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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 02:22 
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IMO, there is no doubt that its impressive that they've been able to put 2 new fighters with significantly different designs into the air within such a short time span of each other. They do have a lot more aerospace resources than we do and there is no shame in accepting that. It's also clear though, that both the J-20 and J-31 prototypes are basically at the Technology Demonstrator levels, with stop-gap arrangements for engines and possibly even a lot of the avionics on board. But they understand the value of psyops, without a doubt. Our people seem to have no clue about that.

There is a long way to go yet for these programs to become operational types, exploring the envelope, developing the FBW code, fine tuning the onboard avionics, radar, testing out the internal weapons bays which they're using for the first time, and in parallel develop indigenous variants of the AL-31 and the RD-33 for these fighters- but the Chinese seem to have embraced the philosophy of iteratively developing their weapons systems instead of waiting to get it all right in the first go itself. And they're lavishly spending on their own programs, while in our case at times indigenous programs starve for funds, which is criminal neglect.

The only good I can see coming out of this is that IAF and MoD top brass will have their tummies in knots and will see no other option but to push for timely completion of the MRCA deal, and back the FGFA and the AMCA to the hilt without setting goals that set up the AMCA for failure or for major delays. I also hope ADA/DRDO/HAL do a better job of project management, scope management and public perception management this time around.


Last edited by Kartik on 01 Nov 2012 02:29, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 02:28 
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Kartik wrote:
There is a long way to go, but the Chinese seem to have embraced the philosophy of iteratively developing their weapons systems instead of waiting to get it all right in the first go itself.


Clearly a better way to do it too, IMHO. Good luck selling that concept to the IAF though.


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 02:36 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
Kartik wrote:
There is a long way to go, but the Chinese seem to have embraced the philosophy of iteratively developing their weapons systems instead of waiting to get it all right in the first go itself.


Clearly a better way to do it too, IMHO. Good luck selling that concept to the IAF though.


I agree..one example I quoted earlier too was the IAF's requirement that the AMCA not feature a HUD and instead have ALL the HUD's data displayed on the HMDS itself. This is a drag and drop feature they've picked up from reading up on the F-35. This a requirement of very questionable benefit (ok, the pilot sees flight info even when looking off-bore sight, but how useful is that?), but one that has already given set backs to the F-35 program while the issues of jitter and image display lag are fixed. Yet, the IAF sets this as a requirement..why ?! why won't a HUD do? Ask for a bigger FoV, better resolution, frameless, whatever, but why dump the HUD altogether just because the F-35 does that?

The Chinese J-20 features a HUD and for sure the J-31 won't feature any major technological jump. But, they'll fine tune the design while any such technologies are developed in parallel. Unless the IAF recognises this and doesn't ask for the moon in the AMCA Mk1 itself before getting it to FoC, we'll be in for a decade or more of frustration.


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 06:13 
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manum wrote:
We dont hear about LCA for days, even after a break through...and we are seeing rigorous rituals of trials and integration...Despite having a free media..


Is it possible that is because LCA is being late? I mean very very late? :) I am pondering which is going to enter service first, J-20 or LCA?


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 06:32 
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You people want LCA ins chinese airforce ???


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 07:11 
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wow, IMHO it does not matter how Chinese are doing it or what they are doing to get things right in their aircraft R&D.

I only wished it was my country who could achieve it first, LCA MK 31 instead of J-31.

Congrats to them for flying F-35 clone, great achievement indeed.


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 07:29 
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in my opinion they would have another stealth plane also in the works, perhaps a long range medium sized bomber, with a bigger internal bay more optimized for VLO day1 strikes/SEAD role of the role the F117 was expected to fill when in service.

and definitely one can expect the current crop of non-stealthy ALCMs to gain the boxy, faceted stealth treatment and deeper shrouded exhausts of the jassm/kh101 types to make them harder to track. they might fly lower and faster with improvements in nav systems. a PIO engineer who worked in hawaii is in a US jail for life for selling cruise missile exhaust masking tech to Cheen to bolster their efforts...that may not be the only help he provided because he was a key engineer in the B2 program for northrop as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noshir_Gowadia

I like it. the threat from Cheen is a full spectrum one, ranging from infantry level up to space. nothing like a good strong enemy to keep people on their toes :D as the saying goes, even if you are on top of the hill, you better compete with yourself, or someone else will!


