Indian Army: News & Discussion

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Aug 2011 19:39

Army asks Def Min for clarifications on Chief's age issue
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Army-asks ... 36639.aspx
Army has asked the defence ministry to spell out reasons for its decision to treat May 10,1950 as Army Chief Gen V K Singh's date of birth. A letter has been written by Army's Adjutant General's (AG) branch to the defence ministry to know the reasons for the basis
of its decision to treat May 10, 1950 as Army Chief's date of birth and not May 10, 1951, as contended by Gen Singh, sources said in New Delhi.

The communication comes after the defence ministry issued a directive to the Army asking the AG's Branch, the official record keeper of the Army, to change its records and register May 10, 1950 as Singh's date of birth.

The decision of the defence ministry, reached on the basis of the opinion given by the Attorney General and the law ministry, was conveyed to the Army Chief on July 22.

Following this, the Army chief had sought views from former Chief Justice R C Lahoti and former Solicitor General Gopal Subramaniam, who opined in his favour.

It is important for the AG's Branch to change the date of birth records of the Army chief as then only the Military Secretary branch would issue a letter to the Army chief conveying his due date of retirement next year.

Will our Spotless AKA become..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Aug 2011 20:11

ticky wrote:
rohitvats wrote:. If need be, he should approach the court; the GOI/Babus need to understand that they can fvck around with services.
Typo??? of all the damn place and time to occur, ain't it ?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Aug 2011 20:13

Surya wrote:shudders at the name of the former COAS.

The misfortune of the IA to have suck lousy men as COAS

True words....

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 29 Aug 2011 20:39

Dont forget, all appointments of this sort are carefully 'managed' by the bureaucracy's 'succession plan', and approved by the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet. Gen Deepak Kapoor's name may cause shudders, but it was a name thoroughly approved of by the establishment...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Aug 2011 23:42

And isn't the Adarsh scam hanging on Gen Kapoor's fame?

Looks like a clear case of politicrats deciding to get rid of an inconvienent general and tarnish his name at same time.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 29 Aug 2011 23:58

Worth watching every minute

Is he the same person who was the army spokesperson during kargil?

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 30 Aug 2011 01:36

Video seems a bit motivated, and frankly, reeks of character assassination.

1. Even if the news about his son is true, he is not responsible for his sons actions.

2. He was not in command of any UN mission where sexual misconduct was reported. That alleged sexual misconduct is also under investigation, and not proven.

3. The story about Chittisinghpura makes no sense. What Bikram Singh said about AFSPA was correct.

4. Trinamul MP's assertions are quite routine stuff. Govt officers often face this sort of flak from chaps they dont oblige.

None of this means I dont think that VK Singh has a strong case...

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 30 Aug 2011 01:38

ramana wrote:And isn't the Adarsh scam hanging on Gen Kapoor's fame?

Looks like a clear case of politicrats deciding to get rid of an inconvienent general and tarnish his name at same time.

I agree. All Im saying is, that whatever Gen. Kapoor was, he was put there by the establishment only.

And yes, Gen Bikram Singh is Col. Bikram Singh of Kargil war media fame.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Aug 2011 18:18

Indian Army gets jungle warfare training base in Narayanpur, Chhattisgarh

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 31 Aug 2011 21:20

chackojoseph wrote:Indian Army gets jungle warfare training base in Narayanpur, Chhattisgarh

A good development, rather belated though. This would give IA a decent foothold in the Naxal infested region, create a facility to train IA as well as para-military forces in Jungle warfare in the Deccan which is becoming crucial in our fight against Naxals.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 31 Aug 2011 22:51

A soldier's emotional journey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuFnIDx6 ... r_embedded

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 01 Sep 2011 06:22

No unity with MoD: Forces tell PM

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 Sep 2011 15:07

Pakistan says three of its soldiers shot dead by Indian troops in Kashmir

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 01 Sep 2011 15:08

abhishek_sharma wrote:No unity with MoD: Forces tell PM

Only a Babu could come up with this explanation: "We have renamed MOD, so we are now integrated. Case closed". Ive never heard anything so dumb in my life.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 01 Sep 2011 15:26

JTull wrote:Pakistan says three of its soldiers shot dead by Indian troops in Kashmir

The first thing I was reminded of was the beheading of 3 Indian soldiers. Might as well be the retaliation BRFites spoke of then

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Sep 2011 15:49

JTull wrote:Pakistan says three of its soldiers shot dead by Indian troops in Kashmir

Stupid old BBC. They can post the Paki version of stories, hiding the reality.
The Pakis tried to push in terrorists and they provided the cover fire. Indian forces retaliated. In the exchange of firing, 3 Pakistani soldiers got killed. We lost one brave soldier.
Pak troops violate ceasefire twice, three soldiers killed

An Indian JCO and three Pakistani soldiers were today killed in a heavy exchange of fire in Keran sector in north Kashmir after ceasefire was violated from across the border, officials said.

