India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shiv » 03 Jan 2012 09:27

Viv S wrote:Well yes, but the facility's been used for assembling aircraft since 60s, from the BAC Lightning to the fairly modern Tornado, so it was probably not economical to move it elsewhere.


Completely off topic and nothing to do with you. But the reason I said it was because we have had people here who said that aircraft manufacturing should be moved out of Bangalore because the weather is cloudy and rainy on many days of the year. But in Lancashire the manufacturing process gets affected every few days because of tides. Living in Lancashire I used to see sunshine only twice a year. I find the reaction interesting. :mrgreen:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 03 Jan 2012 09:35

Actually shiv, it is not out of topic.. you bring in very important point for ToT, technology and manufacturing setup. Indian conditions and requirements are peculiarly unique.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 03 Jan 2012 09:49

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:That's quite a statement, and I'd like to elaborate: The problem with the pull of the moon messing with the alignment of your manufacturing process is indeed a significant one *particularly if you're working in machined metal*, like with the Eurofighter. By comparison, the Tejas LCA is constructed of epoxy-reinforced composites that are not machined the same way metal is, but rather, through a process known as "vacuum forming", wherein the pull of the moon should not be such a factor, owing to the inherent gravity-defying process stresses intentionally imparted with negative pressure (which would counteract a "sag" naturally, probably without laser-corrected jigs).


Its not manufactured at Warton, its assembled there. Component production including metal cutting takes place at Samlesbury.


As I understand it, the Rafale has a high proportion of composites too, whereas the Eurofigher makes more extensive use of exotic metals (that are much more expensive and difficult to machine than composites, which are 'machined' through vacuum forming processes, not slow-moving, expensive-to-operate CNC machines).


I wasn't aware of that. It was my understanding that the Eurofighter did extensively employ composites (by which I assumed the reference was to carbon composites), comprising of upto 85% by surface area.

From the site mentioned before -




Several large engineering production machines are now installed or projected to be used at Samlesbury. These include four Advanced Contouring Machines (ACM), two five-axis machining centres (FAM), an advanced 10-axis, gantry-type V4 Contour Tape Laying (CTL) machine. The levels of production accuracy required are astounding, panels and fittings have tolerances equal to 70 microns. This means that parts taken from one aircraft will fit any another, without modification, as was common practice on previous aircraft.

Key to production work at Samlesbury are two, five-axis FAMs coupled together with laser tracker systems. These machines allow the building of assembly jigs without the need to manufacture original master templates or gauges, reducing cost and increasing productivity. To ensure the jigs produced by the FAMs are indeed accurate virtual simulation has been used to validate the machining process. This facility also has three Mitsui Seiki five-axis horizontal machining centres which form part of the machining capability for smaller detail parts.

The V4 (version-4) CTL ordered in June 1999 from Cincinnati Machine of the United States is being used to automate the production of the composite structures. The core purpose of the CTL is to automatically heat and lay the thermosetting composite tape over a pre-defined shape or tool. The machine is able to cope with both flat and contoured (or combinations of both) tools enabling the complex curves and edges of various Eurofighter parts to be followed precisely. The CTL even automates the moving and positioning of tools for subsequent lay-up of the composite material. To support high lay-up speeds and large part capability the version-4 CTL provides 12.8 m X-axis longitudinal travel and 4.2 m Y-axis traverse. It is equipped with 635mm diameter reels providing 800 to 900 m of tape. The CTL should lead to improvements in quality and reduction in production times compared to older, manual lay-up methods.

Another substantial investment is a 14 tonne, 11.5 metre high column that has been installed to support a £7.5 million drilling machine in shed four at the site. The computer controlled machine will be used to automatically drill a thousand holes in each Eurofighter front fuselage. This is one of six such machines being installed in the site as part of an investment of around £35 million. This work was previously done by hand and the new system will enable much higher throughput while also producing one of the most accurate load bearing panels on any modern aircraft.




