The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

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nataraja
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nataraja » 20 Jun 2011 11:40

amit wrote:
nataraja wrote:Why not make the entire police force independent ? So, if someone robs me of all my belongings, the non-independent police force should investigate my case, and when a minister takes money, an independent agency should investigate it. Why ?

The way to make police independent is the same way that Lok Pal will make its investigative arm independent.


I must say some of the stuff being posted here are highly entertaining!

Boss I hope you understand that general law enforcement (which includes everything from fighting terrorists and thugs to intervening in domestic disputes, etc) and investigation into specific acts of corruption, alleged or otherwise, are two different things.

An independent police force? You gotta to be kidding. Who would head this force? Would you have a supreme commander in charge of the Indian police force? Do you realise that would mean a huge pan Indian militia which would be outside the control of the GoI. That's something which is more suited for a Banana Republic not India.

At least think before posting boss, otherwise you only score self-goals.



Allow me to enlighten you. I think you are not up on the issue of police independence.

When both Som and I talk about police independence, we dont mean that we will have a separate elected police commissioner in every state. What most social activists and ex-policemen that have been campaigning for it mean that the DGP for example, reports directly to the Chief Minister or the Home Minister and is not accountable to all and sundry politicians such as MLAs, Mayors, Corporators, Ward Bosses, ordinary members of political parties, all of who currently think nothing about storming the local police station or call the local policemen with abuse and threats of transfers to influence, pressure and intimidate the police. The result is a total paralysis in police force, as they cannot take action against the guilty. The morale of the police is shockingly low as a result.

Indpendence of police means that police force will be professionalized and only be accountable to their officers all the way up to DGP. The politicians will have no say in their performance evaluations and transfers which will all occur in a transparent and process oriented manner. If anybody has any grievance against the police, there will be a set process to address it, and all the party members and sundry will have to go through that process, just like common citizens. All politicians will be barred by law from having direct contact with the police with the intention of influencing any police activities or else there will be severe punishment. Only the Home Minister and the Chief Minister will have contact with the DGP and yes, at that level, the DGP will not be independent and be accountable to those one or two high level elected politicians.

Now there are many flavors of this stuff. I just mentioned at a very high level and without a lot of details, one flavor. By the way, none of these are original Nataraja's ideas. These are all pretty mainstream ideas that have been floating around in governmental and NGO circles for years. I do feel qualified, however, to write up a whole detailed bill, which can be presented in the assembly for approval, which will tie all the lose ends and end up doing a pretty good job, far, far better than what we have right now. And guess what, it will all be WITHIN the Constitution of India.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby amit » 20 Jun 2011 11:43

Dhiman wrote:
amit wrote:Remember 1947 was also a revolution where the blood sucking colonial power was ousted by the downtrodden. Now more 60 years later you need to call for another revolution. When will you be calling for the next one?


So according to you, we should all just go to sleep and do nothing since as you say the one in 1947 didn't work?


Oh not at all. Forthing in the mouth on Internet forums is good time pass. However, doing something in the real world would be worth its while.

But the point is, apart from calling for a revolution what exactly are doing to get the revolution going.

What I'd personally do and will do is contribute by showing by displeasure in the polling booth. And I suspect there will be millions like me who will do the same.

Just so that you know I don't buy the story of all voting machines being manipulated by a hyper power remotely from come cave complex.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nataraja » 20 Jun 2011 11:47

amit wrote:
Dhiman wrote:So according to you, we should all just go to sleep and do nothing since as you say the one in 1947 didn't work?


Oh not at all. Forthing in the mouth on Internet forums is good time pass. However, doing something in the real world would be worth its while.

But the point is, apart from calling for a revolution what exactly are doing to get the revolution going.

What I'd personally do and will do is contribute by showing by displeasure in the polling booth. And I suspect there will be millions like me who will do the same.

Just so that you know I don't buy the story of all voting machines being manipulated by a hyper power remotely from come cave complex.



You seem like a typical do nothing, know nothing Indian. It is the likes of you who in the past have caused our forefathers to suffer thousands of years of foreign rule and if it were left to people like you, we would still be a poodle of the British, who now have become a poodle themselves.

You are a prime example of a person who is heavily invested in the status quo and would go to any depths to cause any amount of harm to our people and our nation, just so you could personally benefit, as you seem to be, by the current system.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby amit » 20 Jun 2011 11:49

nataraja wrote:Allow me to enlighten you. I think you are not up on the issue of police independence.

When both Som and I talk about police independence, we dont mean that we will have a separate elected police commissioner in every state. What most social activists and ex-policemen that have been campaigning for it mean that the DGP for example, reports directly to the Chief Minister or the Home Minister and is not accountable to all and sundry politicians such as MLAs, Mayors, Corporators, Ward Bosses, ordinary members of political parties, all of who currently think nothing about storming the local police station or call the local policemen with abuse and threats of transfers to influence, pressure and intimidate the police. The result is a total paralysis in police force, as they cannot take action against the guilty. The morale of the police is shockingly low as a result.

etc..


Boy I feel enlightened all ready with a glow of new found knowledge.

Boss can you tell me under what section of what relevant law it is mandated that the DGP (for example) has to report to MLAs, Mayors, Corporates, Ward Bosses etc? As far as I know the law states that a DGP is responsible to his boss and so on till the Police Commissioner who is responsible to the Home Secretary and all the way up the CM.

However, in real life what you say is true. But to fix that you don't need an independent police force. What you need is police reform. And that is badly needed. However, if you are freely interchanging the need for police reform with this idea of an independent police force then my bad. But I must add that in that case you need to be careful in what you write because you compared your idea of an independent police force with the investigative arm of the Lokpal which is proposed to be independent of the GoI.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby harbans » 20 Jun 2011 11:52

Disha Wrote:
Is that our own somnathji and harbansji?


