PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

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Christopher Sidor
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Liu wrote:
1.Chinese needn't west fund any more.China has too much fund and 4 trillion forex is a burden. . instead, CHina is a fund-exporter.
That 4 trillion forex is your weakness. In the year 2012-2013, PRC's exports was about 3870 billion USD. out of this approximate 962 billion usd or about 25% is due to Japanese, Korean, American firms exporting to PRC intermediate goods which get assembled into finished products to export. The most infamous example is the iPhone in which it is estimated that PRC keeps only some 3% of of the total value.
Liu wrote: 2. west market indeed helped China accumulate the seed fund for the industrilazaiton of CHina. but now CHina does not rely on foreign market as you think ,because , PRC itself is now a huge market. Chinese buy more autos ,household durables ,electricity,houses and almost all products than USA ,in fact.
If PRC were such a huge market, then it would not panicked and given approximately 500 billion USD stimulus a few years back. Or the talk of mini stimulus would not have arisen again. Or the PRC's domestic companies would have retooled themselves to meet the domestic demand, which they have not done. The domestic consumption is being led by the massive credit binge.

Liu wrote: in the past, "everything was big in USA"
Now, "everything is big in CHina".
whoever is the winner of CHinese market, it is the winner of world market.
Alibaba is Chinese largest E-commerce company,so it is also the global largest E-commerce company ,more larger than E-bay+Amazon
ICBC is Chinese largest bank, so it is also the gobal largest bank;
Huawei win Chinese market ,so it is asskick Erisson and Cisco;
For a brief period of time even state bank of India was bigger than Citibank in terms of valuation. And you are right everything is big in PRC. The worlds largest credit binge happened in PRC when a combined value of US GDP was added to the entire PRC's banking. So a 7 trillion USD economy has a banking industry more than 3 times it's size with a total debt to GDP ratio in excess of 200%. The worlds most biggest and regressive regime is in PRC. So yes you are right, everything is big in PRC.

Liu wrote: 3. urbanizaiton will drive the high growth of CHina.
still almost 50% of Chinese, that is 600-700M CHinese, live in rural area, which is more than the whole EU.
most of those 600-700 Chinese are moving into Chinese urban areas, so they need more houses, road,electricty,household durbales,and autos.
morever, those 600-700 Chinese's salary is growing,and is enough to afford houses and electricty and household durbales..
i
4. in 1960s-1970s,,urbanization of Japan was finished .
I am really curious about how this euphemism about urbanisation driving growth will work out? Please explain to me how that will drive the growth? And how does that relate to urbanisation of Japan?
subhamoy.das
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

Liu Bhai,

Please leave NAMO ( MODI ji) aside. You have no idea what a master work execution expert he is. Just take this example. In just 6 months, he delivered the best result in the Indian elections in 30 years and flattened the entire opposition. He entered the national politics just 6 months ago. So this should give u the picture of the things to come in next 15 years. If, I were you, I will be dhoti-shivering, because from now you will have to face the Indian enterprises fully backed by a very aggressive Indian govt, something that never happened before, except for a short period between 1998-2004.

All the best.

Thanks.

Subhamoy
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Rishirishi »

Liu wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:Well India just voted in a very pro development government. Let us see what they can do.

I have been going to China since 94 (Shenzen) when the country was very much like India. My feeling is that chinease are too efficient and overdo it. The one child policy has lead to some serious problems. My frined has a daughter and both himself and his wife are singe children. So their daughter now is the single child among 4 grandparents and 2 parents. Its not healthy at all.

Likewise they have overstimulated the growth and China is in for a very hard landing. Expect a 30% correction and major turmoil for the leaders (who are very corrupt). Having said that the leaders have pulled hundreds of millions out of powerty, put food on the table, built (in my opinion) the greatest infrastructure ever. over 10 000Km of highspeed rail, impressive Hiway, ports, power supply, airports, ports, cities etc. Even if the economy contracts by 30%, even if the leaders steal vast ammounts. I think it is still impressive. The problem is the unthankfull public may not.
I am afraid that Modi can not birng many change to India, because India PM is caged by vote politics.

the development of India needs more land for industriazlation and infrastructure, less bureaucracy, less illteratcy and more pro-business laws of labour protection ,but modi can do nothing to change them.


1. can modi aquire enough land for industry zone and infrastucture-upgrading? I am afraid not.
when China labour cost was poor , land cost was also extreme low(10-20 years ago according to area) in China, Chinese government could aquire lots of low-cost land.
can modi does as CHinese govenrment did? NO. land cost in india is still too high ,although labour cost is quite low in india.
now, with labout cost growing, the land-cost growing much in CHina too. but CHinese government is rich enough to o pay huge compensation for land-aquiring and every household land-owners usually can get millions of RMB or several apartments for compensaiton.
Can modi pay such huge land compensation as Chinese government does now? no. because India government is not as rich as CHinese one.

2. can modi bring better public education( junior school and mid-school educaiton).
India pay too much attention to elite education in university but little attention to public education.
but most quality workers are trained by public education,instead of university educaiton.
that is why india has decent university but illteracy rate is still too high.
that is why india has may low-cost labour,but have only a few quality and disciplined workers.

3.can modi bring more po-business labour laws.
the current labour laws in india does't allow industry enteprise to dismiss labour easily, which increase employing cost quite high.
that is why india labour cost is low but employing cost is high.

4. india-style bureaucracy and corruption.
the largest corruption in india is "bureaucracy".
in China, if you do not provide any bribe, Chinese offiials might not help you much warmly ,but they usually will stop you and still get you business according to the routine.
. if CHinese official pocekt you money, they usually provide "One-stop service" and get you business done in days quite efficently.

however, in india, if you don't provide bribe, the only help india officials provide is not to stop or harm your business. even after india officials pocket you moeny ,"one-stop service" is still just a wish.
.
Dude, Modi just got dictator like powers with the landslide victory. People are behind him.

1
Land is no issue. The government already provides practically free land to industry. it creates Industrial zones and builds infrastructure arround it. Land can be misused or wastefull infrastructure is not build like in China. Everything has to be accounted for.

2
India has very good private education system. English skilles are way ahead of anything China can come up with. This opens for fast intigration with the global economy. Actually the problem in India is not freshly educated people, but people with experience. Labour supply is very good in India.

3 India will not and should not crate slave factories like China. The workers need to be payed and treated fairly. Having said that labour laws are not a problem in states like Gujrat. But Communist Bengal and kerala has some major issues. Modi now has to power to make the laws more flexible. For example by allowing seasonal labour and labour contract.

4
Corruption in China can be caught. Even ministers get caught in India. Modi will go hard on corruption, and in a open society corruption is easy to stop, if the government wants to. So far there has not been any will to stop corruption. But I believe it has dramatically come down in many states.
As for China, i think you are living in a fools paradise. The only way to prosper big in China is via Guanxi (connections). Basically connected to the Chinese communist party.
This poses a great danger, because the wealth of the nation is in the hands of some very few. And they are likely to flee China the moment things get hot. Tens of thousands of Chinease have made contingency plas of how to flee the country with all their wealth.

This may come hard on you, but China is in deep economic trouble. The Han are not any better or more talented. Chinas compared to others. India has the basics of a good fundamental leagal system (but not functioning due to neglect, but can be fixed if wanted), Has a free society and people who are partners. This allows for greater participation and formation of the country.