The setup for the Rafale is probably similar, though it may not be as geared for high volume production due to lower expected volumes. Either way, this would be a truly rewarding opportunity for HAL only if it can carry forward relevant sections of the technology, to other aircraft programs.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Christopher Sidor » 03 Jan 2012 14:11

Phew 100 pages and still going strong. Moderators maybe it time to archive this thread and start the 3rd edition of this thread. Hopefully by the time that will be the final edition.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 03 Jan 2012 14:31

The tech to produce virtually "seamless" panel joints was tken up ecause of stealth,then thought of as being a magic bullet in air warfare.These days,with the advances in anti-stealth (post of IRST,etc. reducing the effectivenes of stealth aircraft) tech,aircraft like the JSF when it enters service by 2019-20,will find that all its perfections in "seamless" jonts,etc., have been compromised by the passage of time and newwer tech developed.This is why we should take a pace back and view holistically what real tech we requre for the MMRCA to come with,that in my opinion,will help us with getting the LCA MK-2 into service asap,engine tech and knowhow that will enable us to design and develop a wide range of aero-engines in the future with the latest materials and alloys tech avaiable for the same,plus radar teeh and production of all components for the same and whatever weaponry and its components,missiles,their powerplant and their seekers,lus UAV/UCAV tech and partnership,so that we have a sound base for future indigenous designs of manned and unmanned aircraft.

Ulimately we must remember that we are not spending bilions to merely acquire technology to build "technology demostrators",or "concepts",as we are going to see right now at the Auto-Expo,but aircraft that will go into battle,into "harm's way" and win!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 03 Jan 2012 19:13

This day of stealth is not real stealth. Real stealth need not be based on shape and deflection alone. It can be achieved by complete focus on aerodynamics.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 04 Jan 2012 19:30

Back after a few days due to a business trip

Rafale : Analysis of the indian tender
Knowckers.org, Dec 30


[...]
One must note the specificity of the tender Indian: for reasons of domestic politics, the fight against corruption, it is sequenced in two phases clearly separated, the first purely technical and the second about the global offer. This decoupling ,also criticized by some Indian experts, implied that only the choice of the IAF has prevailed. To demonstrate the involvement of non-policy at this stage, the United States were informed of their misfortune by their military attaché in New Delhi, himself informed by the Indian military.

Omnirole fighter of 4th generation, Rafale's versatility is its major asset and perfectly fulfills the operational needs of the Indian Air Force, given the vastness of the Indian airspace. Able to fill all the roles of a fighter aircraft in one mission, it can ensure the safety of the national airspace and conduct missions outside. A trump card that could prove decisive when the withdrawal of Western forces from Afghanistan will allow Pakistan to recover the strategic depth it dreams in front of its big rival. On the other hand, planned from its conception to operate aboard aircraft carriers, it will allow India to take a qualitative leap forward in securing its maritime areas, which have become vital to the supply of raw materials to a economy bordering on double-digit growth. Technologically successful, it can carry a full range of advanced weapons, with also strategic nuclear strike thanxs to the F3 standard. Finally, its upgrade capabilities are unmatched to meet the challenge of reducing the technology gap with potential adversaries.

Moreover, the Rafale has almost always been technically and operationally ranked first in the previous tender, but it was not yet "battle proven", a label now earned by its commitments in Afghanistan and especially Libya, operation also more publicized. On the other hand, cooperation with Dassault is old: with the purchase of Mirage 2000 in the 80's
[1], India was the first export customer of Mirage 2000 and the modernization of this fleet was finalized between the two governments. The life of an aircraft like the Rafale is 40 years, New Delhi will have the same upgrade security than with the Mirage, which could be less guaranteed with the Eurofighter, the final EADS business plan presaging a medium-term withdrawal of the combat aircraft.

India at the Crossroads

Finally, bilateral relations between France and India are excellent: the strategic partnership concluded in 1998 was reiterated during the visit of Alain Juppé in October[2]. France has consistently supported India's aspirations to a seat on the UN Security council and to a better participation in international forums like G8, G20 ... Given these strengths, the denigration of the Rafale, at a crucial time when occurs the global trade negotiation, is truly amazing [she's talking of the leftist critics in France]. Talking about its past export failure provides sterile and unjustified criticism. The image of a France with a Gaullist anachronistic pride producing technology so sophisticated that nobody wants, and preferably within a national framework to be sure it's even more expensive, is totally wrong. France has not built Rafale in a European framework because its operational requirements, particularly for its aircraft carrier, were different. The Eurofighter is a money pit and has been referred bythe UK Court of Auditors with a 75% increase of its unit cost. It is currently more expensive than the Rafale! For countries like Korea and Singapore, France could not fight against the military protection that guaranteed them the power of the United States. The Anglo-Saxon influence has been pregnant for Saudi Arabia which has replaced its Tornado with Eurofighter.
Let's Hope that the Indians will understand themselves important political benefit at the image of the power of their country that would symbolize the Rafale.
Last edited by arthuro on 04 Jan 2012 19:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 04 Jan 2012 19:32