Nataraj wrote:

They would not be serving a cheap, roadside shanty made cake to Respected Rahul ji. They would be offering the very sumptuous and finger licking Tiramisu flown specially(or freshly arrived as part of carry on baggage of the highly revered Soniaji) from Risorante Pompi in Rome !


Disha/ Nataraj:

IF you think thats me, or that's what i/we would serve Rahul . Please prove it.

ELSE:

1. Acknowledge. You lied. You are a liar.

2. IF you are not a liar, then the above is cheap/ loose talk . So you must acknowledge then that you indulge in cheap/ loose talk.

So either you are Liars or Trolls. There is no 3rd way out now is there?

Else acknowledge the simple truth:

That you both have lied. You take cheap shots in a debate without thinking what you are saying may have any bearing on reality. IN which case either way your credibility is not much. Thus you are not here to contribute to anything that may matter a bit.

So now tell me why i should not call you a deliberate liar or a troll or both?
Last edited by harbans on 20 Jun 2011 11:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby amit » 20 Jun 2011 11:53

nataraja wrote:You seem like a typical do nothing, know nothing Indian. It is the likes of you who in the past have caused our forefathers to suffer thousands of years of foreign rule and if it were left to people like you, we would still be a poodle of the British, who now have become a poodle themselves.

You are a prime example of a person who is heavily invested in the status quo and would go to any depths to cause any amount of harm to our people and our nation, just so you could personally benefit, as you seem to be, by the current system.


Actually you are right.

And that is why I come to BRF to be in the company of mighty Internet warriors like you who thunder and shake the corrupt GoI and bad mouth shivering SDREs like me - all in the anonymity of cyberspace of course.

In my many years on BRF I have hoped that some of the mighty cyber fire and brimstone would rub on to me. Sadly despite all these years it hasn't. I'm not sure even a Johnny come Lately like you will be able to help me. But hope springs eternal and so here I am still puncturing a few NEW balloons of hot air.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nataraja » 20 Jun 2011 11:54

harbans wrote:Disha Wrote:
Is that our own somnathji and harbansji?


Nataraj wrote:

They would not be serving a cheap, roadside shanty made cake to Respected Rahul ji. They would be offering the very sumptuous and finger licking Tiramisu flown specially(or freshly arrived as part of carry on baggage of the highly revered Soniaji) from Risorante Pompi in Rome !


Disha/ Nataraj:

IF you think thats me, or that's what i/we would serve Rahul . Please prove it.

ELSE:

1. Acknowledge. You lied. You are a liar.

2. IF you are not a liar, then the above is cheap/ loose talk . So you must acknowledge then that you indulge in cheap/ loose talk.

So either you are Liars or Trolls.

ELSE to prove you are not a liar or troll find evidence:

1. 1 Post in 1500 plus where i have supported INC as a platform or for that matter any political party.

Else acknowledge the simple truth:

That you both have lied. You take cheap shots in a debate without thinking what you are saying may have any bearing on reality. IN which case either way your credibility is not much. Thus you are not here to contribute to anything that may matter a bit.

So now tell me why i should not call you a deliberate liar or a troll?


Harbans,

Take it easy. Disha was just joking. It is obvious. Nobody is going to think it is really you.

I am setting the record straight. It is not Harbans. I was just having a light moment on a very serious thread. No harm intended.

By the way, the above statements by me are unconditional.

However, I will say this. You didnt think how I must have felt when you branded me a Paki or a Chinese ? Will you deny that ? Because if you do, you are a liar. Admit you are a liar or provide evidence that I am a Paki or a Chinese. Or just say you got carried away.
Last edited by nataraja on 20 Jun 2011 12:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby amit » 20 Jun 2011 11:57

harbans wrote:Disha Wrote:
Is that our own somnathji and harbansji?


Nataraj wrote:

They would not be serving a cheap, roadside shanty made cake to Respected Rahul ji. They would be offering the very sumptuous and finger licking Tiramisu flown specially(or freshly arrived as part of carry on baggage of the highly revered Soniaji) from Risorante Pompi in Rome !


Disha/ Nataraj:

IF you think thats me, or that's what i/we would serve Rahul . Please prove it.

ELSE:

1. Acknowledge. You lied. You are a liar.

2. IF you are not a liar, then the above is cheap/ loose talk . So you must acknowledge then that you indulge in cheap/ loose talk.

So either you are Liars or Trolls. There is no 3rd way out now is there?

Else acknowledge the simple truth:

That you both have lied. You take cheap shots in a debate without thinking what you are saying may have any bearing on reality. IN which case either way your credibility is not much. Thus you are not here to contribute to anything that may matter a bit.

So now tell me why i should not call you a deliberate liar or a troll or both?


Harbans ji,

I can understand your anger and it is fully justified. I also pointed out the cheap personal nature of the attacks. Anyone who has followed your posts would know what monumental stupidity it is to brand you as a Congress stooge or camp follower.

It is my belief personal attacks start at the point where arguments flounder. We've crossed that threshold as far as some posters here are concerned.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby harbans » 20 Jun 2011 12:06

Take it easy. Disha was just joking. It is obvious. Nobody is going to think it is really you.

I am setting the record straight. It is not Harbans. I was just having a light moment on a very serious thread. No harm intended.


No i am not taking it easy. That was not a joke by a long shot.

So whats it between a Troll and Liar?

I am calling you a troll and a liar. Because that is what you are. Posting and labelling a picture of sycophancy at it's worst and attributing it to a BRF poster, is either a LIE or CHEAP TROLLING of the highest level. Or both.

Now which one?

Take it easy. Disha was just joking. It is obvious. Nobody is going to think it is really you.


I was just having a light moment on a very serious thread. No harm intended.