Lastly do not forget that India has been one of the fastest growing economies of the world since it opened up to the world. China started 10 years before India and also had HK, Taiwan and other overseas chinese who invested in the mainland.
Liu
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Liu wrote:
1.Chinese needn't west fund any more.China has too much fund and 4 trillion forex is a burden. . instead, CHina is a fund-exporter.
That 4 trillion forex is your weakness. In the year 2012-2013, PRC's exports was about 3870 billion USD. out of this approximate 962 billion usd or about 25% is due to Japanese, Korean, American firms exporting to PRC intermediate goods which get assembled into finished products to export. The most infamous example is the iPhone in which it is estimated that PRC keeps only some 3% of of the total value.
you misunderstand the meaning of FDI compeltely.

the greatest benefit of FDI is not how much pofit of Fdi is kept in the hosting country,but the jobs and industry chains FDI brings.

1. jobs with salary means a larger domestic market.
China has 300-600M peasant workers ,who can earn 300-800USD/monthly while india counterpart class earn much less.
that is why CHinese consume 10 times more autos ,steel and cement and many times more duables than India.
2. industry chains,which FDI brings ,privide solid base of industry upgrading.

Liu wrote: 2. west market indeed helped China accumulate the seed fund for the industrilazaiton of CHina. but now CHina does not rely on foreign market as you think ,because , PRC itself is now a huge market. Chinese buy more autos ,household durables ,electricity,houses and almost all products than USA ,in fact.
If PRC were such a huge market, then it would not panicked and given approximately 500 billion USD stimulus a few years back. Or the talk of mini stimulus would not have arisen again. Or the PRC's domestic companies would have retooled themselves to meet the domestic demand, which they have not done. The domestic consumption is being led by the massive credit binge.


case is very simple.
China has globle largest market ,but it also have global largest production.
morever ,its global largest production supplys more goods than its global largest market needs.

Liu wrote: 3. urbanizaiton will drive the high growth of CHina.
still almost 50% of Chinese, that is 600-700M CHinese, live in rural area, which is more than the whole EU.
most of those 600-700 Chinese are moving into Chinese urban areas, so they need more houses, road,electricty,household durbales,and autos.
morever, those 600-700 Chinese's salary is growing,and is enough to afford houses and electricty and household durbales..
i
4. in 1960s-1970s,,urbanization of Japan was finished .
I am really curious about how this euphemism about urbanisation driving growth will work out? Please explain to me how that will drive the growth? And how does that relate to urbanisation of Japan?
there are 2 cases about urbanization in the world.

1. urbanizaiton without modernization ,mainly in india and latin America
in this case,people move into cities but they can not find jobs in factories or other moder economy sectors ,so they have to stay in slum and live on traditional economy sectors.
those people can not afford modern household durables ,let alone houses and autos. so such urbanizaiton can not bring modernzation ,and can not expand domestic market demand for industry products.


2.urbanizaiton with modernization ,mainly in East Asia such as Japan.S.Korea ,Taiwan and China.
in this case, people move into cities and work in factories or other modern ecnomy sectors. their salary is much more than traditional economy sectors such as agriculture and they afford much more household durables such as AC ,washing machines ,house and autos.
with the urbanizition, people's consumption of modern durables increase rapidly, and demostic market expand rapidly.

however, once urbanization is finished, the upgrade for pre-industrialzed soceity to industrialzaiton society is also finished ,so the high-growth will also always end,that is why Japan,S.Kroea and Taiwan all slow their growth after they became high-income society.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by chola »

Complete waste of time to argue with chinis over democracy and communism.

1. The world's wealthiest countries are democracies. The world's crappiest nations outside Africa (whose problem is the lack government period ) are communist. Unless you are blind and stupid, there is no possible answer to this question. Democracy makes wealthy people and nations.

2. Why would we want to convince chinamen that they should take up democracy? Why would want the PRC to trend towards the US, Japan and Western Europe? How would that benefit us?

This why we should ban the half dozen Chini characters in BR. These are the same ones who visit us over and over and with the same arguments each and every time. It would at least be interesting if we gotten a few new 50-centers once in a while. But we don't even get that so there is no point in having them.

But the biggest reason why they should be banned is they bring up the dander of our jingoes and we go into these back and forths on lun measuring between us and the chini economy. We never get into a proper discussion on why the chini is even important in BR.

It is important because it is the one major economy contiguous with us. Our ability to access and profit from it would get us on the same level of global trade as Taiwan, Japan, S. Korea, etc. who have full access to the chini market. Otherwise, we will continue to be trapped with the rest of SAARC.

Secondly, the PRC's ability to create credit (and therefore infrastructure) as piss-poor nations does provide an useful lesson for other nations with the same base.

In order to do these things we have to have frank discussion on the basics like the actual size of the chini economy without going into reflexive jingoism because there are chicom members we are responding to.
Liu
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

let's come back to the topic: CHinese economy...so put the Democracy vs autocracy aside,ok?

I am a bank risk supervisor,so I know a lot about Chinese bank industry.

1.now.NPL (bad loans) indeed increased a lot after 2011. it is a hard time for bank risk supervisors like me.
However, unlike the imagination of most indians here,most NPL lie in private sectors ,instead of state-owned sectors.

2.of course, althought NPL has increased a lot, it is still much less that 15 years ago.

3.NPL can hardly hurt Chinese economy as much as 2008 cirsis did with USA's,because CHinese banks are still firmly controlled by CCP and CCP has many ways to write off bank NPL,directly or indirectly.

4. most NPL are mortages ,so if the price of real asset were no to make a dive , the ultimate loss would be limited.

5. the real trouble is that real cost of loans is increasing rapidly ,which erase the profit of manufacturing sectors .
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Austin »

Bingo! Premier Li Keqiang Punctures The Excess Savings Myth
May 11 – Reuters: “China’s war chest of foreign currency reserves has become a headache as its continued rise could stoke inflation in the long term, Premier Li Keqiang said… pledging to reduce the country’s trade surplus. China’s foreign exchange reserves, the world’s largest, grew by $130 billion in the first quarter, to a record $3.95 trillion… ‘Frankly speaking, foreign exchange reserves have become a big burden for us, because such reserves translate into the base money, which could affect inflation,’ Phoenix New Media Ltd quoted Li as saying… ‘From China’s perspective, macroeconomic controls could face tremendous pressures if the overall trade is imbalanced.’ China will take steps to reduce its trade surpluses with the rest of the world…”
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by kmkraoind »

@prchovanec China Three Gorges' shipping lock has reached full capacity, 19 yrs sooner than expected http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 1&cid=1202 … pic.twitter.com/X47EhTaJtS

Image

What might be that sand/mud?

Since dam construction has been completed, it might not be sand/mud from digging of the dame. From the distance, it seems the sand is headed for a construction boom site, if so, Chinese does everything in grand scale.
Christopher Sidor
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Liu wrote:let's come back to the topic: CHinese economy...so put the Democracy vs autocracy aside,ok?

I am a bank risk supervisor,so I know a lot about Chinese bank industry.
Liu can you please shed light on the following
1) How come a country, which would be PRC, whose entire economic size 6-7 trillion USD, end up with a banking industry whose estimated size is about 20-21 trillion USD?
2) Can we have a range in terms of NPL for the State owned banks of PRC and the Private Banks of PRC?
Liu wrote: 3.NPL can hardly hurt Chinese economy as much as 2008 cirsis did with USA's,because CHinese banks are still firmly controlled by CCP and CCP has many ways to write off bank NPL,directly or indirectly.
If it were that easy to write off NPL/NPA without any repercussions, then we would never had the Great Depression of 1930s.
Liu wrote: 5. the real trouble is that real cost of loans is increasing rapidly ,which erase the profit of manufacturing sectors .
One just cannot avoid the fallout of a big NPA/NPL spilling over to other sectors. What you are describing is a classic case. In case of 2008 financial crisis in USA, the problem was in a very specific type of mortgages, sub-prime ones, but very soon lending to the other non-real estate sectors dried up. As a consequence of this many US companies started to hoard cash. Offcourse there were other reasons too like most of the cash which American companies had was tied up in offshore safe heavens, which they could not bring to USA without attracting a tax penalty. But I digress.
Further when households are impacted they tend to cut down on consumption. Which impacts the domestic industry and leads to worsening of the NPA/NPLs for Banks and financial institutions.
One just cannot isolate the ripple effects from one sector from other sectors in the real economy. One can minimize the impact but not eliminate it entirely.