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 08:57 
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Recently at a gathering in NYC, I ran into a retired Philipino army general. He said ..." aircraft carrieer or no aircraft carrier or stealth planes....the Chinese can never dream of chasing us away from the Spartly islands. The Philipinos, the Malaysians and the Indonesians will fight the Chinese if worse comes to worst and we will win. Our people are motivated and determined." He was not optimistic about Vietnam though because Vietnam has a land border with China and would be hard pressed to oppose a land invasion by the modernized PLA. But its a different story when it comes to the Malaysians, Pinos and Indonesians.
Avram


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 22:53 
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Bheeshma wrote:
What do you mean intended role. Like type-051a to d and 052 a-d they are all following chinese experimental methodology of build and see if it works or try again.


:) Synopsis of their 'experimental' or 'iterative' methodology doesn't end here. They even developed full scale model of a very old design in the name gaining 'Engineering competence'. And we have seen satellite pic of full scale mockup of F-22 siting in between the buildings in China.

Even if we have surplus fund, we won't be doing such an exercise of building a full scale obsolete ship only to prove mastering of an engineering concept. Often a joke is shared on how Americans are such idiots. It seems Chinese are aping Americans even in this. Well, maybe, they are trying to solve problems which stems from their own weakness and shortcomings. It may be the case in Aviation sector too, who knows. Our problems and our approach to those problems are very different. We will address that in our own style.


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 23:29 
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asprinzl wrote:
....
....
The Philipinos, the Malaysians and the Indonesians will fight the Chinese if worse comes to worst and we will win. Our people are motivated and determined." He was not optimistic about Vietnam
....


I would be very wary of believing these generals. Most of these countries, including Vietnam, have massive trade and investment links with China. Right now they can have all the buster they want. But within a decade, when the USA and USN has had a lost decade and PLAN continues to grow none of the navies of these countries will be able to take on the might of PLAN. And if we think that the south east nations might be able to pool in their resources to meet a common threat then forget it. ASEAN nations could not agree on a common strategy to counter the Chinese claims in the South China Sea in recent history.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 00:00 
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First of all, congratulations to the Chinese for doing the commendable job of coming up with two new aircrafts in such a short span.

But, I couldn't help but say this about the following pic. One is copied from Russia and another is copied/stolen from US.
Image

The JSF
Image


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 00:31 
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asprinzl wrote:
Recently at a gathering in NYC, I ran into a retired Philipino army general. He said ..." aircraft carrieer or no aircraft carrier or stealth planes....the Chinese can never dream of chasing us away from the Spartly islands. The Philipinos, the Malaysians and the Indonesians will fight the Chinese if worse comes to worst and we will win. Our people are motivated and determined." He was not optimistic about Vietnam though because Vietnam has a land border with China and would be hard pressed to oppose a land invasion by the modernized PLA. But its a different story when it comes to the Malaysians, Pinos and Indonesians.
Avram


Just jingoistic talk. None of these countries have either the quality or quantity of equipment and forces to take on China, even when pooled together. And it's the pinos who are lagging behind the most- they do not even have a single modern fighter aircraft - there was talk months back of buying trainers and reconditioned f 16s but don't know if they got even one on the ground by now.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 00:54 
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True, the vietnamese are the only ones in SEA who have given china a bloody nose and have the will power to do so.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 10:45 
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They all have been on major weapons buying spree especially for air dominance recently and are still at it. The Spartly islands are much closer to them than China and the shallow waters and uncharted reefs there will hamper heavy naval vessel operations including the flat tops. There is a reason why these countries are investing in air power. In the event of a flare up, the Chinese planes would have to operate far away from home base which would restrict their combat ability and their troops occupying the islands would be sitting ducks. There is a reason why they are much more into bullying the Vietnamese than the others. They already got a taste of SEA wrath when the PAF bestroyed two of their surveillance ships pretending to be fishing vessels and took hold of some so called fishermen apparently didnt know anything about fishing but more about operating radars and other gizmos.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 10:50 
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Why is it that the Sukhoi's "bottom" is much more clearer than the so called stealth plabe even though they were supposed to be flying under the same skyline? Errr....photoshop???????? And a real $hitty one at that. Looks like lately even fish wives' and salt wives' amateur graphic design class work is being touted here....