MBDA bags Euro 950 million missile deal for Indian Mirage 2000 upgrade
Defenseworld, Jan 4

India will procure 500 air-to-air missiles from French firm MBDA for IAF's Mirage 2000 aircraft fleet which are being upgraded by Dassault-Thales. The missiles are worth Euro 950 million, nearly three fourths as much as what the aircraft upgrade will cost. A Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) meeting chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh cleared the procurement of 490 MICA missiles, agency reports said quoting Indian Defence Ministry sources in New Delhi.
The missiles would be deployed on the 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft, which are already undergoing upgrades at French facilities under a Euro 1.47 billion deal signed earlier this year.
Under the deal, MBDA will have to do offsets worth 30 per cent of the deal meaning that they will have to invest 315 million Euros back in the Indian defence sector.MBDA already has a tie up with Indian government owned missile manufacturer, Bharat Dynamics Limited as the offsets will most likely be executed through this venture.


http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensen ... 428&h=MBDA bags Euro 950 million missile deal for Indian Mirage 2000 upgrade

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 363887.cms

Given the investement (Price, local manufacturing) it should be a clear incentive for the rafale...Especially when the prime minister himself approved the deal.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 04 Jan 2012 19:44

Eurofighter partner nations are willing to sell their own aircrfafts and reduce their commitments thanx to export. This could be a bad signal toward potential export customers like india. Especially when Typhoon partner nations are dragging their feet to fund the necessary upgrades.

Germany to Offer Fighters to Bulgaria~The deal is for eight second-hand Eurofighters

It is expected that during his visit to Germany at the end of January PM Boyko Borissov would receive an attractive offer for used Eurofighters, The Standart learnt. The first visit of Bulgaria’s premier for 2012 will be to Germany on January 17-18. He will meet with Chancellor Angela Merkel and during the private talks all bilateral issues will be discussed. During the meetings the details on the German offer for the fighters would be clarified. According to off-the- record information, the proposal includes training of Bulgarian pilots.

Germany is one of the four countries which manufacture Eurofighters. This is one of the most modern military aircraft in the world. The abilities of Eurofighter were demonstrated during the air show near the city of Plovdiv in September last year. In February, 2011, Bulgaria’s defense ministry asked about the bids all manufacturers of Eurofighter for the delivery of 8 fighters. EADS consortium which manufactures Eurofigheter made an offer of 80 million euro per a brand new fighter. Later on, another manufacturer of Eurofighter, Italy, made an offer of 35 million euro for a second-hand fighter.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 04 Jan 2012 21:44

The commercial/industrial situation with Eurofighter is, pardon me, simply ridiculous.

Bulgaria is considering a "fleet" of 8 of a kind, second-hand Eurofighter Typhoons? Such a small-scale procurement of such an egregiously expensive platform, makes no military sense, no commercial sense, and no industrial sense for Bulgaria. It also doesn't look good for the Italians and Germans trying to broker the deal.

This situation only speaks to corruption in defense deals, and Eurofighter partner nation's desperation to relieve themselves of an expensive obligation.

It seems to me that technologically and financially, the Eurofighter partners have bitten-off more than they now care to chew, and they're desperate that someone else should take a bite and try to swallow it down themselves. (Perhaps Tier-2 buyers can even help fund the teething process for the Typhoon!)

I don't see the French doing anything that looks nearly as desperate, and that in and of itself, says a lot to me (in terms of the commercial viability and the workability of the long-term industrial business model developed for Rafale, but sorely lacking for Eurofighter).

Yeah, I know, some Eurofighter fan is going to tell me that Rafale has no export sales and Eurofighter does. To me, that just signifies the power of some countries to nudge others in their direction, and doesn't say anything convincing about the superiority of Eurofighter, only the superiority of Eurofighter's lobbying efforts (or Saudi Arabia's desire not to be entirely beholden to the Americans).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 04 Jan 2012 21:56

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:The commercial/industrial situation with Eurofighter is, pardon me, simply ridiculous.

Bulgaria is considering a "fleet" of 8 of a kind, second-hand Eurofighter Typhoons? Such a small-scale procurement of such an egregiously expensive platform, makes no military sense, no commercial sense, and no industrial sense for Bulgaria. It also doesn't look good for the Italians and Germans trying to broker the deal.

This situation only speaks to corruption in defense deals, and Eurofighter partner nation's desperation to relieve themselves of an expensive obligation.

