The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 19:09

Eh!!

Pranab Mukherjee just said in his speech that UID is for all residents of India, not only the citizens!!!

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 27 Aug 2011 19:15

Rahul M wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:If corruption is such a #1 problem why are we growing at 8%+. Keep in mind during the British era, when apparently India was clean as the driven snow, growth rate was often 1% or less.
on the contrary corruption in british era was even more pervasive, there just wasn't any public awareness of the issues. why do you think an India posting was a much sought after job ?
the stiff upper lipped brits didn't take bribes, just 'gifts' from the natives who wanted to be in his 'good books'. the Indian underlings took their cue from them and were as corrupt. our current system merely continues british era corruption.
find people who worked in those times and you will get enough stories about massive corruption, only many would not call it bribery due to cognitive dissonance.

coming to human development, the money spent on public healthcare, education, poverty alleviation etc is quite substantial. without corruption there is little doubt that the problems would be much smaller. remember rajiv gandhi's comment that only Re1 of 100 spent reaches the poor ?

Any book on the 'Raj' will describe the level of corruption and outright loot -right from the beginnings in Bengal. They however did put in better rules and followed the law in their own country.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 19:19

LS adjourned. No voice vote!! What now?

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 27 Aug 2011 19:21

Why adjourn?

Didn't they promise voice vote?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 27 Aug 2011 19:22

Well, I remember in the first KBC series way back, a participant (BSc gold medallist in physics) was asked a question somewhat around these lines: What is the decimal equivalent of 1/100. Four choices (decimal numbers) were given, and the gold medallist made a wrong call.

The girl did not know about ANNA Hazaare and the lok pal movement.. the episode was shot last week... It is possible that 30% of the Indian population has no clue with respect to the lok pal bill. How do you expect them to complain ?

VinayB · Post by **VinayB** » 27 Aug 2011 19:26

Reddy wrote: In one of such pointless discussions we came across some theories that are related to social networking and such. I don't remember the details but, according to these theories any network has some key nodes and if you remove those nodes the whole network will collapse. Anyhow, our all night boozing and discussion on corruption lead us to bumping off couple of nodes to set the whole system on track.

Very appealing idea, but looks easier said than done. One can visualize a 'but brutus is an honorable man' type speech identifying the nodes and then the people picking up..

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 27 Aug 2011 19:30

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 758601.cms

voice vote tomorrow

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 38531.aspx

Voice vote without divison following debate

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 27 Aug 2011 19:30

asashi wrote:
Some people live in the world of their own, completely impervious to the larger issues in the society. We see such people not only in India, but in US too. People pay attention to issues important to them. Obviously for this lady, her family and her religion are important and movies/akshay kumar gives the necessary diversion.

I am referring to her lack of awareness about the whole anna/LOK-PAL movement..

even the dumbest new yorker I met (the kind of guy who cannot locate US on the map) was aware of the corruption in
New York State Thruway Authority...

Even a high school drop out hill billy from North Carolina is aware of his citizen rights and knows whom to approach to if he faces trouble...He knows his legal rights when he is arrested...

US has a literacy rate of 99% , while 25-30% Indians are illiterate...

Ever wondered why congi's keep getting re-elected?

How do you suppose they ll make use of the lokpal ombudsman if they don't even know about it?

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 27 Aug 2011 19:34

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 38595.aspx

Anna to break fast tomorrow at 10 am

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 27 Aug 2011 19:35

vijayk wrote:Why adjourn?

Didn't they promise voice vote?

"Thumping of Desks" is as good as voice vote. Times Now confirming it from the Speaker herself. But it had nothing to do with the JLB. It was just about the three demands; and they all agreed it was good. Seriously, no move made to table the bill.

This is all a good opportunity for us all to learn how our system works. I wish the TV channels took a break, from all the yelling, and gave a 2-mintue PPT presentation of certain processes.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 27 Aug 2011 19:40

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 759752.cms

Pranab Mukherjee on Saturday moved a resolution conveying the sense of the House on the Lokpal Bill in the Lok Sabha but no voting took place on the motion.

Lok Sabha Speaker Meira Kumar adjourned the Lok Sabha till Monday.

There seems to some confusion over procedures of the Lok Sabha. "Thumping of the desk is akin to passing a motion by the House," says Harish Salve.

Some of the important points of the Lokpal resolution passed by Lok Sabha are:

*An effective Lokpal at the Centre and Lokayuktas in states be set up.

