India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

[Kanson]

IR signature of Raffy is low compared to Tiffy and Raptor. I too believed Rafale as the favourite. No more I compare the two offers in terms of tech capabilities alone. India is on threshold of developing SPECTRA type EW systems. What is more important is co development and partnerships in various fields through this.

[Viv S]

viv s,

The article you mention was written by Jon Lake a BAE lobbyist and was never reported anywhere else. Bottom line is that the typhoon did not make the cut after singaporean technical evaluation. The rafale and the F15K did. None of them were fully developped and the rafale was not even operational in the French AdA.

Didn't see his name on the report but lets assume its true. Why is what the article said, lobbyism, but the opinion of a Rafale pilot and Dassault CEO, fair and balanced?

How was the F-15K not developed? AFAIK the Rafale that entered service with the AdA in 2005 was delivered to an F2 standard unlike the EF which was still in the T1 production phase. Frankly if we're talking bottomlines - notwithstanding allegations of political pressure and arm-twisting, the Rafale didn't make the cut either - ergo the F-15K is a better aircraft than the Rafale?

[arthuro]

some corrections : the rafale entered in service in the Armée de l'air mid-2006 in the F2 standard. The rafale proposed to Singapore was an evolved version with an AESA radar so far from being ready at that time.

As for JL article who was indeed unsigned when published it comes with less credibility than a two high profile persons who speak in the open press and put their name and reputation on the line. Facts speak for them : The typhoon was ejected at the first stage of the competition before the F15 and the rafale as they successfully passed the tech eval.

The distortion in the article comes from the fact that in JLake articles the good story is always for the typhoon and never for the competition. You could find other nice stories in favor of the rafale and F15 if you really wanted and then the general opinion will believe "wow etc...". That's how you create an "anchoring bias" in people opinion. The idea that the whole tech eval would rely on a single scenario is over-simplistic (if ever true) what about others who were more favorable to the rafale or F15 ? JL simply purposely ignored them giving a bias highlight of the technical evaluation.

Now look at the recent swiss evaluation which may be regarded as the most rigorous and transparent evaluation by many...The rafale ended as the winner of the technical evaluation despite the fact that air superiority was the most weighted criteria (40%). Not that bad for the rafale...It always came on top in technical evaluation from Korea to the swiss one (close second after the F35 in the dutch evaluation to be precise).

[Nick_S]

Technical evaluation is over but the fact that rafale has always beaten the typhoon in technical evaluations (Korea, Singapore, Dutch, Brazil, and recently Switzerland) stands for a reason.

Superior agility, superior range, superior multirole capabilities, superior weapon system (data fusion) superior FCS superior EW system and lower RCS and SC are the main reasons.

Those were from french reports... i would take that with a heavy bucket of salt.

EF is actually more agile than Rafale at higher speeds and at higher altitudes while comparable at lower speeds ands altitude. Anyway, WVR battles are highly dependent on pilot skill and training, so its not an easy comparison.

The only things Rafale beats EF is in now is a more advanced certified A-G weapons fit and a longer ferry range.

[arthuro]

Nick-S,

Not french reports, only foreign ones apart for singapore evaluation. Just a few random examples :

for the swiss evaluation :

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/201 ... avori.html
http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Ei ... y/19950976
http://ing.dk/artikel/122131-fransk-kam ... -i-schweiz
http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/201 ... avori.html
http://www.aeroplans.fr/Aviation-milita ... afale.html
http://www.lepost.fr/article/2010/06/14 ... afale.html

[...]Jane's has learnt from Swiss sources close to the official evaluator , Armasuisse, that the Rafale was narrowly in the lead, followed by the Typhoon and then the Gripen[...]

multiple sources post n° #511 and n° #513
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... 19&page=18

Korea :

“The Rafale took the lead (built by French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation) by a narrow margin in the first stage of the assessment, but considering interoperability and the alliance between Korea and the U.S., we have finally chosen the F-15K (built by the American company Boeing).”

http://english.donga.com/srv/service.ph ... 1092807678

another one :

"Dassault's combat aircraft Rafale was rated as "excellent" in all five categories, while its strongest rival, Boeing's F-15 fighter, reached the standard in only two categories.

The Boeing fighter received "excellent" in reliability and supportive combat capability, while Eurofighter, produced by a European consortium, won the top grades in the general function and reliability categories.

In the categories of weapons and electronic warfare capability, only Rafale earned the "excellent" grade, according to the officials.

Russia's Su-35 took fourth place with "ordinary" rates in all five categories.

again :

Korea to Buy 20 Foreign Fighter Jets Next Year

(Source: Korea Overseas Information Service; dated Jan. 18, web-posted Jan. 17, 2007)

Having ordered 40 Boeing F-15Ks, South Korea has now confirmed plans to order 20 new multi-rôle fighters in 2008. Korea has decided to choose a foreign contractor through open bidding to supply 20 "next-generation" fighter jets in the coming years, a project to cost around 2.3 trillion won ($2.4 billion), defense officials said Wednesday (Jan. 17).

The project follows Seoul's contract with the U.S. company Boeing Co. in 2002 to buy 40 F-15K jets for $4.6 billion. Eighteen jets have been delivered so far, with the remainder to be introduced by next year.

"We plan to draw up a detailed plan for the procurement project next month and distribute the proposal in March, with the aim of signing a contract by February next year," said Major General Kim Deuk-hwan, director-general for aircraft programs at the Defense Acquisition Program Administration.

The decision was made at a defense procurement project committee meeting presided over by Defense Minister Kim Jang-soo at the Defense Ministry building in central Seoul.

Korea has pushed for the purchase of 120 next-generation fighter jets as part of its blueprint for overhauling the military's structure and drastically increasing combat capability by 2020.

