Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 2010)

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vina
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vina »

Rahul Mehta wrote:1. I am a common, and not a mullah (aka learned person).
Ah.. On the contrary Shri Shri Rahul Mehta Maharj Ji, you are an extraordinarily "uncommon" person, I would not lump you with the "commons". So Guruji, aapke charan kahaan hain? Choone dijiye!
The consequences of defaults on external loans are all 100% non-negative, IMO. And IMO, those (non-BRites) who oppose defaults on external loans should be dismissed as agents of external lenders.
Ah Guruji. But horses for courses. One size fits all /cookie cutter will not work in all circumstances no ?
The best positive consequence of defaulting on external loans is that no one will lend us in future. Good riddance.
If you are not totally self sufficient (food ,energy etc.. etc and are willing to cut yourself off totally from the external world) , then defaulting for the sake of it, unless for extraordinary reasons will be idiotic to say the least. The pain of default and financial bankruptcy is not light and should be measured against the pain of alternatives.

If Ireland defaults,it will be a catastrophe for Ireland. Irish anyway are traditionally mobile have a small population (of less than 6 mil or so) and will move to Australia/NZ/Canada/UK/USA in a flash and the problem will take care of itself. Same with Iceland.. too small, can eat fish and go back to a lower subsistence level of existence and look for longer term. Argentina.. similar thing.They can eat all the beef and fish and wheat and alfalfa and get their oil from their own lands.

If Spain defaults, big trouble .. It has a 60/70mil pop, cant move anywhere, has no natural resources like oil etc, depends a lot on trade, and anyway, the spanish economy is larger than the entire muslim world put together (yes... all the oil driven ME countries have a total GDP less than Spain), and if that defaults, the Euro has to break , pain will shoot through Spain and it will be a massive turmoil that wont have any good endings.
But defaulting on external loans needs a non-corrupt leadership which we dont have. So first we should focus on getting a non-corrupt leadership so that we can default
.
Err Maharaj. India is absolutely fine. We have a great track record and the possibility of default in 1991 unleashed the reforms that have been so successful.

However for countries under stress (Argentina, Iceland, Ireland etc), there is no reason why you cannot negotiate a working agreement with the lenders and make them take a hair cut by restructuring the debt. After all, the lenders shoulder some of the risk as well when they lend!
Aside : We should not default in internal debt.
And why is that Guruji ? You can rob others, but not your own ? But what if you need continued money from others in case you need the capital. Are we going to go back to Gandhiji's style of self denial and self contained autoarky where everyone wears just ONE dhoti and langoti, no top, drinks the milk from the goats you manage to raise and live in the hut you live and eat grounduts and what a 5 sqkm area within your dwelling produces ?.

No Kiwi fruit, no apples from NZ/Aus/USA/China/Wherever, no onions from Karnataka (if you are in Ahmedabad), no cheese from France, no wheat grown in Punjab /MP..you get the drift?
3. What morals?
Exactly guruji. When your eminence advices the common people to return to a Gandhiji kind of living, I somehow feel that there will be "No Morals" in those people and they will start rioting and start demanding all sorts of things they are used to . For eg, now , they are out demonstrating that even forbidden food (Jains like you are smart.. they knew right away, that this was no good and best avoided) like Onions and Garlic have hit Rs 90 and Rs 240 a kg and want the price to come down.

If only they had listened to you and not got into those "Tamasic" foods in the first place , along with other forbidden foods like Potatoes, Tomatoes and other root and foreign vegetables!
2. AWMTA :)
Very AWMTA
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhischekcc »

Rahul Mehta,

AWMTA == All Wise Mullahs Think Alike :mrgreen:

Ergo, you are a self confessed mullah :lol:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ashokpachori »

Rahul Mehta wrote:
Icelandic officials, including central bank governor Davíð Oddsson, stated that the state did not intend to take over any of the banks' foreign debts or assets. Instead, new banks were established around the domestic operations of the banks, and the old banks will be run into bankruptcy. The Icelandic economic crisis has been a matter of great concern in international media.
But "who" decided that banks will be allowed to die? Was it citizens of Iceland who forced this decision on Ministers, Central Bank Governors or did Ministers decided without pressure from citizens? And what did citizens of Iceland want? Did they also want banks to die? Or did they want Govt to take over debt of the banks?

Icelandic Financial Supervisory Authority (FME)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ashokpachori »

The consequences of defaults on external loans are all 100% non-negative


Hence its safe to assume that the following would be non negative too:


Foreign investors flee.

High Inflation takes place.

Country´s credit rating gets screwed up.

Massive unemployment shoots up.

Capital flight taking place.

GDP shrinkage.
***********************
During early ninties, no one wanted to lend us money, so we pawned our 400 ton gold (chartering 2 flights to Bank of England). Then we introduces sovergein bonds.

Default may imply showing a middle finger to IMF-WB (international community) in the absence of restructuring/rescheduling option of said loan.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

I think vina says it aptly that the pain of default has got to be compared the alternatives available.

There're cases (or soon gonna be cases) in the western world where that comparison will come up for debate. When Mike Hudson talks of Latvia, this tiny sikkim of a country in the Baltics, you had to see the kind of conditions the swedes put in to recover their loans. Hudson doesn't call it 'neo-colonism' lightly. And he knows what he is talking about.
Michael Hudson is Chief Economic Advisor to the Reform Task Force Latvia (RTFL).
It is essentially a demand that the Latvians live and work and slave away to repay the debt and nothing else .
Capitulating in a classic Stockholm syndrome (literally to Swedish banks in this case), Lithuania’s government dutifully tightened to screws so much that GDP plunged by over 17 per cent. A similar plunge occurred in Latvia. The Baltics have slashed public-sector employment and wages, imposing poverty rather than the Western European levels of prosperity (and progressive taxation to foster a middle class) that was promised after the Baltics achieved their independence from Russia in 1991.

