourthMig-29 squadron. So retiring the Mig-29s means losing nearly 4 squadrons in sheer numbers.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 12 Feb 2011 02:45

IAF hopes to sign Mirage upgrade deal by March

“The negotiations have been concluded and report has been submitted to the Defence Ministry. We are trying to conclude this deal by end of this fiscal,” Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told a press conference here.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 12 Feb 2011 02:52

Cross post

Indian MMRCA deal hot topic at record breaking AeroIndia
Sify News..

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Feb 2011 03:23

nachiket wrote:Srai, out of the 43 squadrons that you project in 2022, 6 squadrons (3 Mig-29 and 3 M2k) will be comprised of aircraft near the fag end of their airframe lives. The earliest M2ks would be >35 years old by then. The IAF would have to retire them by 2025 at the most. This will bring the strength back down to 37 in a short time.

Another fact to note is that the IAF operates 68 Mi-29s. So those 3 Mig-29 squadrons are considerably overstrength. The IAF is actually just 4 short of a fourthMig-29 squadron. So retiring the Mig-29s means losing nearly 4 squadrons in sheer numbers.

The production lines for the LCA, MRCA, and FGFA will be available during that period (2022+). AMCA production line will be available (post 2025/27+). So the IAF has plenty of choices as far as addressing the retirement of 12 squadrons of MiG-29, Mirage-2000 and Jaguars post 2022 goes. On the quantities of MiG-29s, it was necessary to have that many because of their low serviceability rate (< 60%). Modern aircrafts have a much higher service readiness (80%+).

Here is my posting in full from the LCA thread:

srai wrote: ...

Using the BR's Aircraft Fleet Strength as baseline ...

Retiring squadrons by 2022:

5 x MiG-21 M/MF

2 x MiG-21Bis

6 x MiG-21 Bison

3.5 x MiG-27 ML

2 x MiG-27 UPG
Total (retiring 2022): 18.5 squadrons

Current Squadrons (2010) still in place by 2022:

3 x MiG-29UPG

3 x Mirage 2000UPG

6 x Sukhoi-30 MKI

5 x Jaguar IS

1 x Jaguar IM
Total (remaining 2022): 18 squadrons
Note: All listed here, except MKI, will be retiring between 2022 and 2030.

Planned Squadrons in place by 2022:

2 x LCA Mk.1

5 x LCA Mk.2

9 x Sukhoi-30 MKI

7 x MRCA

2 x PAK-FA/FGFA
Total (induction 2022): 25 squadrons

This means in 2022:
Total (remaining + induction): 18 + 25 = 43 squadrons in 2022

From 2022 to 2030, there will be 12 squadrons (3 x MiG-29UPG, 3 x Mirage 2000UPG, 5 x Jaguar IS, 1 x Jaguar IM) being retired (as shown above). The production lines for the LCA, MRCA, and FGFA will be available during that period. AMCA will come online in the later half of this (closer to 2030).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Feb 2011 03:35

SRai:"On the quantities of MiG-29s, it was necessary to have that many because of their low serviceability rate (< 60%). Modern aircrafts have a much higher service readiness (80%+)."

Probably when they were inducted. However, once the repairs, local overhauls, spares supply were established, serviceability reached "modern" levels quite a while back.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 12 Feb 2011 06:13

Vipul wrote:IAF to acquire 230 choppers.

Modernising its fleet of helicopters, the Indian Air Force on Thursday said it was looking to acquire more than 230 choppers in the near future.

Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told reporters at Aero India 2011, that the force is in the process of acquiring helicopters of different types and sizes in the next couple of years. "We are acquiring 12 AW 101 VVIP helicopters, trials for 22 attack choppers are completed, 80 MI-17 IV helicopters are being inducted and 50 odd would be added, trials for 12 heavy-lift choppers are also in the final stage and will be completed soon," he said.

it would be better to produce mi17 at home instead of buying directly,130 is a huge number just like mrca moreover we already have lots of mi17

it would also be better to license produce d30 burlak in india for il76 upgrade,100 such engine will be required for upgrade.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 12 Feb 2011 06:27

Kartik wrote:
Would'nt put any weight on what Chorgupta said. He also claimed with certainty that the IN's second batch of MiG-29Ks would feature AESA radars.

its very likely that second batch may have aesa,there is no reason that these aircraft should not have aesa.

zhuk ae is ready to go into production.

nash · Post by **nash** » 12 Feb 2011 07:43

Total (remaining + induction): 18 + 25 = 43 squadrons in 2022

I think we can very easily add 2-3 sqd. of PAK-FA to this list which will take the number to 45.