"It is a plan to secure 20 highly efficient multipurpose fighter jets to actively counter threats by neighboring countries under the National Defense Reform 2020 project," Kim said. "We will introduce the aircraft between 2010 and 2012."

He indicated that Lockheed Martin's F-35 model will be ruled out, saying the Air Force needs double-engine fighters.

"There are a lot of differences between the single-engine F-35 and what our military needs, including weapons capacity and flight scope," Kim said.

Korean officials expect the introduction of a foreign model to help the country learn the core technology needed for the designing and manufacturing of advanced aircraft, as well as contributing to the development of the domestic aerospace industry and the creation of jobs.

In 2002, Seoul chose Boeing's F-15K, probably in consideration of the long-standing military alliance with the United States, giving a new lifeline to Boeing's then-sputtering F-15 production line in Missouri. The French-built fighter Rafale reportedly beat the F-15K by a narrow margin in the technical phase of evaluation. Two other fighters, the Russian Sukhoi Su-35 and the Typhoon from European consortium Eurofighter, also joined in the competition.
as for maneuverability the rafale is superior in most of the flight envelop.

and again :

DATE : 20/03/07
SOURCE : Flight International

Typhoon to battle F-15K in Seoul
By Siva Govindasamy

Boeing and Eurofighter go head-to-head again for 20-aircraft deal, as Dassault and Sukhoi withdraw interest.

Boeing's F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon are to contest the $2.4 billion next phase of South Korea's F-X fighter contest, with potential rivals Dassault and Sukhoi having decided against entering the second round of bidding.

Officials from Boeing and the Euro¬fighter consortium at¬tended a compulsory presentation conducted by South Korea's Defence Acquisition Programme Administration (DAPA), which spelt out Seoul's requirements for the 20-aircraft deal. Dassault and Sukhoi did not send representatives.

"Dassault said in 2002 that it won't take part in future South Korean competitions, and it appears to be keeping to its word. Sukhoi probably realised that it had little chance as well," says a Seoul-based industry source. "The Koreans will be relieved that Eurofighter is still keen as they want a competition, as opposed to awarding a single-source contract."

The new requirement is being opened up to competition even though Boeing won a contract to supply the South Korean air force with 40 F-15Ks in 2002, plus 40 options. The F-15 was chosen over the Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Sukhoi Su-35, although the Rafale came out on top in the evaluation.

The decision hardened perceptions that South Korea is biased towards procuring US military hardware, and prompted Seoul to launch an open bid for the second phase of its contest. However, in a possible indication of its platform preference, the DAPA's K-X requirement calls for the acquisition of an "F-15 class" aircraft.
Eurofighter's confidence is based on its sales record and the fact that the aircraft has now proven its capabilities, says the industry source. Around 100 are now operational with launch users Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK, and deals to export a further 90 to Austria and Saudi Arabia are progressing. "It [Eurofighter] is determined to break into the Asian market, and the fact that it had more representatives at the meeting than any other company shows how seriously it is taking this," the source notes.

Boeing and Eurofighter must submit their proposals for the K-X deal by 18 April, with a contract to be signed around February 2008 and deliveries to occur in the 2010-12 timeframe.

Dutch evaluation :
Dutch evaluation:

http://www.dedefensa.org/article.php?art_id=84

"A surprising and important detail had been made public: the technological and operational evaluation by the RNAF of the three candidates. According to the RNAF criteria, the JSF had been graded 6.97; the Rafale, 6.95; and the Eurofighter Typhoon, 5.85. "

http://bruxelles2.over-blog.com/article-22711204.html

Singapore :

"Moussez said that in dogfight exercises, the Rafale had outflown F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations "we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon."
Yet it lost to the F-15 in competitions to sell to South Korea and Singapore. Moussez said it was outflanked in the former case on political grounds and in the latter case on costs, noting that the dollar had depreciated 30 percent over the period of the Singapore competition."

Dassault CEO :

The Typhoon, whose development also started in 1998, was fielded as an air defence aircraft in December 2005. This fighter will not have a true omnirole version (enabling, for instance, to lift and fire a cruise-missile) before the next decade.
Ever since the beginning of the decade, the Rafale has always been deemed superior to the Eurofighter« Typhoon » by the countries concerned (i.e. the Netherlands, South Korea and Singapore), whenever it has been in competition (or has been submitted to comparative evaluations) with this rival. In the Netherlands, for instance, the Rafale’s score differed by a scarce 2% from that of a « paper JSF ». A number of elements enables us to tackle the future with confidence, such as the imminent fielding, in the Air Force, of Rafale upgraded to F2 omnirole standard, the fact that a number of foreign experts recognize that the Rafale offer is superior to the Typhoon offer, and the doubts remaining about the F-35/JSF programme.

for now each time the rafale encountered the typhoon in technical evaluation the result was rafale > typhoon. Just like in most encounters between the two during exercises :

post N°1513
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ws/page101
post N°1372
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ews/page92
post N°69
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... 583&page=3

[Nick_S]

6 Mirage F1 and one Super-Étendard made emergency landings during the
Lybian ops ... how does that relate to the Rafale please, my charming noob?*

Ah, you like to ignore bad news on the Rafale... how typical of fanboys. Here you go:

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vi ... ing.373248

Rest of your post is BS as usual. Luckily I can put you on the ignore list.

Cheers.

[Viv S]

---------------------------------------
Viv_S, you said :

The only way the IAF will consent to the Kaveri replacing the M88 is if its performance far exceeds the M88. Both the Tejas and eventually the AMCA need an engine ideally in the 100kN+ region. So its unlikely either of them will ever share a engine with the Rafale.

But Alain Habrard, Directeur de la Branche moteurs militaires de Snecma said :
/ Snecma's military motor sector director /

Le M88 est conçu pour générer une famille très large de dérivés pour avion de combat : avec le même corps HP, il peut conduire à des dérivés à 9 T pratiquement dans le même encombrement et jusqu’à 12 T avec un système BP plus conséquent.

http://www.stratisc.org/Moteurs_10.htm

If you don't mind, I'll trust him on that.