After Latvia’s parliament imposed austerity in December 2008, popular protest in January brought down the government (as a similar protest did in Iceland). But the result was merely another neoliberal “occupation regime” run on behalf of foreign banking interests. So what is unfolding is a Social War on a global scale – not the class war envisioned in the 19th century, but a war of finance against entire economies, against industry, real estate and governments as well as against labor. It is happening in the usual slow motion in which great historical transitions occur. But as in military conflicts, each battle seems frenetic and spurs wild zigzagging on the world’s stock and bond exchanges and currency markets.
IN Latvia, the plunge was 23% of GDP. Life saving meds in hospitals also were at the discretion of swedish paymasters now. Schools, security, energy, food - everything rationed out at colonial discretion. Anyone reminded of Yindia under the Briturds?
The Baltic debt problem is chronic and structural, not “exceptional.” Ms. Merkel also must know that she is being deceptive in pretending to help Latvia by extending loans that the EU limits explicitly to support the lat’s exchange rate, not for domestic development. The foreign exchange is to cover the cost of Latvians paying mortgages in euros to Swedish banks, and of Latvian consumers buying food and manufactures that EU governments subsidize while leaving the Baltics in a state of economic and financial dependency.

Latvia thus is being victimized, not helped. The aim is to give Swedish banks a little more time to keep collecting payments on loans that are going to go bad in due course. Foreign exchange spent in facilitating private debt service to foreign banks becomes a national debt, to be paid by Latvian taxpayers. This EU loan thus is an exercise in naked neo-colonialism.
OK, ok. Again, be sceptical and all that. Such disclaimers do hold. The future ain't pretty either way. Look at what the bankers have been upto.
Bank lobbyists know that the financial game is over. They are playing for the short run. The financial sector’s aim is to take as much bailout money as it can and run, with large enough annual bonuses to lord it over the rest of society after the Clean Slate finally arrives. Less public spending on social programs will leave more bailout money to pay the banks for their exponentially rising bad debts that cannot possibly be paid in the end. It is inevitable that loans and bonds will default in the usual convulsion of bankruptcy.
The end-game is clear. In fact it is the only game in town.

Just when I thought I was getting a hang of this crisis thing.....its all back to square one again.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

Hari, I met an aero engineer turned debt/credit counsellor. He is in business for last 20 years. He says he hasn't seen the likes of this downturn in the period since Carter lost the elections. I asked him what makes him tick?

He said when he started out he was bewildered as the rest of the people. He started out mortgage brokering and finally decided that fixing credt scores is the best line for it gives him a steady source of grateful bakras. So he decided to crack the system. He fed his own data gathered over ten years into a SQL server and ran a number of scenarios. And then applied them in real life and found he could raise credit scores regularly by minor safe credit practices. One nugget he told me was the credit bureaus look at ~ 38 pieces of data to arrive at the number. And some of the obscure ones have a large role to determine the outcome.

His final comment was all those high funda classes in pattern recognition etc were not wasted!
I said wasted to the aerospace industry but not to the credit score industry!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

Auditors Face Fraud Charge
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 69366.html
New York prosecutors are poised to file civil fraud charges against Ernst & Young for its alleged role in the collapse of Lehman Brothers, saying the Big Four accounting firm stood by while the investment bank misled investors about its financial health, people familiar with the matter said. State Attorney General Andrew Cuomo is close to filing the case, which would mark the first time a major accounting firm was targeted for its role in the financial crisis. The suit stems from transactions Lehman allegedly carried out to make its risk appear lower than it actually was.Lehman Brothers was long one of Ernst & Young's biggest clients, and the accounting firm earned approximately $100 million in fees for its auditing work from 2001 through 2008, say people familiar with the matter. The suit, led by Mr. Cuomo, New York's governor-elect, could come as early as this week. It is part of a broader investigation into whether some banks misled investors by removing debt from their balance sheets before they reported their financial results to mask their true levels of risk-taking, a person familiar with the case said. The state may seek to impose fines and
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Paul »

Ramana wrote:
His final comment was all those high funda classes in pattern recognition etc were not wasted!
Can you please elaborate on this?
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

He wouldn't talk but what I gathered is he fed ten years worth of data that he had into a database system (SQL) and did a number of analyses He figured out that all three credit bureaus gather ~38 pieces of data and that some data while appearing innocous have great impact. I didn't probe furhter as it would be showing too much interest in his business.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Paul »

Thanks Ramana, there is a lot of depth in your writings. Ever since I took up your lead on the game theory, I have succeeded in pulverizing the competition at work.

Meanwhile wiki says this about pattern recognition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SwamyG »

This is what plagues America and is being exported to all parts of the World.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Airavat »

WikiLeaks could stir up new trouble for the nation's biggest bank:

Julian Assange, the anti-secrecy organization's founder, has said he is preparing a "megaleak" about a large bank, leading to speculation the Bank of America is the target. On Monday, he told the Times of London that he had enough information to make the bosses of a major bank resign. Meanwhile, Bank of America has cut off payments intended for WikiLeaks.