I am not having a light moment. Passing me off a sycophant or worse, won't get you off the hook. Harm was intended as branding me in the league of the worst sycophants. So what do i call you both? Troll or Liars?
Last edited by harbans on 20 Jun 2011 12:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Dhiman » 20 Jun 2011 12:06

amit wrote:Oh not at all. Forthing in the mouth on Internet forums is good time pass. However, doing something in the real world would be worth its while.


And on what basis are you assuming that I am not doing anything in the real world?

What I'd personally do and will do is contribute by showing by displeasure in the polling booth. And I suspect there will be millions like me who will do the same.


Sure (I don't have a problem against you voting), you are only helping the political system where opposing political parties field criminal candidates in elections. This is one reason why national and state legislature are full of criminals.

What I would do is to raise my voice and take whatever little actions that I can (and by that I mean in real world) to ensure that criminals and corrupt are barred for fighting elections in the first place, so that those who should know better yet still go and vote mindlessly would have better electoral choices to begin with.

I would also encourage others to raise their voice. They have every right to do so, instead of blindly voting and then going to sleep for five years thinking that I have done by job, not I can not do anything more for next five years.

Just so that you know I don't buy the story of all voting machines being manipulated by a hyper power remotely from come cave complex.


I have commented on the security of electronic voting machines in past on BRF, but I don't think I have made any statement on whether voting machines are or are not being manipulated.
Last edited by Dhiman on 20 Jun 2011 12:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby amit » 20 Jun 2011 12:11

Dhiman wrote:Sure, and you are only helping the political system where opposing political parties field criminal candidates in elections. This is one reason why national and state legislature are full of criminals. What I would do is to raise my voice and take whatever little actions that I can (and by that I mean in real world) to ensure that criminals and corrupt are barred for fighting elections in the first way, so that those who should know better yet still go and vote without thinking would have better electoral choices to begin with.


I would read the para above to indicate that you are indeed looking for an across the board revolution which sweeps away the current political class and replaces it with a new one, which would preferably come from the proletariat which are currently reeling from machination of venal politicians (and I agree that there are venal politicians, as well as good ones, across the entire political spectrum).

My original point regarding that option is that history has shown us that the new class that replaces the older one is not always better than what it replaces. But all this is getting OT so my last post on this, on this thread.

PS: My comment about the voting machines was not meant for you specifically. It was a general comment since there's a school of though on this forum that the voting machines are manipulated.
Last edited by amit on 20 Jun 2011 12:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby harbans » 20 Jun 2011 12:14

It is my belief personal attacks start at the point where arguments flounder. We've crossed that threshold as far as some posters here are concerned.

Amit Ji, he's calling for usurping the Constitution and replacing it with the Paki and Chinese models for some time now (called me a Khalistani too). The mods have been giving this thread a bit of a pass. He's been on at a personal level for sometime now. I can take flak and am a tolerant kind of guy. BUt passing off as a 'joke' a picture of the worst sychophancy as me or SOmnath Ji...is going too goddamned far.

I am only asking him and Disha to acknowledge publicly they lied and/or trolled in addition to indulged in a very persnonal attack. It's clearly established they have.
Last edited by harbans on 20 Jun 2011 12:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby amit » 20 Jun 2011 12:18

harbans wrote:It is my belief personal attacks start at the point where arguments flounder. We've crossed that threshold as far as some posters here are concerned.

Amit Ji, he's calling for usurping the Constitution and replacing it with the Paki and Chinese models for some time now. The mods have been giving this thread a bit of a pass. He's been on at a personal level for sometime now. I can take flak and am a tolerant kind of guy. BUt passing off as a 'joke' a picture of the worst sychophancy as me or SOmnath Ji...is going too goddamned far.

I am only asking him and Disha to acknowledge publicly they lied and/or trolled in addition to indulged in a very persnonal attack. It's clearly established they have.


Harbans ji,

I fully understand your anger. In your place I would feel the same, as it is even reading it as a neutral party but someone who loves BRF, I feel angry. The problem is some folks here do not understand that a poster can have nuanced positions on particular events and issues based on their understanding and knowledge. And hence every thing is reduced to a binary code: your either with us or against us.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Arjun » 20 Jun 2011 12:21

Guys, all this talk of 'revolution' and overthrowing liberal forms of government with authoritarianism is completely discrediting those who were on the right side of the corruption issue to begin with. Anger and outrage, like I have stated before, is very essential to move things forward (at least in India) - but it has to be focused on the issue.

All talk of bringing in Paki / Chinese style governments definitely does not belong to this thread, nor to this forum. I would request the moderators to take notice.
Last edited by Arjun on 20 Jun 2011 12:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby amit » 20 Jun 2011 12:21

Arjun wrote:Guys, all this talk of 'revolution' and overthrowing liberal forms of government with authoritarianism is completely discrediting those who were on the right side of the corruption issue to begin with. Anger and outrage, like I have stated before, is very essential to move things forward - but it has to be focused on the issue.


+1

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Dhiman » 20 Jun 2011 12:29

amit wrote:I would read the para above to indicate that you are looking for an across the board revolution which sweeps away the current political class and replaces it with a new one


Exactly. Do you know what the current political class is made up of? Its made up of mainly political families and criminals + rich businessmen to a smaller extent.

history has shown us that the new class that replaces the older one is not always better than what it replaces.


I don't think you really know what you are talking about. You came in this forum wanting to vent, saw some words in my post that caught your fancy and decided to take some pot shots and now that I am willing to engage you in a serious discussion, you are bolting.

History has shown that nothing in this world is permanent, that the ruling class always needs to be kept accountable by people, that if a revolution succeeds/fails, it doesn't mean that the new rulers can be given a free hand - rulers must ALWAYS be kept accountable. Personally, I don't think that the current ruling dispensation of this country feels that they are accountable. Any time a ruling system stops feeling accountable to the people, then elections or not, a revolution is needed. A representative government is always a work in progress, but no something that you forget until the next elections.