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 10:52 
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perhaps the downside of having to use 2 x smaller engines vs a giant JSF 1xengine has a upside is a slightly wider space for the internal bay that could permit packing in 2 more AAM.

other than that even the JSF team would be proud of such a faithful copy..imitation is the best flattery.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 11:21 
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Singha wrote:
perhaps the downside of having to use 2 x smaller engines vs a giant JSF 1xengine has a upside is a slightly wider space for the internal bay that could permit packing in 2 more AAM.

other than that even the JSF team would be proud of such a faithful copy..imitation is the best flattery.


Interesting take from Aviation Week

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... e20a1cb3e5

Quote:
Short take-off and vertical landing has been one of the two driving requirements behind the Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter design, the other being stealth.

STOVL dictated the single engine, and the STOVL solution chosen for the F-35 demands a big vertical bay behind the cockpit, and a main engine located unusually far forward, to keep the driveshaft length within reason and to put the lift-cruise nozzle in the right longitudinal location for balance.

This constrains the weapon-bay volume and shape, and effectively subdivides the bays into four zones -- two AAM bays and two heavy store sections. As Amy Butler reports in Aviation Week & Space Technology this week, too, the weapon bays, wrapped around the engine, get hot and noisy.

If you ever wondered what a JSF might look without those constraints, we now have a live, physical example.

Unfortunately ...... it's Chinese.



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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 11:37 
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looks like AMCA proposal is on right track architecturally :mrgreen: we have cloned the J31 layout.

in all this, EU is starting to look distinctly weak - china, japan, korea, russia, india and usa are the only nations confirmed investing in manned VLO platforms to my knowledge?


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 11:48 
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Singha wrote:
looks like AMCA proposal is on right track architecturally :mrgreen: we have cloned the J31 layout.

in all this, EU is starting to look distinctly weak - china, japan, korea, russia, india and usa are the only nations confirmed investing in manned VLO platforms to my knowledge?

Europe is bankrupt, they can't afford a multi billion dollar stealth fighter program. Thats why the British is relying on the Yanks for their next gen stealth fighter.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 13:03 
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With so many aircraft projects running, how can Chinese manage to develop them to full potential ? F-35 is years away from entering service, this J-31 will perform even worse, considering the state of Chinese engine technology and the fact that this is a very different type of engine than they've used till now.
If somehow, thy manage to develop these to reasonable combat standards, it'll be interesting to see how many enter service. No country has enough money to induct all these weapons.
A lot of these fancy new weapons are more for H&D show rather than actual use


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 13:12 
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http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/ ... 351742890/
Quote:
China: New stealth fighter tested
(3)|| | inShare.0
Published: Nov. 1, 2012 at 12:08 AM
BEIJING, Nov. 1 (UPI) -- China successfully tested its second stealth fighter with experts calling it a milestone for its military aviation industry, state-run Global Times reported.

The report, quoting a witness, said after a 11-minute flight Wednesday, the fighter designated J-31 landed on a runway of the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. in northeast Liaoning Province.

The Global Times said major Chinese military news websites confirmed the maiden flight of J-31 after witnesses uploaded its pictures. It said the J-31 is the second of China's fifth-generation fighters, having tested the first one J-20, made by Aircraft Design Institute in Chengdu, was tested in January of 2011.

The two stealth fighters have made China the second country after the United States to develop two fifth-generation fighters, the Global Times said, quoting an expert.

"Just like the U.S. F-22 and F-35 fifth-generation fighters, the J-20 and J-31 will complement each other during future operations," Bai Wei, former deputy editor of the Aviation World weekly, told the Global Times.

"The J-31 is almost certainly designed with the intention to have the potential of operating on aircraft carriers, judging from its enhanced double-wheel nose landing gear and two big tail wings, which help increase vertical stability."

Bai also said the developers of J-31 might also look at export market for the plane.



Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/ ... z2B3BAPrmY)


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 13:54 
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Don wrote:

The two stealth fighters have made China the second country after the United States to develop two fifth-generation fighters, the Global Times said, quoting an expert.


Hmm interesting.

I was under the impression that 5th gen is
1. Stealth
2. AESA
3. Seamless networking and great situational awareness
4. Supercruise
5. Associated development of engines for the purpose
6. Associated development of suitable materials

None of these has actually been demonstrated by any of these Chinese aircraft. At some stage people are going to start sniggering at this mera lund dekho show. Apart from dark paint and copycat shapes what is on show?


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 13:56 
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shiv wrote:
<SNIP>None of these has actually been demonstrated by any of these Chinese aircraft. At some stage people are going to start sniggering at this mera lund dekho show. Apart from dark paint and copycat shapes what is on show?