Analysts say it's possible WikiLeaks could stir up new trouble for the nation's biggest bank, perhaps exposing more problems in the mortgage arena or reviving questions about its Merrill Lynch acquisition. A Bank of America employee told McClatchy Newspapers that it appeared the bank had recently stepped up security internally, taking steps to block access to websites such as Gmail on company laptops. The bank declined to comment on security procedures.

Through its Twitter handle, WikiLeaks has encouraged Bank of America customers to close their accounts.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Ambar »

BofA accounts are covered by FDIC. No matter what Assange has in his arsenal, Uncle Sam will save BofA. At worst the cable just might be about hundreds of billions worth garbage CDOs/MBOs that have been covered over, but thats an open knowledge and BofA is one of the many major banks in that category.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SwamyG »

Bank jobs along with the government jobs were considered a safe job in India. In America, looks like bankers are considered as evil as used-car sales men.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Life is but a series of pattern recognition tests only, ramana garu....

Anyway, 2008 and 09, this thread was busy hajaar. 2010 it took some well deserved rest. Something tells me it might well get hajaar busy again in 2011 only. Watch this space....
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

He said the same too. "The wurst is yet to come!"
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Rahul Mehta »

Auditors Face Fraud Charge
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 69366.html
New York prosecutors are poised to file civil fraud charges against Ernst & Young for its alleged role in the collapse of Lehman Brothers, saying the Big Four accounting firm stood by while the investment bank misled investors about its financial health, people familiar with the matter said. State Attorney General Andrew Cuomo is close to filing the case, which would mark the first time a major accounting firm was targeted for its role in the financial crisis. The suit stems from transactions Lehman allegedly carried out to make its risk appear lower than it actually was.Lehman Brothers was long one of Ernst & Young's biggest clients, and the accounting firm earned approximately $100 million in fees for its auditing work from 2001 through 2008, say people familiar with the matter. The suit, led by Mr. Cuomo, New York's governor-elect, could come as early as this week. It is part of a broader investigation into whether some banks misled investors by removing debt from their balance sheets before they reported their financial results to mask their true levels of risk-taking, a person familiar with the case said. The state may seek to impose fines and
As I had said,

1. All news are paid news
2. All silences are paid silences
3. All judgments are paid judgments
4. All opinion polls are paid polls
5. All cricket matches are fixed matches
...

And to that add : All audit reports are paid reports.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

UKstan slowly, ever so slowly, inching towards what looks like big trouble.

Britain slides further into the red: Monthly borrowing hits record £23.3 billion
George Osborne was given a pre-Christmas shock yesterday as Britain dived deeper into the red. Borrowing jumped to a record £23.3billion in November despite the Chancellor’s austerity drive, according to the Office for National Statistics. That is £777million a day and £5.9billion more than in the same month last year.[..]

A collapse in confidence in Britain’s ability to tackle the deficit could send the economy into another tailspin. The Government has borrowed £104.4billion in the first eight months of the fiscal year – only just below the £105.1billion this time last year. City economist 155billion in 2010-11 – less than the record £156billion deficit racked up by Labour but more than the £148.5billion planned by the Chancellor.

Andrew Goodwin, senior economic advisor to the Ernst & Young Item Club, said: ‘These figures really are a bolt from the blue and will ensure a miserable Christmas for the Treasury. ‘The November figures pretty much wipe out all of this year’s reduction in one fell swoop. ‘It will provide more fuel for the sceptics who question whether the Government can really achieve the scale of public spending cuts that it plans.’ The national debt rose to £971billion at the end of November, or 65.2 per cent of gross domestic product, another unwanted record.
To UQ's credit, it is at least trying serious measures to curb spending. Much of the crisis in the emerged khanomies can be traced to the simple mismatch between entitlement promises made and the resources available to service the same. Simple as in simple to understand, hard to resolve, though. This will get ugly and I fully expect the elitemen to screw the commons over all over again by defaulting on welfare obligations and promises slyly but big time only.
Debt interest payments jumped from £3billion in November last year to £4.5billion this year – or £150million a day. State spending last month was more than 10 per cent higher than November 2009 at £53.9billion, while tax revenues were up just 3 per cent at £36.7 billion. The Government has outlined an £81billion package of public sector spending cuts to reduce borrowing to £35billion in 2014-15.
yawn. Plans and proposals. What about reality? Maybe, a decade down when times are bad enough, Dilli and london could negotiate an on-demand extradition treaty, eh? The likes of Isaac Muiviah, Musharraf, Nadeem saifi and so on could be suddenly found loitering around desi bus stops and rail stations inplain view of police thanas someday, who knows, eh?

Meanwhile, David cameron does a james cameron and shows the brit public an avatar scale fiction story....
The Prime Minister insisted the coalition was on a ‘rescue mission’ after Labour ran up the UK’s biggest ever deficit. ‘I don’t think that’s an exaggeration,’ said David Cameron. ‘Just look at what’s happened in Ireland, Greece and southern Europe. Just eight months ago, we were on a similar track.

‘Make no mistake, the country was in the danger zone and it has taken this coalition making difficult decisions to pull us out of that danger zone.’ Mr Cameron also insisted Britain’s AAA credit rating was safe, interest rates were down and ‘confidence is being restored’.
We know how this movie ends, though. There's Hopium in the air. As always. Jai ho and all that.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Lithuania’s government dutifully tightened to screws so much that GDP plunged by over 17 per cent.
Indonesia's GDP plunged by 25% in the Asian economic crisis. It led to social unrest and riots. I am sure they have not forgotten IMF's behavior.

