"Christian" Fundamentalism in West

[Dhu]

Monotheist terrorist would perhaps be the best description. Since secularism is a subset of monotheism, then we can even visualize this incident as a continuation of the catholic versus protestant halal'ing common in europe up to the 1st world war. And if islam is considered a subset of christianism (which it is) then this episode can even be seen as course correction in western response to islam and not just an intra-western spat. Again, all within the monotheist happy family!!

At any rate, this individual was certainly out of the loop of internationalist players who know that liberalism is designed specifically to neuter"alize" the third-worlders and to "legitimately" consolidate the ill-gotten gains of monotheist loot. This is quite clear from how internationalist "liberals" like Hillary have been pushing the western agenda (most recently attending a showing of christist Leela Samson's open appropriation of heathen dance forms in Chennai). Perhaps a loop can be evolved so that the more clueless western conservatives will not feel so dis-empowered to start halaling their own rather than the heathens of the "third world" (eg Norway funding of the christist LTTE).

[RajeshA]

IMHO, even starting this thread is a big distraction from what should remain the focus - Islamic Terrorism. Terrorism should remain associated with the religion of peace.

What happened in Norway was a "Violent Reaction in the West to Left-Liberal Policies on Islamic Appeasement".

[Airavat]

Christian Jihad? Why We Should Worry About Right-Wing Terror Attacks Like Norway's in the US: Frank Schaeffer

[Murugan]

The "core" in Christianity cannot be be understood just by scriptures (truth). There is also way and the life. If you dislike others for being different, its just being unchristian and thats fundamentatlism since you adhere to truth (fundamental) in a incomplete sense (still not fully christian). The way and life also need to be correct to be christian

Its not enough that you know truth and want others to follow it. You also need to be an example in your life and thus show the way. If not, its not complete

Newzealand, Australia and US are, as per above logic not only unchristian but also inhuman nations built by almost exterminating natives of these lands who were unchristian, unwhite and 'imcomplete' and after cleansing these nations from their own rightful people wrote national anthem of their own and fund christian activities worldwide and preach other nations about humanity. Also true for south american nations

Because these christian whites never liked the aborigines of australia, maories, red-indians and just 'got rid of' them. No pope, saint or mother came forward to stop these acts of disliking others for being different - at least not well-known .

[Murugan]

BTW.. the Time of India has a opening page with "Religious Right terrorist" as the cause of the Danish terror. It did not say "Christian religious right terrorist". The "Christian" part is left out. Cause in India, the leftists want to take a pot shot at Hindu conservatives. Like, "Liberal leftsts" are good and "religious right" means bad.

Never mind the fact that the "Christian religious Right" of India are part and parcel of the Indian leftists.

Pffft!

ToIlet, Un-Hindu, NonHindustan T and others are full of Secular Fundamentalists, instead of calling them liberal or something the best term suitable is secular fundamentalists, in short SeFus, or just 'sefus'.

Diggi was the first known person called a secular fundamentalist by rajdeep sardesai in HT (another sefu?).

[RajeshA]

ToIlet, Un-Hindu, NonHindustan T and others are full of Secular Fundamentalists, instead of calling them liberal or something the best term suitable is secular fundamentalists, in short SeFus, or just 'sefus'

Or "Pseudo-secular fundamentalists" - "Psesefus" pronounced Sisyphus!

[chetak]

The "core" in Christianity cannot be be understood just by scriptures (truth). There is also way and the life. If you dislike others for being different, its just being unchristian and thats fundamentatlism since you adhere to truth (fundamental) in a incomplete sense (still not fully christian). The way and life also need to be correct to be christian

Its not enough that you know truth and want others to follow it. You also need to be an example in your life and thus show the way. If not, its not complete

Newzealand, Australia and US are, as per above logic not only unchristian but also inhuman nations built by almost exterminating natives of these lands who were unchristian, unwhite and 'imcomplete' and after cleansing these nations from their own rightful people wrote national anthem of their own and fund christian activities worldwide and preach other nations about humanity. Also true for south american nations

Because these christian whites never liked the aborigines of australia, maories, red-indians and just 'got rid of' them. No pope, saint or mother came forward to stop these acts of disliking others for being different - at least not well-known .

Murugan saar,

The more I see of this thread, the more I become aware that this is a heavily mined battlefield that will also very soon draw retaliatory and sometimes fatal predator strikes.

A word to the wise with the welfare of all at heart...

Veni, Vidi but no Vici.

The wise would depart in silence whence they came.