*Employees of centre and state governments to be brought under purview of Lokpal and Lokayuktas respectively.

*All government departments to have citizen's charter with timeline.

With a copy of resolution and a letter from PM Manmohan Singh, Union minister Vilasrao Deshmukh would now go to Ramlila Maidan to meet Anna Hazare.

VinayB · Post by **VinayB** » 27 Aug 2011 19:50

sum wrote: Super details...the most interesting thing which caught my eye was:

Some eager Congress MPs told the media that Rahul would go to the Ramlila Maidan with a glass of juice and a promise to raise Hazare's concerns with the Government. But it didn't happen.
Hmmmm.....isnt this what BRF had predicted as the endgame? So something happened which caused the entire game to exit the prepared script and go into tailspin?

Some aspects of the planning around Anna (even acknowledged by Kejiriwal in an article posted here) were about euphoria. The timing of April fast between world cup and IPL. ToI headline at the end of that fast was 'India wins again'. If India had crashed out of world cup atleast this headline was ruled out, if not most of the euphoria.

Cho Ramaswamy tried to point out the role of media in a times now debate. Arnab was shouting him down. Pathetic to see him do that to Cho, who has a life time of sensible analysis and anti-establishment politics behind him.

The late stage exits from team Anna may be relevant to the question on endgame. ex-Karnataka Lokayukta was on stage with Anna telling people 'all governments have cheated us'. IKGujral == 2G, very smart. He is out. Ofcourse the maoist supporting Swamy. (and also late stage entries. Seshan suddenly had a draft very similar to Prince's ideas. when was the last time Seshan was in the news ?)

Some major stuff must have gone on here, but we can only speculate and float CTs

OTOH the game has not ended yet, so...

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 27 Aug 2011 19:52

I don't know, I still see this as some bakwaas. What is the big deal as it looks like a some way to break the fast. We passed several resolutions without the resolutions becoming laws. Now they passed a resolution and media is drumming up as great achievement. Next Anna will break his fast instead of dying for the nation on corruption cause. Tomorrow will be a new day and the parties will claim they and they themselves are the reason for victory.

Will the law get passed?

Tomorrow 10 am Anna will come out of fast and another drama for another day.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Aug 2011 19:53

gakakkad wrote:
Even a high school drop out hill billy from North Carolina is aware of his citizen rights and knows whom to approach to if he faces trouble...He knows his legal rights when he is arrested...

US has a literacy rate of 99% , while 25-30% Indians are illiterate...

It's the Indian schooling system that teaches you about inclusive secularist Maharaja Aurangzeb but not about how government works, or about the genocide in Bangladesh.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 27 Aug 2011 19:57

gakakkad wrote:US has a literacy rate of 99% , while 25-30% Indians are illiterate...

Though I agree with you partially, don't give much credibility with this 99% - 100% literacy claim. Kerala has been 100% literate for quite some time, but I don't see any great social responsibility, or more respect to public property etc. coming up with it. This 100% literacy have been hyped up to give all Mallus a feeling that they are some how 'smart & intelligent' because they are 'literate'. This is as good as saying a person who can read a destination board on the bus, also can understand law books and give authoritative explanations on them

.

VinayB · Post by **VinayB** » 27 Aug 2011 19:59

Pretty good speech by Sharad Yadav. http://in.news.yahoo.com/dont-mock-poli ... 32838.html

'They were eating gol-gappas, roaming with their dogs at India Gate. They then decided let us go to Ramlila Maidan,' he said.

He said that while the Lok Sabha had witnessed some unsavoury episodes during trust votes, it had also seen the then Atal Behari Vajpayee government losing a vote of confidence by one vote.

The JD-U leader said there were several people in Parliament who had risen through struggle but there were a few whose fathers had been leaders.

important for people who are listening to listen to such facts.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 27 Aug 2011 20:08

It is not about 99% literacy or 100% literacy. Its all about each individual understanding their long term "enlightened self interest", respect for self and respect for others. This doesnt come with literacy, it comes with intelligence and wisdom. Thousands of years ago, Indians built a magnificant culture, during Maurya rule and Gupta rule, or even Gurjar Pratiharas or Cholas and Pandyas, when literacy rate was no more than 10%. Certainly not an argument FOR illiteracy. Literacy is good for its own sake, but doesnt necessarily lead to civilization.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Aug 2011 20:08

Sachin wrote:
gakakkad wrote:US has a literacy rate of 99% , while 25-30% Indians are illiterate...
Though I agree with you partially, don't give much credibility with this 99% - 100% literacy claim. Kerala has been 100% literate for quite some time, but I don't see any great social responsibility, or more respect to public property etc. coming up with it. This 100% literacy have been hyped up to give all Mallus a feeling that they are some how 'smart & intelligent' because they are 'literate'. This is as good as saying a person who can read a destination board on the bus, also can understand law books and give authoritative explanations on them .