Can someone tell if our country is safe from these problems?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by kmkraoind »

Shanghai Stocks Drop Following Failed 3 Month Bill Auction

Why auction of bills had failed, is it liquidity gut, faith in China's economics or any reason. What it implies. Expecting reasoning of it from economics gurus like Surajji, Hariji, Neshantji et al. TIA
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vina »

And to that add : All audit reports are paid reports.
Vehwy AWMTA indeed! :P
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyamd »

See the link for all the nice graphs and links that are attached.
Is it the 30s - or the 70s?
Stephanie Flanders | 12:20 UK time, Thursday, 23 December 2010

Comments (112)

"Whatever happens, we don't want to repeat the 30s." That has been the mantra of policy-makers since the financial crisis began. The last time the world had seen a banking crisis on this scale, the result had indeed been the Great Depression. But the reference point in thinking about the 1930s is always the horrendous experience of the US. We forget that in the UK, the Depression was not nearly as Great.

Nicolas Crafts and Peter Fearon remind us in the latest edition of the Oxford Review of Economic Policy that Britain's national output rose by 18% between 1929 and 1938. That's feeble. But in the US, output barely managed to grow at all (and the economy actually shrank, by more than 25%, between 1929 and 1933).
From p287 of the Oxford Review of Economic Policy, v26n3

From p287 of the Oxford Review of Economic Policy, v26n3

The 1930s were also a much worse time to hold US stocks: the value of the US stock market fell by nearly 40% over the decade. In the UK, share prices in 1938 were "only" 12% lower than in 1929.

Why this trip down Memory Lane? Because the most important reason the UK avoided a US-style fall in output in the early 1930s was that it avoided lasting deflation. In 1938, the UK price level was almost exactly where it had been in 1929; in the US, prices were more than 25% lower. And the main reason we prevented prices from falling is that we left the gold standard in September 1931, which caused a 25% fall in the value of the pound against the dollar.

In that crucial sense, Britain has indeed repeated the experience of the 1930s - and that is good news. The question now facing the Bank's monetary policy committee is whether they have done too good a job of avoiding America's fate in the 1930s, to the point where we risk a repeat of the 1970s instead.

The minutes of the last Monetary Policy Committee meeting, released yesterday, show that the Bank thinks the target measure of inflation, CPI, could well reach 4% in the next few months, and is likely to remain above 3% for the rest of 2011. If so, the governor would end the year having written a total of 13 letters to the chancellor.

As I've written many times in the past, the Bank has some decent explanations for the consistent overshoot. It's become known as the "Lemony Snicket" defence: a series of unfortunate events, like rising import prices and the switches in VAT.

Interestingly, we tend to talk in similar terms about the stagflation of the 1970s, which we always blame on an "external shock" in the form of the Opec oil price rise. In fact, as Spyros Andreopoulos points out in a recent paper for Morgan Stanley, the downturn in the global economy happened before the big oil price hike, not afterwards. And subsequent oil price rises, in the 1990s and after, didn't produce stagflation at all.

He thinks that stagflation in the 1970s was only partly due to Opec and other "unusual events". More important was a long period of loose US monetary policy, which the rest of the economy was forced to follow, at least until the 1971 collapse of the Bretton Woods system, which indirectly linked other countries to the dollar. On this view, it was loose US and global monetary policy that generated the conditions that allowed Opec to raise prices as high as it did. The Fed then loosened policy even further, in response to the oil price rise, thereby laying the ground for the Great Inflation.

There are important differences between now and then - not least, the fact that, outside of the UK, prices are flat and even falling in many of the largest economies. But you have to say the similarities are interesting. (I will have more to say about today's rise in commodity prices, and what it means for the advanced economies, in a future post.)

In the past two years the UK has applied the lessons it learned in the 1930s, and once again shown its capacity to devalue its way out of deflation. But we should probably also get clear what the lessons of the 1970s are - in case we start to repeat them as well.


The future: Even more imbalanced

Stephanie Flanders | 18:12 UK time, Tuesday, 21 December 2010

Comments (67)

The Bank of England's most consistently interesting economist had some bad news today for anyone worried about the problem of global imbalances. He thinks that those current-account imbalances are likely to get bigger, probably a lot bigger, in the next 10 to 20 years - and there may not be very much that anyone can do about it.

Andy Haldane, who runs the bank's financial stability division, has given some seminal speeches on the banking crisis over the past couple of years. In today's remarks at Chatham House he's branched out into international macroeconomics, to ask why global current-account deficits and surpluses grew so big in the lead-up to the crisis - and what is likely to happen to them in future.

His boss, Mervyn King has what you might call a keen interest in this issue. You'll remember that before last month's G20 summit in Seoul he warned that if the leaders didn't agree how to bring down these imbalances, "the next 12 months might be an even more difficult and dangerous period than the one we have been through." In the event, they agreed that they needed to agree, and that was about it. We'll probably see the same debate again next year, with China wanting a gradual path to lower Chinese savings rates and a stronger currency and America wanting more adjustment, more quickly.

The Seoul summit was disappointing, if not much of a surprise. But the message of Andy Haldane's speech is that even if the major economies were able to come with a "grand bargain" to resolve global imbalances, it might not make much of a difference.

Stepping back from the arguments in Seoul, he identifies some major long-term forces behind rising surpluses in the emerging market economies, and rising deficits in the West. Most of these trends will intensify in the next few decades - in other words, that the deficits and surpluses are going to get even bigger.

The speech is worth reading in full [311Kb PDF].

