PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

[amit]

Here's another indication of the things to come:

China Auto Sales May Miss Growth Goal on Economy, Fuel Costs

March 20 (Bloomberg) -- China’s vehicle sales this year will probably miss their 8 percent growth forecast as the slowing economy and rising fuel costs curb buying, said an official at the state-backed auto association.

Total vehicle deliveries may fail to increase by even 5 percent because of the “difficult” economic backdrop, Gu Xianghua, deputy secretary general of the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers, said today, citing his personal opinion.

Less than 5 percent growth would result in China’s auto market expanding at a slower pace than the estimated increases in the U.S., Japan and India. {holy sh!t is that possible? the great Panda market will grow less than the SDRE Injun market?} Pessimism is mounting over sales in the world’s largest auto market after Premier Wen Jiabao this month forecast gross domestic product may expand 7.5 percent, the lowest target since 2004, and fuel prices were increased for the second time in less than six weeks today.

Gu’s estimate falls short of the 7.8 percent growth estimated at Macquarie Group Ltd. Global vehicle sales growth will probably accelerate to 4.6 percent this year from 4.1 percent in 2011, led by a 7.2 percent increase in the U.S., 20 percent expansion in Japan and a 10 percent advance in India, according to Macquarie estimates this month.

Total sales including cars, trucks and buses in January and February shrank 6 percent from a year earlier, according to CAAM data. The group on Jan. 12 forecast deliveries would reach 20 million this year, which would make China the first country to ever do so.

The slowdown in the market has also affected luxury car sales, a segment whose growth has outperformed the overall market over the last two years. Dealers for high-end car marques such as Mercedes Benz, Audi and BMW are dangling the biggest discounts seen since 2009 as competition intensifies and demand growth weakens.

[Raja Bose]

Look at what i have posted before. I am merely saying a new chip from Huawei.

Tut tut my dear biladel. Brazening it out won't change the truth unfortunately. Here is the sequence of your original posts, to refresh your memory (too much huffing-puffing with rage will overheat your memory chips and may unseat them from their sockets - surely with your knowledge of SoCs, processors, chips and what-not, you know that? or does you have SMT? ):

Really? What has India innovated so far? China at least has Huawei. What is the equivalent of Huawei in India?

If you step out of your own imaginary world and look around a bit,

Huawei's new chip

So basically you were not merely saying Huawei has a "new chip" - plenty of companies have that. What you were trying to boast about was the Huawei has this super-duper new chip it has invented which is faster than all smartphone chips out there and trying to use that as an example of innovation. Now that you got caught in a lie that Huawei's new chip is not their own invention in any sense of the word, you are trying to downhill ski by saying this

Look at what i have posted before. I am merely saying a new chip from Huawei.

First, I didn't say it is homegrown. The article says it is. And I don't disagree with that.

Fascinating logic. So as per your above post, basically you agree that it is a homegrown chip? You do know that NOT disagreeing == agreeing. Or does Huawei's new chip run on something other than boolean logic

Second, you and gakakad were just trying to confuse people with a SoC and a processor.

In an application SoC, hardware accelerators are sometimes more important than the core processor. E.g: a network processor. The accelerator engines for security application and traffic classification is as much or more important than the core processor which runs the control path. This is the same for the GPU and hardware accelerators in Huawei's new mobile chip.

Yet Huawei did not even build the GPU on its own and is afraid to reveal the 'unnamed American company' who did it. And the impression from potential buyers of this sooper-dooper chip is that its too risky to use it in volume for the fear of getting sued. Go figure.

Now GPU designers or for that matter IC designers who design processors are not exactly a very big community in the US (or anywhere else). Then how come none of the usual suspects have been involved in the design of this sooper-dooper GPU? And IC design in general is also not some disruptive field where some unknown one fine day jumps in with a design which works perfectly and beats everybody else either.

What I found funny is some of you trying to dismiss everything China has done. What you wish to achieve but cannot achieve, you just hope that would not be any good to others. That's typically called sour grape. Name one Indian company that can do what Huawai does. None!