The problem with real estate bubbles is this. Firstly real estate structures degrade over time which reduces its value. The land on which the structure stands may or may not depreciate in value.
Secondly real estate structures like housing and commercial properties have one big drawback. They get built over a period of 3-4 years and used over a period of 25-35 years. So if one's economy were to be extremely dependent on real estate the euphoria will last for a period of few year but after that the bell starts to toll. If one just goes ahead and continues building to sustain the boom then one lands up in the situation that Dubai was. Dubai could be bailed out because it had a bigger brother who was inclined to step in.

Now many PRC posters and some non-PRC individuals have said that continued urbanization of PRC's citizenry would help. They can help in absorbing the massive housing and commercial real estate which has been built over in PRC in the past few years, but will they have the capacity to pay for these?

Let us assume that some 100 million PRC citizens were to get urbanized over a period of 5 years or 10 year. That would mean on an average some 20 million people moving to urban areas every year or 10 million people moving to urban areas every year, respectively. These citizens would come from rural background and would disproportionately get medium paying or low paying jobs. Hardly the type of citizens who would be able to absorb the estimated 65 million empty homes in PRC as of today. And that is assuming that no more excess real estate or ghost towns get built.

Let us assume that PRC would institute a bad bank of some sort which would take over the over supplied real estate or ghost towns. Paying their owners only the principal and not the appreciation. Then there are two issues. One is a moral hazard which will eventually lead to inefficiencies in the economy. The second how would CPC fund this bad bank? Writing off bad loans is one thing, writing off 65 million of estimated ghost residential towns and ghost commercial properties is another thing entirely.

When Lehman was about to collapse there was a single suitor left which wanted to buy Lehman, a UK bank by the name of Barclays. But the UK regulators were proving recalcitrant. So the US Treasury Secretary called up his counterpart in UK. These two countries are considered thick as thieves with terms as special relationship or closest ally being regularly thrown around. But the UK refused saying, "We (as in UK) would not import your (as in USA) cancer."
Christopher Sidor
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Christopher Sidor »

In PRC just like Europe the predominant source of credit is the Banking sector. Non-Banking financial sector would include entities like mutual funds, pension funds, insurance companies, etc. Case in point, next door to PRC is Japan whose Pension fund, i.e. GPIF pays an inordinately large role in the finances of Japan.
If the Banking sector and Non-Banking-Financial sectors are kept isolated from each other then one gets an alternative to Banks in times of Banking crisis. This did not happen in the US financial crisis of 2008. The 2008 Great recession was called a financial crisis and not a banking crisis as the Non-Banking-Financial Sector and the Banking sector got joint on the hip due to securitization of sub-prime loans.
So if the Banking sector stumbles and the Banking Sector is isolated from the Non-Banking-Financial Sector, then the Non-Banking-Financial Sector can pick up the slack to a certain degree. The benefit of having a Non-Banking-Financial sector was called by Alan Greenspan the failed oracle from USA called this the "spare-tyre" theory.
Basically according to this theory a country's finance can run on a single tyre, i.e. Banking Sector or on two tyres, i.e. Non-Banking-Financial Sector and Banking Sectors. The advantage is having two tyres is when one gets a puncture in one of the tyre.

I quote liberally from this speech
Alan Greenspan. Do efficient financial markets mitigate financial crises? 1999 Financial Markets Conference of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, Sea Island, Georgia October 19, 1999 wrote: Before the crisis broke, there was little reason to question the three decades of phenomenally solid East Asian economic growth, largely financed through the banking system. The rapidly expanding economies and bank credit growth kept the ratio of nonperforming loans to total bank assets low. The failure to have backup forms of intermediation was of little consequence. The lack of a spare tire is of no concern if you do not get a flat.
....
....
On the surface, financial infrastructure appears to be a strictly technical concern. It includes accounting standards that accurately portray the condition of the firm, legal systems that reliably provide for the protection of property and the enforcement of contracts, and bankruptcy provisions that lend assurance in advance as to how claims will be resolved in the inevitable result that some business decisions prove to be mistakes. Such an infrastructure promotes transparency within enterprises and allows corporate governance procedures that facilitate the trading of claims on businesses using standardized instruments rather than idiosyncratic bank loans. But the development of such institutions almost invariably is molded by the culture of a society.
....
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The antipathy to the "loss of face" in Asia makes it difficult to institute, for example, the bankruptcy procedures of Western nations, and in the West we each differ owing to deep-seated views of creditor-debtor relationships. Corporate governance that defines the distribution of power invariably reflects the most profoundly held societal views about the appropriate interaction of parties in business transactions. It is thus not a simple matter to append a capital markets infrastructure to an economy developed without it.
....
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Lack of transparency coupled with an implicit government guarantee for banks encouraged investors to lend too much to banks too cheaply, with the consequence that capital was not allocated efficiently. Poor bankruptcy laws and procedures have made recovery on nonperforming bank loans a long and costly procedure. Moreover, the lack of transparency and of a legal infrastructure for enforcing contracts and collecting debts in Russia are a prime cause of the dearth of financial intermediation in Russia at this time.
There are many concerns regarding PRC's economy and especially its Banking sector. They all are caused by two items
1) The type of governance which is carried out on PRC.
2) The Culture of the society which exists in PRC
Both of these feed on one other. If we were to try to divorce them to what is going on in PRC's wider economy and its impact on the world then we would having a discussion in a dark room without candles.
Liu
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Liu wrote:let's come back to the topic: CHinese economy...so put the Democracy vs autocracy aside,ok?

I am a bank risk supervisor,so I know a lot about Chinese bank industry.
Liu can you please shed light on the following
1) How come a country, which would be PRC, whose entire economic size 6-7 trillion USD, end up with a banking industry whose estimated size is about 20-21 trillion USD?
2) Can we have a range in terms of NPL for the State owned banks of PRC and the Private Banks of PRC?
1.the simplest answer is that GDP underestimates the scale of CHinese economy.
just as my prevous post refered,

nominal GDP might be the sole indicator that still shows CHina's economy scale is still smaller than USA.

other indicators ,such as electricity consumtpition,trade amount, duarale sales(autos,AC,PC,washing machines..etc), material consumption(cement,steel,ores..etc) and total freight, all show that CHina's economy is larger than USA and China's ahead is getting more consolidated day by day.

besides, CHina's nominal GDP is 9.4 trillion USD,instead of 6-7 triliion USD.


2. according to my personal experience, the open NPL ratio of most banks is between 0-2%;
considering that some NPL were hidden with Accounting tricks, the real NPL ratio might be a bit higher,maybe 2-4% .
that is to say, of 80 trillion RMB bank loans in CHina, maybe 1.6-3.2 trillion RMB is NPL.

BTW, accorlding to CHinese laws ,once its NPL ratio is surpass 4%, one bank will be warned by the authority and the bank president/the whole Senior management will usually be fired by CCP.
Liu wrote: 3.NPL can hardly hurt Chinese economy as much as 2008 cirsis did with USA's,because CHinese banks are still firmly controlled by CCP and CCP has many ways to write off bank NPL,directly or indirectly.
If it were that easy to write off NPL/NPA without any repercussions, then we would never had the Great Depression of 1930s.

