PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 19 Mar 2012 23:21

A GPU in a chip designed for networks? That must be a first. While integrating multiple cores to create a platform is not child's play, it is something which had been done hundreds of time in tens of companies.

Dear PRC boosters, as others have noted, there is no point tom-tomming Huawei in a community dominated by engineers. I have friends who went to China to work with Huawei engineering design teams, after they decided to pay for a license (after many years). I do have a very good idea on what they are good at. Innovating is not one of them. Like almost everything they offer China price, which is very hard for anyone else to beat.

Huawei's example is a glowing candidate of what lack of vision means to India. Getting into battle with netzilla etc. requires strong government backing, with the willingness to take the risk of supporting the domestic horse. The PLA/CPC had that vision; GOI does not.

Political backing, ruthlessness, vision to compete: a BIG YES.
Innovation, Where did that come from?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Mar 2012 00:01

ashi wrote: Most of the mobile chips are ARM based. Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm ... How do they differentiate and compete with each other? Chip design is more than just the core processor. GPU, hardware accelerators, memory controllers, power consumption ... You and gakakkad need to educate yourselves a bit.

yes yes we are very uneducated onlee - what to do, we are boor SDRE living on less than $2/day onlee

Unfortunately, I am very very familiar with what goes on in Huawei's 'innovative' R&D (randee) facility in the bay area both from past and current employees (I am sure you would love to know the names of those current employees so that they can be scheduled for le-education, no?

)

So Huawei didn't make the CPU and didn't make the GPU and the only thing I am seeing from them is marketing hyperbole & BS such as "16 GPUs", "Tegra3 only does 13fps video" (this one takes the cake surely

) and "low power consumption is apparently achieved thanks to hardware, proprietary algorithms and faster signal detection that reduces power consumption."

It just makes it sound like some cheap party manifesto.

Huawei has tried to peddle that chip of theirs as an alternative to some major vendors during MWC this year - words of one of the folks who evaluated it, forget any so-called gains in performance, the silicon itself is a patent minefield - go figure.

I am sure someday Huawei will have its own home grown processor but to proudly strut something licensed/copied from others as Huawei's innovation when its clearly not and then expect us boor SDREs to fall all over ourselves in awe of the Gleat Chinese Innovation Machine is just setting yourself up to be ridiculed. And puffing up in rage when we fall over ourselves laughing for good reason, is just embarrassing yourself needlessly. It might be better to follow one of your biladel's own advise - talk less, deliver more. Thank you, come again.

PS: A quick clarification resulted in another interesting tidbit - apparently the memory controller being touted as innovative, uses IP which was invented by one of the folks who works here. He did this in his past life (back then he was the chief designer of a top-end processor widely used in large scale computing setups such as data centers, oil exploration etc. and the IP in question actually comes from his PhD dissertation). Expect to be sued by some big names if this 'innovative' Huawei chip gains any traction in volume in markets outside China.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Mar 2012 09:28

Suraj wrote:Amit is right; Chinese questioning Indian GDP means something is afoot

Suraj,

I think it's pretty simple. The CCP has spoken. It has decided in its infinite wisdom that the days of double digit growth are over and that the trend growth would be in the region of 7-8 per cent. I have a feeling that privately they are not very confident that even that can be achieved without the economy spinning out of control. But there's always Shanghai stats to fall back on.

Meanwhile, despite the recent policy muddle in India, all indications are that the long term growth will be over 8 per cent, at least. So what to do? Use Shiv's "open fly, torn shirt" argument: "So what Chinese growth is 7 per cent, Indian growth is actually 3 per cent!"

The fun will start when we being to see convoluted arguments and of course pictures of people travelling on top of trains (even though they are from Bangladesh, cira 1970s), open drains etc. The point that Indians readily acknowledge that these problems exist and ciriticise their own government for that is lost on our Chinese guests.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 20 Mar 2012 10:02

The fun will start when we being to see convoluted arguments and of course pictures of people travelling on top of trains (even though they are from Bangladesh, cira 1970s), open drains etc. The point that Indians readily acknowledge that these problems exist and ciriticise their own government for that is lost on our Chinese guests.

not to mention 30 year old pictures of malnourished kids and all the nonsense statistics..

The problem is that we Indians are so used to "India is bad" psyche that we believe any nonsense pseudo-statistics peddled by these people against India . Last week in the union budget , some money was devoted towards India's Mars mission , I read some newspaper websites to read more. Many of the comments were negative ... You know the country with millions poor , hungry bla ..bla.. should not send things to mars yada..yada...type of comments... One of the moron even accused ISRO of 'cheap publicity' .. Some of the comments were clearly from Pakis . (the ones that included humus rights) . But a sizeable proportion of comments were by self flagellating Indians. Even during the peak of financial crisis when US has double digit real unemployment figure 20%+ poverty line , 15%+ homelessness , no one crticized GOTUS for NASA spendings. The pandas often take advantage of the self loathing masochistic mentality of a section of Indian populace to induce a sense of inferiority . Notice how they attempted to sell the spraypainted arm cortex chip as there own ? Ehh..look at me I have a "homegrown microchp" what have you got , people travelling on top of trains ehh "'

PS- In real life I have never seen anyone travelling on top of trains . I have travelled through most of India .The chinese perhaps after watching some Indian movies thought that something of that sort happened in real life. Because they often use the meme in flame wars against Indians...