[Dhu]

Newzealand, Australia and US are, as per above logic not only unchristian but also inhuman nations built by almost exterminating natives of these lands who were unchristian, unwhite and 'imcomplete' and after cleansing these nations from their own rightful people

Recount the deeds and the reply will be "please refer to our perfected theory; these are all misapplications (misuse) of the theory." Refer to the theory and the reply will be "please refer to the our 'perfect way of life". Refer to the 'perfect way of life' and then the reply will be that "all humans are fallible and sinful, the grace of the One True God was withdrawn after the Fall". And so on..

If 2000 years of such incessant demonization and deculturation of heathens is not enough to form a trajectory for analysis, then what can possibly be so?

Btw, is the "theory" that 'all humans are sinful' the monotheist theological equivalent to the famous 'equal equal'? What would happen if it were so? If the marxist 'dialectic' (A = not-A) is an example of the 'equal equal' canard which is commonly deployed today as 'social theory', then why cannot the 'all humans are sinful' theory be the legitimating canard of yesterday?

[Pranav]

Christianity did not have anything to do with this - Breivik was a Freemason, pro-Geert Wilders, and called himself a "conservative". This is from his wikipedia page -

Influences

Breivik identified himself in a multitude of social media services as an admirer of, among others, Winston Churchill,[19] Max Manus,[19] and Dutch politician Geert Wilders, whose political party he described as "the only true party for conservatives".[20] On Twitter he paraphrased philosopher John Stuart Mill, "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests".[9][21] He was reportedly at some time a Freemason[22] a member of St. John's Lodge in Oslo.[23]

Ideas

Breivik is reported to have written many posts on the website document.no,[24] described by Aftenposten as "Islam-critical and Israel-friendly".[25] He also attended meetings of "Documents venner" (Friends of Document), affiliated with the website.[26] Dagens Næringsliv writes that Breivik sought to start a Norwegian version of the Tea Party movement in cooperation with the owners of document.no, but that they, after expressing initial interest, ultimately turned down his proposal because he did not have the contacts he promised.[27] Due to the media attention on his internet activity following the 2011 attacks, document.no compiled a complete list of comments made by Breivik on its website between September 2009 and June 2010.[28][29][30]

Breivik wrote that it was essential to "fight" for a "Judeo-Christian Europe", praised the rejection of "anti-Jewish views" and stated that "the new Conservatist ‘new right’ is rapidly developing into a pro-Israel, anti-Jihad alliance."[31] He applauds Israel, and considers Israel to be a victim of alleged "cultural Marxists" who "see Israel as a 'racist' state".[32]

[Pranav]

What did the Oslo Killer want

Good article that throws more light on the motivations of the madman. He was indeed influenced by Christianist ideas...and regarded himself as a Knights Templar..one of the leading military units in the Crusades.

Besides the tragedy of 90 totally senseless deaths - this guy might also pose a huge setback to the gains of David Cameron's 'muscular liberalism' policy in the UK and Europe in general. The concept of multi-culturalism was waning in popularity in Europe - but this guy's lunacy provides enough grist to the defenders of multi-culturalism in Europe and India to portray the opposition as murderous fanatics.

The reference to the Templars is interesting ... the Templars were the forerunners of Freemasonry in Europe. They made some interesting connections in Palestine with the cult of the Assassins from Persia, at the time of the Crusades.

[Murugan]

Btw, Benjamin Franklin and George Washington were freemasons, so King George V. George Washington was a Grand Master.

[Pranav]

Btw, Benjamin Franklin and George Washington were freemasons, so King George V. George Washington was a Grand Master.

Freemasonry is essentially a club of dupes, shills and useful idiots, sponsored by elites of the west.

[Arjun]

We are getting into very fine semantics out here....Brevik was very explicitly anti-immigration and anti-Islam. Is that not the same as pro-Christian ? I personally don't agree with the logic that the two are different - but more importantly, whatever logic is used should be used globally in all contexts. That would imply anti-Islamic and anti-multi-culturalism views in India are not the same as pro-Hindutva views.

[chetak]

Btw, Benjamin Franklin and George Washington were freemasons, so King George V. George Washington was a Grand Master.

Freemasonry is essentially a club of dupes, shills and useful idiots, sponsored by elites of the west.

Eaaaasy there, big boy.

There is bound to be a freemason or two among the SDRE BFRites.

[Theo_Fidel]

Christianity did not have anything to do with this - Breivik was a Freemason, pro-Geert Wilders, and called himself a "conservative". This is from his wikipedia page -

Pranav,

This is not entirely true. Most of these people believe the Christian Faith should be more powerful. For instance declare USA as a Christian nation. I have met these wacko's uncomfortable close sadly.

It you dug down and asked them, they all believe they are doing Gods work, the Christian god. The Bible, however twisted, is still their literal reference point.

For instance they oppose the Idea of allowing foreign converts into the Christian community.