And much sufficient in war at two front - defending at one and offensive at other.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Feb 2011 07:56

nash wrote:
Total (remaining + induction): 18 + 25 = 43 squadrons in 2022
I think we can very easily add 2-3 sqd. of PAK-FA to this list which will take the number to 45.

And much sufficient in war at two front - defending at one and offensive at other.

Nope.

Why would you go in for a collaborative effort and then circle back and load up on what would be considered an inferior plane (as compared to the FGFA) at that point in time?

Have Russia build some portions of some FGFA? Perhaps.

nash · Post by **nash** » 12 Feb 2011 08:27

NRao wrote:
I think we can very easily add 2-3 sqd. of PAK-FA to this list which will take the number to 45.

And much sufficient in war at two front - defending at one and offensive at other.

Nope.

Why would you go in for a collaborative effort and then circle back and load up on what would be considered an inferior plane (as compared to the FGFA) at that point in time?

Have Russia build some portions of some FGFA? Perhaps.

i am looking only the availability of the fighter whether it is a collaborative or not, and it may be inferior to FGFA but would be much capable than other aircraft in the IAF inventory.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Feb 2011 08:42

i am looking only the availability of the fighter whether it is a collaborative or not, and it may be inferior to FGFA but would be much capable than other aircraft in the IAF inventory.

Which is why it is far better to have the Russians build what they can for the FGFA (they cannot supply everything) and get other nations (if it applies) to pitch in.

The PAK-FA could suffice for the RuAF, not the IAF. Else the IAF would have bought it too.

India has changed long back. This is not a knock against the PAK-FA as much as it is a pat-on-the-back for the FGFA.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 12 Feb 2011 09:09

Since France offered 40 Rafael as a batch IAF should rather swap the existing 50+ Mirages for Rafael making approx 5 sq of 18 Rafaels each which will be new and will have life for 40 years and IAF can spend the money for new fighter rather than upgrading 20+ year old fighter, which cann't be expected to have life more than another 15 years.

nash · Post by **nash** » 12 Feb 2011 09:12

NRao wrote: Which is why it is far better to have the Russians build what they can for the FGFA (they cannot supply everything) and get other nations (if it applies) to pitch in.

The PAK-FA could suffice for the RuAF, not the IAF. Else the IAF would have bought it too.

India has changed long back. This is not a knock against the PAK-FA as much as it is a pat-on-the-back for the FGFA.

I think in the deal of 250 aircraft, 200 will be FGFA and 50 will be PAK-Fa, so in anyway IAF would get 50 PAK-FA which might be get into production around 2015-2017.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... er/381718/

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... er/381786/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Feb 2011 10:30

Mig-29UPG upgrade Detials

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 12 Feb 2011 12:57

Rolls-Royce out of Jaguar re-engining?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Feb 2011 19:00

ADRDE, Agra products at Aero India 2011

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Feb 2011 19:06

honeywell engine is the more powerful iirc. lack of power has always been one jag problem.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Feb 2011 19:09

chacko, why is it in your misc website and not FI mainsite ?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Feb 2011 22:39

chackojoseph wrote:ADRDE, Agra products at Aero India 2011

One of the most interesting chats I had at AI11 was with a gentleman from ADRDE. Who knew air dropping of material could be so much fun and have such complexity involved.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Feb 2011 22:54

Rahul M wrote:chacko, why is it in your misc website and not FI mainsite ?

Rahul M,

I had no time to make it as a story. Its a ADRDE release. So, it was best to put it up in the misc.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Feb 2011 02:46

IAI's Refueling System for Indian Air Force (IAF) Tankers

In the recent tender the Indian Air Force is seeking proposals for the delivery of five new aerial tankers at an estimated cost of $2 billion. After Boeing dropped out of the race, only Airbus A330 and the Russian IL-78MKI remained. Both are addressing the IAF requirement for the delivery of new platforms. But the Boeing 767 could return to the scene from an unexpected direction – Bedek group is promoting its conversion of used Boeing 767/300 Multi-Mission Tanker-Transport (MMTT) which could be available with an entire Air-to-Air Refueling (AAR) kit, at half the price of new platforms.