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Mar 2012 10:22

This is the Chinese thread folks. I think we've answered our esteemed guests' 'concerns' about the Indian economy for the moment. Time to focus on looking more closely on theirs, particularly ensuring that any data they provide is authentically backed by reliable Indian or western sources.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Mar 2012 10:36

gakakkad wrote:One of the moron even accused ISRO of 'cheap publicity' .. Some of the comments were clearly from Pakis . (the ones that included humus rights) . But a sizeable proportion of comments were by self flagellating Indians. Even during the peak of financial crisis when US has double digit real unemployment figure 20%+ poverty line , 15%+ homelessness , no one crticized GOTUS for NASA spendings.

Saar, to be fair, NASA has been on a starvation budget for years now. Not even a secret anymore, actually. And from before the meltdown emerged from toxic wall st vaults. Name one game-changing, shock-&-awe project NASA is working on/looking fwd to. No, it doesn;t have to be as grand a vision as the Moon mission but still...

I think its zimbly awesome that India has persisted with critical projects and ISRO funding for really futuristic projects despite the ekhanomic travails haunting the better half of the world. Zimbly awesome only.

Panda space program is so advanced it is actually partnering with SUARCO, rumor went. And releasing the pre-recorded "Earth looks wondeful from space - and there's the gleat wall of china" bit even before the rocket had launched was zimbly priceless. Only.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Mar 2012 12:09

Meanwhile, going back to regular programming, remember the discussions we had on the wonderful, spectacular, super dooper, High Speed Rail system the Chinese have built? Some of the lustre has gone but the Beijing-Shanghai link was touted as the most spectacular achievement.

Well what have you...

China audit details fraud, waste at Beijing-Shanghai railway

China's National Audit Office said on Monday it had uncovered more evidence of fraud, waste, mismanagement and irregular accounting and procurement, totaling billions of yuan, at the flagship high-speed Beijing-Shanghai railway.

The 217 billion yuan ($34 billion) railway, hailed as a miracle project by officials when it opened in June 2011, has been beset by a litany of management failures and unusual practices resulting in tens of billions of yuan of waste.

The report by the Chinese cabinet's watchdog found the Ministry of Railways shortened some periods of preliminary review for bidders to 13 hours from the standard five days.

While the ministry's corporate arm bought at least 849 million yuan worth of materials from non-bidding suppliers at higher prices than those quoted by winning bidders.

China's Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway line started operation in June 2011 after 42 months of frenzied development, marking the zenith of China's railway construction boom.

The new report said 413 million yuan spent on train windshields was wasted when design specifications were changed in March 2011, three months before the line opened.

The report said it had also found evidence of wrongdoing by local governments.

It said Jiangning economic development zone in Nanjing applied for land compensation worth 140 million yuan from the railway using false documents, receiving 40 million yuan of payments by end of June 2011.

The above gives a whole new meaning to the term: Institutionalised corruption.

The 1,318 km (800 miles) Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway has also struggled to pay suppliers and contractors.

By the end of May 2011, the railway had 8.251 billion yuan worth of debts owning to 656 suppliers and 1,471 contractors, the National Audit Office said.

We have been told, lectured and even hectored by our Chinese guests that there is great "demand" for these HSR lines and people even go standing. If that's the case I really wonder why there is so much debt and suppliers and contractors are not being paid? I mean if these lines are profit-making as is being claimed then?

vina · Post by **vina** » 20 Mar 2012 12:25

Raja Bose wrote:Unfortunately, I am very very familiar with what goes on in Huawei's 'innovative' R&D (randee) facility.

More than Huawei and it's Randee (which means Plostitute in Hindi , if the Chinese speakers here are wondering) facility, I think this "latest and new to market" out of China is more "innovative".

Panda Poop Tea - Secret of World Most Expensive Tea

Poo For Tea - China's Pandas Brew a Top Drop

Indeed, the tea is said to be "smooth" and "fragrant" , as I would imagine it would be.

.

And here I was all this while thinking that the Darjeeling Tea is among the most expensive and sought after gourmet teas in the world. Evidently not so. Maybe the Darjeeling planters need to import the 11 tons of Panda dung from the breeding centers!

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 20 Mar 2012 14:46

Raja Bose wrote:
yes yes we are very uneducated onlee - what to do, we are boor SDRE living on less than $2/day onlee

Unfortunately, I am very very familiar with what goes on in Huawei's 'innovative' R&D (randee) facility in the bay area both from past and current employees (I am sure you would love to know the names of those current employees so that they can be scheduled for le-education, no? )

So Huawei didn't make the CPU and didn't make the GPU and the only thing I am seeing from them is marketing hyperbole & BS such as "16 GPUs", "Tegra3 only does 13fps video" (this one takes the cake surely ) and "low power consumption is apparently achieved thanks to hardware, proprietary algorithms and faster signal detection that reduces power consumption." It just makes it sound like some cheap party manifesto.