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 14:24 
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rohitvats wrote:
shiv wrote:
<SNIP>None of these has actually been demonstrated by any of these Chinese aircraft. At some stage people are going to start sniggering at this mera lund dekho show. Apart from dark paint and copycat shapes what is on show?


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 14:27 
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pinpricks aside , 1-6 are useless without a VLO shape airframe - which is flying and demonstrated years before we get our TDs in the air.

also given the extent of funds being poured to nurture these projects in parallel, wouldnt you think all these points 1-6 are also getting 10x of Indic funds to develop, buy, clone, steal?

Unkil will manage, thats not my concern.

but - Ab hamara kya hoga kaalia ? :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 14:30 
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In India classical music one must go through a long alaap before the actual composition takes off. Similarly I have to put up disclaimers to my Indian compatriots who get upset about things I say about China on this thread.

Here is a disclaimer I have posted several times before on this thread.
  • China is rapidly progressing
  • Do not underestimate China
  • China is sitting on US$ 1 trillion
  • Quantity is quality
  • China is manufacturing world class electronics
  • You get what you pay for "You wan' cheap. You get cheap"
  • Helicopters, Planes, ships and chips may look like copies of Western or Russian stuff, but inside they are all different and far more advanced. The resemblance is purely coincidental.

To these points let me add
1. I have great respect for China
2. India is inferior.
3. I must not act too big
4. They have megaton bombs
5. They are efficient while Indians are corrupt and inefficient
6. Indians are silly to criticize China


Having got that out of the way, I find it odd that Chine seems to be doing to USA what Pakistan did to India for many decades. That is to pretend that all developments in India were only pretence and gloss and that Pakistan was right up there, equal and shoulder to shoulder with India. Pakistan lunched satellites, manufactured tanks and jet aircraft - all better than India and before India.

These two aircraft J 20 and J 31 seem to be a Chinese attempt to put up a similar show. Oh they are pretty and the shapes, even if copied look convincing. But Pakistan's empty rhetoric became evident only after 10 to 20 years. Anyone who plays with aerodynamic shapes will know that a plane shape object, suitably powered (or bestowed kinetic energy) will fly, given some basic lift surfaces and balance.

But there is a huge huge difference between a steatlh fighter shaped object and a stealth fighter. The irony is even more acute when you see that the Chinese have not even bothered to state a function or role for the two aircraft. he Chinese like symbolism. they know that half the world will be awed by these shapes, the other half will laugh at the pretence. But still they do it because I think the Chinese actually like the awe and utilize the critics views to prove to other Chinese that the world is against them and does not want to give them their due even though they are right "up there" with the best.

Because the world has been ruled by Western nations and the USSR we have become accustomed to a particular style of international behavior. That is why it took so long for people to understand that you can actually get a country like Pakistan that lies through its teeth and negotiates with a gun to its head.

China too shows this strange combination of behavior where spectacular and praisewrothy things are highlighted with great pride, expecting praise, while failures and dark spots are completely hidden away. The failure to give any explanationor specs fro the J-20 and J-31 are ignored and stonewalled. This is a nation for which honor and respect in public is important. It is a Chinese version of the old Paki/Arab echandee.

Al Chinese displays needs to be filtered through this lens as well to gain insight into why they do what they do. Just my pisko thoughts


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 14:34 
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Singha wrote:
pinpricks aside , 1-6 are useless without a VLO shape airframe


No 1 and 6 are integral to and indispensable or else it is pretence. It is one thing to copy the shape. But making it stealthy will not come without 1 and 6. And iunless the engines have great power without afterburning, you are looking at engines that are unstealthy - throwing out a huge IR signature at crucial times.

So please read my disclaimers above - but unless the Chinese can show more than fancy shapes i would not compare with India and flagellate ourselves as is our habit on here.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 14:46 
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The Chinese do things in part to make the other person jealous/feel afraid/self flagellate.

It is alright to do that. But there will always be minority stupid jerks like me who are skeptics. What I find interesting about the way the Chinese put up a great show is that asshole skeptics like me need not even be countered by the Chinese. Indians will counter me with the accusation that I am blinkered and it is people like me who helped India lose in 1962 and the presence of "frogs in the well" like me are why India is such a loser nation.