Ah! There you see is the difference between the way we think and the way you think. You are indoctrinated from the very beginning to not question anything and believe what the big party tells you as the gospel truth even if it flies in the face of common sense. Appearance is everything! If appearance has a blemish, hide it! If you can't hide it, pretend you can't see it! But never confess that there is a blemish and that needs to be fixed. That is a nutshell is what I see - right from the poor chinese girl who sang in the Beijing Olympics but got lip-sync'ed by a more 'attractive' girl to peddling dubious claims of Huawei's new chip as some mark of fantastic innovation.

BTW you are right, not one Indian company can do what Huawei does simply becoz if any Indian company did what Huawei does, the CEO of that company would be in prison and the company's license would be cancelled. (I see that gakakkad has posted a picture which says the same thing. For our chinese biladels who are wondering what that pic is all about. That pic is of music composer Bappi Lahiri who is famous for copying tunes from other composers and has made his name doing that - his records sell millions but nobody claims he is innovative or original....just like Huawei ).

Not one person here has said that Huawei won't succeed in making their own chip in the future but if you want to post some minor achievement, dress it up as a major innovation and expect us to fall over ourselves in awe (just like your fellow biladels are expected to) - be prepared to get ridiculed.

Nobody's trying to dismiss everything China has done. Rather you and your biladels are trying hard to claim innovation and achievements out of thin air by making dubious claims - you don't seem to be satisfied with China's real scale of achievements. You seem desperate to prove by hook or crook that China is more innovative even if it means sugar coating non-achievements as achievements. Like I said that is a sign of insecurity on your part - it stems from the fact that you are not comfortable with the reality which is not as rosy as you would like everybody to believe. We as Indians are comfortable with our reality and we work to better it. We don't want to live in la-la land like you guys pretending that everything is blemish-free and world must bow down before us. For us reality matters much more than appearances.

[Singha]

imo mainland chinese claiming credit for taiwanese doing well in usa is a bit strange, kind of like indians claiming credit for paks like adbus salaam .... in my opinion credit should be claimed for 1st NRI/NRC gen only - those who were educated in india/china and then moved somewhere .. not their kids or their kids....

in that context VS naipaul (if he didnt study in india), jerry yang , any taiwanese success in usa, amar bose do not qualify .. and certainly none of the sinic or indic kids in intel contests!

media will shout all they want, but doesnt make it true.

[Raja Bose]

Ashi, you are probably not familiar with the silicon market. Intel and Huawei BOTH have large development centers in India. Samsung's ARM derivatives are designed in India, as are so many others. It would be easier for you to understand India doesn't denigrate such achievements - it is mostly contributing to them.

Marten, research centers in India and China all contribute to companies Intel, Microsoft, Cisco. This is well known. But core tech don't come out of those research centers.

Actually the Xeon E7 family was entirely designed at Intel Bangalore.

[wrdos]

Car is a good example.
India states its consumption is as strong as half of China, despite the 1/4 GDP size. However, all items consumed in India is between 1/6 to 1/10 of China. If i made no mistake, India auto sale is only 1/8 of China, right? Let alone that most cars sold in India are so tiny.

Here's another indication of the things to come:

[vina]

Actually the Xeon E7 family was entirely designed at Intel Bangalore.

Many of the Analog Devices latest gen DSPs are designed in India, nearly every IBM software division (including critical ones like DB2, WebSphere etc) have parts of their team located in India, same with Netzilla a whole host of product development is wholly done out of India or the team extends into India. This is leaving out guys like SAP and Oracle which have large sized teams in India and includes folks like Product Managers sitting here.. GE's labs in Bangalore develops products entirely here in some areas . There are tons of other smaller companies that do their product development totally out of India and have just sales , marketing and management front ends in US !

While many multi nationals do have their labs in China as well, none of the core work gets done there , precisely because of the 'Huawei' kind of "innovation" with Cisco's code. The IP will disappear and you will be flooded with counterfeited products before you can say the "Gleat Warr of China" . I think the Chinese posters here are just assuming that just because it doesn't happen in China, it mustn't happen in India as well and are just projecting their experiential bias here. Most of the multinational labs in China are in terms of "localization", "field testing" etc kind of things rather than the basic meat and potatoes.