Huawei has tried to peddle that chip of theirs as an alternative to some major vendors during MWC this year - words of one of the folks who evaluated it, forget any so-called gains in performance, the silicon itself is a patent minefield - go figure.

I am sure someday Huawei will have its own home grown processor but to proudly strut something licensed/copied from others as Huawei's innovation when its clearly not and then expect us boor SDREs to fall all over ourselves in awe of the Gleat Chinese Innovation Machine is just setting yourself up to be ridiculed. And puffing up in rage when we fall over ourselves laughing for good reason, is just embarrassing yourself needlessly. It might be better to follow one of your biladel's own advise - talk less, deliver more. Thank you, come again.

PS: A quick clarification resulted in another interesting tidbit - apparently the memory controller being touted as innovative, uses IP which was invented by one of the folks who works here. He did this in his past life (back then he was the chief designer of a top-end processor widely used in large scale computing setups such as data centers, oil exploration etc. and the IP in question actually comes from his PhD dissertation). Expect to be sued by some big names if this 'innovative' Huawei chip gains any traction in volume in markets outside China.

You can write things like "Unfortunately, I am very very familiar with what goes on in Huawei's 'innovative' R&D (randee) facility in the bay area" that nobody can prove it. Honestly it doesn't mean anything to me. I also happen to know many people who work for Huawei. Huawei is spending sea amount of money on R&D, on many many areas.

The hard data is Huawei is rising and rising fast. It is surpassing Ericsson.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 20 Mar 2012 16:16

Good for Huawei. I hope it grows leaps and bounds. And it is an example of Chinese success in R&D, so be it.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Mar 2012 17:22

ashi wrote:You can write things like "Unfortunately, I am very very familiar with what goes on in Huawei's 'innovative' R&D (randee) facility in the bay area" that nobody can prove it. Honestly it doesn't mean anything to me. I also happen to know many people who work for Huawei. Huawei is spending sea amount of money on R&D, on many many areas.

The hard data is Huawei is rising and rising fast. It is surpassing Ericsson.

Ashi,

You should take a chill pill and get a dose or reality into your system.

Sure Huawei will soon surpass Ericsson in sales. But will it surpass it in terms of global carrier infrastructure network share? Not any time soon. This the really high tech, high IP and high margin business.

Unfortunately for you, folks here are do not get shocked and awed by propaganda. A significant chunk of Huawei revenue comes form low margin consumer businesses like handsets (big captive market within China), then low end consumer grade wireless routers and dongles etc.

Interestingly Ericsson once upon a time made handsets too. But it soon realised that the low margin business doesn't suit it's profile and so it move away completely.

Let me give you bit of history about two other large global technology companies, HP and IBM. Once upon a time IBM was the biggest dog in town. However, HP under Mark Hurd started to catch up and soon surpassed IBM revenue numbers. Mark Hurd gloated when the company did that. But Sam Palmisano told IBMers to forget topline numbers, look at the margins. IBM was and still remains a far more profitable company than HP and also the most innovative.

I think you'll find the same case with Huawei vis a vis Ericsson. Remember the discussion started with innovation.

Incidentally I have a healthy respect for Huawei - it has done well for a company from a third world country which has/had no legacy IP to build on. Of course there's the famous case in 2003 when it stole half a million lines of code from Cisco, however, let's overlook that.

But it's still got a long mountain to climb before it becomes a IP leader, innovation leader in the telecom infra space. It is winning deals on price as every global carrier is cash strapped. Nobody is willing to pay a premium for Huawei products because of innovation. They do that for the likes of Cisco and Ericsson. In fact the later is still winning contracts vs Huawei precisely because of that since it's always outpriced (on the lower band that is) by Huawei and ZTE.

As Bloomberg points out, in US dollar terms, the revenue gap between Ericsson and Huawei last year was about $930m, or the equivalent of less than two weeks' worth of sales for Huawei. Ericsson's sales were SKr 203.3bn or $28.3 billion at the average exchange rate. While Huawei's sales have grown by 179% since 2006, Ericsson's have increased by only 13% in the same period, though Ericsson still held a clear market lead of 19.6% of carrier network infrastructure last year, compared to Huawei's 15.7%. Huawei's overall sales are boosted by its broader range of business activities, including handsets.

Link

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 20 Mar 2012 18:49

Amit Ji, you are trying hard in vain. If Comrade Ashi feels great about Huawei then let him. We should be joining him in his celebration.

Ashi San, indeed Huawei is a great company. I know it by experience how aggressive the marketing is and their inherent financials strength is a nightmare for other competitors who may have the IP but just do not have the balls to outbid Huawei.