He starts by pointing out that the imbalances we have seen in the past few years are larger than any we have seen in the last 100 years, and they seem to have been driven by (a) more integrated global capital markets and (b) changes in national savings rates. The difference between what America invests as a nation, and what China and other emerging economies invest, is roughly the same as it always was. What's changed is that China and the rest are saving much more, and America and other deficit countries have been saving a bit less. With a more integrated global capital market, it's become easier for differences in national savings and investment rates to turn into different current-account positions.

Here's the question, as Haldane puts it: "Is the problem impatience in the West, or excessive patience in the East?" His answer is both - and neither.

Some say it is cultural differences: Asians have a "savings culture", maybe even a savings gene, whereas Americans have a deep cultural propensity to spend. But there isn’t much evidence of this. In one academic study, 68% of American students were willing to sacrifice a short-term pay-off, to get a larger long-term reward. The figure for Chinese students was 62%.

The two more important factors behind high Chinese savings rates are that Chinese companies retain profits, whereas American companies prefer to distribute them to shareholders, and Chinese households must save more of their income, to pay for their family's education, health and old age. As I pointed out in another post, the repressed Chinese financial system plays a big role here - giving companies no alternative way of raising funds to invest, and giving households such a bad return on their money, they have to save more and more of their income to keep up.

Switch to the US, and you can see that the American financial system has been all too efficient at getting financing to US companies - and US households - without anyone having to take the trouble to save. Housing equity withdrawal alone accounted for 4% of personal disposable income in the US in 2005, up from less than 2% in 2000. This rise was primarily due to poorer households getting greater access to finance: as Haldane says, "liberalisation fed impatience".

Intriguingly, Haldane thinks that rising income inequality in the US has also lowered the savings rate among poorer households, as families strive to "keep up with the Joneses". Among rich countries, it's striking that a higher level of income inequality seems to go with a larger current-account deficit. (see the chart below).

chart15_211210.jpg

All of this is very interesting, you might say, but does it tell us anything about the future? The answer is yes - but perhaps not in the way you think. In talk of a "grand bargain", the focus has been on the level of real exchange rates (particularly China's) and long-term structural reforms, for example, developing a social safety net and a health system in China, to encourage households to put less of their income aside. Those things could be helpful, but they sound like small beer, relative to the deeper global trends that have taken current-account imbalances to such highs.

On this analysis, sweeping structural reform of the Chinese financial system would probably help more - especially if it made it easier for funding to flow to companies, and reduced the incentive for them to hang on to every yuan they can. However, that would involve the Chinese giving up control over the banking system. The current leadership will find it a lot harder to do that than to build a Chinese NHS.

And... even if they did both, Haldane argues that the combined effects of global capital market integration and demographic change are likely to make global current-account imbalances bigger, not smaller, in the years ahead.

First, emerging market economies are likely to get richer in the next few decades, and as they get richer they are likely to expand their external balance sheet - that is, to acquire more foreign assets. Assuming (and it is a big assumption) that the G7 economies maintain roughly the same ratio of foreign assets to GDP, Haldane reckons that the Brics would catch up with the G7, on this measure, by around 2035. By 2050, over half of all G20 external assets would belong to the Brics, compared with around 9% today. The US share would fall from 28% to 12% (see the chart below).

chart18_211210.jpg

This may be an extreme case - for one thing, you'd expect the G7 countries to be increasing their stock of foreign assets, as a share of GDP, over this period (see my post from October). But, looking around the world, we are looking at a period of dramatic shifts in global financial power, and that could have some thorny consequences. As Haldane notes:

"If this path were to be even broadly followed, it would have implications for the scale of global imbalances, which will tend to rise as gross capital flows outpace GDP growth. It would have implications for financial stability, as the scale of gross capital surges (fuelling bubbles) and reversals (fuelling crises) increases. And it may also have implications for the dollar’s reserve currency status."

chart21_211210.jpg

Second, there's our old friend, demography. As the chart above shows, there will be a rising proportion of "prime savers" in developing countries for at least another 20 years, while the share in the advanced countries continues to go down. Other things equal, that means savings in rich countries will continue to fall, while savings in emerging countries keep going up. The forecast is that demographics alone could increase India's savings rate by 10 percentage points of GDP by 2050. By that point, China could account for half of all global savings - the US, a mere 5%. If things are not so equal - the retirement age goes up in rich countries, perhaps, or the emerging market economies develop their welfare systems - that could slow down these trends, but it's unlikely to reverse them.

So where does all this leave us? I think it leaves the world facing a very difficult choice in the next few years, and it's not whether and how to revalue the Chinese currency. If Haldane is right, we either have to learn to live with large current-account imbalances, and all the destabilising swings in capital flows that go with them - or we have to stop having a fully integrated global capital market. It may really be that simple.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

thx for that article, shyamd.