1. CCP has more resources and leveages than other governments.
PLS remember that CCP is the common boss of CHinese center bank ,CHinese government and almost all banks in CHina.
CCP is also the ultimate owner of allmost real assets in CHina.

2.all game rules are regulated by CCP.
CHina is a one party politics

3.CHina succeeded in dealing with 2 trillion RMB NPL in 2000 or so,while CHIna's GDP was only 8 trillion RMB
so ,evern if NPL were 10 trillion RMB, it would not be hard for CHina to deal with it,when CHina's GDP is over 50 trillion RMB.

4. most of CHinese NPL are mortgage ,so the ultimate peril is much less than valuless poinsonous bonds of Fannie mae and Freddie MAC

5. don't overate the impact of "bankrupt"....don't foget,after Greece and Iceland bankrupted, people there still live a a much higher life quality than india
Last edited by Liu on 27 May 2014 09:22, edited 2 times in total.
Austin
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Austin »

China to ditch US consulting firms over espionage suspicion

State-owned Chinese companies will cease to work with US consulting companies like McKinsey and Boston Consulting Group over fears they are spying on behalf of the US government.

US consulting companies McKinsey, BCG, Bain & Company, and Strategy&, formerly Booz & Co., will all be snubbed by state-owned Chinese companies, the Financial Times reported, citing sources close to senior Chinese leaders.

“The top leadership has proposed setting up a team of Chinese domestic consultants who are particularly focused on information systems in order to seize back this power from the foreign companies,” a senior policy adviser to the Chinese leadership was quoted by the FT as saying.

“Right now the foreigners use their consulting companies to find out everything they want about our state companies,” the adviser said.

Last Thursday China announced that all foreign companies would have to undergo a new security test. Any company, product or service that fails will be banned from China. The inspection will be conducted across all sectors - communications, finance, and energy.

China has already banned Microsoft's Windows 8 operating system from government computers, according to Chinese state media agency Xinhua.

“Under President Xi Jinping, technology and implementation will look to be converging, so foreign tech firms should be very worried about their prospects,” Bill Bishop, an independent consultant based in Beijing, told the FT.

Chinese officials have said that government ministries, companies, universities, and telecoms networks are victims of US hacking, and will try to avoid using US technology in order to protect “public interest”.

The dictate follows the US Justice Department’s indictment of five Chinese military officers it suspects of committing cyber crimes against a number of major US companies, including US Steel, Westinghouse and Alcoa. The US accused the army officers of stealing trade secrets and even published their photos.

Beijing responded by calling the US a ‘robber playing cop’, and more recently said the US is a “mincing rascal” and involved in “high-level hooliganism”.

The US-China fallout came after revelations made by NSA contractor Edward Snowden that the US uses economic cyber espionage to spy on international competitors, including China.

The dispute is only the latest setback in relations between the world’s two largest economies. Issues like Ukraine, Syria, and North Korea have been divisive topics between the two superpowers.
Christopher Sidor
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Liu wrote: besides, CHina's nominal GDP is 9.4 trillion USD,instead of 6-7 triliion USD.
Even if we take your figure of 10 trillion USD, then also the banking industry size is more than twice of the so called nominal GDP. Contrast this with the US economic size and US banking size. Does this worry you?
Liu wrote: 2. according to my personal experience, the open NPL ratio of most banks is between 0-2%;
considering that some NPL were hidden with Accounting tricks, the real NPL ratio might be a bit higher,maybe 2-4% .
What is rule for defining a loan as non performing ?
Liu wrote: 1. CCP has more resources and leveages than other governments.
PLS remember that CCP is the common boss of CHinese center bank ,CHinese government and almost all banks in CHina.
CCP is also the ultimate owner of allmost real assets in CHina.
What extra resources does CCP have that other governments do not?
Liu wrote: 2.all game rules are regulated by CCP.
CHina is a one party politics
So how does this help PRC?
svinayak
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by svinayak »

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-27615575
Business opposition
Last year, Hong Kong, a city of just seven million people, hosted more than 54 million visitors, three-quarters of whom came from the mainland.

Amongst all mainland arrivals, nearly 60% came for just one day, mainly to shop.

By 2023, annual arrivals would exceed 100 million, according to a conservative government estimate.

At a time when many countries around the world are clamouring to ease visa restrictions on big-spending Chinese tourists, the government of Hong Kong has begun looking at ways to limit their numbers.

This week, Chief Executive CY Leung surprised reporters by confirming that officials had indeed discussed a controversial proposal to reduce the number of visitors from mainland China by 20%..

Chinese toddler pees in Hong Kong street, stirs online firestorm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... firestorm/
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by panduranghari »

Liu' wrote:1.the simplest answer is that GDP underestimates the scale of CHinese economy.
just as my prevous post refered,

nominal GDP might be the sole indicator that still shows CHina's economy scale is still smaller than USA.

other indicators ,such as electricity consumtpition,trade amount, duarale sales(autos,AC,PC,washing machines..etc), material consumption(cement,steel,ores..etc) and total freight, all show that CHina's economy is larger than USA and China's ahead is getting more consolidated day by day.

besides, CHina's nominal GDP is 9.4 trillion USD,instead of 6-7 triliion USD.
I agree with Liu. Due to poverty and absence of dole, most people in the east tend to work in a self employed capacity which does not register in the GDP indices. There was an article posted by Suraj, some time back in the Indian economy thread- it was from economist magazine. It stated that Indian unorganised business sector trumps the organised one by almost a factor 10. Conservatively, our GDP growth of 2% when castigated by Nehru as Hindu rate of growth! accounted only the organised sector. The article conclusively proved how measuring GDP in the eastern nations is flawed. So Liu is right. The real GDP of China is most certainly higher than USA. I don't think India is behind either. Perhaps India and China have gone back to the situation as it was in 1800 CE inspite of both being impoverished by the Abrahamics.

If Suraj ji is reading this, could you please post a link to that economist article please. It's a keeper.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

panduranghari wrote:
Liu' wrote:1.the simplest answer is that GDP underestimates the scale of CHinese economy.
just as my prevous post refered,

nominal GDP might be the sole indicator that still shows CHina's economy scale is still smaller than USA.

other indicators ,such as electricity consumtpition,trade amount, duarale sales(autos,AC,PC,washing machines..etc), material consumption(cement,steel,ores..etc) and total freight, all show that CHina's economy is larger than USA and China's ahead is getting more consolidated day by day.

besides, CHina's nominal GDP is 9.4 trillion USD,instead of 6-7 triliion USD.
I agree with Liu. Due to poverty and absence of dole, most people in the east tend to work in a self employed capacity which does not register in the GDP indices. There was an article posted by Suraj, some time back in the Indian economy thread- it was from economist magazine. It stated that Indian unorganised business sector trumps the organised one by almost a factor 10. Conservatively, our GDP growth of 2% when castigated by Nehru as Hindu rate of growth! accounted only the organised sector. The article conclusively proved how measuring GDP in the eastern nations is flawed. So Liu is right. The real GDP of China is most certainly higher than USA. I don't think India is behind either. Perhaps India and China have gone back to the situation as it was in 1800 CE inspite of both being impoverished by the Abrahamics.

If Suraj ji is reading this, could you please post a link to that economist article please. It's a keeper.
well, nomial GDP, as well as PPP,eletricity consumption, yearly total freight, and durable sales(such as auto), is just one of many indicators which metrics the scale of economy.