[Singha]

in some cases there is tieup and collab between the indic and sinic arms of eu/usa cos because the products need to be made for emerging mkts, so whoever does it first, works with and transfers knowledge to the other. take things like a household water filter for example which are not needed in rich countries with drinkable tap water...such products get increasingly designed in india/china/brazil...
in my wifes previous job the knowledge txfer was india->china, in current job its china->india...with engineers spending extended times in each others facilities.

product development is increasingly not contained within a single country alone but spans multiple sites across the globe....both for cost, expertise and market reasons and because MBA types like to see "follow the sun development model" on the PPT

[ashi]

Look at what i have posted before. I am merely saying a new chip from Huawei.

Tut tut my dear biladel. Brazening it out won't change the truth unfortunately. Here is the sequence of your original posts, to refresh your memory (too much huffing-puffing with rage will overheat your memory chips and may unseat them from their sockets - surely with your knowledge of SoCs, processors, chips and what-not, you know that? or does you have SMT? ):

Really? What has India innovated so far? China at least has Huawei. What is the equivalent of Huawei in India?

If you step out of your own imaginary world and look around a bit,

Huawei's new chip

So basically you were not merely saying Huawei has a "new chip" - plenty of companies have that. What you were trying to boast about was the Huawei has this super-duper new chip it has invented which is faster than all smartphone chips out there and trying to use that as an example of innovation. Now that you got caught in a lie that Huawei's new chip is not their own invention in any sense of the word, you are trying to downhill ski by saying this

Look at what i have posted before. I am merely saying a new chip from Huawei.

First, I didn't say it is homegrown. The article says it is. And I don't disagree with that.

Fascinating logic. So as per your above post, basically you agree that it is a homegrown chip? You do know that NOT disagreeing == agreeing. Or does Huawei's new chip run on something other than boolean logic

Second, you and gakakad were just trying to confuse people with a SoC and a processor.

In an application SoC, hardware accelerators are sometimes more important than the core processor. E.g: a network processor. The accelerator engines for security application and traffic classification is as much or more important than the core processor which runs the control path. This is the same for the GPU and hardware accelerators in Huawei's new mobile chip.

Yet Huawei did not even build the GPU on its own and is afraid to reveal the 'unnamed American company' who did it. And the impression from potential buyers of this sooper-dooper chip is that its too risky to use it in volume for the fear of getting sued. Go figure.

Now GPU designers or for that matter IC designers who design processors are not exactly a very big community in the US (or anywhere else). Then how come none of the usual suspects have been involved in the design of this sooper-dooper GPU? And IC design in general is also not some disruptive field where some unknown one fine day jumps in with a design which works perfectly and beats everybody else either.

What I found funny is some of you trying to dismiss everything China has done. What you wish to achieve but cannot achieve, you just hope that would not be any good to others. That's typically called sour grape. Name one Indian company that can do what Huawai does. None!

Ah! There you see is the difference between the way we think and the way you think. You are indoctrinated from the very beginning to not question anything and believe what the big party tells you as the gospel truth even if it flies in the face of common sense. Appearance is everything! If appearance has a blemish, hide it! If you can't hide it, pretend you can't see it! But never confess that there is a blemish and that needs to be fixed. That is a nutshell is what I see - right from the poor chinese girl who sang in the Beijing Olympics but got lip-sync'ed by a more 'attractive' girl to peddling dubious claims of Huawei's new chip as some mark of fantastic innovation.

BTW you are right, not one Indian company can do what Huawei does simply becoz if any Indian company did what Huawei does, the CEO of that company would be in prison and the company's license would be cancelled. (I see that gakakkad has posted a picture which says the same thing. For our chinese biladels who are wondering what that pic is all about. That pic is of music composer Bappi Lahiri who is famous for copying tunes from other composers and has made his name doing that - his records sell millions but nobody claims he is innovative or original....just like Huawei ).