Traditionally you're supposed to post a translation with that.

The M88 has a wet thrust rating of 75kN today, so you'll have to excuse me if I approach the possibility of a 120kN derivative with a degree of skepticism.

But nothing says that the Kaveri or its successor need to be te same as the M-88.
It would be nice for India to equip many fighters with a locally ( co- )produced
engine but it only makes sense if the Rafale is chosen which is not yet done.

Well nothing says the successor to the Kaveri needs to be co-developed with the Snecma either. GE, P&W or Eurojet would do just as well, five to ten years down the line. The Kaveri as it stands today is not going to replace the M88 on the Rafale, and future GTRE products could be suitable for the EF as well as the Rafale.

The AASM is an expensive piece of kit.

That does things others can't, hence the price.
It all depends on the use made of it. If there is no need for it,
use LGB, that's what the Armée de l'Air does, did in Lybia.

Depends. Do the things it does, fall into the category of a staple air to ground mission or a niche role? Point is, the existence of AASM itself is hardly an incentive to opt for the Rafale.

Not too challenging and could have? sounds antinomic

Why? Just because the project is not very technically challenging doesn't mean you have to pursue it. You develop an IR-MRAAM if you need it, not because it can be done.

The high off boresight of the MICA IR coupled with the HMCS called for
in the MMRCA should prove quite efficient.

As should the ASRAAM or IRIS-T.

About the exercises value, ok no problem, Let's be fair and ditch them all then.

Agreed.

This remains :

In simply gauged terms of hardware the EF is clearly superior - higher agility, higher speed, comparable or lower RCS in a loaded configuration, better AESA radar and capable of supercruise with stores.

That is an opinion that has no basis in reality.
higher agility, laughable at best, please provide a source

You may disagree, but I doubt if anyone else 'laughed' at that assertion.

In the absence of specific figures on the acceleration or STR, I suppose the only confirmed statistic is the EF's higher t/w ratio.

higher speed, sure, as per need for high altitude AtoA

Given the number of Flankers to north, I'd say the need is pretty darned pressing.

comparable or lower RCS, you must be joking?? please provide a source

Not joking in the least but you're right about source at least. Most sources French, British or otherwise are empirical. There's no objective way to compare the RCS of both aircraft especially in a loaded configuration, so lets call the RCS comparison a moot point until reliable data is actually released.

better AESA, do you realize how untrue and borderline ridiculous that is?
Present, no AESA for each, next year AESA for Rafale not for EF so your
sentence is self-defeating, from 2015 : then Captor over RBE2 in size of
antenna and so range IF you discount power source and modes which one
should not.

Ridiculous huh? What bearing does the in-service date of the system have on the performance of the system? Coming to systems themselves, the Captor-E will have a much higher power output, a greater FoV, and a dedicated EW channel which clearly proves its the better system on basis of the information available so far. Now if you know something about the 'power sources and modes' that I don't, please share.

But next post comes at it again :

put a combat payload on each aircraft and all the sawtooth edges wouldn't prevent any perceived RCS edge from evaporating (at least partially because of the EF's recessed weapon stations).

Please explain to me how those recessed weapons station can reduce the RCS
of a plane laden with LGBs under wing pylons?

How do much do sawtooth edges reduce the RCS of a plane laden with LGBs under wing pylons?

Its evident I'm talking about reducing the relative RCS not turning the EF into a stealth aircraft. Its also blatantly obvious that a twelve foot missile protruding out of the aircraft's body, suspended on an eight foot pylon on a six foot by two foot hardpoint will have greater impact on the RCS than the same missile partially recessed into the airframe.

On orders for EF :
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... ain/68247/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/ ... 4Y20111018
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03 ... print.html
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4768387

The number of Rafale to be ordered is still up to initial predictions
and rearrangements of Tranche numbers mean very little since the
Raffy fleet grows in standards, not Tranches.
Explained another way, reducing numbers in a Tranche makes money
available now for upgrades that are then carried over to the next one.
A Rafale is a Rafale and all of them are F3 standard as all of them will
be F3+ and F4 and so on.

What does any of that have to do with the MRCA? The point I was making was that the Rafale's (expected future) export success doesn't have anymore relevance than the EF's three times larger confirmed order book. None of the other competitions are truly comparable to the Indian order, especially in terms on involving the domestic industry.

[arthuro]

Of course each tender is different but the fact that the rafale won all technical evaluations versus the typhoon to date shows that you underrates it and that you should not be that confident in that area. Anyway both made the cut so the discussion should revolves around commercial offers.

Offset package were cleared for both so if it is really about L1 now I am reasonably confident that the rafale is in the best position to win. Just look at the difference of price in the swiss competition ! The difference is quite considerable...

[Taygibay]

@Nick_S

Wow, mate, you really have a problem.
I did not know of that for the very simple
reason that it is a one-source account.
It was transcribed dutyfully in Rafale News
but neither the MinDef nor anyone else.
Not to be found in/on French net, etc.
All other on the web source to it, etc.
Rest assured that I would not accept a
monosource for the Tyffie either BTW.

This being said, the fact is true that 7 flights
of French planes landed in Malta during the
Lybian ops. Which people with a racist/dumb/
monolithic view will link to say bad maintenance
while those with a tad of thought will take as
possibly using more stringent rules on security,
going for max time on patrol and short on petrol
more often etc.

Even if it was accorded, would that disqualify the
Rafale from being a good fighter and a reasonable
choice for the MMRCA? Would not the fact that the
RAF relied more on the Tornado still play then?

Your tone and remarks :

Those were from french reports... i would take that with a heavy bucket of salt.

tell me enough about you, my poor lad.
Go ahead and use that ignore list please.

