AMCA News and Discussions

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souravB
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 05 Sep 2018 22:31

I read somewhere F/A-18 can touch mach 1 with just the wingtip AIM-9s, but US won't say it can supercruise if it isn't mach 1.5 or above.
But I wouldn't read much into it as per the power of F414. F/A-18 is heavier than AMCA and also wasn't designed to get to high speed.

Indranil
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 05 Sep 2018 22:40

This is not a function of engine alone. I ask you a question. When you have answered it, you would know the answer. Does, inlet of (say) a F18 flying at supersonic speeds know whether the engine at its aft is using AB or not?

Fact: Gripen NG demonstrator supercruises.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 05 Sep 2018 22:43

Gagan wrote:Does the FA-18 E/F/G supercruise?


does Su-30MKI supercruise?

If i am right it is not only the engine but the TWR of the aircraft thats important for supercruise also aerodynamics and many other factors

And how reliable are the AL-31 engines? there have been many reports of Su-30MKIs having engine problems

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nvishal » 05 Sep 2018 23:54

Kakarat wrote:And how reliable are the AL-31 engines? there have been many reports of Su-30MKIs having engine problems

Su-30 is operated by close to a dozen countries. How many foreign Su-30's have crashed? Google it.

Compare it with india

For reference, total seven indian su30s have crashed so far

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 06 Sep 2018 00:04

Gagan wrote:Does the FA-18 E/F/G supercruise?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... pe-321428/

Like I-nil said, it is with both the airframe and the engine design put together.

FYI

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 06 Sep 2018 02:44

nvishal wrote:
Kakarat wrote:And how reliable are the AL-31 engines? there have been many reports of Su-30MKIs having engine problems

Su-30 is operated by close to a dozen countries. How many foreign Su-30's have crashed? Google it.

Compare it with india

For reference, total seven indian su30s have crashed so far


A twin engined aircraft with one engine issue doesn't always crashes

From a old report
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/su ... VecIK.html
Defence minister Manohar Parrikar Tuesday said the Russian-origin fighters recorded as many as 35 engine failures/engine-related problems between January 2013 and December 2014.


I am not saying that AL-31 is a shit engine, I am just saying that it is not for a 5th Gen aircraft

In some ways being a old design it might not be fuel efficient one

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 06 Sep 2018 04:58

chola wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I made that mistake on BRF that you can tack on any aero engine onto an aircraft and it will fly. I have been advised that is not the case. Engine dimensions and engine bay dimensions are the most crucial factors. Case in point - the M88 turbofan (that powers the Rafale) cannot be mounted onto a Tejas. For that matter, neither can the core of the M88 engine replace the Kabini core in the Kaveri turbofan. The dimensions do not work.

The J20 was designed from the outset to have the AL-31F turbofan and later on adopt a Chinese-developed engine --> the Shenyang WS-10. It remains to be seen whether the AMCA can fit a Al-31F turbofan in its engine bay. The AMCA is designed for the GE F414 turbofan and will later adopt an Indian-developed engine ---> an uprated Kaveri.


No, I think it is pretty clear the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft will be using a F404/RD-33/Kaveri class engine. Twin Al-31s would make it a heavyweight fighter like the Flanker or J-20. In that case, we would have an AHCA.


Actually not a bad idea to think about a heavy class fighter .. start with a concept vs need/requirement vs unmanned aircraft

kit
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 06 Sep 2018 04:59

nvishal wrote:
Kakarat wrote:And how reliable are the AL-31 engines? there have been many reports of Su-30MKIs having engine problems

Su-30 is operated by close to a dozen countries. How many foreign Su-30's have crashed? Google it.

Compare it with india

For reference, total seven indian su30s have crashed so far


I think India uses its fighters far more than most other operators

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 11 Sep 2018 00:31

AMCA project roadmap elucidated by AMCA program director Dr. Ghosh


some pertinent points
  1. clear upgrade roadmap in phases is already present
  2. Engine will be rated approximately 110 kN
  3. Program is on schedule

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 11 Sep 2018 16:12

^^^ Thanks Sourav.
Heartening vid

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JTull » 12 Sep 2018 02:31

Did I hear it correctly that the AMCA could have a solution in place to use internal weapons bay to add fuel capacity for longer range? Is he implying a wet point in the bay or is he talking about potential variant without the internal bay?