It is not even a 'White' power movement. For instance the English groups oppose the Eastern Europeans coming, the Italians oppose the Greeks, etc. There is very little logic to it. An easy target is selected and identified as anti-themselves and targeted for 'pressure'.

Note the attacks on Gays by the Westboro church.

Bottom line, there is a market and source of funds for such attitudes.

[harbans]

No, you guys are terribly wrong calling it 'Christian' fundamentalism. This is a video put up by him..and it's still on line. This is what inspired him. The loner music is depressing. But if you want to learn his motivation..see this. Christianity is listed as a hate ideology by this guy along with Marxism, Multicultaralism and Islam.

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21123164bZCBQeZ8

This may not be online for too much time i guess. So check it out or download a copy. This is an exemplary reference for the motivation.

[Arjun]

Saw the video....this guy is a chillingly calculating psycopath !

He lists Christendom as a hate ideology along with Marxism, Islam and Nazism, though he put much lower numbers of deaths against it as compared to the others, maybe implying that Christendom is the least dangerous of the four.

However, his inspiration is clearly from the Christian Crusades - that theme is repeated throughout the video.

[RajeshA]

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21123164bZCBQeZ8

This is something that one is acutely aware of in Europe - the political correctness. The Freedom/Progressive Movement in Europe is trying to break out of it.

[Fidel Guevara]

Brevik is a psycho, pure and simple. Tryng to analyze his mind based on his initial ramblings is well beyond trained psychologists...I am sure we will see many other causes emerge in the next few days - his girlfriend ditched him, the govt didn't approve his business permit, or he received a speeding ticket from a rude cop...the list of possible triggers is endless, when you're dealing with a basic psychopath.

[Fidel Guevara]

Two areas where RoP differs from all other religions are

1) Islam is more than a religion, it's a way of life, and it is far more demanding of its' believers than any other religion, also far more prescriptive of specific actions on a day-to-day basis

2) Jihad - no other religion has this mandatory requirement

We shouldn't lose focus on the real enemy. Disruptive activities caused by Non-Islamic fundamentalism is at best a law and order issue caused by a few crackpots.

[Atri]

Sad story.. Oslo is very good city.. the people here were quite peaceful, although you could sense the rumble within. This guy truly might end up like Nathuram Godse of Europe who acted out of stupidity and threw the potential channelization of public opinion into disarray by such premature and idiotic act..

For those who cannot see it on Veoh, here is the youtibe link -



Christianity is the last shackle on the minds of the europeans.. It is an middle-eastern ideology violently forced on the minds of europeans.. If they truely wish to find their roots again, this last shackle must go as well. Christianity is native to middle east, evolved (in its pristine original form) for life in middle east. NT is merely more civilized and humane form of the OT (if we keep aside the whole "son of god" business).

It was intriguing and amusing to see this guy trying to unshackle himself, but ending up like Hitler, with both his feet in his mouth. And please check the comments to this video as well.. For further details, read this enlightening post by Rudradev ji, long ago.. I will put forth my views on deracination of continental europe after a while.. I need to put my thoughts together..

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 20#p924420

Swamy,

Congratulations on your scholarship... your write-up is definitely a keeper and goes some way towards illuminating possible connections between the West's civilizational attitude to India, and the foreign policy practiced by the pre-eminent Western power towards modern India.

Going on to root causes, though... I have only glimpsed scattered evidence of what may lie beneath all of this. I don't claim to be an expert at all... with all humility, let me say that the search is only beginning for me, and that I feel privileged to belong to BR, a community with several individuals who may contribute to its advancement.

Here is what I think I have uncovered so far. No citations, references etc. yet... those are a long way off. But just to begin with.

When we think of Western schools of thought in the modern world, many of us are wont to group them into essentially two categories. The Capitalist and the Socialist is what we could call these in the context of social, political and economic outlook. The Anglo-American and the Slavic, (loosely speaking) in terms of ethnic or civilizational perspective. The Judeo-Christian and the Post-Orthodox, (again loosely speaking) in terms of religious perspective.

The Anglo-American school of thought we all know very well... it is what most of us refer to as the "West" in terms of primary civilizational identity. Their economic attitudes were shaped by the likes of Alexander Hamilton and Adam Smith; their political attitudes by such figures as Woodrow Wilson and Winston Churchill; and their ideological attitudes by a compact between Protestant Christianity and Judaism (not always easy, but it hangs together well enough for most purposes.) The Roman Catholic Church is largely aligned with the Anglo American school, and its adherents have considerable influence especially in the United States; however, we must needs see the RCC here as a sort of subsidiary power. Since the days of German and Italian reunification, the Papacy lost any semblance of real political or military power; a decline in fortune that began with the collapse of Spain under Philip II, and continued to completion with the wars of Garibaldi (the Pope was the most fervent opponent of Italian reunification, and prevailed upon all manner of monarchs from Napoleon III of France to the Austrian Hapsburgs to fight the unificationists on his behalf, but failed to retain any temporal power for the Vatican eventually.)