Generally speaking,
the rank of electricity consumption,yearly total feight ,durable sales usually is consistent with the rank of GDP.

for example
1.when Soviet/Japan was the second largest economy and their GDP was 60% of USA's , their electricity consumption was also about 60% of USA's.
however, CHina's GDP is about 60% of USA last year, but CHina consumed more electricity than USA.

2.when EU's GDP is almost equal to USA's, EU's yearly auto sale is almost equal to USA's.
When India's GDP is almost 1/9 of USA's, India's yearly auto sale is also only about 1/7 of USA's.
however, China's GDP is about 60 of USA"s, but China's yearly auto sale is 40% more than USA's...


3.sooooo,case is very clear that there is something wrong with GDP to metric the economy scale of CHina.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by ashish raval »

^^ did you factor in the exchange rate ?

Secondly you have to take average sample many years in the past to come to any conclusion. The short term jump is not a good indicator. Compare the number of SUV sold with say average price of 50k dollars vs. Number of SUVs sold in the same price bracket in China and it will give you a better indicator.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by TSJones »

,,,,,china ramps up spending to spur economy:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-ram ... 04132.html

China's central bank said on Wednesday it will keep monetary policy steady in 2014, even as the finance ministry said fiscal spending had surged nearly 25 percent in May from a year earlier, highlighting government efforts to energize the slowing economy.
Total fiscal spending in May rose to 1.3 trillion yuan ($208.75 billion), quickening sharply from a 9.6 percent rise in the first four months of the year.
The higher spending comes as the world's second-biggest economy got off to a soft start to the year, growing at its slowest pace in 18 months in the first quarter.
The economy has since shown some signs of stabilizing, but the recovery appears patchy and analysts do not rule out further stimulus measures, especially if the cooling property market starts to rapidly deteriorate.

Fiscal revenues rose 7.2 percent in May from the same month last year, slowing from a 9.2 percent rise in April. The ministry attributed the slower revenue growth in May to the slowdown in the economy and falling property transactions.

China's central bank has been describing its policy stance as "prudent" in recent years, even when it is clearly loosening or tightening the policy reins. At the moment, for instance, authorities are in a gentle easing mode to counter the cooldown in the world's second-biggest economy.

The People's Bank of China said the outlook for external demand was uncertain, capital flows were volatile, and financial risks were weighing on the economy.

The PBOC's pursuit of stable monetary policy contrasts strongly with the finance ministry's mini-stimulus, which saw total fiscal spending rise 24.6 percent to 1.3 trillion yuan ($208.75 billion) in May as it brought forward spending sharply, from growth of 9.6 percent in the first four months of the year.

Stimulus measures taken so far by Beijing include speeding up the construction of railway projects and public housing, as well as orders to local governments to fast-forward their fiscal spending to prime the economy for growth.

Central government spending rose 15.8 percent in May from a year earlier while local government expenditure soared 26.9 percent, the finance ministry said.

The PBOC said on Monday it will lower the reserve requirement ratio - the level of reserves banks must hold - for those banks that have sizeable loans to the farming sector and small and medium-sized firms. This is the second reduction following a cut in April aimed at rural banks.

To re-orient China's economy away from exports and investment and towards domestic consumption, China will also speed up interest rate liberalization this year and work on introducing deposit insurance.

Two separate programs that allow foreigners to invest in Chinese capital markets and Chinese investors to invest overseas will also be expanded.

The two schemes are known as qualified foreign institutional investor, or QFII, and qualified domestic institutional investor, or QDII, respectively.

Chinese leaders have ruled out any large stimulus as the country is still nursing the hangover from the 4 trillion yuan ($640 billion) stimulus implemented during the global crisis in 2008-09, which took local governments deep into debt.

Economic data for May released so far indicate the economy remains wobbly, with export growth picking up but imports unexpectedly falling.

Inflation picked up to a four-month high, easing concerns the country was slipping into a deflationary trend but remaining well below the government's comfort zone, giving Beijing ample room to step up policy support if necessary.

The yuan currency has also appeared to stabilize after a sharp slide earlier in the year, though traders are not sure if the PBOC is comfortable enough with the export recovery to allow the currency to start appreciating again.
(Reporting By China Economics Team; Editing by Eric Meijer & Kim Coghill)
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Anand K »

I remember an article by C Rangarajan himself about the growth crisis, not strictly the 2008 meltdown itself, in G7 and EU Markets spilling over into BRICs through trade and investment channels. This leads to mostly demand slack crisis (for China, since 2011), and in some cases a supply shock crisis (for India since, well 2010). Macroeconomic policies in these economies should therefore be very different from those in advanced economies. The focus should be on addressing supply shocks and full-on structural reforms, including investment in infrastructure through a change in the fiscal mix. Those countries (read China) overly dependent on external demand for growth, need to adjust by re-balancing demand from external sources to domestic. Well, they seem to be doing exactly that. Now if the recent Chinese QE gambles actually lead to this sort of fundamental restructuring remains to be seen....
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

TSJones wrote:,,,,,china ramps up spending to spur economy:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-ram ... 04132.html

China's central bank said on Wednesday it will keep monetary policy steady in 2014, even as the finance ministry said fiscal spending had surged nearly 25 percent in May from a year earlier, highlighting government efforts to energize the slowing economy.
Total fiscal spending in May rose to 1.3 trillion yuan ($208.75 billion), quickening sharply from a 9.6 percent rise in the first four months of the year.
The higher spending comes as the world's second-biggest economy got off to a soft start to the year, growing at its slowest pace in 18 months in the first quarter.
The economy has since shown some signs of stabilizing, but the recovery appears patchy and analysts do not rule out further stimulus measures, especially if the cooling property market starts to rapidly deteriorate.

Fiscal revenues rose 7.2 percent in May from the same month last year, slowing from a 9.2 percent rise in April. The ministry attributed the slower revenue growth in May to the slowdown in the economy and falling property transactions.

China's central bank has been describing its policy stance as "prudent" in recent years, even when it is clearly loosening or tightening the policy reins. At the moment, for instance, authorities are in a gentle easing mode to counter the cooldown in the world's second-biggest economy.

The People's Bank of China said the outlook for external demand was uncertain, capital flows were volatile, and financial risks were weighing on the economy.

The PBOC's pursuit of stable monetary policy contrasts strongly with the finance ministry's mini-stimulus, which saw total fiscal spending rise 24.6 percent to 1.3 trillion yuan ($208.75 billion) in May as it brought forward spending sharply, from growth of 9.6 percent in the first four months of the year.

Stimulus measures taken so far by Beijing include speeding up the construction of railway projects and public housing, as well as orders to local governments to fast-forward their fiscal spending to prime the economy for growth.

Central government spending rose 15.8 percent in May from a year earlier while local government expenditure soared 26.9 percent, the finance ministry said.

The PBOC said on Monday it will lower the reserve requirement ratio - the level of reserves banks must hold - for those banks that have sizeable loans to the farming sector and small and medium-sized firms. This is the second reduction following a cut in April aimed at rural banks.

To re-orient China's economy away from exports and investment and towards domestic consumption, China will also speed up interest rate liberalization this year and work on introducing deposit insurance.

Two separate programs that allow foreigners to invest in Chinese capital markets and Chinese investors to invest overseas will also be expanded.

The two schemes are known as qualified foreign institutional investor, or QFII, and qualified domestic institutional investor, or QDII, respectively.

Chinese leaders have ruled out any large stimulus as the country is still nursing the hangover from the 4 trillion yuan ($640 billion) stimulus implemented during the global crisis in 2008-09, which took local governments deep into debt.

Economic data for May released so far indicate the economy remains wobbly, with export growth picking up but imports unexpectedly falling.