[Taygibay]

@ Viv_S

Translation : "The M88 is conceived to generate a very large family of derivatives for fighter aircrafts :
with the snme HP core, it can lead to derivatives of 9T in almost the same volume and up to 12T with
a more consequent LP system."

Well nothing says the successor to the Kaveri needs to be co-developed with the Snecma either. GE, P&W or Eurojet would do just as well, five to ten years down the line. The Kaveri as it stands today is not going to replace the M88 on the Rafale, and future GTRE products could be suitable for the EF as well as the Rafale.

Nothing in my post contradicts that in any way, mate?
Hence :

but it only makes sense if the Rafale is chosen which is not yet done.

.

The AASM is a proper weapon with many qualities from the distance it travels ( 50+kms )
to the up to vertical angle that it can adopt on the target and off-boresight range.
It is expansive but if you would not buy a Rafale to get it, it does not hurt.

The remarks on the MICA are just spinning, yes need is the factor but ability is not there
until done and yes AMRAAM & Iris are fine too, as I was answering you so I just said that
MICA is fine too and all that. Covered.

Higher trust to weight ratios does favor the Typhoon ...
not that it constitute proof of agility in a real way.
Drag, active surfaces, controls .... you know.

The Flanker remark is good enough to keep for last.

When CEASAR is in production, we can talk of what it does.
For now, it should be better than the RBE2 in range for the antenna size.
That I recognize flatly, simple physics from wavelenght covered
to MMIC sizing and spacing.
As far as modes and power sources, no source no certainty
that goes for you as it does for me.

600 is not 3 times 294 but what the fact that nations building a plane together
pile on top one of another to buy less of it should be of relevance to the MMRCA
as to any competition where such a plane is ordered.
And BTW, the FX-2tender is very near to India's MMRCA in amount of ToT
and importance of it. Of course it does not tell any ill of the EF since it was not
involved.


Coming back to it, your remark about the Flankers is excellent.
The MMRCA depends on the needs of the IAF first & foremost.
IF THE IAF wants more Air Interdiction out of the MMRCA than
it does true multirole and versatility, then no problem, the EF
should be the first choice.
Otherwise ...

I did ask many times if such a clear job description was available.


Good night all, Tay.

[Viv S]

some corrections : the rafale entered in service in the Armée de l'air mid-2006 in the F2 standard. The rafale proposed to Singapore was an evolved version with an AESA radar so far from being ready at that time.

What about the Marine nationale? Hasn't it operating Rafales since 2001?

With regard to the Singapore competition - the first deliveries were expected in 2009, how could an evolved version with an AESA ever have been feasible in that timeline? AFAIK an AESA radar was never a requirement, or the Rafale wouldn't have been shortlisted. An evolved air to ground capability on the other hand was a requirement and the EF's development timelines weren't suitable to the RSAF (the same doesn't apply to the IAF).

As for JL article who was indeed unsigned when published it comes with less credibility than a two high profile persons who speak in the open press and put their name and reputation on the line. Facts speak for them : The typhoon was ejected at the first stage of the competition before the F15 and the rafale as they successfully passed the tech eval.

Hehe. Brother, a Rafale pilot and the chairman of Dassault will never be acceptable as completely objective and unbiased observers, regardless whether they're speaking on-the-record or off-the-record. Think of it as a peculiarity of modern society or a failing of human nature, but that's the truth.

Facts also say: the F-15SG won, so apparently its superior to both the Rafale and Eurofighter.

The distortion in the article comes from the fact that in JLake articles the good story is always for the typhoon and never for the competition. You could find other nice stories in favor of the rafale and F15 if you really wanted and then the general opinion will believe "wow etc...". That's how you create an "anchoring bias" in people opinion. The idea that the whole tech eval would rely on a single scenario is over-simplistic (if ever true) what about others who were more favorable to the rafale or F15 ? JL simply purposely ignored them giving a bias highlight of the technical evaluation.

I'm still wondering how you know about him authoring the article without a byline.

Now look at the recent swiss evaluation which may be regarded as the most rigorous and transparent evaluation by many...The rafale ended as the winner of the technical evaluation despite the fact that air superiority was the most weighted criteria (40%). Not that bad for the rafale...It always came on top in technical evaluation from Korea to the swiss one (close second after the F35 in the dutch evaluation to be precise).

Perhaps we should also carry out a rigorous and transparent evaluation of who the 'many' are.

Trouble is the news reports about such evaluations should always be taken with a pinch of salt or you'll be left with a heap of contradictions. Case in point -

The Eurofighter, followed closely by Rafale, "came closest" to meeting the 643 technical attributes specified by India during the long-drawn field trials held by IAF test pilots both in India and abroad under different weather conditions.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... t-iaf-test

[Philip]

Price is going to be the deciding factor,as we said some time ago.Both aircraft are very close in performance,perhaps we will have an easier time integrating the Rafale having already been operating M-2000s from the '80s.EF deliveries have a Q mark against it,as the Saudi deal has to be serviced first.Reg. offsets,I think the French have their nose ahead here as they already have so many JVs with us-helo and aero-engines,missiles,avionics for Flankers,Scorpenes,(N-reactors too!)etc.With this rich Indo-French experience with us,all things being almost equal aircraft capability wise,I would go for the Rafale.The transition from the M-2000-also being upgraded makes sense too.If you ask me,the deal is for the French to lose!

[Nick_S]

EF video from Discovery Channel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFBn1qNs ... re=related

[SaiK]

what if on nov 4th opening of the tender surprisingly points to a tie on L2 /pricing? will we split the order?