The other school is in disarray following the end of the Cold War, but easy enough to recognize. Its economic attitudes in the last century were shaped by Marxist dialectical materialism; its political attitudes by Leninist Bolshevism; and its ideological perspective by a series of thinkers from Engels to Mao. There is currently a struggle within this camp as to how to redefine itself and its purposes for a new century, but its key ideology-- socialism-- is very much alive in Europe as well as in present-day Russia, though it takes variously libertarian and authoritarian forms in different societies and political entities.

These schools are both well known to us, and broadly occupy the "right" and the "left" of the Western economic, political and ideological spectrum today. It's easy to forget that in the modern era, there had ever been any other.

However, at the turn of the last century, there were in fact three schools of thought in the West. The third "school" was still inchoate at the time it was bludgeoned into comatose hiatus by the other two around the middle of the last century; it still had not consolidated itself, indeed it had never found a powerful enough state to speak for it until the 1930s, and when it did, that state turned out to be on the wrong side of history for a variety of political reasons.

In this third school I include parties that were given neither to the ways of the Anglosphere nor the Russosphere; and more importantly, had limited if any ideological affinity to either Judeo-Christianity or Socialism. I include movements as diverse as Norse Paganism, Gardnerian Wicca, the Order of the Golden Dawn and the Theosophical Society. All these movements hinged around the search for a deeper, lost truth and source of identity that had been suppressed by the post-Constantinian rise of Christian Imperialism. Yet many remained on the fringes of their respective societies, marginalized and trivialized as occult absurdities by the far more powerful adherents of Judeo-Christianity or Socialism. Even today, anyone bandying these names around is considered to be some kind of conspiracy theorist... so I list them here with the utmost temerity. Hear me out though.

As it happened, there was a time when this third alternative to the two pre-eminent schools of thought, began to acquire the degree of ideological momentum required to coalesce into a materialistic or political philosophy. Importantly, this process was driven by the work of several German thinkers of the 1800s and early 1900s... Nietzsche, Hegel, Heidegger... all of whom were influenced to some degree by the writings of Friedrich Max Muller.

Max Muller began as an orientalist of the pre-Modern colonial tradition, but soon found himself genuinely fascinated by the living body of knowledge represented in Dharmic civilization. It is important to note that many other "third-school" movements also looked to Indic traditions as a source of inspiration, wisdom and even memetic/civilizational ancestry, including the Theosophists and the Golden Dawn.

What emerged from this...and this is why I consider it a distinct, third school set apart from either Judeo-Christian Anglo-Americanism or Socialism...was a realization among sections of Western society that Sanatan Dharm might indeed be the key to the further evolution of human society; and that they, in the European West, had ancestral links to the civilizational cradle of Sanatan Dharm that far predated either the ideological tyranny of Judeo-Christianity or the historical negation innate to Socialism.

In other words, the Third School I am referring to looked neither to Jerusalem nor to Rome as the ideological urheimat of the West... much of it looked, instead, to India.

This was complete anathema to both the Anglo-American Judeo-Christians, and the Marxists. As long as these third-school movements remained scattered at the fringes of society, they were easy to malign and ridicule. However, as it happened, the third school came to influence a political movement powerful enough to gain mastery over a pivotal European country.

A very extreme form of third-school ideology, albeit highly distorted through the prism of an autocratic cult of personality, found a dramatic political manifestation in the National Socialist Workers' Party.

It is not easy to trace the connections between Indic civilization and Hitler's Nazism. For one thing, both the Judeo-Christians and the Socialists of the West have relentlessly bludgeoned Hinduism with the threat of demonization by association... so that we have become fearfully apologetic of even trying to draw a connection. That is not our Swastika, we say; those are not our Aryans. For another, India was not in a position to assert herself politically or even ideologically over those European movements that might have looked to her for inspiration; we were abject, a British colony. So it was only prudent, if ironic, that we sent our strongest and brightest to fight against the National Socialists on behalf of our British oppressors.

Nonetheless, the connections do exist. Read Savitri Devi's "The Lightning and the Sun" for clues.

Following the utter destruction of Nazi Germany at the end of the Second World War, the two victorious schools of thought... Anglo-American and Russian Socialist... took every measure to ensure that nothing resembling Nazism would ever gain enough ideological currency to become a serious contender for Western political power again. The Holocaust of Jews proved a useful pretext for the stamping out and systematic demonization of everything Nazism was associated with... it enabled the Anglo-Americans to claim moral superiority, implicitly by virtue of a solidly Judeo-Christian and "democratic" ethic, over the crazy mass-murdering occultists who had dared to venerate heathen symbols and ideas in righetously Christian Europe. For their part, the Russian Communists went about negating the historical context of everything associated with Nazism just as Communists and Socialists will distort and negate any piece of history inconvenient to their worldview to this day.