Pakistan violated the ceasefire twice in Keran sector as Indian troops foiled an infiltration bid after exchanging fire with militants that left the JCO (Junior Commissioned Officer) dead.

"There were two ceasefire violations in Keran sector of Kupwara district from across the Line of Control since 2000 hours Wednesday," Defence spokesman Lt Colonel J S Brar said.

The JCO, who was killed, was identified by the army as Naib Subedar Gurdayal Singh.

Mr. Brar said the first ceasefire violation took place at 2000 hours on Wednesday and the firing from other side of LoC continued for nearly 50 minutes.

The second ceasefire violation began at 1100 hours on Thursday and the exchange of fire was continuing till last reports came in, he said.

Official sources said the Pakistani troops stationed at Saheli post opened unprovoked firing at Shalapathri post on Indian side of LoC yesterday, leaving a soldier injured.

The Pakistani troops used mortars and heavy weapons to target the Indian position, which was retaliated.

The ceasefire violations on Eid day came after troops foiled an infiltration bid in the same area.

The sources said the ceasefire violations from Pakistani side were apparently aimed at giving cover to militants trying to infiltrate into Kashmir ahead of snowfall which will close all passes along the rugged terrain of LoC.

Pakistan Army spokesman Major General Athar Abbas told Geo News that three Pakistani soldiers were killed in the gun battle. He claimed that Indian forces had fired across the border saying it was "unprovoked".

He identified the soldiers as belonging to irregular Mujahid battalion.

Mr. Abbas said the soldiers had been moving between forward posts when they got lost in bad weather in the Neelam valley.

He said a meeting has been requested with local Indian commanders to investigate the violation.

Reacting to Pakistan army's claim, Brar said there was no ceasefire violation from Indian side on Tuesday night.

"There was an infiltration bid by militants in Keran sector which was foiled by our troops. We lost one JCO in the operation," Mr. Brar said.

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Sep 2011 18:16

Pakistan Army spokesman Major General Athar Abbas told Geo News that three Pakistani soldiers were killed in the gun battle. He claimed that Indian forces had fired across the border saying it was "unprovoked".

He identified the soldiers as belonging to irregular Mujahid battalion.

WTF is a irregular mujahid battalion?

I guess that IA finally decided to target the TSPA posts which were pushing the scum across after having earlier watched the same posts openly hosting these scum.
Maybe the local IA commander has finally had enough and any such TSPA posts hosting pig parties will now be treated as "collateral damage"

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 01 Sep 2011 18:20

^^^If that is what it is, welcome, high time too.When they do it all the time, and we have one or two deaths, and then after border meetings things still do not change,and the actions are repeated,it is high time we begin to pay back.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 02 Sep 2011 01:15

sum wrote:WTF is a irregular mujahid battalion?

Something like our TA H&H Bns

eg:

801 Mujhadeen Battallion
647 Mujahideen Battalion

jagbani · Post by **jagbani** » 02 Sep 2011 13:00

Check whats the both side party saying about this attack

"The soldiers were moving from one post to another along the border when they came under fire by Indian forces," said Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, Pakistan army spokesman.

Lt. Col. J.S. Brar, Indian defense spokesman for the disputed Kashmir region, said there were two violations of the cease-fire on the Line of Control, the de facto border between Indian- and Pakistan-administered Kashmir

http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/fulls ... 02_145420-

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Sep 2011 22:23

The unsung hero of the Kargil War

India's intelligence agencies were blind to the movement and locations of Pakistan army formations before the Kargil War in 1999. The Indian army went into the war relying on an outdated Order of Battle or orbat (locations and dispositions of troops) provided by the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW) and Military Intelligence (MI). The intelligence began trickling in only after an Indian army officer pretended to be a Pakistani. He directly dialled into their formations and extracted intelligence on their movements.

Colonel Pankaj Kanwar says he made approximately 6,000 phone calls between May and July 1999, directly contacting over 200 Pakistani infantry and armoured units. Through brief conversations, he ascertained the movement, deployment, casualties and morale of the Pakistan army. This gave the Indian army information about the troop movements of its nuclear-armed rival. Some of this intelligence may have enabled it to assess that Pakistan was unlikely to expand the conflict beyond Kargil.

Now posted in Kanpur, Kanwar is upset about not getting his due for Operation Dial Hard. In a detailed complaint sent to army chief General V.K. Singh on June 12 this year, the latest in a series of letters filed over the past decade, Kanwar says his contribution was overlooked by his superiors who took all the credit.