The systems are similar to those already flying with India’s current IL-78MKI tankers. The Boeing 767 platform offers significant cost savings in operation as well as the benefit of flying simultaneously with fuel and cargo, the same aircraft could be easily configuration into flying hospitals for humanitarian assistance missions or perform as VIP transport, by introducing mission specific kits. Bedek has already delivered the first MMTT to Columbia.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 13 Feb 2011 08:32

RD 93 engine life is 1400 hours with overhauling after 700 flying hours.
http://www.uk-odk.ru/eng/products/milit ... tion/rd93/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Feb 2011 17:21

Army Aviation demo at Aero India 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o8P_2Qu7pE

kit · Post by **kit** » 13 Feb 2011 17:58

NRao wrote:IAI's Refueling System for Indian Air Force (IAF) Tankers

In the recent tender the Indian Air Force is seeking proposals for the delivery of five new aerial tankers at an estimated cost of $2 billion. After Boeing dropped out of the race, only Airbus A330 and the Russian IL-78MKI remained. Both are addressing the IAF requirement for the delivery of new platforms. But the Boeing 767 could return to the scene from an unexpected direction – Bedek group is promoting its conversion of used Boeing 767/300 Multi-Mission Tanker-Transport (MMTT) which could be available with an entire Air-to-Air Refueling (AAR) kit, at half the price of new platforms.

The systems are similar to those already flying with India’s current IL-78MKI tankers. The Boeing 767 platform offers significant cost savings in operation as well as the benefit of flying simultaneously with fuel and cargo, the same aircraft could be easily configuration into flying hospitals for humanitarian assistance missions or perform as VIP transport, by introducing mission specific kits. Bedek has already delivered the first MMTT to Columbia.

Raoji. , you beat me to that ! ..anyway this looks like the ideal one ..having commonality with existing tankers.and much cheaper compared to the European alternative.The finance ministry would be happy to oblige on this one.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Feb 2011 07:58

IAF to test 'smart pill' for long operations

New Delhi: Eyeing long haul operations in future, the Indian Air Force is exploring the use of a 'smart' pill for keeping its pilots awake and vigilant for over 37 hours.

Fatigue has been a problem among pilots involved in long duration flights which sometimes makes them commit errors that can be hazardous, more so during combat operations.

"Sleep deprivation and resultant fatigue have been attributed as the biggest danger to the success of any mission. That is why we opted to go for a drug named Modafinil which is popular as 'Go Pill'," Major General Mandeep Singh, ADG, Medical Research, Armed Forces Medical Services said.

The pill has already been tried by US pilots and it has proven to enhance their performance in long duration operations lasting for over 37 hours, he said.

The drug works on the central-nervous-system and promotes hyper-focus and alertness, he said, adding, "It has found to be efficacious in sustaining performance during periods of sleep deprivation.
Moreover, it has no side effects and it possesses potential military applications in sustained air operations." Elaborating on the need for such an intervention, Air Marshal Dipankar Ganguly, Director General Medical Services, AIR said, "What applies during peace time is not possible when there is an emergency.

"During routine operations, a pilot is well rested before he takes off. This luxury is not there during war time. They are required to fly without adequate rest, depending on the nature of operation."

Major General Singh said that the drug trial will be carried out on pilots of both transport and fighter aircraft. "If proven effective we will have the switch in our hands. The problem of irregular working hours having a cumulative effect on the ability of a pilot during important missions can be overcome," he said.

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 14 Feb 2011 13:22

IAF’s Jaguars needs new lungs

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 14 Feb 2011 14:09

Embraer May Develop Trainer Aircraft With India

“So, we will also have a room for replacement and so there is a scope to co-develop and co-produce a basic trainer,” Mr. Neto said. “Both countries can probably spend the money equally and produce about 100-150 planes each.”

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Feb 2011 14:19

excellent idea..brazil already has some prior a/c with the tucano family and good manufacturing and sourcing linkages.

finally some fruits of the south-south co-op thing mananiya late PMs used to mouth at NAM and CHOGM meets in delhi with live telecast from DD

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 16 Feb 2011 02:54

IAF plans to refit Jaguars with new engines in trouble

The Indian Air Force's (IAF) plans to fit its Anglo-French Jaguar fighter planes with new engines seem to be in trouble with one of the global firms in the race indicating it may back out.