Also the focus on R&D is a welcome step. The way Huawei is trying to leverage the huge diaspora in Bay area, it is a good idea. May be they will replicate the 'little smart phone' story. I also understand that it is a very bold decision. I would like to learn from you, since you know about Huawei, that how would Huawei pay for this R&D center if it continues to outbid its rivals they way they do now. Or is it that their strategy is that their other businesses like handset, switch etc will continue to subsidise the network and R&D divisions? In the end Huawei will be the only company standing?

sha · Post by **sha** » 20 Mar 2012 19:49

As a matter of fact, Huawei introduled its K3 processor(460mHz, ARM9-core) into market as early as 2007. K3 processor has been produced in large scale and been platform for some Shanzhai phones. Ironically, K3 found no use in Huawei's own products becasue it's believed not good enough. K3V2( Quad-core , 1.5GHz) was started to design 2.5 years ago. Its CPU core is Cortex-a9, whereas its GPU is designed by Huawei and a US company, base-band processor is designed by Huawei itself. K3V2 is fabbed in 45nm by TSMC. According to The verge's test, Hawei's Ascend D quad(K3V2) outbeats HTC and LG Quad-core smart phone(Tegra 3).

Honestlt spearking, Huawei didin't do it all by itself, but who did? Anyway, Huawei is one of the few compnany which is capable of designing application processor and base-band processor, so it gives Huawei a big edge over its competitors.

As far as the IP is concerned, here is some old news:

http://voicendata.ciol.com/content/news1/111120102.asp
Huawei has announced that it has been the largest contributor to LTE standards and patents in the industry since the year 2010. According to the company, it has submitted more than 7,900 LTE/EPC (Evolved Packet Core) contributions to 3GPP (3G Partnership Project) as of October 2011, including more than 230 approved contributions of LTE core specification.

Huawei Recognized For LTE Innovation
http://lteworld.org/news/huawei-recogni ... innovation

Huawei has been recognized at the LTE World Summit 2010 in Holland for their advancements in the commercialization and research and development of LTE technology. The company won two top awards at the LTE World Summit 2010 in Holland. These awards include "Significant Progress for a Commercial Launch of LTE by a Vendor" and "Best Contribution to Research & Development for LTE."

Huawei Leading LTE deployments
http://www.liveatpc.com/huawei-leading-lte-deployments
According to the latest Evolution to LTE report released on October 12, 2011, by the Global mobile Suppliers Association (GSA), out of the 35 commercial LTE networks launched globally, 18 of them use Huawei’s end-to-end SingleRAN LTE solution. Huawei is now ranked No. 1 worldwide with more than 50-percent market share when it comes to commercial LTE deployments.

wong · Post by **wong** » 20 Mar 2012 20:22

The Chinese equivalent (it's not really equivalent) is called Artemisinin.

Which do you think will win a Nobel Prize in Medicine first, another way to reach the appendix or a drug that has saved millions. My guess is on the anti-malarial drug. It's already on a short, short list.

gakakkad wrote:
The world first transgatric appendectomy (removal of appendix by passing an endoscope trough the mouth , no incisions on the stomach. ) was performed in hyderabad . (Asian institute of gastroenterology.) Find me its chinese equivalent and I ll find you an Indian equivalent of the ~~IPR thief who robbed from Cisco~~ the innovative network solutions giant .

wrdos · Post by **wrdos** » 20 Mar 2012 20:27

I used the Chinese HSR trains just in last week, twice in the Hainan island and twice between cities near Shanghai.

Here are several videos taken by me personally, using my i-phone.

1. Entering Shanghai Hongqiao Station
http://youtu.be/teW7w-8t2H8

2. Near Changzhou Station
http://youtu.be/QcBEMz8cKv8

3. Near Kunshan Station
http://youtu.be/6o_unqHNlIw

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 20 Mar 2012 20:34

the anti-malarial properties of quinghaosu alkaloid (Sweet Wormwood , Artemisia annua ) were known to the Ancient chinese civilization for 1000s of years. It was found in the ancient scripture of Wushi'er Bingfang (Recipes for Fifty-Two Ailments) in the Mawangdui archaelogical site . Earliest records of its use date back to 200 bc.

PRC merely purified plant extracts of the plant and isolated the chemicals with the anti-malarial property . Had the anti-malarial property not been known to the ancient chinese , PRC army would have never discovered artemesinin .

wong · Post by **wong** » 20 Mar 2012 21:02

^^^^^

You wanted a Chinese equivalent, I named something that far surpasses yet another human body orifice to reach the appendix.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 20 Mar 2012 21:17

wong wrote:^^^^^

You wanted a Chinese equivalent, I named something that far surpasses yet another human body orifice to reach the appendix.

Good Lord, these Chinese posters are pathetic.