In May 1999, Brigadier Rakesh Goel, head of mi25 in Military Intelligence (Pakistan desk) asked Kanwar, then a Major, to dial Pakistani units to extract information. The Indian Army had already begun Operation Vijay, its offensive to recapture the icy heights of Kargil from Pakistani intruders. The MI's agents had been unable to get through the border because of the heavy deployment. The Indian army wanted to know how Pakistan's orbat had changed in response to the Indian offensive.

Kanwar used an STD booth inside the Delhi cantonment to dial into Pakistani military exchanges. He made his first effective call on June 4, 1999, to an army unit in Peshawar. "Thereafter, I never looked back," he writes. Pretending to be 'Major Iqbal' or 'Major Hassan' and speaking chaste Punjabi, he asked to be connected to a particular formation. Once the operator connected him to the unit, he asked for a fictitious army officer. He kept his ears open for any scrap of information that the person at the other end revealed, ascertaining which unit it was, where it was located and whether it had moved.

He used a civil-to-military code to dial into almost all the units and formations of the Pakistan army, including those in remote army locations like Bannu and Kohat. Kanwar made his calls either early in the morning, before the offices opened, or late in the afternoon, when the officers were away. He pulled rank to extract bits of information from non-commissioned officers, duty clerks and junior officers. Among the important breakthroughs, he established that the Peshwar-based 11 Corps and Quetta-based 12 Corps had deployed along the border with India. He also discovered that "approximately 50 per cent of our orbat on Pakistani formations was wrong".

Kanwar also dialed the Lahore home of Captain Mazarullah Khan, a Northern Light Infantry officer. The number was discovered in a bunker by Indian troops on the Kargil heights. Speaking directly to the young officer who had been wounded and evacuated from Kargil, Kanwar established that it was indeed Pakistani army regulars who had occupied the heights. Kanwar did not record any of his conversations but maintained a file and notes.

After the war, Kanwar was told that his citation was not accepted because it would reflect adversely on the preparedness of MI25 and intelligence units deployed around the war zone. His superiors did not inform the director-general of MI or the army chief about his contribution. Kanwar is a bitter man because his service record does not even carry even a mention of his contribution to the Kargil war. "My contribution was suppressed and diluted on the pretext that it was Brigadier Goel's modus operandi and, besides, there were other officers who contacted the Pakistan army during the war," he writes in his letter to the army chief.

"I haven't heard of this case before but why should the officer be rewarded only for doing a duty assigned to him? Awards are given only for exceptional tasks beyond the call of duty," says General V.P. Malik, the then army chief.

"What Colonel Kanwar did in the midst of a war was extraordinary. He used his ingenuity to extract information on the real-time movement of troops," says Kanwar's lawyer T.K. Joseph. Last year, the officer's representation was rejected by the Armed Forces Tribunal on the ground that it "lacked the expertise to assess the merits of the case". The verdict has turned Kanwar, the phone-caller, into a letter-writing petitioner determined to get justice.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Sep 2011 01:24

^^^Something similar was attempted on Indian units as well.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Sep 2011 02:48

not attempted - happens all the time - especially in Dilli

There are orders now NOT to forward calls unless the party knows who they want talk to and what extension they are at.

With cell phones there is more danger.

We are still a chat happy people (me included)

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 03 Sep 2011 03:49

Army chief knocks on PM's door to resolve DoB row

It has now come to light that when the defence ministry was examining his date of birth controversy earlier this year, the Army chief had sought the intervention of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in the matter.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Sep 2011 04:41

^^^ What is wrong with the Chief? Why can't he just serve his term and them demit office? Every Chief knows - from the day he becomes Chief - his end of tenure date. IIRC their official appointment order lists that date. What will one extra year of being Chief give him? The man is tarnishing the image of the Army.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Sep 2011 05:00

Well not really.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Sep 2011 06:59

As per news reports, almost all his ACRs had his original DoB. It is only when he became a contender for the the top position that his date became contentious.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 03 Sep 2011 07:33

It's MoD under 'so called sant antony' which is tarnishing the image of army/country, not Gen. Shri V.K. Singh.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Sep 2011 07:51

putnanja wrote:As per news reports, almost all his ACRs had his original DoB. It is only when he became a contender for the the top position that his date became contentious.

This is the landmine that his predecessor had left for him.

Knowingly, wantonly and maliciously.

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Sep 2011 10:01

"I haven't heard of this case before but why should the officer be rewarded only for doing a duty assigned to him? Awards are given only for exceptional tasks beyond the call of duty," says General V.P. Malik, the then army chief.

He is right, medals and commendations should be given only for going to Poland during war for xyz reasons

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Sep 2011 10:39

He also discovered that "approximately 50 per cent of our orbat on Pakistani formations was wrong".