Ultimately, the philosophical contribution of Germany to Western thought was cauterized and summarized by the elegant and non-threatening trifecta: "Godel, Escher, Bach." A sanitized version for the Anglo-Americans to appreciate in the twentieth century; though the Russian Communists even rejected these three figures as elitist emblems. Meanwhile, the industriousness, innovation, and genius of the German people are ascribed (in the Judeo-Christian narrative) to their "Lutheran work ethic." Period. No hint that they ever had any other civilizational influences besides.

Today everyone remembers Hitler the jew-hater, the madman, the warmonger. That is the legend that has been drummed into worldwide public consciousness at the behest of WWII's victors. Everyone thinks of Hitler as somehow especially evil, notwithstanding the fact that his Holocaust was dwarfed by the Americans in the process of seizing their continent from its natives; by the British many times over, in India and their other colonial possessions; and by an array of twentieth-century Socialist despots from Stalin to Pol Pot.

Hitler may have been a warmonger and a racist; but he was also a lover of animals and a vegetarian. These ideas did not come from any Bible or Torah. They came from something the Judeo-Christians and the Socialists alike fear far more terribly than they do one another (for indeed, Marxism is no more than an extension of Abrahamic/Semitic ideology, another "reformation" of Western social and political thought ultimately contrived to justify brute-force imperialistic expansion and the subjugation of other peoples.) They come from Dharma.

Was Hitler Dharmic? To some degree he was, although he did many Adharmic things and paid the price for them. It is true, of course, that much of WWII German military tradition remained imbued with Christian symbology, the Iron Cross and so on, hearkening back to the Holy Roman Empire and more recently reinforced after German unification under a Kaiser with quasi-spiritual "divine right". But that may only be because the full import of Nazi ideology, specifically its third-school aspects, had not had a chance to sink in to German civil society before the Germans went out to war. It is also true that the Church, specifically the Roman Catholic Church, collaborated with his Holocaust; but let us remember that the RCC had been more or less a rentier power since the reunification of Italy, with the Pope hanging his hat on whichever power seemed pre-eminent in Europe in the hope of patronage.

But none of that is the issue here.

The issue here is
1) that a third school of thought existed in the West at the turn of the last century, distinct from both Anglo-American Judeo-Christianity and from International Socialism;
2) that the adherents of this school explored ideological foundations for European civilizational identity in Dharmic civilization... ideas that were extremely threatening to both Judeo-Christianity and Communism;
3) and that, with the end of the Second World War, it was demonized by association with Nazism and consigned to ideological oblivion. For the next several decades, at least.

When India became independent, it could not have been far from the minds of both the Anglo-American and Communist thinkers, how tremendous a fascination Indian civilization had exerted on their fellow White Europeans, not very long ago at all. It escaped the notice of neither the Christian Church nor the Jewish international business elite that even in an absence of temporal power, while India herself suffered the throes of slavery and misery, the power of Dharmic civilization to shape the imagination of the West had remained profound.

What would happen now if India were allowed to re-establish the social, the political, the economic power of that Dharmic civilization as well? Merely on the strength of her ancient philosophical wisdom and devoutly preserved spiritual traditions, India had managed to influence the West in the early modern age while still under the British jackboot. Now suppose she gained what the Capitalists and Communists alike understood to be *real* power... material power?

It has never been a secret to any sincere student of History that Dharmic civilization has been the pre-eminent cultural foundation of Asia, its influence immediately perceptible from Tibet to Indonesia to the Philippines and Japan, and historically discernible in regions of West and Central Asia despite the best efforts of Islamic marauders to scour it away.

The real secret that the West has been keeping from us is the degree to which Dharmic civilization had influenced a great diversity of spiritual, philosophical, social and even political institutions in the West itself... from the Theosophical Society of Blavatsky and Annie Besant to the National Socialist Workers' Party of Adolf Hitler. Western "right" and "left", Anglo-American and Slav alike have no greater fear than that this will happen again; and that this time, there will be a Civilization-State with real temporal power seizing the helm of her destiny.

The Third School still has its adherents today... such intellectuals as Koenraad Elst, Francois Gaultier and David Frawley continue the tradition, though they are little known outside their circles of scholarship. If the Third School ever re-asserts itself in the West, it will be thanks to the tireless and dedicated efforts of men and women such as these, who carried the torch through the decades of obscurity.