1962 was the biggest psychological coup the Chinese conducted against India. Indians have never stopped being shit scared of anything China does since then. Indian ranging from those in their 60s to people in their twenties have a healthy fear of China. Funnily enough what the Chinese did was to take over Aksai Chin that was undefended by India (which they had been threatening to take over and had even built a road). But they actually kicked Indian butt and withdrew in the east. That has left a lasting scar on the way Indians think about China.

One fancy photo here and we have Indians falling over themselves congratulating the Chinese and criticizing India's tardiness and inefficiency. Mao was indeed a great man. This is 50 years after the 1962 war. That is an admirable performance.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 15:05 
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Long way to go for the J-20 and the J-31 (to bring down its radar / IR signature). Nevertheless, by the time production starts in 2020+, I am very confident that US/EU/Russian technology will be able to detect them and shoot them down at range. The great thing about this technological race is that its China vs. Rest of the World (US, Europe, Russia, India, Japan, etc), and China will never develop a superior system.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 17:12 
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shiv wrote:
The Chinese do things in part to make the other person jealous/feel afraid/self flagellate.

It is alright to do that. But there will always be minority stupid jerks like me who are skeptics. What I find interesting about the way the Chinese put up a great show is that asshole skeptics like me need not even be countered by the Chinese. Indians will counter me with the accusation that I am blinkered and it is people like me who helped India lose in 1962 and the presence of "frogs in the well" like me are why India is such a loser nation.

1962 was the biggest psychological coup the Chinese conducted against India. Indians have never stopped being shit scared of anything China does since then. Indian ranging from those in their 60s to people in their twenties have a healthy fear of China. Funnily enough what the Chinese did was to take over Aksai Chin that was undefended by India (which they had been threatening to take over and had even built a road). But they actually kicked Indian butt and withdrew in the east. That has left a lasting scar on the way Indians think about China.

One fancy photo here and we have Indians falling over themselves congratulating the Chinese and criticizing India's tardiness and inefficiency. Mao was indeed a great man. This is 50 years after the 1962 war. That is an admirable performance.


It is the system and not the people. Indics are as efficient or may be more effficient when they are put into a efficient system like Indian private enterprises or US. They become in-efficient when they are put into bad systems like Indian public sector organizations like DRDO or ISRO. Chinese are also the same. I can bet if u put a chinese in an Indian PSU he will not perform. You transfer the Indics to chinese PSU and they will deliver. The indian public system - despite of all the talks of democratic etc - is so in-efficient that in major cities they cannot even keep the streets clean of grabage by sweeping on time and why are we blaming Mao for that. The himalay blunder is exactly due to this in-efficient system!


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 17:23 
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eklavya wrote:
Long way to go for the J-20 and the J-31 (to bring down its radar / IR signature). Nevertheless, by the time production starts in 2020+, I am very confident that US/EU/Russian technology will be able to detect them and shoot them down at range. The great thing about this technological race is that its China vs. Rest of the World (US, Europe, Russia, India, Japan, etc), and China will never develop a superior system.


This is a strong statement in support of the fact that Indian public systems are so in-efficient and corrupt. We are now hiding behind the whole world to take on China. We cannot even say that - we will also be ready with a equivalent fighter to meet might with might because we know that the Indian public system will not be able to field any thing in the next 20 years other than hot talks. Most of the news item that comes out from Indian public sector carries the word "will" and seldom "has". That is the difference. The Chinese public sector may beg, steal, kill but it delivers!


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 17:59 
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eklavya wrote:
Long way to go for the J-20 and the J-31 (to bring down its radar / IR signature). Nevertheless, by the time production starts in 2020+, I am very confident that US/EU/Russian technology will be able to detect them and shoot them down at range. The great thing about this technological race is that its China vs. Rest of the World (US, Europe, Russia, India, Japan, etc), and China will never develop a superior system.


subhamoy.das wrote:
This is a strong statement in support of the fact that Indian public systems are so in-efficient and corrupt.


WRONG. This is a strong statement to say that China has becomes the world's problem, and the world's leading powers will contain China. Pooling our resources to contain China makes economic and strategic sense.

subhamoy.das wrote:
We are now hiding behind the whole world to take on China.


WRONG. China wants to take on the whole world. They will loose ...

subhamoy.das wrote:
We cannot even say that - we will also be ready with a equivalent fighter to meet might with might because we know that the Indian public system will not be able to field any thing in the next 20 years other than hot talks.


WRONG. Rafale, FGFA, Su-30 MKI, Mirage 2000 upgrade, MiG-29 upgrade, etc. and our Air Defence / AEW systems will defeat PLAAF.

subhamoy.das wrote:
Most of the news item that comes out from Indian public sector carries the word "will" and seldom "has". That is the difference. The Chinese public sector may beg, steal, kill but it delivers!