Is our situation any better now?

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 03 Sep 2011 10:59

Rakesh wrote:^^^ What is wrong with the Chief? Why can't he just serve his term and them demit office? Every Chief knows - from the day he becomes Chief - his end of tenure date. IIRC their official appointment order lists that date. What will one extra year of being Chief give him? The man is tarnishing the image of the Army.

Yes, he's made his point, but it wasn't accepted. Just move on. All this politics especially among the Army commanders is not good.

jai · Post by **jai** » 03 Sep 2011 13:54

Rakesh wrote:^^^ What is wrong with the Chief? Why can't he just serve his term and them demit office? Every Chief knows - from the day he becomes Chief - his end of tenure date. IIRC their official appointment order lists that date. What will one extra year of being Chief give him? The man is tarnishing the image of the Army.

Because he's been wronged. Because it's about principles - and this one is a highly principled officer if his record is anything to go by.

He deserves it by his merit, why should he be denied what is rightfully his just to accomodate some one's proxy with dubious credentials? This is also a fight against corruption at the highest levels that needs to stopped - that's why.

He is in a very strong position legally and is being polite so far in following the official redressal mechanism . He would be well within his right to approach the courts if he's denied justice by the internal mechanisms.

On a serious note the last time we had a lizard problem Nehru had his proxy running the army and we all know what happened, we have a similar situation brewing up again, and vks followed by parnaik is the right set of officers to have as chiefs to ward off the current challenges. Now is certainly not the time for political appointees - not in the defense forces any way - which is the only sacred bastion left in the country which still has it's ethos intact which should not be allowed to be killed by selfish politicians.

Now aka and mms need to understand the beating their reputation will take as the govt if the chief was to take them to court. Imagine the furore it my cause in the forces knowing that the govt is giving a raw deal to their chief who has had no choice but to take things to court. Imagine what a laughing stock this govt will be in the international media - I am sure the lizard and the pigs will laugh themselves silly.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Sep 2011 16:39

Rakesh wrote:^^^ What is wrong with the Chief? Why can't he just serve his term and them demit office? Every Chief knows - from the day he becomes Chief - his end of tenure date. IIRC their official appointment order lists that date. What will one extra year of being Chief give him? The man is tarnishing the image of the Army.

Sirji, if a man is publicly declared a liar and a cheat by the govt, should he not fight for his honour? Or should he sit back and be branded so for the rest of his life?

His DOB according to his class X board certificate is 1951...I don't even see how the govt can have the nerve to continue with this charade.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Sep 2011 18:32

You see, the age problem is a big issue for people born pre 1980. Those days records were hard to come. A lot of people have same problem. The awareness, especially in villages. Most Army folks were from villages.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 03 Sep 2011 18:39

Piecing together peace

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 03 Sep 2011 18:41

^^

ChackoJosephji, the army chiefs Class X certificate is perfectly clear. It is not a question of villages. The Chiefs father was also an officer. And he attended Birla Public School Pilani, not some village school.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Sep 2011 18:48

ASPuarji,

I was talking in general and not about General. :p Normally, illetrate folks had no idea on birth and death certificates. Those days age fudging was a rage. Be it for enrolling into a school or marriage or govt job. A lot of Armed Forces folks suffer from same problem. All they had to do was estimate how many Jatras or kumbs or some other imp event they were born. Get it from the panchayat and those who were luckier, from courts.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 03 Sep 2011 19:06

Chackoji, if you are not talking about the General, then why are you making these statements in the same breath as those about the General, starting off in response to a post about him with "you see..."? No doubt illiterate folks had some problems. But neither the General, nor his forefathers were illiterate, so this statement does not seem to be Germane to anything.

It makes as much sense as my discussing the mating habits of the common Elk here.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Sep 2011 22:51

ASPuar wrote:Chackoji, if you are not talking about the General, then why are you making these statements in the same breath as those about the General, starting off in response to a post about him with "you see..."? No doubt illiterate folks had some problems. But neither the General, nor his forefathers were illiterate, so this statement does not seem to be Germane to anything.

It makes as much sense as my discussing the mating habits of the common Elk here.

Correct sir. I was putting up a general trend what existed then. There has to be some angle why this descripancy came up. Was his BMI not matching his age? Or something else?

There was a kid in class whose age was one year bigger. When he was born, the church recorded the date of birth (I am not sure abt others, I know that church's birth certificate is an accepted document by GOI. So is X calss certificate). He was one year late in admissions and his folks fudged and got him into the school with one year less. It was told that his folks somehow managed to edit the baptism certificate.

People fudge for different reasons. I am taking a view that it was a eyebrow raising practice those days and today its being looked down.