PS: My comment about the voting machines was not meant for you specifically. It was a general comment since there's a school of though on this forum that the voting machines are manipulated.


Again, I have never commented on whether voting machines are being manipulated or not (I have commented on the general security issues around electronic voting machines though). But since you are taking a stand on this, please provide some evidence that your stance is correct.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby somnath » 20 Jun 2011 12:33

Harbans-ji, I would say give it a miss...There are lots of instances of such stuff here (and elsewhere as well I am sure) - some day a sociiologist should do a study of why people behave on the cyberspace with a (lack of) grace that they wont ordinarily show in real life...

BTW, on the issue per se, I watched Kapil Sibals' interview with Barkha Dutt last night...Must say he is much better in a one-on-one than he is in press conferences! Anyway, he confirmed much of the understanding we had from Salman Khurshid's interview (posted before) - there's been a lot of forward movement on the Bill, and the real sticking point is the coverage of PM (and judiciary) under its ambit...I have a lot of time for the govt's position on the latter..The former, Kapil Sibal's reasons were strangely laboured on that - I would stick my neck out and say that it would get tackled in Parliament..

Lastly, has anyone noticed the complete absence of BR from the narrative ? Now that he has lost his "podium of publicity", there is only ridicule for him...Worst, he has given the govt a handle to beat all such efforts with..Which is the danger when a person approaches these things with a primary agenda of personal grandstanding, without any substantive inputs on the point....

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby amit » 20 Jun 2011 12:33

Dhiman wrote:I don't think you really know what you are talking about. You came in this forum wanting to vent, saw some words in my post that caught your fancy and decided to take some pot shots and now that I am willing to engage you in a serious discussion, you are bolting.


Boss if you want to discuss we can always do on another more relevant thread. Doing so here makes it OT and Mods are usually not please with OT stuff.

And I don't believe in rushing in to post. I deliberate many time before hitting the Submit button. If you think that just because I haven't posted much in this thread I'm not keeping abreast of what folks are posting here, I can only say you're incredibly credulous.

Again, I have never commented on whether voting machines are being manipulated or not (I have commented on the general security issues around electronic voting machines though). But since you are taking a stand on this, please provide some evidence that your stance is correct.


You said so already, and I acknowledged that. Why repeat yourself?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Neela » 20 Jun 2011 12:45

amit wrote:
So according to you, we should all just go to sleep and do nothing since as you say the one in 1947 didn't work?

Oh not at all. Forthing in the mouth on Internet forums is good time pass. However, doing something in the real world would be worth its while.
But the point is, apart from calling for a revolution what exactly are doing to get the revolution going.
What I'd personally do and will do is contribute by showing by displeasure in the polling booth. And I suspect there will be millions like me who will do the same.
Just so that you know I don't buy the story of all voting machines being manipulated by a hyper power remotely from come cave complex.


By all means show your displeasure by taking it on the EVM.
But hey, remember, there is a data entry operator who enters the count in Form 20.
And on counting day, this is what matters. While you, the "real" contributor [ trumpets and bugles in the background ] , have done your job to make a difference, please be reminded that there IS someone who really shafts you remotely without hyper power using something as miniscule as a Rs.2 ball point pen. Ouch! :rotfl:
So all it takes is to get that sorted and voila ....you are the home minister of vibrant democratic India.

----------------

Yes, I do agree with Somnath/Harbans (despite the makes-you-feel-drowsy repetition of two/three points.) While they do make it quite infertile for graft , the issue is that despite that, there is still corruption on a massive scale. What these proponents feel is that more policies will eventually root out corruption. But 60 years on , this should have been there already .

The thing is, there is a " human" element to it as I mentioned earlier. The intent and the will to change are real human feelings. Heck , policies are human thought processes put down on paper. The question is, how are you going to instill that change in mind of the politicians who rule this country! I am all ears! BR and AH movements are results of lack of avenues in the existing system to be heard in between elections.

Harbans wrote:The symptom here is clearly to ride on any voice that can create anger, passion against corruption, irrespective who or what agenda's such voices may have.

This is where you can see the conceit of the other group. While dismissing them as a persons of agenda, the policy proponents are now guilty of their own accusation of others .i.e , adding nebulousness and not being precise enough.
Harbans wrote:2. Hindu Rashtra/ instillment of Dharma to Instilling Pak and Achinese state models on India.

Struck out parts which are flights of fantasy and quite stupid.An attempt at equal-equal
And what is wrong with that. You do know that there is a country that uses the Old Testament as a title deed to the land in the Middle east. They derive their legitimicay and claims for the land there!
And many political parties in Europe do have the word "Christian" in their names - and that is to tell the public that their beliefs are Christian in thought.
Equality and justice for all is not just an Abrahamic offshoot!

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby harbans » 20 Jun 2011 12:48

You didnt think how I must have felt when you branded me a Paki or a Chinese ? Will you deny that ?


Where did i brand you a Paki or Chinese? This is what you said:

Any objective view will hold that the worst form of autocratic government in history, the military regimes of Pakistan, have done better for their country, than Indian democratic regimes for our country.


I would happily trade that 9% growth in the short term, for long term security and territorial integrity of our nation. I do agree with Bhuttos, "We will eat grass" proposition, only in the reverse, meaning in Indian interests.


THIS ACT OF THE INDIAN ELECTORATE OF VOTING ALONG CASTE LINES AND ALTERNATING BETWEEN PICKING OF BUMS, ITSELF, IS AN ACT OF CORRUPTION, AND FROM IT STEMS ALL THE REST OF THE CORRUPTION THAT THEN MANIFESTS ITSELF in our society. I SUBMIT THAT THE WAY TO FIX IT, PURELY IN INDIAN CONTEXT, IS NOT TO EMPOWER AND APPEASE THIS BEHAVIOUR BY THE MASSES, BUT TO DISEMPOWER THE MASSES, A LA CHINESE OR SINGAPOREAN STYLE AND EDUCATE THE MASSES FIRST, JUST LIKE THE CHINESE OR SINGAPORE LEE DID


This is what i said in response:

Re-education, better to eat grass..now what makes me smell a Paki/ Chinese link here somewhere...