Not one person here has said that Huawei won't succeed in making their own chip in the future but if you want to post some minor achievement, dress it up as a major innovation and expect us to fall over ourselves in awe (just like your fellow biladels are expected to) - be prepared to get ridiculed.

Nobody's trying to dismiss everything China has done. Rather you and your biladels are trying hard to claim innovation and achievements out of thin air by making dubious claims - you don't seem to be satisfied with China's real scale of achievements. You seem desperate to prove by hook or crook that China is more innovative even if it means sugar coating non-achievements as achievements. Like I said that is a sign of insecurity on your part - it stems from the fact that you are not comfortable with the reality which is not as rosy as you would like everybody to believe. We as Indians are comfortable with our reality and we work to better it. We don't want to live in la-la land like you guys pretending that everything is blemish-free and world must bow down before us. For us reality matters much more than appearances.

Just have to hand it to you. What a big load of xxxx you just have released. From lip sync to sugar coating tech to we Indians don't pretend this and that.

[amit]

While many multi nationals do have their labs in China as well, none of the core work gets done there , precisely because of the 'Huawei' kind of "innovation" with Cisco's code. The IP will disappear and you will be flooded with counterfeited products before you can say the "Gleat Warr of China" . I think the Chinese posters here are just assuming that just because it doesn't happen in China, it mustn't happen in India as well and are just projecting their experiential bias here. Most of the multinational labs in China are in terms of "localization", "field testing" etc kind of things rather than the basic meat and potatoes.

Just to add a bit of meat to what Vina is saying, let me quote from a previous post of mine here

China today hosts about 1,000 foreign-owned R&D labs. Yet, with rare exceptions, these labs focus primarily on local adaptations of innovations developed elsewhere, rather than the development of leading-edge technologies and products for global markets.

Tech company executives are eager to leverage the quality and scale of China's talent pool. However, given the indigenous innovation measures, they do not trust China as a secure location for leading-edge R&D.

These policy differences appear to have a significant influence on corporate behavior. Consider the top 10 U.S.-based technology giants that received the most patents from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office between 2006 and 2010: IBM, Microsoft, Intel, Hewlett-Packard, Micron, GE, Cisco, Texas Instruments, Broadcom and Honeywell.

Half of these companies appear not to be doing any significant R&D work in China. Between 2006 and 2010, the U.S. Patent Office did not award a single patent to any China-based units of five out of the 10 companies. In contrast, only one of the 10 did not receive a patent for an innovation developed in India.

India has proven more fertile territory for these companies. For the 10 tech giants taken together, India-based labs received more patents (1,119) than did China-based labs (886) during this period.

At a company level, the difference can be even more striking. For the seven out of 10 companies where Indian units received more patents than Chinese labs, the aggregate numbers were 978 vs. 164. Only a strong showing for China from two outliers, Microsoft and Intel, pulled up its aggregate filings—Chinese labs at those two companies secured 722 patents compared to 141 from Indian labs.

[amit]

Car is a good example.
India states its consumption is as strong as half of China, despite the 1/4 GDP size. However, all items consumed in India is between 1/6 to 1/10 of China. If i made no mistake, India auto sale is only 1/8 of China, right? Let alone that most cars sold in India are so tiny.

Here's another indication of the things to come:

Wrdos,

You are displaying a very good example of what one of the senior board members here call, "Open fly, torn shirt", style of arguing. You will be gratified to know that this phrase was developed in the context of your best pals, the "Taller than Mountains, Deeper than Oceans" friends that you have on the western border of India.

In case you don't understand what the phrase means, it runs something like this. (Hypothetically) when someone points out that your fly is open, instead of attempting to close the chain, you say, "So what?", your shirt is torn and thus jump away from the main contention that your fly is open.

I post a report, quoting Chinese officials saying that the Chinese auto industry is slowing down and then you say, so what, the Chinese market is bigger than the Indian market as if that's all that matters. Who knows maybe that's really the case!