Listen, Wong, the original point was about innovation in the modern republics of India and China. Some Chinese poster said Huawei (spelling?) was the epitome of Chinese innovation. So Indian posters started pointing out that this was not the case. I don't want to speak for gakakkad, but I think his (her?) original point was that India was innovating in some sense, by finding a novel method of reaching the appendix. You countered by showing some "Malarial drug," which you claimed was an example of Chinese innovation. When it is pointed out to you that this drug has been known for thousands of years, and in that sense, is not truly "innovation," you say "you wanted a Chinese equivalent, so I named something...."

Are you Chinese posters for real? You are seriously embarrassing yourselves. What is your point? China is very much greater than miserable little India? Fine, accepted. Silly little India can never aspire to the greatness of your glorious, immortal heaven-on-earth. Happy now?

Sudarshan

wong · Post by **wong** » 20 Mar 2012 21:25

Listen Sudarsha, if you want to discount everything China does, including a discovery on the short list for a Nobel Prize in Medicine and find "innovation" in one of many orifices in the human body (I guarantee you this will never win a Nobel Prize), there really is no point to discuss this further.

sudarshan wrote:
wong wrote:^^^^^

You wanted a Chinese equivalent, I named something that far surpasses yet another human body orifice to reach the appendix.
Good Lord, these Chinese posters are pathetic.

Listen, Wong, the original point was about innovation in the modern republics of India and China. Some Chinese poster said Huawei (spelling?) was the epitome of Chinese innovation. So Indian posters started pointing out that this was not the case. I don't want to speak for gakakkad, but I think his (her?) original point was that India was innovating in some sense, by finding a novel method of reaching the appendix. You countered by showing some "Malarial drug," which you claimed was an example of Chinese innovation. When it is pointed out to you that this drug has been known for thousands of years, and in that sense, is not truly "innovation," you say "you wanted a Chinese equivalent, so I named something...."

Are you Chinese posters for real? You are seriously embarrassing yourselves. What is your point? China is very much greater than miserable little India? Fine, accepted. Silly little India can never aspire to the greatness of your glorious, immortal heaven-on-earth. Happy now?

Sudarshan

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Mar 2012 21:47

wrdos wrote:Here are several videos taken by me personally, using my i-phone.

But why an Iphone designed by the Meiguoren bourgeoisie who exploit Chinese workers ? Why not a ZTE handset with an innovative completely local Huawei chip ?

sha · Post by **sha** » 20 Mar 2012 21:52

For the GDP issue, I think wrdos's arguments are:
1. China was far more advanced in social development than India in the same GDP level;
2. For Indis's GDP components, consumption took a big share, but the consumption market in reality didn't support it.
then comes wrdos's conclusion.
I guess Chola might have same conclusion in his posters.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Mar 2012 21:55

India's 'high consumption as share of GDP' is a reporting artifact. India reports all construction activity as services, not industrial output the way pretty much everyone else does...

sha · Post by **sha** » 20 Mar 2012 22:59

Suraj wrote:India's 'high consumption as share of GDP' is a reporting artifact. India reports all construction activity as services, not industrial output the way pretty much everyone else does...

GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)
That's the most popular way to calculate GDP.

Please check
http://www.rbi.org.in/scripts/AnnualPub ... %20Economy
Private comsumption covers about 60% of GDP in 2010-2011.

BTW, RBI compiled the handbook and the data source came from India Central Statistics Office (CSO).

As you all know CPC lies but CSO, the independent department in a democratic country, never cooks statistics. It must have provide all these numbers on a solid base.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Mar 2012 23:08

wong wrote:Listen Sudarsha, if you want to discount everything China does, including a discovery on the short list for a Nobel Prize in Medicine and find "innovation" in one of many orifices in the human body (I guarantee you this will never win a Nobel Prize), there really is no point to discuss this further.

Speaking of the Nobel Prize (now that's a measure of innovation) how many PRC nationals have won the Nobel Prize in non-peace categories till date?

Note: I am talking about PRC nationals, not people who are citizens of Taiwan, US etc. who are of Chinese descent.

wong · Post by **wong** » 20 Mar 2012 23:19

Raja Bose wrote:
wong wrote:Listen Sudarsha, if you want to discount everything China does, including a discovery on the short list for a Nobel Prize in Medicine and find "innovation" in one of many orifices in the human body (I guarantee you this will never win a Nobel Prize), there really is no point to discuss this further.
Speaking of the Nobel Prize (now that's a measure of innovation) how many PRC nationals have won the Nobel Prize in non-peace categories till date?

Note: I am talking about PRC nationals, not people who are citizens of Taiwan, US etc. who are of Chinese descent.

Hahaha. Why are you being so restrictive in your criteria??? Do you guys not take credit for Vikram Pandit and the Pepsi lady every week?? You guys even take credit for Indian-Americans in the Intel Science Talent Search finals (we Chinese-Americans still did better by a 2 to 1 margin). If I were to restrict the Nobel criteria to non-British India, is it zero or one???

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 20 Mar 2012 23:41

wong wrote:
Raja Bose wrote: Speaking of the Nobel Prize (now that's a measure of innovation) how many PRC nationals have won the Nobel Prize in non-peace categories till date?