It seems to me that technologically and financially, the Eurofighter partners have bitten-off more than they now care to chew, and they're desperate that someone else should take a bite and try to swallow it down themselves. (Perhaps Tier-2 buyers can even help fund the teething process for the Typhoon!)

I don't see the French doing anything that looks nearly as desperate, and that in and of itself, says a lot to me (in terms of the commercial viability and the workability of the long-term industrial business model developed for Rafale, but sorely lacking for Eurofighter).

Yeah, I know, some Eurofighter fan is going to tell me that Rafale has no export sales and Eurofighter does. To me, that just signifies the power of some countries to nudge others in their direction, and doesn't say anything convincing about the superiority of Eurofighter, only the superiority of Eurofighter's lobbying efforts (or Saudi Arabia's desire not to be entirely beholden to the Americans).


I agreee. The Eurofighter programme is in deep trouble. Please note, that this has no reflection on its capabilities.

Having said that hopefully the French have not demanded too high a price. That is where they seem to run amok.

At the end of it all, lucky we are looking at life cycle costs, because an L1 can at times be much more expensive than an L2, which I surmise will be the case with the Eurofighter if it is L1.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 05 Jan 2012 04:06

arthuro wrote:Given the investement (Price, local manufacturing) it should be a clear incentive for the rafale...Especially when the prime minister himself approved the deal.


Err.. the Prime Minister usually chairs the Cabinet Committee on Security, and has to sign off on all major defence purchases. It doesn't have anything to do with his personal interest or disinterest in the deal.

Coming to the other issue - like I've mentioned before, yes the Rafale may share the MICA with the Mirage 2000, but the EF too will probably share the ASRAAM (which comes from the MBDA stables as well) with the significantly larger Jaguar fleet.

Finally, about the involvement of the MBDA - its curious that the offset requirements call for the reinvestment to be made either by the company, or by any entirely owned subsidiary.

MBDA while headquartered at Paris, is jointly owned by BAE (37.5%), EADS (37.5%) and Finmeccanica (25%). Not saying that it necessarily makes a difference, but it is indicative of industrial depth and breadth of the EF companies.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 05 Jan 2012 04:30

arthuro wrote:Eurofighter partner nations are willing to sell their own aircrfafts and reduce their commitments thanx to export. This could be a bad signal toward potential export customers like india. Especially when Typhoon partner nations are dragging their feet to fund the necessary upgrades.

Germany to Offer Fighters to Bulgaria~The deal is for eight second-hand Eurofighters


There's a recession on. Everyone is strapped for cash. UK is trying to implement a major austerity drive while France and Germany are committed to bailing out half the Eurozone. It doesn't mean that the current state for affairs, is doomed to carry on forever.

India needs to look at the commitment to the aircraft by UK and Germany over the lifetime of the aircraft i.e. the next 35 years, not just the next 5. Its quite evident that the UK at least has traditionally had a strong emphasis on upgrades (compare the Jaguar's service in the RAF and AdA for example). And the EF offers the IAF everything that it requires for the immediate future, with CFTs as a possible exception (probably becoming available in the latter half of the decade). In the future you could see HAL collaborating with the new EADS and/or BAE research centres in India, for further development on the Eurofighter among other things.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 05 Jan 2012 22:11

MBDA while headquartered at Paris, is jointly owned by BAE (37.5%), EADS (37.5%) and Finmeccanica (25%). Not saying that it necessarily makes a difference, but it is indicative of industrial depth and breadth of the EF companies.


MBDA is mainly french and british. The 37.5% stake is controled by the french part of EADS just like the stake in Dassault Aviation. The headquarter is in France, the CEO is french, half of the employees are in France etc... Last week the CEO said on radio that a Rafale deal is the priority of the group for 2012. He also said that France is the biggest customer of MBDA... MBDA is also in negociation to buy the weapons activities of Sagem (Safran ) and Thales and are waiting for french gov approval (or not). Thales may take a part of the share capital of MBDA in the month to come.

Be carefull also to the voting rights : they may be different from the proportion of the capital held by a shareholder. For example France and Germany controls 85% of EADS, about 42% each (for only 22% of the capital) because the floating capital is not allow to vote and has no acces the executive board of EADS. That also explain why the actual disagreements between France and Germany are very dangerous for the company.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 06 Jan 2012 11:06

kelesis wrote:
MBDA while headquartered at Paris, is jointly owned by BAE (37.5%), EADS (37.5%) and Finmeccanica (25%). Not saying that it necessarily makes a difference, but it is indicative of industrial depth and breadth of the EF companies.