[arthuro]

viv s

The rafale M entered in service in 2001 in the F1 standard which was far too match the F2 that entered in service in 2006. It had only limited AtA capabilities and no link 16. The very old F8 crudader needed an urgent replacement. The F1 standard is so different to other rafale that the 11 aircrafts built in that standard are stored since several years waiting for a full and costly retrofit. The point stands that the rafale was far from being operational in a multirole form especially with an AESA radar during the singaporean evaluation.

As for JLake he admitted being the author of this article on keypublishing. Not surprising as a former flight global journalist. He wrote a nice book on the typhoon by the way that you can buy in a librairy.

Fact is the Typhoon did not even make the cut in the singaporean evaluation unlike the F15 and rafale. The second round is about price and offsets just like in india. Rafale lost on price due to the depreciation of the dollar of about 30%. When a CEO or an officer speaks in the open press it is far more credible. Besides you can cross check their information (korea and dutch evaluation) with the link I gave which clearly reinforce their credibility.

as for india you can find contradicting sources :

“Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,” sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.

http://www.asianage.com/india/rafale-ty ... -merit-850

So clearly the rafale bested the typhoon in every technical evaluation. We can add that the Typhoon was not even selected in the brazilian final round competition (SU35 and Typhoon out in the first round).

that's 5-0 for the rafale vs the typhoon (Korea, singapore, Dutch, switzerland, Brazil) and 6-0 if you count india. Must say something ?

[chackojoseph]

Korea, singapore, Dutch, switzerland, Brazil : Did it compete in the Mid range? What were the parameters?

[VinodTK]

India to purchase 126 fighter jets worth 12 billion

A source for the French firm told on the condition of anonymity that it was unclear how quickly the winning bid to supply the 126 jet fighters would be announced.

The source said it would reveal its bid on November 4.

“It could be settled in one day or it could take months if the (price) gap is narrow,” the source said. The Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon were shortlisted for the contract in April, beating fierce competition from US giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

[Singha]

typhoon is a superb airframe but hamstrung by the fact many of its capabilities are way in the future while available in rafale for years. the sight of RAF tiffys having to operate in pairs with tornado GR4s in Libya to make up for unspecified 'shortcomings' like lack of training for a2g is not a good one in 2011. so I am sure there are many tickmarked rows in eval sheets where rafale is a Tick while Tiffy is "tbd in trancheX in 2018"

a tale of a good basic platform ruined by lack of funding and user interest...always trying to defer, sell off quotas and weasel out of commitments.

[Taygibay]

Mon dieu, quelle source!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xY04ib_ ... re=related



and two oldies :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kqR1H3R ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzkXrRlG ... re=related

Good day all.

[Karan M]

Jon Lake is an ok journo - but loses all sense of objectivity when it comes to anything regarding the Typhoon vs anything else. Relying on his statements vis a vis the Rafale would be folly.

Singha nailed it IMO - the Rafale is a fairly integrated platform today, and also thanks to its payload arrangements - a better striker than the Typhoon (the latter cannot carry as much external fuel as the Rafale can, the landing gear gets in the way). Critical IMO as the IAF badly needs a plane with as much persistence as possible in an era of highly mobile, time sensitive targets.

To understand what the Rafale brings to the fight - I'd refer to these two links:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-334383/
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6792092

OTOH, the Typhoon's critical advantage is its larger radar. This is of critical importance vs low/reduced RCS targets like the J-20 in development. Detecting a JSF at around 59 km in its AESA version.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/na ... 97236.html

This is arguably the sole failing of the Rafale. Rest wrt supercruise, slightly higher top speed, acceleration are but marginal advantages, and with Meteor, EW etc thrown into the mix, plus considering the recent EF-Rafale exercises, the advantages are not that obvious and the Rafale can hold its own.

Hard choice between the two, but the Rafale will be available for combat ops faster as its already fairly matured. This is a plus by itself. EADS may offer more offset capabilities which is a long term plus for Indian aerospace.

Whichever the IAF chooses though, it will boost IAF power appreciably.

189 aircraft are (IMO) a given, considering the IAF fleet requirements. With 270 Su-30 MKIs, 189 MMRCAs, 160 LCAs, plus the assorted upgraded Jaguars, MiG-29s and Mirage 2000's - the IAF will be a force to be reckoned with. Add the 214 FGFAs & in future, the AMCA - and things get better.

The PAF will effectively be reduced to a second rung "defensive AF" once the IAF modernization kicks into high gear & we should have enough to deter the PLAAF as well.

Need of the hour now is to accelerate local weapons development so we have substantial stocks to use liberally. The Sudarshan is a good start, but more the better.

[member_20033]

I am a adherent reader of Bharat Rakshak since last one year. I am a novice in this field and have got most of my information only form BR site. I have few questions in mind. would be great if someone can shed more light on them.

I read the comment that French said the difference in price would be 60%. Can this be because the French had already billed a part of cost for Rafael in the Jaguar upgrade, which gives them ability to quote very low price compared to Typhoon.

Wont it be easy for India to manage a single country (France) compared to managing 4 countries which have opposed India's nuclear ambition and have constantly supporting Kashmir issue. Who knows what will happen in future and they may find any reason to stop the supply of spares to India.

Looking at the current financial crisis is Europe, Isn't it possible for China to get European military technology by paying them few billions Euro's in bailout money.

[Will]

Whichever one is chosen India should tie them down to some major joint development of an AESA radar and a combat aircraft engine with joint holding of the IPR.

[vasu_ray]

Quote from the article from Karan's links,

"LOW-LEVEL RIDE

From medium level, I descended to low level and engaged the autopilot and autothrottle into covert terrain-following mode along our pre-planned mission route at 450kt/500ft above ground level (for noise abatement), first over the sea and then over the rugged terrain south-west of Arles.