I hope this begins to suggest the possibility of an answer for you, as it has for me. If you arrive at one, let me know... I'm a very long way from learning the whole truth myself.

[RajeshA]

It was intriguing and amusing to see this guy showing trying to unshackle himself, but ending up like Hitler.

He obviously felt strongly that the Cultural Marxists, have de-culturalized Europe and through "political correctness" have shut up all criticism of Islamism in Europe.

At some point probably the coldness of logic triumphed over the moderation of the heart.

[RajeshA]

Brevik is a psycho, pure and simple. Tryng to analyze his mind based on his initial ramblings is well beyond trained psychologists...I am sure we will see many other causes emerge in the next few days - his girlfriend ditched him, the govt didn't approve his business permit, or he received a speeding ticket from a rude cop...the list of possible triggers is endless, when you're dealing with a basic psychopath.

Why indulge in such speculation? Why such certainty that one may find something like this?

[Manny]

Interesting Video on the need for Christian Crusade in Europe in the 21st century.

What I don't get is, why these Christians supremacists and Islamic supremacists are protected and defended by the Indian leftists!

[brihaspati]

Its the same logic that drives AFPakis to slaughter their own.

This is not correct.

Extreme Biblical literals believe liberals as protecting and creating the problem of multi-culturalism. They wish to reverse immigration, all kinds.

Also doesn't matter what book says choice is ours. During civil war both pro & anti-slavery used Bible as evidence for righteousness of their way. This too was truth.

Theo ji,
do you see the problem in claiming a certain text as the only true "revelation" that fixes all "truth" forever into the future, and then claim that you can pick and choose and reject those you do not like?

This is the source of all the trouble in the "people of the book". So arguments both for and against "slavery" could simultaneously be sourced from the same text. Once you put that text as the root source of all legitimacy of the ideology - you can never really doubt parts and pieces to any seriously convincing degree without delegitimizing the original text which in turn is the source. Therefore doubting within the revealed traditions almost always leads to complete exclusivist splits if not violence - since people realize how doubts would hit the roots of faith. Hence the "war" against slavery had to be literal, in physical coercive terms - ideology was not sufficient. Devouts populated the south as much as they did the north.

One can see that none of the "reforms" within the Christian movement were "peaceful", including that of "Luther", and none of them were successful unless they tactically aligned with/employed/enlisted/befriended violence or migrated "out".

[Pranav]

Brevik is a psycho, pure and simple. Tryng to analyze his mind based on his initial ramblings is well beyond trained psychologists...I am sure we will see many other causes emerge in the next few days - his girlfriend ditched him, the govt didn't approve his business permit, or he received a speeding ticket from a rude cop...the list of possible triggers is endless, when you're dealing with a basic psychopath.

Why indulge in such speculation? Why such certainty that one may find something like this?

We may well find motivated media releases emerging in the next few days, trying to prove that he was a "lone nut". However, there are indications that there were other shooters on the island - At least two terrorists behind Norwegian youth camp massacre - witnesses - http://en.rian.ru/world/20110723/165350450.html

[Arjun]

At some point probably the coldness of logic triumphed over the moderation of the heart.

Logic will lead to the right answer based on the initial axioms you start out with....If you don't start out with a basic premise that killing innocent civilians is never justified, this is what you will end up with. I wonder what kind of warped mind can think of countering hate ideologies by mass killing of the innocent !

[brihaspati]

Well we may dub him a psychopath/loony - but I still find no answer to my question that, by the same criterion anyone who says he believes the fundamental text of Islam which reco's pagans to be killed just because they are "pagans", or the Leninist (the L in ML of Maoists) doctrine that all "states" are instruments of coercion and repression in the hands of one class against all others and that the "proletariat" must capture state power and use it to repress non-proletariat [note that this vague "class" concept is an ascribed identity dependent on the whims and political needs of the Marxist - Mao himself changes his list of criteria at least 6 times over his career] - should not automatically qualify as loonies and psychopaths?

[brihaspati]

"Killing of innocents" is never very far from the revealed traditions. Old-testament recos clearing out of Canaanite/Edomite populations and slaughtering of all - it was a divine order. If the so-called sermon-on-the-mount overruled Matthew 10:34-36, or parts of Luke, then Americans should have turned their "other cheek" after pearl harbour? Churchill should not have ordered the carpet bombing of civilian targets or Washington should not have ordered incendiary attacks on civilians of Japanese cities? In fact even the defence of Vienna would have been an un-Christian act? Or say the other genocides inspired by missionary activists both within Europe and the newWorld and Asia?

What the chicanery is all about - is that this "killing of innocents" is okay if it is ordered by the "authorities" - the Church leaders, the allied kings/emperors/so-called elected govs. Then it becomes necessary collateral damage on the way to a higher purpose. The angry reaction is when individuals not belonging to the ruling interests, take up the same motivation and argument and act out as lone-wolfs.