The speech by the andy fella is a worthwhile read, seems like.

link
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by krisna »

$2tn debt crisis threatens to bring down 100 US cities
Overdrawn American cities could face financial collapse in 2011, defaulting on hundreds of billions of dollars of borrowings and derailing the US economic recovery. Nor are European cities safe – Florence, Barcelona, Madrid, Venice: all are in trouble
New Jersey governor Chris Christie summarised the problem succinctly: "We spent too much on everything. We spent money we didn't have. We borrowed money just crazily. The credit card's maxed out, and it's over. We now have to get to the business of climbing out of the hole. We've been digging it for a decade or more. We've got to climb now, and a climb is harder."
American cities and states have debts in total of as much as $2tn. In Europe, local and regional government borrowing is expected to reach a historical peak of nearly €1.3tn (£1.1tn) this year.
Cities from Detroit to Madrid are struggling to pay creditors, including providers of basic services such as street cleaning. Last week, Moody's ratings agency warned about a possible downgrade for the cities of Florence and Barcelona and cut the rating of the Basque country in northern Spain. Lisbon was downgraded by rival agency Standard & Poor's earlier this year, while the borrowings of Naples and Budapest are on the brink of junk status. Istanbul's debt has already been downgraded to junk.
Arizona has sold its state capitol and supreme court buildings to investors, and leases them back. :shock:
Michigan, california, illinois florida arizona are the named states with problems.
Europe- florence venice basque country in spain, lisbon istanbul naples budapest have been named.
US cities tend to default more than European municipalities as they usually rely on bonds issued to investors, which enter into a default if the creditor misses payments. European towns, by contrast, traditionally depend on bank loans and government bailouts.
some of them have been posted already here under different headings.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by krisna »

[youtube]DInGq0mIWro&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
I did not see this clip here when I searched this thread hence posting it here.
Seeing the economic problems on a gigantic scale this is one of the scenarios gamed by pentagon
The Army, through training exercises dubbed "Unified Quest 2011," is actively pursuing strategies to deal with a variety of scenarios including large scale economic breakdown, domestic order amid civil unrest and ways to deal with fragmented global power.
Pentagon, Military Actively War Gaming ‘Large Scale Economic Breakdown’ and ‘Civil Unrest’


May be uncle can outsource it to china---how to keep the internal unrest under control :oops:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

From the Atlantic, a sociological piece but apt for this thread, IMO.

The End of Men
Earlier this year, women became the majority of the workforce for the first time in U.S. history. Most managers are now women too. And for every two men who get a college degree this year, three women will do the same. For years, women’s progress has been cast as a struggle for equality. But what if equality isn’t the end point? What if modern, postindustrial society is simply better suited to women? A report on the unprecedented role reversal now under way— and its vast cultural consequences
Wow, eh? maybe. Here's more.
What if the modern, postindustrial economy is simply more congenial to women than to men? For a long time, evolutionary psychologists have claimed that we are all imprinted with adaptive imperatives from a distant past: men are faster and stronger and hardwired to fight for scarce resources, and that shows up now as a drive to win on Wall Street; women are programmed to find good providers and to care for their offspring, and that is manifested in more- nurturing and more-flexible behavior, ordaining them to domesticity. This kind of thinking frames our sense of the natural order. But what if men and women were fulfilling not biological imperatives but social roles, based on what was more efficient throughout a long era of human history? What if that era has now come to an end? More to the point, what if the economics of the new era are better suited to women?

Once you open your eyes to this possibility, the evidence is all around you. It can be found, most immediately, in the wreckage of the Great Recession, in which three-quarters of the 8 million jobs lost were lost by men. The worst-hit industries were overwhelmingly male and deeply identified with macho: construction, manufacturing, high finance. Some of these jobs will come back, but the overall pattern of dislocation is neither temporary nor random. The recession merely revealed—and accelerated—a profound economic shift that has been going on for at least 30 years, and in some respects even longer.

Earlier this year, for the first time in American history, the balance of the workforce tipped toward women, who now hold a majority of the nation’s jobs. The working class, which has long defined our notions of masculinity, is slowly turning into a matriarchy, with men increasingly absent from the home and women making all the decisions. Women dominate today’s colleges and professional schools—for every two men who will receive a B.A. this year, three women will do the same. Of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most in the next decade in the U.S., all but two are occupied primarily by women. Indeed, the U.S. economy is in some ways becoming a kind of traveling sisterhood: upper-class women leave home and enter the workforce, creating domestic jobs for other women to fill.

The postindustrial economy is indifferent to men’s size and strength. The attributes that are most valuable today—social intelligence, open communication, the ability to sit still and focus—are, at a minimum, not predominantly male. In fact, the opposite may be true. Women in poor parts of India are learning English faster than men to meet the demands of new global call centers. Women own more than 40 percent of private businesses in China, where a red Ferrari is the new status symbol for female entrepreneurs. Last year, Iceland elected Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir, the world’s first openly lesbian head of state, who campaigned explicitly against the male elite she claimed had destroyed the nation’s banking system, and who vowed to end the “age of testosterone.”
And while I'm all for female empowerment and all, the rote shouldn't be via male disempowerment....
The list of growing jobs is heavy on nurturing professions, in which women, ironically, seem to benefit from old stereotypes and habits. Theoretically, there is no reason men should not be qualified. But they have proved remarkably unable to adapt. Over the course of the past century, feminism has pushed women to do things once considered against their nature—first enter the workforce as singles, then continue to work while married, then work even with small children at home. Many professions that started out as the province of men are now filled mostly with women—secretary and teacher come to mind. Yet I’m not aware of any that have gone the opposite way. Nursing schools have tried hard to recruit men in the past few years, with minimal success. Teaching schools, eager to recruit male role models, are having a similarly hard time. The range of acceptable masculine roles has changed comparatively little, and has perhaps even narrowed as men have shied away from some careers women have entered. As Jessica Grose wrote in Slate, men seem “fixed in cultural aspic.” And with each passing day, they lag further behind.