WRONG. Chinese public sector delivers rubbish aircraft.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 18:48 
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subhamoy.das wrote:

It is the system and not the people. Indics are as efficient or may be more effficient when they are put into a efficient system like Indian private enterprises or US. They become in-efficient when they are put into bad systems like Indian public sector organizations like DRDO or ISRO. Chinese are also the same. I can bet if u put a chinese in an Indian PSU he will not perform. You transfer the Indics to chinese PSU and they will deliver. The indian public system - despite of all the talks of democratic etc - is so in-efficient that in major cities they cannot even keep the streets clean of grabage by sweeping on time and why are we blaming Mao for that. The himalay blunder is exactly due to this in-efficient system!

Sir you may be 100% right and I will not dispute even a comma or fullstop in your post.

But thank you for proving a point I was trying to make. Every time there is some development in China - it causes Indians to admire the Chinese, and point out all the faults in India for the nth time as if no other Indian realises that. This is consistent and predictable. That is the deep impact of fear and respct that the Chinese have imprinted on the Indian psyche.

We wish we were like them and we curse ourselves every time they do something good. We pretend to admire them but hate their advancements and are jealous of them. This explains the pretend greetings that we give the Chinese when they do something great accompanied by a lecture to fellow Indians about how we should be.

In my personal opinion, (opinions are like arse holes, everybody has one) which can be dismissed instantly by anyone who reads it as complete nonsense, I believe that this fear and jealousy of Chinese combined with lecture mode towards fellow Indians prevents us from thinking objectively. Please ignore this last sentence if anyone dislikes or disagrees. I apologise even as I say it.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 18:56 
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subhamoy.das wrote:
They become in-efficient when they are put into bad systems like Indian public sector organizations like DRDO or ISRO.


DRDO and ISRO are now public sector organizations !!!!! :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 19:32 
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Location: I have principles, and if you don't like them, I have others
The way I see it is as follows - I am constrained to explain :D

If Chinese are put into bad Indian systems they will work like Indians
if Chinese and/or Indians are put into American systems they will work like Americans
If Chinese (or Indians) are put into Chinese systems, they will work like Chinese.

Neither Chinese nor American systems are like inefficient Indian systems

But are Chinese systems like American systems? If not what are they producing?


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 19:52 
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Chinese are just producing...there is no what in it...

They like to know the future, at least of having it rubbed...They are in too much hurry to prove that the little guy with specs was actually that hero...who lived happily ever after...


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 19:54 
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There are also inefficiencies in China

not a day passes without flight delays having a domino effect in Beijing airport
anything more becomes off topic


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 20:00 
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Sagar G wrote:
subhamoy.das wrote:
They become in-efficient when they are put into bad systems like Indian public sector organizations like DRDO or ISRO.


DRDO and ISRO are now public sector organizations !!!!! :rotfl:


????????????????????


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 20:09 
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Singha wrote:
also given the extent of funds being poured to nurture these projects in parallel, wouldnt you think all these points 1-6 are also getting 10x of Indic funds to develop, buy, clone, steal?

but - Ab hamara kya hoga kaalia ? :mrgreen:


Of course a valid concern. [Shiv saar already said what need to be said on this.] But a snapshot of history is available to see all those concerns are really valid.

You know, a few years after the collapse of Soviet Union, defence researchers/scientists from erstwhile SU institutions were available for hire to anyone willing to pay the right amount. China absorbed heavily these guys. Prices quoted by these guys were exorbitant to then Indian standards. Indians contemplated on absorbing these people too, instead chose a different route and produced unmatchable Brahmos, Su-30MKI and others. And look for yourself what China has achieved at that time frame.

Even with 10x indic funds, a fool can do only so much. Let's give a fair shot and believe in those hi-tech toys our comrades from China are displaying here. But what makes anyone to think that we are not making our moves?


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 21:49 
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Any weapon is only as good as the person who wields it.Indians certainly know theirs as has been illustrated in the many decades of wars and exercises.The fancy weapons with china will be exactly that., for show.As some one put it rather nicely , the Chinese are not exactly superior as they make it to be., and the Indians are not meek as they seem.Push coming to shove., china will learn a lesson they will never forget and take decades to recover if at all ! Mean time have curry and do what needs to be done.


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