MBDA is mainly french and british. The 37.5% stake is controled by the french part of EADS just like the stake in Dassault Aviation. The headquarter is in France, the CEO is french, half of the employees are in France etc... Last week the CEO said on radio that a Rafale deal is the priority of the group for 2012. He also said that France is the biggest customer of MBDA... MBDA is also in negociation to buy the weapons activities of Sagem (Safran ) and Thales and are waiting for french gov approval (or not). Thales may take a part of the share capital of MBDA in the month to come.

Be carefull also to the voting rights : they may be different from the proportion of the capital held by a shareholder. For example France and Germany controls 85% of EADS, about 42% each (for only 22% of the capital) because the floating capital is not allow to vote and has no acces the executive board of EADS. That also explain why the actual disagreements between France and Germany are very dangerous for the company.


Its similar to EADS yes. French and German disagreements come into play when the govts. are fronting money for weapons development and therefore need to fight to retain maximum development and production workshare. That doesn't apply when its expanding in India, because every stockholder in the company stands to benefit.

Which is why the French government cannot block the EADS from registering its Airbus business in India under offsets. Its also why Louis Gallois despite being a political appointee is legally required to uphold the financial interests of his shareholders. For example -

The European Aeronautic Defence Space Company (EADS) is preparing a "serious offer" to supply 60 Eurofighter jets to the United Arab Emirates, boss Louis Gallois told Tuesday's Financial Times.

http://www.france24.com/en/20111115-ead ... ghters-uae

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 06 Jan 2012 12:51

Viv,
Gallois and EADS were not aware of the Typhoon offer to AUE and learnt it by the press...

http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretdefense/L-Eurofighter-aux-Emirats-cachoteries-anglaises-actualise_a430.html

France can block any offset of EADS if it is not in its own interest. EADS is a political company, for example Germany wants to sell the Daimler's stake to the state but according to the shareholder agreement France can buy it in priority... If France doesn't want to waive its priority right, it will control EADS. Germany will have to negociate with french gov... In addition France will not allow eurocopter, astrium or airbus offsets in a Typhoon deal if it is against its interests. Indian gov is well aware of this and that is why I think the offset package of EF is not so good.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 06 Jan 2012 18:16

The Rafale in the home stretch to win the Indian market
la Tribune, Jan 6


New Delhi will have next week all the elements to choose which of the French aircraft or the Eurofighter, will equip its Air Force.

From next week, the timing of the tender for the sale of 126 combat aircraft (M-MRCA project) with an amount initially estimated at $ 12 billion will accelerate. Started November 4, 2011 after the opening of envelopes containing the Dassault and Eurofighter consortium ( EADS , BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica) commercial tender, the long and tedious work of synthesis of the Indian Air Force (Air Force) on the two bids submitted, should be completed next week. India buys not only a fighter but also the MCO (operational maintenance) and support equipment. The cost of ownership - the costs of combat aircraft throughout their lives, including in terms of fuel - should be decisive for the contract now valued at $ 20 billion and called "the mother of all deals ". A report should be sent without a break to the Indian Defence Minister, who will send it too Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

One country against four

Policy makers will decide based on the operational side of both units and commercial proposal presented by the two manufacturers ... or not.

"The Rafale is supported by a country, Eurofighter by four", said a source familiar with the matter. In this respect, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, wrote last month on behalf of the four European partners in the Eurofighter consortium (Germany, Britain, Italy and Spain) to Indian Prime Minister to encourage him to choose the Eurofighter, which has yet experienced two failures, one in Oman (in front of F-16 Lockheed Martin) and one in Switzerland where the Gripen has won (the Rafale was also nominated). It also encounters difficulties in Saudi Arabia, Riyad being unhappy about the aircraft delivered.

For now, it seems that the Rafale keeps an operational advantage over the Eurofighter, the Indian Air Force put the french aircraft ahead of its European rival. However, it is the ink bottle case with the commercial offerings. Ideally, the Rafale should be cheaper because in previous tenders, its price was, on average, between 10% to 15% cheaper than the Eurofighter. Unless, as suggested by some industrial partners in the Rafale, the Eurofighter program's competitors have made great efforts on the price of the unit to remain competitive. Because according to Indian rules, the lowest bidder is deemed the winner.


http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... ndien.html

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Tanaji » 06 Jan 2012 23:37

We are at 100 pages so, please continue here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6301

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