Violence is not really detested or is the anathema - who controls it is the real emotional issue.

[RajeshA]

At some point probably the coldness of logic triumphed over the moderation of the heart.

Logic will lead to the right answer based on the initial axioms you start out with....If you don't start out with a basic premise that killing innocent civilians is never justified, this is what you will end up with. I wonder what kind of warped mind can think of countering hate ideologies by mass killing of the innocent !

Arjun ji,

I guess, it depends what one considers the ideological focus - the human, life as such, social order, nation, tenets of a book, cultural heritage, the planet.

In war, national security or civilizational mission could be considered paramount, and human life may not get the same level of consideration. If he was thinking only at level of threat to his cultural heritage, unwilling or incapable of weighing this together with other moral dimensions, than considerations of human life may have simply become irrelevant to him in comparison. Single-mindedness to achieve one's mission, can lead one to lose one's moral compass.

[darshhan]

>>There is nothing Chistian or Muslim with such terrorit entities and individuals,but a warped blinkered vision of their roots/religion etc.

In fundamental disagreement here boss. Certainly there is nothing that can be labelled as "Christian terrorism" in what this Norwegian lunatic has done. Information available so far does not suggest he planned it on Christian theological grounds, or that he executed the act using any religious atmospherics or war cries or anything like that, and again so far he has not justified it to the extent that we know in religious Christian terms. All we know so far is that he visited Christian fundamentalist website(s). Probably half the guys on BRF have done so, including me.

But this cannot be said about Islamic terrorists. They conceive the global and local terrorist activties entirely from an Islamic viewpoint, using specific doctrines, rituals and even terminologies. They execute the acts very often within clear religious constructs, using religion based operation names and using the cry Allah u Akbar before, for instance, detonating themselves or in the process of a fidayeen attack, and after the action, the terrorist act is almost always (I don't know of any exception, but there might be) justified in religious terms, referring to the Koran for explanations. This is a completely different animal.

Whether Islamic terrorism is somehow "worse" than random terrorism of the kind carried out by Christians, Hindus, Jews or Buddhists is a different discussion altogether. The problem of global terrorism that the world faces today is overwhelmingly Islamic, and the facts bear this out.

+1 .Absolutely true.Islam and Jihadi doctrine are inseparable.This cannot be said about any other religion.This is what makes Islam more of a political movement rather than a religion.

[sanjeevpunj]

The mercilessness of such an act instantly turned this man away from the path of Christ, of Love.Such heartless acts are not pardonable under any circumstances, and this guy falls into the category of those who will suffer very long years. Perhaps he has a past life connection with Nazism, and came to revive it.Just my tuppence.

[RamaY]

Christianity is native to middle east, evolved (in its pristine original form) for life in middle east.

Reminded me a conversation I had with Ramanaji a long while ago.

In the early days Judaism was born out of a fring community outside then ruling society of Pharos. The Pharos denounced and prosecuted it as long as they could. When the egyptian kingdom fell in the hands of Romans it ended with a roman-Jewish alliance.

Then came Jesus. The ruling Jewish community called it blasphemy, which eventually lead to the crusifixtion of Jesus. We can see how Christianity raised to power in the moving Agora.

Romans (like they did with a strong Jewish society before) made peace with Christianity by propping it. At the end the roman rules themselves converted into Christianity denouncing thier own local ideology. Since they valued the ME regions of their kingdom more than their core regions they did not hesitate to persecute their own core-ideology followers.

Then arrived Islam. As long as there are adherents of Christianity and Judaism in ME, the EU power centers resisted Islam thru crusades. When they realized that the ME lands are gone out of their hands forever, they focussed on saving their core regions (Spanish reconquista). Thus they were able to save their power structures but not their core value system (like post 1947 Bharat - it kept the power but yet to reestablish it's core value system).

When Changhis Khan invaded Middleeast, it remained as occupation as long as Changhis Khan lived. But when the power transferred to it's sons, the kingdom did not remain united to sustain type ME occupation. It forced the successor of Changhis Khan to convert into Islam. If this happened during Changhis Khan's time, the alternative history would have been that -
1. China and Mangolia would have been Islamic nations by now (making Christianity irrelevant in world stage; with a Christianity as a religious state around Rome like today's Israel)

2. The core of Islamic power would have been moved to Mangolia/China region (the two holy masques would have been irrelevant). This might have made Judaism strong in ME again; and in one decision tree it there wouldnt have been Af-Pak issue.

The next Concept is Marxism/Secularism: this is nothing but Christianity without church. It's methods are very similar to previous rounds.