But wait did you know that India beats the pants off China in the auto export market? Link here.

It is the third largest export hub in Asia, just behind Japan and South Korea. Now if the Indian market continues to grow above 8 per cent (see the report I posted and remember there was a serious credit crunch in India where most people by cars on credit) and the Chinese market slows down then what will happen? And the Indian market is growing and will continue to grow because a significant section of the production is exported.

Very soon a peep into that open fly will show that whatever was inside flew away!

Added later: I see the comment in color in my previous post really had the desired effect!

Less than 5 percent growth would result in China’s auto market expanding at a slower pace than the estimated increases in the U.S., Japan and India. {holy sh!t is that possible? the great Panda market will grow less than the SDRE Injun market?} Pessimism is mounting over sales in the world’s largest auto market after Premier Wen Jiabao this month forecast gross domestic product may expand 7.5 percent, the lowest target since 2004, and fuel prices were increased for the second time in less than six weeks today.

[gakakkad]

and certainly none of the sinic or indic kids in intel contests!

actually a lot of Indian citizens studying in Indian schools do well in intel contests. I too took part in it in my school days myself . some of the ideas that Indian (totally indian ,studying in India) are extra-ordinary .

[gakakkad]

I brought the topic of innovation up , because IDEV posted a book , written by a chinese author (yasheng huang) and I quoted text excerpts from it..


Let me repost it..




PAGE 193

But, to some extent, this was a hollow victory. For one thing, the fact that
Artesunate is the only Chinese drug certified by WHO says something about
the state of the pharmaceutical industry in China. On the WHO List of PreQualified Medicines as of August 2006 – the list is updated regularly – there
are eighty-three HIV/AIDs drugs supplied by five indigenous Indian firms
and there are six tuberculosis drugs supplied by three Indian firms.As impressive as Shanghai Fuxing is within China, it lags substantially behind
its Indian peers.

For another matter, strictly speaking, Shanghai Fuxing had very little to
do with developing Artesunate. Artesunate is registered by Guilin Pharmaceutical
located in Guizhou province. Shanghai Fuxing acquired Guilin
Pharmaceutical a few years ago, long after the drug discovery and development
were well underway. In fact, Shanghai Fuxing is not really a pharmaceutical
firm. It is a holding firm of many diverse assets. It operates in
four unrelated areas – pharmaceuticals, real estate, steel, and retailing. Its
founder has no background in the life sciences. He received a PhD degree
in Chinese philosophy from Fudan University.

The reason why I gave the example of the transgastric appendectomy is because I met the guy who did it recently at a conference . and it was a first example that came to my mind. to a lay person ,it may not mean much. But to a doctor it is a highly innovative procedure..My wife is about to join a fellowship in gastroenterology so basically talks about this all day. the guy is based at hyderabad and plenty of Americans visit the asian institute of gastroenterology there for training..

[Raja Bose]

Just have to hand it to you. What a big load of xxxx you just have released. From lip sync to sugar coating tech to we Indians don't pretend this and that.

Come come biladel. Is that lame answer all you can respond with? Now are you going to pretend the lip-syncing becoz the poor girl wasn't 'pretty enough' didn't happen too? I guess truth hurts.

BTW your friend 'sha' hasn't responded yet - which article on TheVerge reviewed Huawei's new sooper dooper Ascend D phone with Huawei's new sooper dooper chip and claimed it beats Tegra3 based LTE handsets? And the Ascend D phone which was tested was the LTE version or non-LTE? I am really curious. Maybe sometimes you guys forget that we don't live behind the Gleat Firewall hence please don't post stuff which is so blatantly false that it only sets you up for ridicule. Your attempts to do an "Open fly torn shirt" only results in everybody noticing that you have no pants!

[kancha]

What are the odds that one of the 'biladels' actually gets converted to a non commie? The truth can certainly set them free

[ashi]

Just have to hand it to you. What a big load of xxxx you just have released. From lip sync to sugar coating tech to we Indians don't pretend this and that.