Lots of difference and also distance between literate and cultured, saar!!

But in some hundred percent literate states, sometimes literacy and culture do not always go hand in hand.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 20:14

gakakkad wrote:...
How do you suppose they ll make use of the lokpal ombudsman if they don't even know about it?

Hmmm...
Time to withdraw RTI. 'Cause most junta does not know how to file an application.
Meanwhile, toddlers should not join school, since they do not know anything about how the school system functions.
And all ye wanting to learn swimming, don't! You do not have any idea of buoyancy!

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 27 Aug 2011 20:21

It is the right time to compile a who is who list of high ranking people of society who supported and who opposed the bill. There is a huge section of the "intellectual group" like Javed Naqli and Kulnash Nayar who were not seen anywhere. We need to put these guys in the list of people who opposed the Lokpal as this is a Dharmyudh. These people need to be shamed in publc when ever they try to comeback again.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 27 Aug 2011 20:23

Is there anyone here who still thinks that this movement is backed by CIA, ISI, KGB etc

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 20:23

Anantha wrote:It is the right time to compile a who is who list of high ranking people of society who supported and who opposed the bill. There is a huge section of the "intellectual group" like Javed Naqli and Kulnash Nayar who were not seen anywhere. We need to put these guys in the list of people who opposed the Lokpal as this is a Dharmyudh. These people need to be shamed in publc when ever they try to comeback again.

I support that. Great Idea!

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 27 Aug 2011 20:24

Though I agree with you partially, don't give much credibility with this 99% - 100% literacy claim. Kerala has been 100% literate for quite some time, but I don't see any great social responsibility, or more respect to public property etc. coming up with it. This 100% literacy have been hyped up to give all Mallus a feeling that they are some how 'smart & intelligent' because they are 'literate'. This is as good as saying a person who can read a destination board on the bus, also can understand law books and give authoritative explanations on them.

Boss . this is the US OF A we are talking about. Not Panda republic of Lizardland... Washington stats tend to be accurate , unlike the ones from shaghai...

Even the homeless in US know of their rights... They know that they are eligible for medicaid...

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 27 Aug 2011 20:25

I support including not only NGOs but also Faith Based Organisations into LokPal bill

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 27 Aug 2011 20:26

Time to withdraw RTI. 'Cause most junta does not know how to file an application.
Meanwhile, toddlers should not join school, since they do not know anything about how the school system functions.
And all ye wanting to learn swimming, don't! You do not have any idea of buoyancy!

I did not oppose the bill..I just said it wont succeed till total reforms are brought out...We need 1 anshan per year to really bring about what we want.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Aug 2011 20:33

SwamyG wrote:
vijayk wrote:Why adjourn?

Didn't they promise voice vote?
"Thumping of Desks" is as good as voice vote. Times Now confirming it from the Speaker herself. But it had nothing to do with the JLB. It was just about the three demands; and they all agreed it was good. Seriously, no move made to table the bill.

This is all a good opportunity for us all to learn how our system works. I wish the TV channels took a break, from all the yelling, and gave a 2-mintue PPT presentation of certain processes.

our TV experts really need an education if they are unaware of the significance of desk thumping in our parliament and need the speaker to explain it.

the 3 demands are the main sticking points between JLP bill and govt's version, so this is a good first step. in effect, this means that at least temporarily the govt has withdrawn its own version of the lokpal bill.
also, it was unrealistic to expect the bill to be tabled in whatever form it is now, the full house is too unwieldy a body to go over every phrase and clause. the standing committee is the right place for the final drafting, now that the parliament has forwarded the bill to the standing committee. it also has the provision to call upon experts from outside (people like kejriwal f.e) to give their opinion. we could not have expected anything more.

what is needed now is for people to continue putting pressure on the govt so that the standing committee moves quickly and the bill is passed latest by the next session of the parliament.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 20:34

gakakkad wrote:

Time to withdraw RTI. 'Cause most junta does not know how to file an application.
Meanwhile, toddlers should not join school, since they do not know anything about how the school system functions.
And all ye wanting to learn swimming, don't! You do not have any idea of buoyancy!