Drop tank in-bay and external stores, will probably be better than weapons in-bay and external crop tank from radar signature pov.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 12 Sep 2018 03:42

I think they have a plan for internal drop tanks as per him. But IMO how much fuel available due to that vs what would be the impact on overall operational capability vs overall cost is a matter of consideration.
The weapons bay tightly packs just two AShM and two AAMs in an F35, AMCA is in similar weight category. So space for a meaningful amount will be an issue.

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 12 Sep 2018 09:02

I really hope they contract Boeing to critique the design of the AMCA before committing to it.

Undetected design blunders could cost years and years of wasted development efforts.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Chinmay » 12 Sep 2018 10:25

Why Boeing, and not Lockheed Martin, given that LM is the one with most experience of designing and manufacturing an operational stealth fighter?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 13 Sep 2018 12:35

^^ LM won't help create its own competition.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kashi » 13 Sep 2018 12:59

I know they are different things, but perhaps a technical audit of the design like the Safran-Kaveri.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Sep 2018 13:20

SaiK wrote:^^If AMCA sees 20 squadrons, then we are on the big path of delivering a squadron of 6th gen stealth bombers. let's go easy on this OT for now.

perhaps this is the right thread for AMCA. How many AMCA's would be ordered
It is supposed to replace
1. Mig 29: 66
2. Mig 27: 84
3. Jaguar: 92
It wouldnt be unreasonable to expect orders for Navy too:
Mig 29: 45:

This turns out to be in the: 287, well close to 14 squandrons. (Didnt i say 15-20 sqdns)

I understand that some Mig 27 roles may be taken up by MK1, rafale etc. But then some of Su30 (esp the initial versions would be on the verge of retiring by the time it comes and SDREs will have to live with it only).
Also, IAF is still short of 42 sqdns approved. There was a discussion where, ramana had said for an offensive posture on 2 front war we would need in the range of 50 sqdns. While that may be a stretch, but with a larger economy, we should be able to support a bigger sqdn strength for IAF/IN.

Happy to learn from you!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 13 Sep 2018 17:32

We will need BAE or Dassault to help us audit the design.

they do not have any competing design in the category and they might like to keep their expertise current by getting involved with our project

One of my concerns about AMCA is about the internal fuel capacity. One gets different figures for the internal fuel capacity from 4 tons To 8 tons

4 tons would be too low and 8 tons seems to be improbable

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 16 Sep 2018 19:27

was this posted (by erroor :) ) here few months back?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/04 ... ghter.html

“What worries the air force is development and production schedules. Every time we talk of projects in India, we aren’t able to tell with confidence what the production schedule will be. Our current production rates are rarely over six aircraft per year, and aiming for 16. This is still less than the required number when you do the multiplication. And this is for the LCA. Now we have to think of the AMCA. This is what worries the air force,” he said, but asserted that the Indian Air Force was ‘fully supporting’ the project

“We are taking up a lead-in project and also trying to talk to various production agencies from the beginning, unlike in the case of the LCA where everything went through HAL,” he said. “HAL themselves are agreeing that they could be the lead and other companies could take care of other modules to speed up development and production. If we can make this timeline miraculously low, that would meet the IAF’s main requirement.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Katare » 17 Sep 2018 07:21

What is so special about super cruise engines, in 80s and 90s even commercial airliners used to super cruise in transatlantic flights?

Is it just the thrust/weight ratio or the aircraft needs to be low drag low weight massa grade design? Or both?

Christopher said clearly that F414 is starter engine it’ll be changed just like LCA once design matures

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 17 Sep 2018 08:48

SaiK wrote:was this posted (by erroor :) ) here few months back?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/04 ... ghter.html

“What worries the air force is development and production schedules. Every time we talk of projects in India, we aren’t able to tell with confidence what the production schedule will be. Our current production rates are rarely over six aircraft per year, and aiming for 16. This is still less than the required number when you do the multiplication. And this is for the LCA. Now we have to think of the AMCA. This is what worries the air force,” he said, but asserted that the Indian Air Force was ‘fully supporting’ the project

“We are taking up a lead-in project and also trying to talk to various production agencies from the beginning, unlike in the case of the LCA where everything went through HAL,” he said. “HAL themselves are agreeing that they could be the lead and other companies could take care of other modules to speed up development and production. If we can make this timeline miraculously low, that would meet the IAF’s main requirement.