You are a newbie poster. Talking about usurping the constitution, eating grass and re-education, supremacy of Chinese and Paki systems including Military dictatorships of Pakistan as better than India's...and you think no Paki/ Chinese linkage can be questioned or suspected? We do have lot's of Paki and Chinese posters who come at times with similar thoughts. I have been around so my views on the INC are well known.

Thus: I still am not clear why you favor the Paki military or Chinese models as yet, or what is your linkage to admire these models as such. why you want India to emulate them. So i do have by your own posts a reason why i could question your admiration. Thus i am not lying or trolling. You only provided me the grounds to question that "linkage". So again you lie, that i called you a Paki or Chinese, is it not?

Now i don't have any post where i have displayed any support for the INC as a political party, let alone being a psychophant in the picture or bringing in something from Italy to feed Yuvraj. So you still are a liar or troll to me. Or both.
Last edited by harbans on 20 Jun 2011 14:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Dhiman » 20 Jun 2011 12:52

amit wrote:Boss if you want to discuss we can always do on another more relevant thread.


No thanks. Maybe some other time definitely.

Doing so here makes it OT and Mods are usually not please with OT stuff.


Then please try to keep on topic next time. Instead of telling someone that replies to your off-topic comment that "this is off topic".

amit wrote:
Dhiman wrote:Again, I have never commented on whether voting machines are being manipulated or not (I have commented on the general security issues around electronic voting machines though). But since you are taking a stand on this, please provide some evidence that your stance is correct.


You said so already, and I acknowledged that. Why repeat yourself?


I take this to mean that you have no evidence as to your original off-topic assertion that EVM's are not being manipulated.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby harbans » 20 Jun 2011 12:55

Harbans-ji, I would say give it a miss...There are lots of instances of such stuff here (and elsewhere as well I am sure) - some day a sociiologist should do a study of why people behave on the cyberspace with a (lack of) grace that they wont ordinarily show in real life...

My last Somnath Ji on this. But this was stretched too far. These kind of divisions divide people and take the core issue focus away. The aim of people with agendas is exactly that. Riding with the wave of anger and instilling there own version of authoritarianism instead. At the minimum getting political mileage and brownie points as a consequence.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby sugriva » 20 Jun 2011 12:59

From his very first post I knew that this character 'narataja' is a troll. Lets not feed the troll guys.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Neela » 20 Jun 2011 13:00

Somnath

There were a few posts on police reform. Would like to hear your views on that.Why is a independent police under the purview of the judiciary being equated to something as a militia?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby somnath » 20 Jun 2011 13:19

Neela wrote:Somnath

There were a few posts on police reform. Would like to hear your views on that.Why is a independent police under the purview of the judiciary being equated to something as a militia?

The word "militia" was used by Amit, but I can understand where he might be coming from...It stems from your question itself, ie, "police under the purview of the judiciary"....Look at what you are suggesting, ie, that the police will report to the judiciary...Suddenly, you have the investigating executive being a "part" of the justice dispensing machinery...Ergo, the judiciary becomes, at least partly, part of the executive (mind you, police and law and order, are executive functions)...In the delicate balance of powers, suddnely the balance is turned upside down...

The instance of "police reforms" that I quoted does not look to reconstruct the police force "outside" the executive, it only looks to put in place systems "within" the executive to ensure that politicians dont interefere in day-to-day functioning...

If one looks at the narrative of some of the posters here, it would seem that everything is rotten, everyone is chor, the constitution is crap - ergo, the police should be "independent" of all this...In reality, what is required is for the police to get independence from the political executive not on matters of policy, but on matters of day-to-day functioning...Its a not-so-subtle nuance that needs to be understood..

To be sure, there are excepional cases sometimes where the police/CBI report progress directly to the courts, usually SC...But these are very very rare exceptions, and usually ones where the profile as well as vested interest of the state are optically highly correlated to those of the acused - some of the Gujarat riots cases, 2G are some examples...It cannot be a "rule", not in a Parliamentary democracy...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby amit » 20 Jun 2011 13:38

^^^^^^

Allow me to clarify my police-militia comment.

The poster Nataraja wrote this:

The way to make police independent is the same way that Lok Pal will make its investigative arm independent.


Now if you note he is equating an "independent" police force to the proposed investigative arm of the Lokpal which will be independent of the executive.

By that definition the police would also be independent of the executive that is GoI. My point is while it is acceptable to have an agency whose sole directive is to "investigate" crimes - real or alleged - independent of the GoI, as directed by the Lokpal. But is it advisable to have a pan Indian police force which is not answerable to the GoI? Heck even the Armed Forces are answerable to GoI which has to power to sack, the three service chiefs because they all report to the President of India.

Regarding the point of about the police under the judiciary, I agree with Somnath. The Indian system works - like in all major democracies - under the presumption of a separation of powers between the executive and judiciary. Giving judiciary the control of the police amounts to doing away with this separation.

And I fail to understand the rationale of this as one of the points of contention is whether judges should fall under the ambit of the Lokpal. This would imply that there's a question mark on the honesty or otherwise of at least some judges. And with that you'd like to give them the power to use and direct the police?

If you look at it, a pan-India police force outside the ambit of control of the GoI and states is a huge and powerful militia. You can't call policemen who do not report to the GoI, government employees can you? And if they are not government employees, what is a bunch of armed and trained individuals reporting to a central command authority called?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby chetak » 20 Jun 2011 13:53

Apologies for long post

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/the-guru-the-gandhian-the-organisation-man/20110613.htm

The Guru, the Gandhian, the Organisation Man
June 13, 2011 17:08 IST

Rajeev Srinivasan on how Ramdev, Hazare, and Husain are all representative of different strands in Indian society.
Click!