Inflation picked up to a four-month high, easing concerns the country was slipping into a deflationary trend but remaining well below the government's comfort zone, giving Beijing ample room to step up policy support if necessary.

The yuan currency has also appeared to stabilize after a sharp slide earlier in the year, though traders are not sure if the PBOC is comfortable enough with the export recovery to allow the currency to start appreciating again.
(Reporting By China Economics Team; Editing by Eric Meijer & Kim Coghill)
it is a quite modest adjustment,because only small bank cab benifits from it
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Christopher Sidor »

So a second stimulus is being prepped up again. People must have been concerned about the growth rate falling drastically and below the expected value.

Another thing which really bothered me. When CPC put out a target of 7.5%, why did they choose this specific value? Why 7.5%, why not 7.3 or 7.9 or even 7%? What computations led to this mythical number of 7.5%?

I wonder if our Chinese friends can shed some light on this.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Vriksh »

How does china train skilled labor. Welders, Plumbers, Electricians, woodworkers, Metalworkers, heavy machinery operators. Are these professions a major sector of the economy? How big is the fraction of assembly line workers in the chinese economy?
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

Christopher Sidor wrote:So a second stimulus is being prepped up again. People must have been concerned about the growth rate falling drastically and below the expected value.

Another thing which really bothered me. When CPC put out a target of 7.5%, why did they choose this specific value? Why 7.5%, why not 7.3 or 7.9 or even 7%? What computations led to this mythical number of 7.5%?

I wonder if our Chinese friends can shed some light on this.
7.5% is a Compromise between expection and reality.

the growth of last year is 7.7% ,and many indicators shows that economy growth can not change much .
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

Vriksh wrote:How does china train skilled labor. Welders, Plumbers, Electricians, woodworkers, Metalworkers, heavy machinery operators. Are these professions a major sector of the economy? How big is the fraction of assembly line workers in the chinese economy?

1. the lessons in CHinese public education( I mean junoir school and middle school education) is usually much more esoteric and advanced than the counterpart in west counties and most developing countries.
for example,
most junior school students in CHina can master "Elementary arithmetic" while many middle school students in west counties can not.

Chinese middle school student usually already study calculus and other Higher mathematics,which is uauslly more harder than university lessons in other countries.

I still remember that when I was only 11 years old and just one junior school student, I had already studied "Pythagoras' theorem.
as I know, even senior middle school students in many west countries needn't study it.


so , as the result , a Chinese student might be one quite ordinary one in CHinese middle school, .but once he moved to USA or other countires, he usually might be the best and most outstanding student in the the middle schools in USA or other countries.


2. I still remember that some west medias report that Chinese shanghaiese student performce NO.1 and asskicking students from other countries in some trans-national tests
however, frankly speaking, Shanghaiese student, as well as students in beijing and other Chinese big cities, are famous for low-marks and poor-performance in Chinese nation-wide university entrance exam and just cowards under the protection of unfair resevation and quota systems.
for example, when I took part in university entrance exam in late 1990s, my marks would had been enough to be admitted to Beijing university, the best university in CHina, if I had been a student in Beijing.
However, I was not beijing student and there is much less quotas of Beijing univercity in the province than in Beijing, So I had no such chance and had to study in a unfamous unversity.


Without the pretection of reservation and quota system, most Shanghaiese/beijing students would be asskicked in a fair nation-wide university entrance exam.

3.70%+ of CHinese cellege graduates major in The natural sciences and engineering and less 30% of them major in The liberal arts such as laws.

however, in most developing countries and many west countries, cellege student tend to major in high-income prefessions such as laws and accounting.
so.usually 70% of college student in deveopming countries and many west countries major in liberal arts while only less 30% of them major in The natural sciences and engineering
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Vriksh »

Vriksh wrote:How does china train skilled labor. Welders, Plumbers, Electricians, woodworkers, Metalworkers, heavy machinery operators. Are these professions a major sector of the economy? How big is the fraction of assembly line workers in the chinese economy?
Liu my question remains unanswered. Can you shed some light.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

Vriksh wrote:
Vriksh wrote:How does china train skilled labor. Welders, Plumbers, Electricians, woodworkers, Metalworkers, heavy machinery operators. Are these professions a major sector of the economy? How big is the fraction of assembly line workers in the chinese economy?
Liu my question remains unanswered. Can you shed some light.
1. workes in CHina usually have middle school degree at least..they would usually accept training from factories or companies.

2.
when I was a junior school student, 80% people around me lived in rural area and lived on agriculture.
but now, maybe 1/3 -1/2 of them live on jobs in factories
1/3 of them work in service sectors or the government
maybe 20% or so of them still live in rural area but they are mainly the old people and live mainly on the remittance from the kids working in urban areas.

strictly speaking, young rural CHinese are not interested in farming any more and farming now is just a partial-time jobs of old Chinese people in rural area and is not the main income resource in rural CHina any more
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by TSJones »

China's fine tuning stimulus:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/chinas-fi ... 10548.html



BEIJING (Reuters) - China's piecemeal approach to loosening monetary policy this year may be discreet, but the cumulative effect is proving just as powerful as an outright cut in bank reserves.

Wary of being criticised for not doing enough to wean the world's second-largest economy off its reliance on easy credit and heavy investment, authorities have ruled out major stimulus even as growth slowed to an 18-month low in the first quarter.

Instead, the People's Bank of China (PBOC) has relied on four low-key adjustments that have added a total of 550 billion yuan ($88 billion) into the banking system, a calculation based on a Reuters poll and information from sources shows.

That is equivalent to an economy-wide 50 basis point cut in the reserve requirement ratio (RRR), the level of reserves that banks must hold, a splashier move which would also have released 550 billion yuan in one stroke.

The four moves -- two reductions in the RRR for selected banks and two big loans to commercial banks -- are designed to direct cash to where its needed in the economy, and thwart speculative investment.

Characterising these changes as a "fine-tuning", the central bank has been adamant that overall monetary policy has not changed and remains prudent.

"We need to take a holistic view about monetary easing," said Wei Yao, an economist at Societe Generale in Hong Kong.

"The approach is called 'fine-tuning' because they did it bit by bit, but the accumulated impact is not small."


MORE THAN MEETS THE EYE

Falls in the exchange rate and short-term interest rates have further loosened monetary conditions.

The rolling monthly average for the benchmark short-term interest rate, the seven-day bond repurchase rate, has fallen 110 points since April, when the stimulus steps began, to 3.7 percent. And the yuan has fallen 2.5 percent this year.

Investment bank JPMorgan compiles a monetary conditions indicator that tracks the impact of changes in China's credit growth, excess reserves, real exchange rate and one-year interest rates.

Liquidity has become more ample, said Zhu Haibin, an economist at the bank, with the indicator suggesting monetary conditions eased by about 20 percent in April from March.


PUMP-PRIMING?

The government has also made a number of fiscal policy announcements, including faster spending of budget funds, tax cuts for some industries, and infrastructure projects, but their immediate impact is harder to quantify.

On April 2, the government began its stimulus by saying that it would speed up construction of rail lines and build 18 percent more railway tracks this year compared to 2013.

In May, authorities sent out an urgent instruction to local governments to ramp up spending and finalise 2014 budget allocations by the end of June or risk losing the funding.

The threat looks to be working. Government spending in May leapt 25 percent from a year earlier, with infrastructure investment jumping 16 percent.

Money spent on unspecified public works such as parks, the third-biggest expenditure item at 451 billion yuan in the first five months of the year, bounded up by 22 percent.