The covert mode used a GPS database, but it can also use TF Radalt or the RBE2 TFR mode as back-up. Low-level ride was excellent in the gusty Mistral conditions, as was the accuracy of the TF profile followed by the aircraft over the semi-mountainous terrain, including flying towards sharply rising cliffs. The "ground watch" system painted a constantly updated escape profile floor in the HUD. With the TF engaged, Nino explained to me some more of the "data fused" symbology in the tactical HLD and altered the flight planned route and the time over target, which was then followed by the autopilot and autothrottle in speed mode."

How does the above terrain avoidance system on Rafale compare with the TERPROM on Typhoon? does the Rafale fly below the cliff height and then zoom up to cross over?

There was an interesting story of shifting sands in the middle east that the low flying Rafale pilots had to cope up with

[Cain Marko]

The only way the IAF will consent to the Kaveri replacing the M88 is if its performance far exceeds the M88. Both the Tejas and eventually the AMCA need an engine ideally in the 100kN+ region. So its unlikely either of them will ever share a engine with the Rafale.

You never know what road M88/Kaveri - AMCA/Rafale development might take Viv, point is there are plenty of signs in case of Rafale - Kaveri - Snecma. No such noises from the EF side whatsoever. If not anything else, at least an option to explore (at this point in time anyways), something that would not skip the attention of the powers that be I think.

AFAIK only the MICA is set to be integrated to the Mirage-2000 as a part of the upgrade. I haven't seen AASM integration mentioned anywhere, and given its unit cost I'm not surprised.

Which is precisely why I said what I did - the M2k weapons package has not yet been decided - there is strong wisdom in buying weapons that are common to as many platforms as possible. I can't think of too many Rafale weapons that can't be used by appropriately upgraded M2ks - this includes Mica, AASM, Scalp.

True enough. But given that fuel economy is a function of drag and engine SFC as much as it is the aircraft's weight, the difference may not be very stark.

True, but then based on purely looks, the latest F-16 is probly the draggiest version of that bird, don't you think? SFC wise, the M88 is quite decent.

I'm still uncertain about the MICA-IR. Technically, its not too challenging to create an MRAAM with an IR seeker. Israel could have fielded the Derby with a Python IV seeker, just as the Americans could have with an Aim-9/Aim-120 hybrid. The IR variant of the Aim-7 was cancelled and the R-23R/R-24R has been out of production for decades. That they haven't raises a question mark on the utility of an IR MRAAM at BVR ranges. It is possible though the MICA-IR's function is in lieu of the Magic-2, in a role analogous with the Aim-9X and ASRAAM.

I think Taygibay has answered this one well enough - thing is, Rafale has this capability today.

O

r mixed results from any of the numerous other DACT exercises that have occurred since. In simply gauged terms of hardware the EF is clearly superior - higher agility, higher speed, comparable or lower RCS in a loaded configuration, better AESA radar and capable of supercruise with stores.

True enough - but it does stand in stark contrast that at the ATLC meet, the gent speaking for the Rafale was an official from the Adla - AND nobody contradicted him. It was rather onesided, which is quite remarkable actually because, you'd have the others screaming and denying and demanding apologies and whatnot. It is by far the most I've heard from official sources in any exercise, normally what you get is tidbits from "sources" but not at the ATLC - the FrAF official came straight out.

Well the French have been good to everyone - Israel and Egypt, India and Pakistan, Taiwan and now China. I don't see how India merits any particular warmth from France. Not that the state of affairs is bad. All I'm saying is India's concerns didn't mitigate French support for lifting the EU military embargo on China, similarly a strategic relationship shouldn't earn the Rafale any brownie points as far as the MRCA contract is concerned.

All of this does not change the fact that when POKII happened, the French (as against the UK/Ger) did not condemn/sanction India. IIRC, the UK did hold up some spares for IN Seakings. Yes, they may sell to India's rivals, but a) won't hand them for free, and b) unlike UK/Ger won't make noises about nuke stance, UNSC support etc

Basically, there is v.little between these two birds performance wise, although the Rafale maintains a clear edge in the strike role. However, as pointed out by others as well, the Rafale merits greater consideration imho for reasons other than purely performance.

CM

[Anthony Hines]

The debate over which is better in what role is meaningless when the tech eval shortlisted these two birds. Clearly the IAF feels that either of them could fulfill its needs albeit with modifications (jugaad). Now the decision is a purely political and financial one and thats what is the mystery..

[sohels]

RAF Typhoon leads the race to secure £7 billion arms deal

The "flawless" performance of the Eurofighter Typhoon in the Libyan war has catapulted the aircraft ahead of its main rival to win one of the most lucrative of defence deals in recent times.
...
The Typhoon was already leading the pack after the jet scored highest in a technical assessment by Indian pilots who flew the aircraft in a series of exercises in 2010.

But it is believed that it will be the Typhoon's performance in the Libyan conflict, where it completed more than 600 combat missions, that will help to clinch the deal, the result of which will be made public before Christmas.

Both the French and the manufacturers of the Typhoon are aware that time is running out for the sales of their aircraft.

The full-scale production of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is looming and its manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, has already received huge orders from the US Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps who plan to buy nearly 2,500 F-35s over the next 40 years.

The jet has also proven to be the aircraft of choice for the Royal Navy and will fly from at least one of Britain's two new aircraft carriers when they eventually enter service.

[Karan M]

The debate over which is better in what role is meaningless when the tech eval shortlisted these two birds. Clearly the IAF feels that either of them could fulfill its needs albeit with modifications (jugaad). Now the decision is a purely political and financial one and thats what is the mystery..

In that sense every discussion on platforms either chosen by or procured by the IAF is meaningless, as they'll always know better. The entire point of having a discussion forum is to educate ourselves.

Debating the pros & cons of the shortlisted fighters is useful - for us - not for the IAF which will make do with whatever it procures. Besides which if it had not shortlisted two types, it would have ended up with a single vendor issue & there would have been a good chance that the CAG & procurement guys all would have cried foul with the program in trouble.