Note: I am talking about PRC nationals, not people who are citizens of Taiwan, US etc. who are of Chinese descent.

Hahaha. Why are you being so restrictive in your criteria??? Do you guys not take credit for Vikram Pandit and the Pepsi lady every week?? You guys even take credit for Indian-Americans in the Intel Science Talent Search finals (we Chinese-Americans still did better by a 2 to 1 margin). If I were to restrict the Nobel criteria to non-British India, is it zero or one???

May I point out that Wong has successfully sidetracked this thread into an Indo-Chinese fist-fight on Nobel prizes, Intel Science Talent, India vs China on any subject under the sun (except the original focus of the thread, of course?). That was probably the intent right from the beginning anyway.

To reply to your comments about me, Wong (meaning the 'discount everything China does' and the 'really no point to discuss this further'), you're right, there's no point discussing this further, because:

(1) You refuse to admit that copying something that's been around for thousands of years (your malaria drug) is *NOT* innovation, regardless of whether it wins a Nobel prize or not.

(2) You want Indians here to unquestioningly accept every proof of Chinese greatness that you produce. This is not going to happen, i.e., Indians are going to keep questioning everything (including Indian achievements) until we're satisfied with the answers.

(3) This discussion is not the original intent of this thread, which is, the Chinese economy. Congratulations on side-tracking the thread thus far, but I hope posters will get back on track now.

(4) If you want to discuss the Indian economy, please go to the Indian economy thread. This might come as a surprise to you, but there *IS* such a thread, where Indians themselves express their unhappiness with the state of the Indian economy. We don't sit around admiring our great achievements all the time - we do criticize our incompetent government. I know questioning your government is not something that comes naturally to you guys, but you can learn from Indians here.

(5) My last post on this, since I have no intention of mud-wrestling with the pigs. This is not meant to be offensive, it is a very common English expression. I don't care if the pigs are "not really pigs, but only pretending to be pigs, so they can eat tigers later." If you want to reply to my post so you can have the last word and feel great about yourself, you are welcome to do so.

Sudarshan

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Mar 2012 23:46

sha wrote:
Suraj wrote:India's 'high consumption as share of GDP' is a reporting artifact. India reports all construction activity as services, not industrial output the way pretty much everyone else does...
GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)
That's the most popular way to calculate GDP.

Please check
http://www.rbi.org.in/scripts/AnnualPub ... %20Economy
Private comsumption covers about 60% of GDP in 2010-2011.

BTW, RBI compiled the handbook and the data source came from India Central Statistics Office (CSO).

As you all know CPC lies but CSO, the independent department in a democratic country, never cooks statistics. It must have provide all these numbers on a solid base.

Clearly you did not even understand what I wrote in the previous post. We're not talking about the way to compute GDP or any fudging. The CSO has long categorized construction activities under services. Therefore that 60% services figure includes construction.

If that doesn't suit your idea of how GDP ought to be reported, feel free to write a strongly worded letter to the CSO complaining about it. No one ever accused the folks at CSO of being very sensible - certainly not us Indians who have been tracking the topic for years now.

Unfortunately this also blows a giant hole in your argument about why Indian absolute consumption figures are low considering allegedly 60% of GDP is consumption - a good part of that consumption is what others categorize as industrial output. Go ahead and come up with another funny theory.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 20 Mar 2012 23:47

^^^^ +1

sha · Post by **sha** » 21 Mar 2012 00:04

Suraj wrote:Clearly you did not even understand what I wrote in the previous post. We're not talking about the way to compute GDP or any fudging. The CSO has long categorized construction activities under services. Therefore that 60% services figure includes construction.

If that doesn't suit your idea of how GDP ought to be reported, feel free to write a strongly worded letter to the CSO complaining about it. No one ever accused the folks at CSO of being very sensible - certainly not us Indians who have been tracking the topic for years now.

Unfortunately this also blows a giant hole in your argument about why Indian absolute consumption figures are low considering allegedly 60% of GDP is consumption - a good part of that consumption is what others categorize as industrial output. Go ahead and come up with another funny theory.

Private consumption = Service?
Consumption = industrial output ?

If that's what you mean, bite me. Sorry, I can never and ever follow you.
Making a fool of youself.
Go ahead.

<clearly your parents failed to raise you as a decent human being, to say nothing of your education, or lack thereof.
try and behave or you are out of here.>

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 21 Mar 2012 01:25

wong wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:
Speaking of the Nobel Prize (now that's a measure of innovation) how many PRC nationals have won the Nobel Prize in non-peace categories till date?

Note: I am talking about PRC nationals, not people who are citizens of Taiwan, US etc. who are of Chinese descent.

Hahaha. Why are you being so restrictive in your criteria??? Do you guys not take credit for Vikram Pandit and the Pepsi lady every week?? You guys even take credit for Indian-Americans in the Intel Science Talent Search finals (we Chinese-Americans still did better by a 2 to 1 margin). If I were to restrict the Nobel criteria to non-British India, is it zero or one???