going through this again, must say Dr Christopher comes off as a rare visionary who has a VERY good idea of what the challenges are from all stakeholder's POV and how to tackle them. wonder if we should have given him an extension or maybe given him the overall monitoring of AMCA as a special project.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 17 Sep 2018 08:53

very true, GOIs handling of the entire DRDO successor bijness was very lackluster.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 21 Sep 2018 12:00

x-posting from Tejas dhaaga

Kartik wrote:India looks to indigenous fighters


With the number of the Indian Air Force’s fighter squadrons expected to decrease quickly from the present 31 as the current fleet ages, there has been a decisive endeavor to accelerate the recapitalization of the fighter fleet. The majority of the new fighters are to bear the “Make in India” label. By 2032, the Indian Air Force plans to have at least 18 squadrons of Indian-made fighters, said the Deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal R. Nambiar, at a conference held in Delhi this month.

Nambiar said that the squadrons of the indigenously built fleet would include the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk1, Mk1A, and Mk2 that, in 10 years, “would be the mainstay of our inventory.” LCA variants would replace the MiG-29s, Jaguars, and Mirage 2000s. He said of the LCA: “It is a wonderful aircraft but deliveries are too slow.”


With the India-Russia fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project showing little signs of moving ahead, it is the twin-engine, stealthy Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program that the Indian Air Force is now looking at “as a replacement for the Sukhoi Su-30s, which will start showing their age by then,” noted Nambiar. He said that the air force “has put its money where its mouth is” and has already released a facility in Coimbatore in South India to the Defence Research Development Organisation to start work on two AMCA technology demonstrators. In the meantime, the Minister of Defense, Nirmala Sitharaman, confirmed to Parliament the feasibility study for the development of AMCA had already been completed.

While optimistic about the project, Ashis Kumar Ghosh, the AMCA project director, said that there have been numerous challenges. “AMCA is in the fifth-gen, 25-ton weight category, to be operated [partially] stealthy and with internal weaponry. The most important [challenge] is developing the technology indigenously while retaining common design drivers, yet being different. We would like to fly with a readily available engine, and the swing role has to be performed, as asked for by the air force.” He added that an increase in survivability was planned with “stealth, electronic warfare, and performance.”

Realization of the plan is to first fly two technology demonstrators of a fifth-generation aircraft. “Once the airframe is ready and flown, we will start to add others in a phased manner. This helps in de-risking the program as we can start work on different aspects simultaneously.” He added that a quality, skilled manufacturing ecosystem was essential for the AMCA to be built. Vendors, he said, would be dealing with a “high geometric complexity. Too many requirements are required for stealth. If you cannot maintain proper tolerances, it becomes a challenge.”

As the first of 36 Rafales are delivered from September next year until 2022, an official indicated that Dassault Aviation could likely be given an additional order in later years, as they would most likely be cheaper. With two squadrons established at different bases in India, and able to absorb additional aircraft, there would be no further need to equip additional bases with the necessary tooling and equipment.

Regarding the Request for Information released for 114 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA), with a Request for Proposal that will be issued late next year at the earliest and implemented after three to four years, there is cynicism among many OEMs who feel that this, too, might experience the fate of the earlier MRCA that was canceled by the previous government. Additionally, 85 percent of the MRCA project has to be “Made in India” by a Strategic Partner (SP)/Indian Production Agency. While it has a straightforward intent, the perplexing SP model is slow with decision-making and the final draft has yet to be implemented, leaving future vendors in a state of uncertainty.


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 24 Oct 2018 06:14

Shot in the arm for AMCA (moi thinks)

https://defence-blog.com/news/france-un ... ghter.html
Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 24 Oct 2018 10:45

SaiK wrote:Shot in the arm for AMCA (moi thinks)


How would that be sir? Instinctively i feel it poses a threat to the AMCA (unless you are referring to the similar design features), though the French would not be as crude as the Americans nor would they offer any co-development carrots like the Russians.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 24 Oct 2018 11:21

Just think what IAF really wants.

Rafale, earlier Mirage that was modeled after in Tejas.

Not just 1, but 2 and a 3rd data point for any nay sayer, I have given.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby venkat_r » 26 Oct 2018 08:52

Important thing that I got from that report is that they are planning a technology demonstrator in 2025 and the replacements in 2040 - kind of gives the timeline of one of the best company in Aviation, we should have similar expectations from AMCA and HAL at best, and give more time for the company and the industry to mature.


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