Baba Ramdev, Anna Hazare, and M F Husain have dominated India's [ Images ] headlines in the recent past for obvious reasons. It occurred to me that they form three basic archetypes of Indian society -- namely, the Guru, the Gandhian and the Organisation Man. You might even say, extremely roughly, that they mirror various yogas, although the cognoscenti may quibble.

The Guru represents the thread of spirituality that has been a hallmark of Indian civilization for a very long time -- indeed, all the way back to the Indus-Saraswati civilization with its arresting sculpture of the philosopher-king with eyes half-closed in meditation, and the famous seal of the yogic Pasupati in padmasana. It may well be that the ideal of the philosopher-king as personified by Marcus Aurelius had its origins in the pre-2000 BCE Indus-Saraswati.

The Gandhian is a more recent phenomenon if you look at it literally as a follower of Mahatma Gandhi [ Images ]; but if you think about it more generally, there has been a streak of Dharmic righteousness in Indian society for a very long time, at least from the time of the Reformations embodied by Gautama Buddha and Mahavira circa 500 BCE. The spirit of Dharma is expected to manifest itself in the personae of individuals who lead by example.

The Organisation Man is also new/old, and owes much to both MNCs as well as the Soviet system. These structures create highly motivated company men, whose allegiance to the company (or the party) is unquestioned, and who, in return, benefit greatly from the largesse of the grateful company/party. I am reminded of a sentence from M Mukundan's classic On the Banks of the Mahe River: "L'etat se réjouit de ton succes" (the State, ie the French State, is pleased with your success, that of a nationalist Mahe resident).

There have been Organisation Men in India before: the box-wallahs of Calcutta, the Indian Civil Service -- those who served the interests of Empire, and benefited greatly therefrom. There were also many who made fortunes as friends of John Company. But the flowering of the Nehruvian State has seen a manifold increase in the number of those who become, as it were, darlings of the Establishment. And if you step out of line, well, there is always the example of what the Soviets did to Trotsky -- they could make you a non-person. You cease to exist.

Thus you might say Baba Ramdev [ Images ] is the Guru, Anna Hazare is the Gandhian, and M F Husain is the consummate Organisation Man.

Baba Ramdev does identify with the hoary spiritual traditions of India, although he does bring in his own idiosyncrasies. For instance, the traditional Guru has been a mild, philosophical, spiritual person emphasising the syncretic, tolerant strain of meditative Indic tradition. A good example would be the other-worldly and kindly Ramana Maharshi of Tiruvannamalai, or Sri Ramakrishna of Calcutta. Ramdev is not so mellow.

That is not to say that there have not been assertive Gurus. The most prominent, of course, were Swami Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo, who did much to rekindle the spirit of Indian civilization, under withering attack by malign forces. And let us not forget the youthful Adi Sankara, he who traversed the length and breadth of the subcontinent, defeating the Buddhists in intellectual battles.

Baba Ramdev is perhaps in the mould of these robust Gurus. The fact that he is not an urban, convent-educated, deracinated, "People-Like-Us" person is both a burden and a blessing for him. It is a burden in that the urban middle classes are bemused by him: he is not a PLU and they cannot relate to him. I am indebted to Swapan Dasgupta's piece 'Revolt of the Outlander' (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110610/jsp/opinion/story_14094754.jsp) for this insight.

On the other hand, it is a blessing for Baba Ramdev because the rural middle and lower-middle classes can and do relate to him. With his rough rustic looks and demeanour, those in the hinterlands find him to be 'PLU' for them; they understand him, he is one of them.

India's urban middle classes are very clever. They have hijacked the discourse as well as the budgets of the Indian State: for instance, India alone in developing Asia over-invested in tertiary education, producing large numbers of the college-educated (although 'educated' may be too strong a term.) All the other Asians invested in primary education, ensuring that their masses would be literate and good entry-level workers. Why? Because India's urban middle classes wanted the State to subsidise the college degrees of their children, who could then seek comfortable sinecures in the West.

Similarly, the urban middle classes have arranged for poor villagers in the armed forces to be hired to die for them in futile wars, insurrections and insurgencies, while the children of the middle classes enjoy the fruits of globalisation. If there were a compulsory military draft, with their children in danger, Delhi's [ Images ] memsahibs would have solved the Communist terrorist problem and the Pakistan problem years ago. As of now, the sons of some poor Bihari mothers are massacred daily by Maoist terrorists, and said terrorists ("Gandhis with guns") are feted by the Delhi socialites.

The Organisation Man represents the ultimate victory of the urban middle classes. Many with no particular talent other than a fine nose for profit have attached themselves to the generous mammaries of the Welfare State, and have prospered. For instance, there are all these luminaries -- self-proclaimed 'eminent' historians, economists, writers, playwrights, filmmakers, etc., -- who give each other awards, while those with genuine talent are blackballed if they do not toe the company, or party, line.

An illuminating case was that of O V Vijayan, arguably the finest Indian writer of the 20th century -- a fabulist of immense range and power who shines even in comparison to the magical-realist icon Gabriel Garcia Marquez -- who was ignored and blackballed, as he made the cardinal error of apostasy: he relinquished the Marxist beliefs of his youth. And he wrote a rude novel about Jawaharlal and his courtiers. Career-limiting move.

The opposite was true with Husain. He may or may not have been a great artist -- my personal belief is that his talent lay in the high arts of self-promotion and self-aggrandisement, as in the case of a famous playwright and a famous novelist whom I am not allowed to name -- but it became very lucrative for those who owned his paintings to claim he was a Picasso. And so they did. Thus, hey presto, greatness was thrust upon him. I suspect that the biggest collections of Husain works are not with art enthusiasts, but with these entrepreneurs who had the means and the motive to talk up his stuff.