Boor Biladel fell for the trap

. I bet excluding the Peace Prize category made you go

and then you went off on a tangent about Vikram Pandit, Indira Nooyi and the Intel Science Fair kids - I didn't know that these people were Nobel laureates!

I basically excluded just the peace category becoz that award is completely politically motivated rather than based on merit and moreover has nothing to do with science and technology - which is what we have been discussing with another of your biladels trotting out Huawei's 'innovative microprocessor' (more on that later). So according to you, the inclusion of All categories except one is considered restricted, eh?

Or perhaps you don't like the uncomfortable truth that the Gleat Chinese Innovation Machine has failed to produce a single Nobel Laureate in science and technology!

I don't get it - why are you guys so insecure? Is it becoz deep down you know that your achievements are not as glorious and truthful as you make them out to be? Are you afraid of being exposed one day that you have very little clothes despite loud proclamations to the contrary? Do you see any of us here go bleating on Chinese forums how great we are and how the rest of the world cannot match up to us? I don't know if you guys realize this but your trying to prove yourself to be better at all costs tells us a lot more about your insecurities and weaknesses than it does about your strengths. Anyways, please continue coz this is the best entertainment I have had in BRF for a while ever since Rahul Mehta got banned!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 21 Mar 2012 01:52

ashi wrote: The hard data is Huawei is rising and rising fast. It is surpassing Ericsson.

Nice try biladel but not so fast! I wonder how many people noticed that once you got pinned down on your BS regarding Huawei's new 'innovative' microprocessor, you quietly tried to discard it from the discussion and desperately want to move on.

I don't see any independent proof of any innovation regarding Huawei's new chip except quotes originating from Huawei itself. Whereas I do have first hand reports from people who are qualified to judge it that indicate that it is a complete IP nightmare which they wouldn't touch with a 12 foot pole.

Even your partner biladel on this forum despite best efforts cannot quote anything more substantial than a verbatim regurgitation of a Huawei press release.

sha wrote:Its CPU core is Cortex-a9, whereas its GPU is designed by Huawei and a US company

Huawei Press Release wrote:The K3V2 uses four ARM Cortex A9 cores and a 16-core graphics block co-developed with an unnamed U.S. chip designer. The two collaborated on the GPU’s architecture, and the U.S. partner handled its implementation.

sha wrote:According to The verge's test, Hawei's Ascend D quad(K3V2) outbeats HTC and LG Quad-core smart phone(Tegra 3).

I am curious. Which test from The Verge are you referring to? Can you provide a link to that article?

BTW which Huawei Ascend D model featured in the test - was it the new Ascend D LTE version or the old non-LTE version?

member_22510 · Post by **member_22510** » 21 Mar 2012 06:14

Raja Bose wrote:
wong wrote:
Hahaha. Why are you being so restrictive in your criteria??? Do you guys not take credit for Vikram Pandit and the Pepsi lady every week?? You guys even take credit for Indian-Americans in the Intel Science Talent Search finals (we Chinese-Americans still did better by a 2 to 1 margin). If I were to restrict the Nobel criteria to non-British India, is it zero or one???
Boor Biladel fell for the trap . I bet excluding the Peace Prize category made you go and then you went off on a tangent about Vikram Pandit, Indira Nooyi and the Intel Science Fair kids - I didn't know that these people were Nobel laureates! I basically excluded just the peace category becoz that award is completely politically motivated rather than based on merit and moreover has nothing to do with science and technology - which is what we have been discussing with another of your biladels trotting out Huawei's 'innovative microprocessor' (more on that later). So according to you, the inclusion of All categories except one is considered restricted, eh?

I think wong is referring to your Note (Note: I am talking about PRC nationals, not people who are citizens of Taiwan, US etc. who are of Chinese descent.
) about excluding US/other country citizens of chinese descent when he wrote the restrictive criteria comment

amit · Post by **amit** » 21 Mar 2012 06:19

I wonder if there is a Chinese equivalent to the proverb:

Chaddis in a twist.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 21 Mar 2012 08:42

jagadish wrote:
I think wong is referring to your Note (Note: I am talking about PRC nationals, not people who are citizens of Taiwan, US etc. who are of Chinese descent.
) about excluding US/other country citizens of chinese descent when he wrote the restrictive criteria comment

Well we are talking about gleatness of the People Republic of China, no? How can we include traitors who escaped the loving embraces of the Great Party and escaped to the decadent west and their lackeys in the east??

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 21 Mar 2012 08:52

w.r.t Indian GDP , It is independently calculated by WB , IMF ,Indian government and various other private agencies. An important point to be noted here is the GDP estimations made by the Indian government are the lowest . They are often 5-10% lower than the WB/IMF estimates . And in India we use a rather out-moded base year system which tends to underestimate growth . If we use the Chinese reporting system , even last year(which was a bad year for us ) would probably be a double digit growth year . Nominal GDP did grow by 14-15% .