As we recover from the Great Recession, some traditionally male jobs will return—men are almost always harder-hit than women in economic downturns because construction and manufacturing are more cyclical than service industries—but that won’t change the long-term trend. When we look back on this period, argues Jamie Ladge, a business professor at Northeastern University, we will see it as a “turning point for women in the workforce.”
Yup, the economy's gone down the drain and with it work hopes of most men too. Wonder if 'mandatory' child support payments can be made conditional on the male's wage status at least now.
The whole country’s future could look much as the present does for many lower-class African Americans: the mothers pull themselves up, but the men don’t follow. First-generation college-educated white women may join their black counterparts in a new kind of middle class, where marriage is increasingly rare.
Hey, if the taliban is looking for recrits, perhaps they should consider yumrika. Am sure, they'll find volunteers....
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

danger with women is they tend to band together and form supportive women-only networks quite easily across team and org boundaries. women managers tend to be quite chummy with women employees and men feel upset there is favouritism and nepotism going on. and women managers try to remold their men employees as women - i.e. be more hypersocial, talk and make noise just for the sake of talking, play silly team games accompanied by lots of giggling....precisely the things that irritates most men.
in the quest for 'upliftment' a lot of orgs are pushing women into managerial roles they are not fit to hold properly. a man doing the same things will generally not get the same carrot.

generally I see merit as given the go by for both sexes in favour of gender empowerment, who has worked closely with the big boss earlier, who is more chamcha of the bosses....none of this is good for the long term
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyamd »

Portugal asks China to buy its government bond

the EUR has been supported by reports that China is prepared to buy around EUR 4-5bln worth of Portuguese bonds next year

China minister warns EU debt crisis could turn 'chronic'
(AFP) – 2 days ago
SHANGHAI — China's commerce minister has warned that measures being taken in Europe to fix the sovereign debt crisis are "turning an acute disease into a chronic one", state media said Friday.
The comments from Chen Deming come after China said this week it supported measures taken by the European Union and the International Monetary Fund to ensure financial stability in the eurozone and pledged to buy government debt.
But Chen said the 750-billion-euro (984-billion-dollar) rescue fund set up for EU countries struggling under mountains of debt as well as ongoing bond sales would not resolve the crisis.
"These measures are turning an acute disease into a chronic one. It's hard to say if the nations mired in the debt crisis can recover in three to five years," Chen was quoted saying in the Shanghai Securities News.
He also warned China must closely watch the development of the crisis, particularly in January and February.
Earlier this week, Chen told reporters on the sidelines of Sino-EU trade talks in Beijing that China was "very concerned about whether the European debt crisis can be controlled".
China's ambassador to the EU, Song Zhe, however, said the Asian country was confident "the euro will emerge from the crisis", in remarks posted on the foreign ministry's website Friday.
Foreign ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu on Thursday repeated China's backing to eurozone countries and said Europe would be a "major market" for investment of Beijing's massive foreign exchange reserves.
But Jiang refused to comment on specifics about how Beijing would invest in Europe.
China has pledged to buy bonds from Greece and Portugal but it has not yet made any concrete commitments on the size of its investment.
A report in Portuguese newspaper Jornal de Negocios said Wednesday that Beijing was ready to buy up to five billion euros (6.5 billion dollars) of Lisbon's sovereign bonds.
Analysts said China's support for the euro was being driven by its desire to ensure its biggest trade partner continues buying its exports and to diversify its world-leading foreign exchange holdings away from the dollar.
China sensing that if EU goes down, then they are going to pay a heavy price. This could be the end of PRC. EU is a major customer for PRC's wears. So, a major customer taking a hit is going to significantly affect PRC's economic growth. I bet PRC will make some big "loans" (which will never be paid back) to the EU. "Hope" is probably the favourite word in Ministry of Commerce at PRC right now.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vera_k »

^^^

Well, the PRC is just being colonized again. Their people will slave and save away only to have a foreign people live a comfortable life by the virtue of their labors.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

surely they will ask for some kind of collateral

in the 1990s when India desperately needed a loan, UK took India's gold reserves as collateral and literally had it flown out of the country to hold on as collateral.

Want a loan ? Put up the collateral.

Debt rating agencies are BS and biased in favor of the country in which they were setup.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SwamyG »

Neshant: I hope you don't get tickled when I tell you I was reminded about you last weekend :-) I was watching the documentary "Collapose"; and Michael Rupert was predicting the collapse of Fed Reserve :-)))) I could not stop myself thinking about your opinion on the subject here. It is a great D&G documentary. Netflix customers can stream it from here Collapse @ netflix. Peak Oil, energy, population ityadi are discussed.

Also another documentary Mind over money, a NOVA production makes an attempt at bring down "Chicago School of Economics". This documentary explains "rational economics" vs "behavioral economics". It is not conclusive, but one can easily draw personal conclusions. The last 50 years of economics model is quite at stake. Experiments at Chicago University (Booth School) themselves are beginning to show we, humans, are not all that rational when it comes to money. Emotions play a key role. I have been arguing with my friend, who has his MBA from this Booth School, for ages now about cultural, emotional and personal situation aspects of economics when it comes to decision making.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

I note you and a few others who had earlier been defending banking & bailout hounding have quietly begun singing a different tune. How come? :-)

On a broad scale, as the collapse approaches, I predict the financing & high rolling jive talkers will feel they are in danger of being exposed as frauds and will start sounding more and more like the people they were arguing against. Later they will claim they were the ones who predicted it all along.. lol!

The good news is I have a front row seat to the collapse of the pseudo science that banking goons, federal reserve shysters & half-assed economists engage in. Really its just a fraud to set up useless middleman as parasites living off the fruits of other people's labor.