But complicating matters is a sharp rise in outstanding fiscal deposits -- or unspent government income -- this year, up 19 percent at the end of April compared to the same time last year. This raises doubt over just how much fiscal pump-priming is really going on, said Xu Gao, an economist at Essence Securities.

For Stephen Green, an economist at Standard Chartered Bank, the changes in monetary conditions are enough to convince him policy is being eased.

"We started the year with seven-day repo rates at 5 percent and now it's nearly at 3 percent. That's fairly clearly loosening," he said.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Christopher Sidor »

^^^^
So the two biggest economies are today addicted to cheap money. The only superficial difference is the degree. One to zero interest rate of its central banker and the second to cheap financing of government's SOE. I wonder which is more corrosive?

With PRC it is as if its transition to a market led cum consumer led economy is still work in progress. But here is the rub. A consumer led economy is dependent on its consumers controlling a significant portion of country's wealth. It is also dependent on cheap or if not cheap, then atleast easy credit for its consumers. This is provided that one believes that a more domestic led economy or consumer led economy is the way forward for PRC.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Christopher Sidor »

China’s Real-Estate Wrongs

One more article this time from a professor in the capital of PRC. Some salient points
1) the real estate segment of the economy accounts for about 30% of growth of PRC.
2) currently it would take about 34 years for an average Beijing resident to buy a house in Beijing if he saves his entire income. Emphasis on the word entire. Wonder what this average resident will survive on in these 34 years.
3) for the average Shanghai resident the comparable figure is 29 years. Again the emphasis is the resident saving his entire income.

PRC has two housing issues. Which it shares to a degree with India. First is the insane cost of housing. The second is lack of affordable housing.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gashish »

Liu wrote: 1.the simplest answer is that GDP underestimates the scale of CHinese economy.
just as my prevous post refered,

nominal GDP might be the sole indicator that still shows CHina's economy scale is still smaller than USA.

other indicators ,such as electricity consumtpition,trade amount, duarale sales(autos,AC,PC,washing machines..etc), material consumption(cement,steel,ores..etc) and total freight, all show that CHina's economy is larger than USA and China's ahead is getting more consolidated day by day.

besides, CHina's nominal GDP is 9.4 trillion USD,instead of 6-7 triliion USD.
Tend to agree with this one. This was my first gut feel when I first traveled/lived in China after having lived in US/Europe.

We know Auto sector surpassed US way back in 2010, and is now around 20-25% bigger than US (19mn cars vs 16mn in 2013) and still growing at 6-8% till 2020.

The amount of cement consumed in China in last 3 years (6.6 gigatons) is bigger than what US consumed in last 100 years (4.5 gigatons) :shock:
http://www.wired.com/2014/06/how-much-c ... al_twitter

Plus the unreported/black economy and massive scale of shadow banking; no way can Chinese GDP be smaller than that of US,says my intuition.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

gashish wrote:
Liu wrote: 1.the simplest answer is that GDP underestimates the scale of CHinese economy.
just as my prevous post refered,

nominal GDP might be the sole indicator that still shows CHina's economy scale is still smaller than USA.

other indicators ,such as electricity consumtpition,trade amount, duarale sales(autos,AC,PC,washing machines..etc), material consumption(cement,steel,ores..etc) and total freight, all show that CHina's economy is larger than USA and China's ahead is getting more consolidated day by day.

besides, CHina's nominal GDP is 9.4 trillion USD,instead of 6-7 triliion USD.
Tend to agree with this one. This was my first gut feel when I first traveled/lived in China after having lived in US/Europe.

We know Auto sector surpassed US way back in 2010, and is now around 20-25% bigger than US (19mn cars vs 16mn in 2013) and still growing at 6-8% till 2020.

The amount of cement consumed in China in last 3 years (6.6 gigatons) is bigger than what US consumed in last 100 years (4.5 gigatons) :shock:
http://www.wired.com/2014/06/how-much-c ... al_twitter

Plus the unreported/black economy and massive scale of shadow banking; no way can Chinese GDP be smaller than that of US,says my intuition.
1.in fact, China's auto sale in 2013 is 22M ,almost equal to the combine of USA(16M)+Japan(7M).

2. Besides, China's way to caculate GDP is quite unique......
for example, CHina's GDP usually doesn't include Rent,however 10% of USA's GDP is rent..
In fact, about 10% of USA's 17 trillion USD GDP is rent, which is about 1.7 trillion USD, almost equal to india's total GDP.
however, according to CHina's GDP, rent in China is almost zero.

3. Generally speaking, CHinese local government tend to boast economy growth for feasible promotion,but Chinese center government tends to underreport its growth,in order to hide its power and decrease its responsibility to international affairs.
And , GDP Data is always released by CHinese center government,instead of CHinese local government.
so it is no strange at all that CHinese GDP is underreported by CHinese center government ..
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

http://fortune.com/2014/06/05/china-rich-immigration/
Earlier this year, the best company at surveying the rich in China announced that more than 60% of the people it surveyed had already immigrated to another country, or were considering doing so.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by chola »

gashish wrote:
Tend to agree with this one. This was my first gut feel when I first traveled/lived in China after having lived in US/Europe.

We know Auto sector surpassed US way back in 2010, and is now around 20-25% bigger than US (19mn cars vs 16mn in 2013) and still growing at 6-8% till 2020.

The amount of cement consumed in China in last 3 years (6.6 gigatons) is bigger than what US consumed in last 100 years (4.5 gigatons) :shock:
http://www.wired.com/2014/06/how-much-c ... al_twitter

Plus the unreported/black economy and massive scale of shadow banking; no way can Chinese GDP be smaller than that of US,says my intuition.
The MNCs have been working under this presumption for years. Not only is the Chini market for a lot of items a lot bigger than the US's but you can also charge a premium which means the profits in China is several times anywhere else. You can literally double charge what you sell to the Chinese.

What people don't know is firms like GM actually makes most of its operating profit in China not the US. The same for VW.

Tata motors, through Land Rover and Jaguar, also makes most of its profit from China.

The PRC is a once-in-a-lifetime perfect market with literally the world's largest consumer class that have the highest regards for foreign brands and with crappy local companies as non-competition. MNCs are on happy hunting grounds the likes of which might never be encountered again. (The same could be said of the Chinese dating scene for foreigners. On Wall Street, the rule of thumb is there no better place for a red-blooded American or European single male to step up the corporate ladder and sew his wild oats at the same time. World class beauties with porcelain skin and delicate features who absolutely disdain the weak local product and go exclusively for the foreign brands. lol)
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by chola »

Theo_Fidel wrote:http://fortune.com/2014/06/05/china-rich-immigration/
Earlier this year, the best company at surveying the rich in China announced that more than 60% of the people it surveyed had already immigrated to another country, or were considering doing so.
No only family money but corporate. As I said here many times before, the greatest story right now is the torrent of manufacturing capital and jobs leaving China for the rest of the world because China is too expensive. What we saw in Japan, Korea and Taiwan has now run its course in China.

The real story is who is next in line to take advantage of this flow. Korea and Taiwan were brought into the first world in one generation. China is still mainly a craphole because it remained communist but the process still made it the world's largest consumer market (read above.)

The flood out of China will make another Taiwan or South Korea, mark my words. It would be sad if the nation benefiting most turns out to be Vietnam or Bangladesh instead of Bharat.
Liu
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

chola wrote:
gashish wrote:
Tend to agree with this one. This was my first gut feel when I first traveled/lived in China after having lived in US/Europe.

We know Auto sector surpassed US way back in 2010, and is now around 20-25% bigger than US (19mn cars vs 16mn in 2013) and still growing at 6-8% till 2020.