Wong , you claim to be from Taiwan , why do you feel so nationalistic about PRC ?

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 21 Mar 2012 09:17

Raja Bose wrote:\
Nice try biladel but not so fast! I wonder how many people noticed that once you got pinned down on your BS regarding Huawei's new 'innovative' microprocessor, you quietly tried to discard it from the discussion and desperately want to move on. I don't see any independent proof of any innovation regarding Huawei's new chip except quotes originating from Huawei itself. Whereas I do have first hand reports from people who are qualified to judge it that indicate that it is a complete IP nightmare which they wouldn't touch with a 12 foot pole.

Even your partner biladel on this forum despite best efforts cannot quote anything more substantial than a verbatim regurgitation of a Huawei press release.

sha wrote:Its CPU core is Cortex-a9, whereas its GPU is designed by Huawei and a US company

Huawei Press Release wrote:The K3V2 uses four ARM Cortex A9 cores and a 16-core graphics block co-developed with an unnamed U.S. chip designer. The two collaborated on the GPU’s architecture, and the U.S. partner handled its implementation.

sha wrote:According to The verge's test, Hawei's Ascend D quad(K3V2) outbeats HTC and LG Quad-core smart phone(Tegra 3).
I am curious. Which test from The Verge are you referring to? Can you provide a link to that article? BTW which Huawei Ascend D model featured in the test - was it the new Ascend D LTE version or the old non-LTE version?

I think the one who is full of it is you. Look at what i have posted before. I am merely saying a new chip from Huawei.

Then in no time you and gakakkad jumped on saying how can you claimed this is a home grown chip when it is a ARM core.

First, I didn't say it is homegrown. The article says it is. And I don't disagree with that. Second, you and gakakad were just trying to confuse people with a SoC and a processor.

In an application SoC, hardware accelerators are sometimes more important than the core processor. E.g: a network processor. The accelerator engines for security application and traffic classification is as much or more important than the core processor which runs the control path. This is the same for the GPU and hardware accelerators in Huawei's new mobile chip.

What I found funny is some of you trying to dismiss everything China has done. What you wish to achieve but cannot achieve, you just hope that would not be any good to others. That's typically called sour grape. Name one Indian company that can do what Huawai does. None!

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 21 Mar 2012 09:34

Marten wrote:Ashi, you are probably not familiar with the silicon market. Intel and Huawei BOTH have large development centers in India. Samsung's ARM derivatives are designed in India, as are so many others. It would be easier for you to understand India doesn't denigrate such achievements - it is mostly contributing to them.

Marten, research centers in India and China all contribute to companies Intel, Microsoft, Cisco. This is well known. But core tech don't come out of those research centers.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 21 Mar 2012 09:34

Name one Indian company that can do what Huawai does /

Answer

vina · Post by **vina** » 21 Mar 2012 10:10

wong wrote:The Chinese equivalent (it's not really equivalent) is called Artemisinin.

Which do you think will win a Nobel Prize in Medicine first, another way to reach the appendix or a drug that has saved millions. My guess is on the anti-malarial drug. It's already on a short, short list.

Artemisinin is "innovation" on the lines of Panda Poop Tea . Tea has been in existence since millenia, a Chinese entrepreneur convinced of the "70% nutrients left behind in Panda Poop" wants to use fertilizer to grow "fragrant and smooth" tea and the most expensive tea in the world .. Artemisinin is similar, the plant is known for millenia, the PRC isolates the molecule and probably studies it's pharmacology and makes it "better" (ie innovation on existing knowledge , like adding Panda Poop as fertilizer to tea plant).

Sorry, you REALLY dont know what you are talking about. If you wanted to quote an example, I think the Chinese Tissue Culture vaccine for Japanese Encephalitis is a much better example of innovation. That is a good achievement.

China is innovative, but the innovation is probably in hundreds of small and medium enterprises out of the Shenzen model, rather than the big state funded behemoths of the "Shanghai model" based on stolen IP, preferential market access, unlimited access to the state's balance sheet to extend ultra cheap suppliers credit and all of this with very little innovation worth the money spent.

amit · Post by **amit** » 21 Mar 2012 12:00

ashi wrote:This is well known. But core tech don't come out of those research centers.

And in the case of the Huawei chip we are discussing, where exactly does it come from?

Boss what Huawei has done with the chip is commendable. However, that's a process improvement. You can't call that innovation. A lot of other companies have achieved similar results using different designs. At the most you can claim that the Huawei process is the most efficient. As regards IP I'd follow what Raja is saying. Let's just say, without revealing anything, that he knows what he's talking about.

Innovation is when something dramatically new is discovered/produced or there's a significant up-gradation/improvement to an existing product. The first iPhone is a classic example of the second instance where the concept of a smart phone was taken to a new level. Fujio Masuoka's discovery of Nor and Nand flash is an example of the latter.

Sorry to have to say this, but the Huawei chip does not fall in either category.