[shukla]

Italy to mount trade charm offensive in India

Defence cooperation will be in focus as the Italian delegation's visit comes at a time when India is about to open the commercial bids for the $10.4-billion deal for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

Eurofighter is one of the two shorlisted contenders. Britain's BAE Systems has a 33percent stake in the Eurofighter consortium, while Italy's Alenia Aeronautica, a subsidiary of Finmeccanica, has a 21 percent stake.

[saptarishi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkvUtklU ... re=related

watch this video to get a close look at the various sensors of rafale,,really nice one
rbe2-aa,spectra,damocles,fso-it,areos,sensor fusion,thales topowl-f hms,cockpit displays all explained,beautiful,a mouth watering cake for br fites hoping to see the rafale win.

[Kovy]

The "flawless" performance of the Eurofighter Typhoon in the Libyan war has catapulted the aircraft ahead of its main rival to win one of the most lucrative of defence deals in recent times.
...
But it is believed that it will be the Typhoon's performance in the Libyan conflict, where it completed more than 600 combat missions, that will help to clinch the deal, the result of which will be made public before Christmas.

Who can honnestly believe that ?
The stats speak for themselves, the Typhoon contribution during the Libyan conflict was far behind the Rafale and merely showed to the IAF how late the jet is in the real world :

Typhoon

• 600 sorties
  3000 flight hours
  mainly A2A missions
  some interdiction missions with GBU
  operating from land AB only

Rafale :

• >2000 sorties
  >6000 flight hours
  few pure A2A missions
  Interdictions missions
  SEAD missions
  Recce missions
  stand off strike missions
  buddy-buddy refueling missions
  operating from land AB or aircraft carrier

[Kashi]

It's an Hobson's choice for us

We go for Rafale, we get screwed on the price, the weapon systems, and most certainly on the upgrades

We go for the Typhoon, we get screwed on the price, an unfinished product we'll we expected to fund the development of and perhaps on the future upgrades.

It's a slippery slope either side. This is not to say that the US aircraft would have been better since they come with their own baggage as we are finding out to our cost.

[Kovy]

Every quality product has a price and you can't have it all for free
I mean, 126 top notch fighter jets, last generation sensors and A2A/A2G weapons, mission preparer, training facilities, assembly line, Hi tech production and maintenance tools, source code to implement your own systems...

That's more than 2 decades of R&D and trials in the most advanced technology fields. Thanks to the LCA, India know very well how difficult it is to develop and produce such a weapon system.

IAF deciders are not idiots. If the Rafale or the Typhoon (and the technology package coming with them) were not worth the money, they will have bought more SU-30 or Mig-29/35.

[Kashi]

Every quality product has a price and you can't have it all for free
I mean, 126 top notch fighter jets, last generation sensors and A2A/A2G weapons, mission preparer, training facilities, assembly line, Hi tech production and maintenance tools, source code to implement your own systems...

That's more than 2 decades of R&D and trials in the most advanced technology fields. Thanks to the LCA, India know very well how difficult it is to develop and produce such a weapon system.

IAF deciders are not idiots. If the Rafale or the Typhoon (and the technology package coming with them) were not worth the money, they will have bought more SU-30 or Mig-29/35.

The question is what sort of technology is coming with them? Is it the tech that will be just sufficient for us to assemble systems locally or will it be a true transfer of "knowledge" with regards to aircraft and engine design, which will enable us to develop those systems of and on our own?

[shiv]

Folks, was Oct 31st the date to announce the commercial bids?

[Singha]

no its sometime around Nov4-10 timeframe when bid envelopes will be opened. "processing" them to decide the winner is expected to take couple more months. it is expected to finish before april 2012 god willing.

[Taygibay]

Kashi, compare to the FX-2 in Brazil where the proposal includes
sales right over the South American sub-continent.
I believe India can claim a set-up to fit its industry from both the
pressing need for France to export and the historical relations between
our countries.
Of course, the DoD should be in tune with the industry and Rafale may be
"only" assembled and the tech transfer come through JVs on other stuff.
Engineers can learn a lot from collaboration in a "richer" work environment.
Processes tighten under stricter rules, etc.
Indian maths abilities are historically top notch so the very fact of working
in a JV within a design bureau of top notch quality should do it ...
and there ToT is part of the work. *
Say you get a redesign of a plant to more exacting standards as part of
an effort like the Kaveri's finalization and not only do you produce better
materials but the people who were thought their jobs there can change your
whole industrial fabric by instillating that those ways elsewhere over time.
Did you know that France as Dassault invested 500 million Euros in HAL ...
after signing the M-2000 upgrade?

So that the forms of payment of compensations can include ToT concerns
and vice-versa, very tortuous stuff really and the reason why it takes so long
( yes Shiv but set back to October 4th min as Singha said. )

And all examples above If/when they exist can go for the other birdy too.

Thanks to India for that jolly nice first Grand Prix, BTW.
That track is ubernice, good future there, I believe.


Good day all, Tay.

*http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2007/ ... al-to.html

[shukla]

Minister reveals £6m BAE boost (for Typhoon AESA radar)

The Government has committed to spending £6m developing a new radar it is hoped will boost the sale of Lancashire-built jets overseas, it has been revealed.

The Ministry of Defence has confirmed it will put the cash into an assessment programme which could pave the way for a cutting edge new piece of technology which would make the Eurofighter Typhoon jet the best in the world.

It is hoped the introduction of an electronically-scanned radar onto the jets would boost export orders and bring work into the jet-building factories of BAE Systems at Warton and Samlesbury, near Preston, where 1,300 people are threatened with job cuts.

Ben Wallace, MP for Preston North and Wyre, said he had met with directors of Italian firm Finmeccanica which is looking to develop the radar with BAE last week to discuss the plans.

He said: “The Government has agreed to put forward this £6m towards the first stage of development of this radar which could be vital for exports.