"Talent" in India is often dubious (I am reminded of The Talented Mr Ripley). There was an important officer I heard of, whose young son was reputedly a brilliant artist. Admirers thronged to buy the kid's paintings at amazing prices. Strangely, though, when the officer left office, the queue of admirers vanished rapidly too.

I am also reminded of a religious figure who didn't actually exist, but who was, through the magic of "truth by repeated assertion", turned into an actual fact, and a bountiful source of money for the cognoscenti. There was the cuttingly brilliant story The Beatified Kochappi by Ponkunnam Varki, about a manufactured 'saint'. I believe Husain was, similarly, a manufactured 'genius'.

Not surprisingly, Husain, who was toiling in well-deserved obscurity painting cinema posters for Bollywood, was 'discovered', and his net worth zoomed in tandem with the multi-billion-rupee scams that the whole country got briefly exercised about, before lapsing back into its usual apathy.

In fact, Husain has been elevated to something of a touchstone or a litmus test: you will be given or denied PLU status and an official party membership based on whether or not you believe in Husain's martyrdom, or sainthood, take your pick.

Where does this leave the Gandhian? I am afraid that archetype is on its way to the trashcan of history. In an era when the Organisation Man is supreme, the Gandhian easily gets hijacked. Even though the original Mahatma Gandhi was a marketing genius, today his acolytes are tightly controlled -- see what happened to Jayaprakash Narayan, for instance.

While Gandhians are well-meaning, decent individuals, the Organisation Man commandeers them in ten seconds flat: they pile on to the extent that the Gandhian ceases to have any personality left, and is led by the nose by the Organisation Men. The bewilderment with which Anna Hazare speaks of his campaign now is primarily because, before he knew it, the very targets of his anti-corruption drive, or their friends, have taken over his movement. Co-option has never been smoother. Hazare must be thinking to himself, with apologies to Pogo, "I have seen the Enemy, and he is us!"

Organisation Men, honed by years of fratricidal warfare to get at those mammaries, make mincemeat of the Gandhians. The latter stand no chance. You should see those cringe-inducing photos of 'civil society' members haranguing poor Hazare to understand the extent to which they browbeat the poor old Gandhi-topi-clad ones. The Organisation Man has successfully turned the Gandhian into a marketing appendage!

So, young man, forget being a Guru or a Gandhian, head to the nearest School of Organisation Men, study the usual cant, and you will be well on your way to fame and fortune! (The same applies to young women, too, by the way.)
Rajeev Srinivasan
Last edited by chetak on 20 Jun 2011 13:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby harbans » 20 Jun 2011 13:54

If you look at it, a pan-India police force outside the ambit of control of the GoI and states is a huge and powerful militia.

Absolutely. The steps suggested again by Somnath Ji are correct. This IMO is key:

it only looks to put in place systems "within" the executive to ensure that politicians dont interefere in day-to-day functioning...

That's what we see, that the steps that are required to tackle graft certainly don't require complete upheaval of the system, constitution, Dharmic or Hindu Rashtra, Chinese style authoritarianism. But small steps across ministries that ensure Political interference is kept to the minimum in day to day affairs or key allocation of spectrums or licenses etc. There should be policy frameworks laid to these institutions by the Ministry, but the allocations and kind will be done by these institutions independent of politicians. As pointed out earlier that there have been successes in the implementation os such measures.

What i see, is that people want some grand one time gesture like some magic wand waved and hey presto 'corruption' goes. Small steps taken one at a time soon cover huge ground. Continuous focus on that aspect is required.

One thing about the Lok Pal bill i see it's focused more on the powers to investigate instances of corruption. It should also have a committee that focusses on the sort of small steps that will reduce graft across ministries as mentioned by Somnath Ji. (Understanding how 'Big' these small steps really are is key.) So it not only acts as a watchdog, but also suggests and pushes for reform within the Executive. This will be useful as it serves as an external push towards complacency to change within the Executive. SO basically the LPB should be both about:

1. Being a watchdog agency
2. Being a catalyst in pushing through reforms that remove discretionary powers and help strengthen Institutions as opposed to strengthening discretionary powers of politicians in allotments of licenses, spectrums etc or maintaining a status quo on point 2 while just being point 1, a watchdog organization with some special powers.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby IndraD » 20 Jun 2011 14:22


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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nataraja » 20 Jun 2011 15:03

Moderators,

Please take note of the comments by Harbans and Arjun on this thread. The personal attacks show a complete lack of class and also demonstrate in my view, how invested in corruption they really are.

This is very reminiscent of the kind of hostility I have faced in the past in India, when I have criticized corruption or the current system in the presence of people who are hugely invested in the current system. People such as politicians, their families, big business people and their families, bureaucrats etc. The rest of Indians, the vast majority of them that I meet, I have found to be hugely supportive of my ideas, that I have recently started expressing on this forum. They too have had it upto here with this rotten system.

Let me state again, what I believe, very clearly. I think it is the ultimate, not only in patriotism, but also when it comes to humanity to :

1) Raise your voice against the current system

2) Realize that when something is broke beyond repair, you start afresh

3) And I have borrowed this from Islam, and this is one Islamic tenet I whole heartedly believe in, and I hope all Hindus believe in too, which is "that to tolerate injustice is worse than to perpetuate injustice"

4) That it is a pity that our people, who have so much potential in so many areas, being so bright, intelligent and very common sense oriented, God fearing and hard working, due to some small number of major flaws, corruption being one of them, not only cant realize our potential, but are forced to live dogs' lives in our own country

5) I do believe that because Democracy has so failed us, and I didnt cause this, but because democracy has failed us so, I am willing to make a Chinese style social contract with whoever can provide us with Chinese levels of security, economy and civic service. Do I happily do it ? No. Am I wildly ecstatic about making a social contract which will cause me to lose my freedoms, NO. But I also know where my priorities lie.