I did not oppose the bill..I just said it wont succeed till total reforms are brought out...We need 1 anshan per year to really bring about what we want.

I agree to that totally. Sorry for any ache caused, gakakkad!

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 27 Aug 2011 20:35

What a farce, countryface going to Ramlila maidan to convey PM's message to anna.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Aug 2011 20:40

luxuryking countryface

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 27 Aug 2011 20:44

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 27 Aug 2011 20:45

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?732751

In initial reactions to Parliament recommending forwarding Anna Hazare's demands on Lokpal bill to Standing Committee, Team Anna member Kiran Bedi tonight said they were "very grateful" for the reconciliation in the largest interest of the country.

Bedi told PTI, "We are very grateful to the reconciliation in the largest interest of the country."

"Lets proceed now to build a honest India. Let each citizen now to vow neither to bribe not ask for. We should be vigilant here after," she said thanking all those who fought alongside.

Terming it as a "win-win" situation for both sides, another Team Anna member Medha Patkar said while there was no surrender of Parliament supremacy, there was also victory of people's power.

However, she still termed it the development as "part betrayal" as this was not something which was agreed during a meeting between Team Anna and Law Minister Salman Khurshid.

"But I will not like to say (these things) now at this historic time when people's power is at its peak," she said.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 27 Aug 2011 20:52

This has just stopped for sometime

(MK) Gandhiji must be happy.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Aug 2011 20:57

The acceptance of the final 3 points of the demands by the GOI signifies that the will of the people is supreme. Well done Anna and I am a happy man today. But as Anna said we are half way there. The war is yet to be won.

A beginning has been made....... the beginning of the beginning.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 27 Aug 2011 20:58

sumishi wrote:Eh!! Pranab Mukherjee just said in his speech that UID is for all residents of India, not only the citizens!!!

like social security number in US.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 21:00

Jarita wrote:
sumishi wrote:Eh!! Pranab Mukherjee just said in his speech that UID is for all residents of India, not only the citizens!!!
like social security number in US.

[OT]So illegals will get UIDs, is it?

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 21:04

Pratyush wrote:The acceptance of the final 3 points of the demands by the GOI signifies that the will of the people is supreme. Well done Anna and I am a happy man today. But as Anna said we are half way there. The war is yet to be won.

A beginning has been made....... the beginning of the beginning.

A great beginning, as exemplified by the cartoon a few posts above.

Waiting for the full yarn to be spun out!

ashashi · Post by **ashashi** » 27 Aug 2011 21:06

gakakkad wrote:

I am referring to her lack of awareness about the whole anna/LOK-PAL movement..

even the dumbest new yorker I met (the kind of guy who cannot locate US on the map) was aware of the corruption in
New York State Thruway Authority...

Even a high school drop out hill billy from North Carolina is aware of his citizen rights and knows whom to approach to if he faces trouble...He knows his legal rights when he is arrested...

US has a literacy rate of 99% , while 25-30% Indians are illiterate...

Ever wondered why congi's keep getting re-elected?

How do you suppose they ll make use of the lokpal ombudsman if they don't even know about it?

Being aware of corruption in India is not the same as being aware of Anna Hazare. People experience corruption every day, they do not have the same privilege with AH.

You have too high an opinion of Americans. I guess you exposure to Amecians is limited.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Aug 2011 21:16

rvishwak wrote:varun gandhi making a speech in loksabaha.... much more confident and forthright...very impressive

If the exact same words had been uttered by the reclusive baba yuvraaj, we would have entire clippings running for next 1 week on all channels and papers about how every word he uttered was the greatest thing to have been said since independence.

Its the bad luck of VG that he spoke this good speech from the wrong side...

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Aug 2011 21:25

Sorry about OT( couldn't resist) but in the Jay Leno video:

Q : Which president was called tricky dick?
A : Bill Clinton

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 21:32

sum wrote:Sorry about OT( couldn't resist) but in the Jay Leno video:

Q : Which president was called tricky dick?
A : Bill Clinton
...

Heard in the Mai no video
Q. Which prime minster is called I, Robot?
A. _______