Come come biladel. Is that lame answer all you can respond with? Now are you going to pretend the lip-syncing becoz the poor girl wasn't 'pretty enough' didn't happen too? I guess truth hurts.

BTW your friend 'sha' hasn't responded yet - which article on TheVerge reviewed Huawei's new sooper dooper Ascend D phone with Huawei's new sooper dooper chip and claimed it beats Tegra3 based LTE handsets? And the Ascend D phone which was tested was the LTE version or non-LTE? I am really curious. Maybe sometimes you guys forget that we don't live behind the Gleat Firewall hence please don't post stuff which is so blatantly false that it only sets you up for ridicule. Your attempts to do an "Open fly torn shirt" only results in everybody noticing that you have no pants!

My friend Raja sorheight, can you stop the bs for a second and answer my question: name one Indian company can do what Huawei does? and name one Indian software company with a software prodcut that is known to the world? Some of you likes to say "we are software suparpowa", we do the core work for Oracle, microsoft. How does the super innovation nano car and $35 tablet Aakash which are supposed to be earth shaking go? I hate to lower my standard to your level to do this kind of writing but you ask for it.

[shyam]

How does the super innovation nano car

In fact, TATA Nano is a super innovation, if you understand what innovation is. Innovation is not just integrating more things to make bigger things.

In terms of innovation, TATA Nano comes after Ford T4, and Volkswagen Beetle. It is an achievement that even Japanese or Chinese could not do.

[gakakkad]

Some of you likes to say "we are software suparpowa",

That part is not really true .. The actual achievements Indian IT/Electronics industry are way behind the achievements of the Indian chemical , heavy engineering or pharma Industry . "IT Superpower" is a name TOIlet and other tabloids have given us. I doubt any br-fite uses it . If you look at the research output per country stats , India is amongst the leaders in material science, chemical engineering , pharma, heavy engineering etc. But it is ranked 10-12th in software and electronics. The Indian basic industries are unsung heroes .

So far most of India's software has been mainly process and outsourcing driven . It is only now that innovation has kicked in.

w.r.t higher end electronics , in 1980s a lot of manufacturing was transferred to south east asia .. But our politicians then did not permit them to set up factories in India . My dad tells me that in those days there was a lot of commie rhetoric against computers ..Now malaysia manufactures micro-processors. Other SE-Asian ecoomies manufacture hard drives etc. India does none yet. We kind of missed the opportunity back in 80s .

It is only now that real signs of growth and innovation are emerging in elec/software industry. There is a shift to product from processes and servies in the IT industries. We don't have too many world renowned softwares yet. But we ll get them .Don't worry.

Electronics manufacturing in India today is barely 40 billion per annum. But it is growing real fast. In 10 years time it is expected to be like 500 b. When it reaches the size , innovation will be automatically follow. Our companies today are where samsung was a decade and a half ago.


China on the other hand has reached a large size in electronics manufacturing. It is the largest or the 2nd largest in it. Yet we see no signs of innovation . No chinese equivalent of samsung or intel. now that is a problem. Most of the size achieved was steroidal growth . By FDIs . By pumping in printed money backed by the US dollar. There is no innovatoion in there . We can't expect any out of a totalitarian economy . Even the teenie meenie Taiwan has done better than you guys ..

[Raja Bose]

My friend Raja sorheight, can you stop the bs for a second and answer my question: name one Indian company can do what Huawei does?

I guess you missed my answer in your rage to post Here it is re-quoted again (or you can scroll up to read the whole thing):

BTW you are right, not one Indian company can do what Huawei does simply becoz if any Indian company did what Huawei does, the CEO of that company would be in prison and the company's license would be cancelled. (I see that gakakkad has posted a picture which says the same thing. For our chinese biladels who are wondering what that pic is all about. That pic is of music composer Bappi Lahiri who is famous for copying tunes from other composers and has made his name doing that - his records sell millions but nobody claims he is innovative or original....just like Huawei ).