6) Yes I do believe that in the final analysis, our current system is so bad, thatI have to acknowledge if I am intellectually honest, that even the Paki governments, whose very being I despise have done better to advance their interests (twisted as they might be) than our governments have done to advance ours.

7) I again believe that after reading ALL my posts on this thread, any reasonable person can only come to the conclusion that people who are attacking me have nothing but heavy personal interest in the perpetuation of the current interest.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby somnath » 20 Jun 2011 15:27

nataraja wrote:I again believe that after reading ALL my posts on this thread, any reasonable person can only come to the conclusion that people who are attacking me have nothing but heavy personal interest in the perpetuation of the current interest.

Well, dont take yourself or the intentions of others in this forum so seriously..Thats a mistake a lot of people tend to make here IMO...If people have to peddle vested interests, a name-anonymous blog is the worst possible place to do it....

Out here, the best we can hope for is ideas swapping, and a bit of gyaan from someone with domain knowledge on certain topics...And some entertainment over flames :wink: So, stop imputing motives where none can be plausibly implied...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby archan » 20 Jun 2011 15:27


Seems like a statement made in jest. I wonder how such experienced politicians can make such loose remarks on a serious subject. She provides zero evidence and does she even know how much money the Swiss bank holds in order to know that half of it belongs to INC? what was she, watching through her third eye as the money was being transferred? is it too much to expect a half-dignified approach from a politician?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby archan » 20 Jun 2011 15:28

natraja babu, have a cold one and chillax.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Jun 2011 15:43

archan wrote:

Seems like a statement made in jest. I wonder how such experienced politicians can make such loose remarks on a serious subject. She provides zero evidence and does she even know how much money the Swiss bank holds in order to know that half of it belongs to INC? what was she, watching through her third eye as the money was being transferred? is it too much to expect a half-dignified approach from a politician?


Saar, If Senior Politicians without any evidence (expect some Hired Policeman, there are also retired Babus who make similair claims regarding Black Money) that Narendra Modi ran the Gujarat Riots- remember Mauth Ka Saudaghar remark anyone and Other claims of Divijaya Singh &Co. is Kosher, why the outrage against this, one bright person also looked at Chicken Bones and stated that is the ashes of 73 human corpses. She is just saying what her audience wants to hear.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby archan » 20 Jun 2011 15:53

^ so it is OK for some politician to make light of a critical issue because some other politicians (from the other side of the fence) did so on some other issue in the past? :)
It it ok to lie and cheat because some others have done so in the past and gotten away with it?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Jun 2011 16:43

archan wrote:^ so it is OK for some politician to make light of a critical issue because some other politicians (from the other side of the fence) did so on some other issue in the past? :)
It it ok to lie and cheat because some others have done so in the past and gotten away with it?


Question is not Ok or not OK, but in Politics the statments of Indian Politians is almost always without any sort of evidence and some cases downright lies as per consumption requirements of the audience hearing them, they will do what it requires to win votes and try and win elections.

My only Question is why hold one side to a different standard and set of rules like evidence when people like Kumaraswamy, Moily, Chidu, Rahul Ghandi, Divijay, Sibal, Renuka Chowdary &Co. and a whole lot have all been making baseless statements.

Many in India whether there is evidence or not like to Narendra Modi is guilty,others feel Jagdish Tytler is guilty, other many belive Sonia Ghandi is guilty. Many belive in Home State Dr. Artiste is Guilty, others belive Amma is guilty.

The speeches of most media men, Politicians and NGO's today have a lot of statements which is not backed by evidence.

Nobody will give a certificate to a Loosing Politician because he spoke to the Truth.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Hari Seldon » 20 Jun 2011 16:48

Some 'nationalists' have gone off on a wild goose chase in this thread and in the process made regular-joe sane nationalists look terrible by imaginary association only. Yup, quite a few of my opinions resonate with the sane nationalist types. And I'm embarassed with osme of the packeeness of display. To think that importing packee or cheeni style 'gubo-rnance' was actually championed on a BRF dhaga.... what's the world coming to?!

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby somnath » 20 Jun 2011 17:44

In the real world, things seem to be moving forward...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/broad ... s/806117/0

Slightly diffrent "spin" by both sides, but the underlying tenor seems to be more of convergence...

An important point made by Arvind K..
We told them the CVC which has 236 employees still have corrupt officials while the Delhi Metro with over 7,000 employees is run the best. There are even Indian Railways employees who are on deputation.

While there can be corrupt in Railways, they cannot be so in Delhi Metro as the system is strong there.
I spoke to Delhi Metro chief E Sreedharan this morning and he told me that they have a system in built. Even if Sreedharan leaves and if the system remains, there will be no corruption,”

Quoting with a sense of deja vu, as its somewhat similar to what I have said quite a few times... :)

Also, btw, the latest version (2.3) of the draft...
http://persmin.nic.in/Lokpal/Lokpal_Bill_Version2.3.pdf

Mostly confirms what we know from press reports...But interestingly, note the composition of the selction and search committees - hopefully all those "concerned" about "judicial partiality" should should rest assured now :wink:

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby archan » 20 Jun 2011 17:50

Hari Seldon wrote:Some 'nationalists' have gone off on a wild goose chase in this thread and in the process made regular-joe sane nationalists look terrible by imaginary association only. Yup, quite a few of my opinions resonate with the sane nationalist types. And I'm embarassed with osme of the packeeness of display. To think that importing packee or cheeni style 'gubo-rnance' was actually championed on a BRF dhaga.... what's the world coming to?!

saar we get all kinds on here... what to do onlee.. :rotfl:

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Muppalla » 20 Jun 2011 18:02

I am defintely aging. I conclude that after not able to understand this complex thread. :(


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