The IAF last year issued the tenders to two firms - Britain's Rolls Royce and US Honeywell - for 200 engines estimated to cost around Rs.3,000 crore (Rs.30 billion/$670 million) for the new engines (re-engining in aviation parlance) of the deep penetration strike aircraft fleet.

"We have issued the Request for Proposal (RFP) to two vendors. We are awaiting the technical and commercial response from the two vendors," a top IAF officer said here Tuesday.

The two firms have been given time till February end to respond to the tenders, he said.
But Rolls Royce indicated it may not respond to the tender, thereby leading to a single vendor situation which goes against the Indian defence procurement procedures.
...
...
The official said, "From the outset the Rolls-Royce proposal has been an optimised cost effective, low risk Adour 'engine upgrade' programme which would minimise aircraft integration and would utilise the existing Adour infrastructure in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. However, the RFP calls for a new engine, not an upgraded engine."

Asked if the firm was not responding to the tender, the official said, "At this moment, we would not like to make an official statement."
...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Feb 2011 03:40

putnanja wrote:IAF plans to refit Jaguars with new engines in trouble

But XYZ indicated it may not respond to the tender, thereby leading to a single vendor situation which goes against the Indian defence procurement procedures.
...

How many times will we see this. There are so many cases where there are only 2 competitive companies for a particular commodity. When one sees that they can't win, they retract ... the saga continues. NOBODY suffers as much as we do by this silly procedure. I think there should be a rethink on it.

Army high brass and the IAF have already voiced their concerns about this. I hope they introduce some clause where "exceptions" can be made on valid reasons.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Feb 2011 06:28

putnanja wrote:IAF plans to refit Jaguars with new engines in trouble

There is something suspicious about this news item. Will explain my doubts below.

The official said, "From the outset the Rolls-Royce proposal has been an optimised cost effective, low risk Adour 'engine upgrade' programme which would minimise aircraft integration and would utilise the existing Adour infrastructure in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. However, the RFP calls for a new engine, not an upgraded engine."

Asked if the firm was not responding to the tender, the official said, "At this moment, we would not like to make an official statement."

The "unnamed official" may be lifafa and may be willing to take money or already taking money from Rolls Royce because even before the downselect he describes the Rolls Royce engine as

low risk Adour 'engine upgrade' programme which would minimise aircraft integration and would utilise the existing Adour infrastructure in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

However the news item says the RFP is for a "new engine" and if the RR engine is not a new one, then it is out anyway. It cannot compete with Honeywell's offer. It is difficult to tell whether Rolls Royce is sabotaging the deal by quoting legalese - fearing that they will get eliminated. In the end RR or Honeywell have everything to gain whether the selection happens in 2 years or in 12 years. It's only a matter of when th money starts pouring in. For India it is a matter of keeping the Air Force flying fit. All military equipment suppliers know this, and while we (and they) blame Indian bureaucracy - the fact is that the Indian laws are being constructed around trying to avoid kickbacks. But this allows insiders to sabotage deals using legal hurdles - because the "kickbacks route" always bypasses legal issues. All military equipment companies have Indians in their payroll pushing their products and legal advisers on how to sabotage deals that may go wrong for them, causing delays, and equipment crisis and a quick, dirty and expensive purchase.

the idea we have that the dirt and sloth are only among Indians may be a simplistic picture. The arms suppliers are complicit in fighting a dirty battle as can be seen in this case. For example - here - with only two vendors - one says "I am puling out" - throwing the procurement process into disarray because of the single vendor clause. The only question is the tiiming of the pullout - designed to cause maximum loss to India. It's a dirty business.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 16 Feb 2011 13:05

Future of Asian Air Power-2030

About author: Air Cmde Ramesh Phadke is a retired Air Commodore and is associated with the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, New Delhi.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2011 00:12

What I don't understand is the Honeywell engine used on any Jaguar re-engine program at all? If not why ask them to compete for Jaguar upgrade? Its not like lets get x engine and y fram and get a z fighter plane.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 17 Feb 2011 01:21

^^^ What is the problem if x,y,z fit together to give the best. e.g. Su-30MKI, A-50s

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2011 01:27

A different engine could effect the flight characteristics unless its certified by the original supplier. In other words to save a few bucks from another engine vendor it could be Kalidasa act for the aircraft.