“It is the first phase of work but I believe it is a strong commitment from the Government and there is potential for further commitment to the next stage.”

Business minister Mark Prisk said the development of the technology could create “Europe’s first and only second generation radar” which would lift Typhoon’s stock with countries looking to buy the jet, including India which has a £6 billion requirement for 126 aircraft.

In a Commons debate on Thursday called by Preston MP Mark Hendrick about the looming cuts, Mr Prisk said the Government wanted to see how the initial research panned out.

He said: “In my book, that is a sensible pattern to follow but clearly, we would not have taken that first step had we not seen the opportunity.

“That is an important leap in capability for the Typhoon, and it could well mean that although there will be tighter pressure on the domestic Typhoon programme, there will be opportunities for better exports in the long term.”

[Vipul]

Ajai Shukla: End this MMRCA hara-kiri.

Knife-edge tension is guaranteed as senior executives from Eurofighter GmbH and Dassault assemble on Friday in the office of Vivek Rae, Director General (Acquisitions) of the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The purpose of the gathering: to open commercial bids for the world’s most ill-conceived and biggest international arms purchase. I refer to the Indian Air Force’s harebrained proposal to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) that will be outrun and outgunned by Chinese fighters soon after they enter Indian Air Force (IAF) service.

The opening of bids in any big contract is a tense moment. Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s inordinate anxiety also stems from the fact that the IAF buy is crucial to their future. Eurofighter GmbH faces serious internal problems with partner nations scaling down their orders. India is desperately needed to restore the economics of production. Britain’s Royal Air Force has already slashed its order for Typhoons. And, last week, The New York Times reported that Germany’s Luftwaffe (which ironically spearheads the Typhoon campaign in India) is trimming its purchase from 177 to 140 Typhoons. Dassault is in even direr straits, with Rafale having failed to find a single international customer; there are just 180 Rafale fighters on order, all for the French military, which hardly has a choice.

The only relatively carefree man at the start of that meeting on Friday might be Mr Rae himself, who will be sitting on the defence ministry’s war chest of Rs 42,000 crore. But his good cheer may not survive the opening of bids because the MoD’s estimate – arrived at some six years ago – will almost certainly be dwarfed by the lower bid. Last month the MoD revalued its original estimation in a process called “benchmarking”. But Mr Rae knows that if the winning quote emerges significantly more expensive than the MoD’s “benchmarked” figure, the process will begin anew.

Such an eventuality would be a blessing in disguise; and the best way to sidestep this cockamamie purchase of overpriced fighters that will take heavy casualties in any future conflict with China. Both the Typhoon and Rafale are “4th Generation-plus fighters”, inferior in crucial aspects like stealth to the J-20, China’s “5th Generation” (Gen-5) stealth fighter that took to the skies this year. Admittedly the J-20 would need a decade of flight-testing before it enters operational service, but the first MMRCA would only be delivered to India by 2015-16. Five years after that, operational J-20s, of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), will be dominating the Himalayas. The IAF MMRCAs, already outclassed by 2020, will limp around the skies till 2050 since the MoD will rightly protest that Rs 42,000-84,000 crore have been spent on them.

The IAF sadly is shutting its eyes to this even as China’s rising aerospace profile informs the security calculus of other regional air forces. Japan, South Korea and Singapore are realising that a Gen-5 fleet is needed for a credible defence capability against the PLA. South Korea is set to choose Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightening II, the only Gen-5 fighter on offer in the global market. The Japan Air Self Defence Force (JASDF) too is veering around to the F-35 after Lockheed Martin was denied export clearances to supply Tokyo the F-22 Raptor, unarguably the world’s most advanced fighter. In 2003, Singapore invested money into the F-35 development programme; it is on course to buy the aircraft.

Given that a rising China makes choosing Gen-5 a no-brainer, why then is the IAF (presumably a rational actor) inexplicably buying Gen-4+ fighters? The reason, sadly, is the political-bureaucratic stranglehold over procurement in which any IAF re-evaluation carries a penalty of years of delay. In the early 2000s, when the IAF framed the case for buying an MMRCA, no Gen-5 aircraft were available for sale. The F-35 was under development but was not ready for flight-testing, an essential part of India’s procurement process. Unwilling to wait for a Gen-5 fighter, the IAF scaled down its requirements and initiated an impartial multi-vendor contest for whatever Gen-4+ fighters were there in the market.

Years later, as the IAF finds itself choosing between two Gen-4+ aircraft, it must also note that the F-35 is on the cusp of operational clearance. It’s manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, has signalled in multiple ways that it would supply the IAF that fighter at a fly-away cost of $65 million per aircraft (significantly cheaper than the Rafale and the Typhoon) with deliveries beginning by 2015. Washington has indicated that any F-35 sale to India would be expeditiously cleared. But for an insecure IAF, used to being shoved around by the MoD, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The MMRCA purchase would bring in six squadrons of reasonably good fighters, even if they were outclassed by the PLAAF in war. Any change at this state, or so the IAF believes and accepts, would require fresh MoD clearances and financial sanctions that could take another three years.

But there is an alternative. The IAF must frankly tell the MoD that the situation has changed, and that national security demands scrapping the overpriced MMRCA procurement and buying the F-35 through a single-vendor contract. The defence of the realm cannot be held hostage to the procedural requirement of multi-vendor bidding; nor is overpaying justifiable if it was done through competitive bidding. New Delhi has recently procured several fine aircraft on a single-vendor, government-to-government basis: the Sukhoi-30MKI from Russia; and the C-130J and C-17 transport aircraft from the US. The procurement of a new fighter that will form the backbone of the IAF for decades must be treated with the same urgency.

[Cosmo_R]

Shuklaji is really beating the drum for LM isn't he?

[ramana]

When am in market for apples, the guy says pineapples might be available. So give up on apples.