BTW speaking of BS, I am still waiting for my answer to this:

which article on TheVerge reviewed Huawei's new sooper dooper Ascend D phone with Huawei's new sooper dooper chip and claimed it beats Tegra3 based LTE handsets? And the Ascend D phone which was tested - was it the non-LTE version or the LTE version?

My dear Biladels, please do some research, stop blindly copy-pasting self-serving press releases with no factual basis, learn what you are talking about and perhaps we won't be taking off your undies in every post here - that will be a good 1st step on the path to be taken seriously Till then you will continue to provide us daily entertainment and just give yourself needless heartburn (BTW gakakkad is a doctor in case you need prescription advice for heart burn).

[vina]

TATA Nano is a super innovation, if you understand what innovation is. Innovation is not just integrating more things to make bigger things

Tata Nano is ACTUALLY innovation. Compare that with the Chinese did with their "Nano", the Chery QQ ! Steal the blue prints and get the used dyes and fixtures from the junkyard,and the engine and everything and make a crappy copy of the Daewoo Matiz and call it "Chery QQ" . Heck, nearly every panel of the QQ was interchangable with the Daewoo Matiz that was sold right alongside in China!

Problem is just look up the Youtube videos of the crappy Cherry QQ failing every crash test with the worst possible scores and rubbish in terms of emissions (it is a stolen mid 90s engine tech after all) and contrast that with the crash test videos of the Nano and it's Euro IV and V compliant engines and to top that off, the Nano is far cheaper than even the picked up from the Junkyard Chery QQ!

Much of Chinese Innovation in the "Shanghai Model" is on the lines of Chery QQ . Stolen IP, garbage copies of the originals,zero economic sense in doing it if rational costing and returns are expected .

In fact, it is easy to call the bluff on the Shanghai model. Despite having the "largest auto market in the world by volumes" (this was tom tommed here by the Chinese posters last year), name ONE , just ONE innovation, however small from a mainline automobile company in China either in terms of technology, product innovation or even something new like a new product category! None that I can think of.

Even the famous Chinese two wheelers fail the emission tests here in India and cannot be sold here and quality wise are rubbish when compared to what we already have here and you really have to be insane to buy any chinese bike here , unless of course you are Pakistan or Nigeria or Rwanda or Congo or some such market where you can get away by selling absolute garbage at dirt cheap prices and get away with it.

[Sri]

and name one Indian software company with a software prodcut that is known to the world?

You asked for one example... here it is... There are many more... keep asking I'll keep telling...

http://www.infosys.com/finacle/pages/index.aspx

[amit]

How does the super innovation nano car and $35 tablet Aakash which are supposed to be earth shaking go? I hate to lower my standard to your level to do this kind of writing but you ask for it.

No my dear Ashi, you don't need to lower you standards you need to upscale them.

No innovation in Tata Nano eh? Well maybe folks at Businessweek need to be given a lecture by you.

Read the article, I can't be bothered to spoonfeed you with quotes.

Just note the headline is this:

Learning from Tata's Nano
The innovations of the $2,500 car carry important lessons for Western executives

Also you know what? The Tata Nano is on display at the prestigious Smithsonian's Cooper-Hewitt, National Design Museum. How many Chinese cars made in the supar dopar largest auto market in the worl has found its way there?

Read this NYT piece as well.

Your point about software is also way off mark. India is a super power in IT Services Industry as opposed to shrink wrapped software. I think you should look at two things. The first is how many Indian IT services companies have the Carnegie Mellon CMMI Level 5 certifications vs a vs Chinese companies. The second is how often the top five Indian companies are taking away business from Accenture and IBM. It's not for nothing that these two along with others like Cap Gemminai etc have huge multi-location centres in India. If I'm not wrong India contributes the largest pool of workers for IBM, ever wondered why?

You really are getting your undies in a twist.

[amit]

Meanwhile, welcome to the Brave New World.

China Quietly Relaxes Controls on Foreign Capital

The move, not publicly announced but disclosed by some private money managers, indicates that Chinese officials are anxious to counter a rising flight of capital from the country, a worsening slump in real estate prices, a weak stock market and at least a temporary trade deficit caused by a steep bill for oil imports. Those concerns have evidently started to offset fears of the potentially inflationary effects of big inflows of foreign cash.