For some reason Bharat withstood all these transformations and is still holding on to it's core dharmic and eternal system. It is in the best interests of the whole world to protect it as that holds the solution to all these transformations.

Like I mentioned before, it is to get confused between taking a transformation as the truth and looking the truth as it is looking thru all it's transformations. Bharat and it's Sanatana Dharma holds the key to that truth.

[Satya_anveshi]

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21123164bZCBQeZ8

The whole shebang in the document form

[RamaY]

Continuing with my thoughts...

This transformation is similar to the Indic revival in Bharat at various times in terms of Avataras and Seers like Sri Krishna (religious + political + social), Chanakya (political + social ), Adi Samkaracharya (religious + social ), Vidyaranya (political + social), Gandhi (political) and so on...

Same goes with Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Marxism, secular democracy etc.


The only difference in these cases is that the SD foundation, on which Indic avataras and seers built their transformations, is pluralistic in nature where as the ME foundations are monotheistic and intolerant in nature. That is why even secular democracy (the penacea of uber liberals and RNIs) needs to propagated thru war

[darshhan]

Brevik is a psycho, pure and simple. Tryng to analyze his mind based on his initial ramblings is well beyond trained psychologists...I am sure we will see many other causes emerge in the next few days - his girlfriend ditched him, the govt didn't approve his business permit, or he received a speeding ticket from a rude cop...the list of possible triggers is endless, when you're dealing with a basic psychopath.

Fidel ji , I beg to differ with you on the point that brevik is a psycho.From his writings he comes out as a normal guy who is concerned with rising influence of islam and multiculturalism in his country.Fair enough.I also think that he carried out this massacre as part of a deliberate plan and not because he snapped due to some trigger.

Infact if I am right we will definitely see the effect of this massacre in coming months if not days.Remember Norway is a nation where law is respected.

[darshhan]

.If you don't start out with a basic premise that killing innocent civilians is never justified, this is what you will end up with. I wonder what kind of warped mind can think of countering hate ideologies by mass killing of the innocent !

The mind which is concerned with achieving the end state rather than pondering over the means.The mind which is supremely objective.We might not be able to justify but Brevik did.As far as humanity is concerned he was wrong but if he manages to achieve his objectives , he did fine(atleast in his perception).I do have an inkling why he did what he did.More on that later.

[devesh]

at he most basic level, Christianity and Islam are DESERT religions. when these ideologies are enforced on lush, and agriculturally fertile lands, social/cultural/ideological deracination will follow. man made environmental disasters also become widely prevalent. you take a man out of the desert, and put him near the lush tributaries of the Rhine river or in the Ganges delta, he will go on a wild destructive orgy b/c he has no idea how to nurture, nourish, and benefit from such a rich land.

PRC, with an imposed Western ideology of Communism (authoritarian top-down dictatorship), with strong overtones of control ideology similar to Desert religions, is following the same path. the aggressive rape of the rich fertile lands of Eastern China will lead to environmental catastrophe. and it will take several generations, if not centuries, to recover from that disaster.

Rudradev ji's post on Western history is a very interesting one. I am saving it for future reference. the "third school" is a very important concept. as we develop Bharat's version of world history, this phenomenon in Europe must be paid careful attention to.

but continuing on Rudradev ji's ideas, I would say that Germanic fascination with Dharmic ideologies was a sort of "return" to the roots. before Christianity conquered Germany, the indigenous tribes had a remarkably well develop cultural paradigm which was similar to the Jewish emphasis on "homeland." the Germanic tribes were highly environmentally conscious and had a cult like emphasis on the "land." it is very similar to what Brihaspati ji was explaining about Japan going into a "cult" mode. Christianity did a very good job of removing that "memory" from German civilizational consciousness, and starting in the lat 19th century, as Europe discovered India's rich heritage, it was like a "blast from the past" for them. this was especially true in Germanic Europe. the Germans saw in Indic civilization very similar aspects to what they originally had, before Christian imperialism took over.

[sanjeevpunj]

We have had Ashwathama who let loose terror during the Mahabharata, and was eventually cursed to crawl the earth till the very end if time, and they say he still can be seen crawling in Kumbh melas, where he attends to atone for his sins.Such deep is the retribution.This guy has basically earned a place in such a list of souls who will receive curses.

[Dhu]

It you dug down and asked them, they all believe they are doing Gods work, the Christian god. The Bible, however twisted, is still their literal reference point.

For instance they oppose the Idea of allowing foreign converts into the Christian community.

In other words, the white racists are preventing the expansion of deculturating monotheism and the creation of the native fodder class!! How to deal with such neanders!! Just as Enlightenment stopped the Intra-Christian bloodletting, a new secularism is needed to stop the intra-monotheist bloodletting. Let's save our energies for the unsaved.