I already sense there are fewer and fewer takers for the easing of this and loosening of that crap talk money printing scamsters are engaged in at central banks.

I stand by my prediction that in 3 to 5 years, the federal reserve will be shut down. A lot of the bailout hounds and banking goons will quietly repackage themselves as having predited the crisis in advance and re-emerge as advisors on how to structure the new economic system.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Bade »

vera_k wrote:^^^

Well, the PRC is just being colonized again. Their people will slave and save away only to have a foreign people live a comfortable life by the virtue of their labors.
Only partly true. People who live within PRC are already enslaved and colonized by the small coterie in power, but with better living conditions in the cities at least than in the old European colonies. The smaller European countries will become the PRC power brokers colonies slowly. No one gives free money. Look forward to PRC bases in these failing economies, unless the better ones in Europe can put a fight for them with their wallets.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SwamyG »

Neshant wrote:I note you and a few others who had earlier been defending banking & bailout hounding have quietly begun singing a different tune. How come? :-)
Dude, you disappoint me. Can you point out where I have supported anything you accuse me of, huh? Seriously.....

I wish you paid close attention to what others wrote too.

This is what I said on September 18th. I have voiced similar opinions couple of times before too.
So how much is the overall bail out money? Just around or over a trillion dollars, no? Instead of bailing out the banks or corporations ONLY, they could have sent checks to human beings. Some would have paid their credit card debts, mortgage payments, deposited in the banks, or even spend it on coca colas and potato fries. There is no way, in hell, that when money is given to millions that all of them would hide it on their eazy-chair or bury it in their backyard. Which was different in the case of banks, they did not trust each other. There are about 110 million household or so in America. 50K or 100k to each household would have put the money in people's pockets and ultimately back into the economy.

The banks should have been given just enough to keep the economic system from totally melting and/or hemorrhaging our system. At the most some sort of balance could have been achieved.
again on September 18th
Hari Seldon wrote: (e) print a coupla trillion more and disburse directly to all US households some $50k types to pay down their costliest debt (student, credit card, mortgage) and start anew,
SwamyG wrote: Nice to note that even my "non-economic" view of the government giving the money directly to people instead of the corporations has a variation. Patting myself on the back onlee :-)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Najunamar »

SwamyGale,
Not disagreeing with your premise/Hari garu's but 110M x 50K$ = $5.5T and not $1T, not that Unkil will bat an eyelid even at that (to my SDRE sensibilities) enormous figure (!)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SwamyG »

Yeah, the numbers are astronomical. Maybe 50K is huge, maybe they could have applied additional filters than simple household numbers. It could have been calculated using tax paid or mortgage held ityadi. But Look at the numbers. Already $3t have been invested. $11t committed. Is that not obscene? Like you said, the premise is help the people (as many as possible).
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

spain and portugal who had very inefficient and stagnant economies in the middle age (compared to the surging mercantile developments in italy/france/netherland) managed to sustain themselves by looting the New World of its gold and tin and nickel and such...portugal as the much junior partner got the wet and steamy jungles of brazil, spain kept the rest incl the plum louisiana territory (southern us), mehico, argentina, uruguay, chile...good farmland, temperate grasslands...the spanish ranchers ('hidalgos') had a contempt for basic farming or trade - they preferred to rear horses, cattle, sheep and live life on horseback and alcohol....

so these two surely have lots of gold bullion and precious metals in national reserve to act as collateral. or else they would have to sign some lopsided trade deal to buy chinese products in equal measure - like ships, machinery, consumer goods, telecom gear, king long buses...they also have artifacts and antiques gathered and looted from other parts of world in their colonial heydays...the chinese could use these to display in shanghai and beijing as symbols of arriviste and colonial soft power.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ArmenT »

Singha sir, Spain already lost a lot of the gold by the 1600s as they had become a debtor nation. While people think that the conquistadores did find a lot of gold (and they did for the standards of that time), it was minimal compared to how much was produced by the Gold rush and modern mining today.

See this article for more details.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shynee »

Largest Private Employer in Saginaw, Michigan Will Be the City Government of Beijing
General Motors (GM) has completed the sale of its Saginaw, Michigan-based Nexteer steering business to China-based Pacific Century Motors. Pacific Century Motors is a joint venture between Beijing-based auto components supplier Tempo Group and E-Town, the financing and investing arm of the Beijing municipal government.

None of the parties have disclosed the terms of the deal. However, some sources have revealed that the steering unit has been sold for about $450 million, making the biggest single investment in the global auto parts-making industry by a Chinese company.

Presently, Nexteer’s headquarter and research and development facility in Michigan has about 3,000 employees.

In a similar move, Zhejiang Geely Holding Group bought Volvo cars from Ford in order to tap China’s high-growth auto market by acquiring modern, innovative technologies from the Swedish brand to strengthen its car lineup. In December last year, Geely also signed up Johnson Controls Inc. (JCI) as its global parts supplier.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Paul »

The Spainish gold was siphoned off to USSR during the Spainish civil war. Under Comrade Stalin;s express orders to take the gold out before Gen Franco's nationalists came in to take over the country. After the war when nationalist party ruled Spain asked for the gold the reply given was that it was accepted as payment for arms supplied to the pre civil war govt in the 1930s. :mrgreen: Almost 500 tons of gold was transferred to USSR at this time.

Comrade Stalin's gleeful comment. "They will never see the gold again. Just as they cannot see their own ears!"
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