The amount of cement consumed in China in last 3 years (6.6 gigatons) is bigger than what US consumed in last 100 years (4.5 gigatons) :shock:
http://www.wired.com/2014/06/how-much-c ... al_twitter

Plus the unreported/black economy and massive scale of shadow banking; no way can Chinese GDP be smaller than that of US,says my intuition.
The MNCs have been working under this presumption for years. Not only is the Chini market for a lot of items a lot bigger than the US's but you can also charge a premium which means the profits in China is several times anywhere else. You can literally double charge what you sell to the Chinese.

What people don't know is firms like GM actually makes most of its operating profit in China not the US. The same for VW.

Tata motors, through Land Rover and Jaguar, also makes most of its profit from China.

The PRC is a once-in-a-lifetime perfect market with literally the world's largest consumer class that have the highest regards for foreign brands and with crappy local companies as non-competition. MNCs are on happy hunting grounds the likes of which might never be encountered again. (The same could be said of the Chinese dating scene for foreigners. On Wall Street, the rule of thumb is there no better place for a red-blooded American or European single male to step up the corporate ladder and sew his wild oats at the same time. World class beauties with porcelain skin and delicate features who absolutely disdain the weak local product and go exclusively for the foreign brands. lol)
Obviously ,you want to tell people that two cases:
Case 1.China's market is indeed the largest one, even larger than USA,which has global largest nominal GDP.
Case 2.CHina's local companies ia crappy and foreign MNC is ruling CHinese market.


My replies are :

Case 1 is right. I do believe that CHina' economy is now larger than USA already.


Case 2 is wrong.

for example:
ICBC is global most profitable bank, and its yearly After-tax profits is over 40 Billion USD(263billionRMB),even more than india's yearly defence expenditure. It makes Citibank and many "world class brand" look like a dwarf.

however, ICBC is just one of hundreds of CHinese center state-owned enterprises.
many of those " hundreds of CHinese center state-owned enterprises" are unknown to indians like you,but all of them are all industry tycoons that can match ICBC ,HSBC,GM , Erisson ,Huawei,Google or Alibaba.


They might not as famous" as Huawei and Lenveno,but they manufacture almost all most important infrastructrues,material, maching tools and weapons for CHina,from highspeed railways to autos, from submarins to spaceships,from chips to ships, from oil to nanomaterials. they are the backbone of CHinese economy.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

chola wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:http://fortune.com/2014/06/05/china-rich-immigration/


No only family money but corporate. As I said here many times before, the greatest story right now is the torrent of manufacturing capital and jobs leaving China for the rest of the world because China is too expensive. What we saw in Japan, Korea and Taiwan has now run its course in China.

The real story is who is next in line to take advantage of this flow. Korea and Taiwan were brought into the first world in one generation. China is still mainly a craphole because it remained communist but the process still made it the world's largest consumer market (read above.)

The flood out of China will make another Taiwan or South Korea, mark my words. It would be sad if the nation benefiting most turns out to be Vietnam or Bangladesh instead of Bharat.

case1: China is still more attractive to industry relocation than the rest world,because China is still the sole country which has worldclass infrastructure, perfect industry chains,diciplined and literated workers ,efficient and pro-business administration at the same time.
labour cost is just one of many factors industry relocation have to consider,as well as industry chains, infrastructures, discipline of workers,literacy,bureaucracy..etc.
that is why Black Africa can hardly attract FDI,although its labour cost is global lowest.


although CHinese labour cost is rising ,but it is still lower than moderate developed economy like S.kroea and Taiwan.

case2: Vietnam ,southeast Asia and east Europe prepare for industry relocation better than India.

as for the race to attract FDC, india is still a sleeping tortoise
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gashish »

chola wrote:
gashish wrote:
Tend to agree with this one. This was my first gut feel when I first traveled/lived in China after having lived in US/Europe.

We know Auto sector surpassed US way back in 2010, and is now around 20-25% bigger than US (19mn cars vs 16mn in 2013) and still growing at 6-8% till 2020.

The amount of cement consumed in China in last 3 years (6.6 gigatons) is bigger than what US consumed in last 100 years (4.5 gigatons) :shock:
http://www.wired.com/2014/06/how-much-c ... al_twitter

Plus the unreported/black economy and massive scale of shadow banking; no way can Chinese GDP be smaller than that of US,says my intuition.
The MNCs have been working under this presumption for years. Not only is the Chini market for a lot of items a lot bigger than the US's but you can also charge a premium which means the profits in China is several times anywhere else. You can literally double charge what you sell to the Chinese.

What people don't know is firms like GM actually makes most of its operating profit in China not the US. The same for VW.

Tata motors, through Land Rover and Jaguar, also makes most of its profit from China.

The PRC is a once-in-a-lifetime perfect market with literally the world's largest consumer class that have the highest regards for foreign brands and with crappy local companies as non-competition. MNCs are on happy hunting grounds the likes of which might never be encountered again. (The same could be said of the Chinese dating scene for foreigners. On Wall Street, the rule of thumb is there no better place for a red-blooded American or European single male to step up the corporate ladder and sew his wild oats at the same time. World class beauties with porcelain skin and delicate features who absolutely disdain the weak local product and go exclusively for the foreign brands. lol)
Very true, and can vouch for this from personal/professional experience 8) Take a stroll in French concession area of Shanghai, white guy + chinese wife + baby in the stroller is the most common sight.

Anything remotely European is gobbled up. VW/GM have truly milked the chinese market for last 10 years. Along the way lot of chinese middlemen with connections to the decision-makers in auto makers thru the party have become rich. Anecdotaly speaking, I have seen more maseratis on Shanghai streets than during my stay in orange county few years ago.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gashish »

Liu wrote: for example:
ICBC is global most profitable bank, and its yearly After-tax profits is over 40 Billion USD(263billionRMB),even more than india's yearly defence expenditure. It makes Citibank and many "world class brand" look like a dwarf.
I am/was customer of both ICBC and Citibank...and I can tell you ICBC sucks big time in terms of their services/processes/systems etc.

As a brand..the value of citibank is many many times that of ICBC. (http://www.interbrand.com/en/best-globa ... -View.aspx) Profitability/size of a state owned bank is irrelevant when it comes to being a world class.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

gashish wrote:
Liu wrote: for example:
ICBC is global most profitable bank, and its yearly After-tax profits is over 40 Billion USD(263billionRMB),even more than india's yearly defence expenditure. It makes Citibank and many "world class brand" look like a dwarf.
I am/was customer of both ICBC and Citibank...and I can tell you ICBC sucks big time in terms of their services/processes/systems etc.

As a brand..the value of citibank is many many times that of ICBC. (http://www.interbrand.com/en/best-globa ... -View.aspx) Profitability/size of a state owned bank is irrelevant when it comes to being a world class.
hehe,
,just one night before it bankrupted, the brand of Lehman brothers was worth billions of $ .
however
,just one hour after it bankrupted, its brand was worth Zero.


so, brand value is based on profit. without profit, brands would always be nothing,however glory its history was.

case is that ICBC earns much more than citibank ,and its asset is much heavier than citibank.. it is growing faster than citibank.
That citibank was more valuable is just the past histroy..


And ,You,as well as many indians here, are the ones who are not used to the case and addicted to the past history .
Last edited by Liu on 25 Jun 2014 19:07, edited 2 times in total.
gashish
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gashish »

I dont care as a customer. Average chinese customer chooses any american/european brand over Chinese brand (in free market place)...hence the killing made by american/european companies in last decade. Thats the original point raised by chola.

you can assume chinese d$*k is bigger than every other d$*k, if it satisfies you, but sorry there are no takers for chinese d$*k. thats the point.
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