Letting in more foreign money could help stabilize the Chinese stock market and real estate market at a time when the country’s political environment is unsettled, with the dismissal last week of Bo Xilai as the Communist Party secretary of Chongqing and with the approach next autumn of a once-in-a-decade change in the country’s top leadership.

The Shanghai stock market dropped 1.4 percent on Tuesday and is down 22.2 percent from its high in mid-April last year, although up slightly from its lows in early January.

The government has deliberately engineered a fall in real estate prices to address widespread concerns about housing affordability, and has used mostly administrative tools to do so, like banning most purchases of second or third homes. But real estate developers and investors say the plunge in prices has taken on its own momentum.

The last part would come as a surprise to our Chinese guests, but this has been predicted on this thread a long time ago.

It would be interesting to here Chola saabs take on the latest developments. It seem there's a end to even this mega party.

[ashi]

No my dear Ashi, you don't need to lower you standards you need to upscale them.

No innovation in Tata Nano eh? Well maybe folks at Businessweek need to be given a lecture by you.

Read the article, I can't be bothered to spoonfeed you with quotes.

Just note the headline is this:

Learning from Tata's Nano
The innovations of the $2,500 car carry important lessons for Western executives

Also you know what? The Tata Nano is on display at the prestigious Smithsonian's Cooper-Hewitt, National Design Museum. How many Chinese cars made in the supar dopar largest auto market in the worl has found its way there?

Read this NYT piece as well.

Your point about software is also way off mark. India is a super power in IT Services Industry as opposed to shrink wrapped software. I think you should look at two things. The first is how many Indian IT services companies have the Carnegie Mellon CMMI Level 5 certifications vs a vs Chinese companies. The second is how often the top five Indian companies are taking away business from Accenture and IBM. It's not for nothing that these two along with others like Cap Gemminai etc have huge multi-location centres in India. If I'm not wrong India contributes the largest pool of workers for IBM, ever wondered why?

You really are getting your undies in a twist.

Wow, Amit Ji, I am totally dazzled by the success and greatness of Nano.

Nano! Nano!

Also you guys not only making the best and cheapest car, the cheapest tablet is also ground breaking.

Aakash! Aakash!

[ashi]

I guess you missed my answer in your rage to post Here it is re-quoted again (or you can scroll up to read the whole thing):

BTW you are right, not one Indian company can do what Huawei does simply becoz if any Indian company did what Huawei does, the CEO of that company would be in prison and the company's license would be cancelled. (I see that gakakkad has posted a picture which says the same thing. For our chinese biladels who are wondering what that pic is all about. That pic is of music composer Bappi Lahiri who is famous for copying tunes from other composers and has made his name doing that - his records sell millions but nobody claims he is innovative or original....just like Huawei ).

Sure, you guys are holier than thou. I am well aware of your corruption free government and law abide citizen.

[Sri]

No my dear Ashi, you don't need to lower you standards you need to upscale them.

No innovation in Tata Nano eh? Well maybe folks at Businessweek need to be given a lecture by you.

Read the article, I can't be bothered to spoonfeed you with quotes.

Just note the headline is this:

Learning from Tata's Nano
The innovations of the $2,500 car carry important lessons for Western executives

Also you know what? The Tata Nano is on display at the prestigious Smithsonian's Cooper-Hewitt, National Design Museum. How many Chinese cars made in the supar dopar largest auto market in the worl has found its way there?

Read this NYT piece as well.

Your point about software is also way off mark. India is a super power in IT Services Industry as opposed to shrink wrapped software. I think you should look at two things. The first is how many Indian IT services companies have the Carnegie Mellon CMMI Level 5 certifications vs a vs Chinese companies. The second is how often the top five Indian companies are taking away business from Accenture and IBM. It's not for nothing that these two along with others like Cap Gemminai etc have huge multi-location centres in India. If I'm not wrong India contributes the largest pool of workers for IBM, ever wondered why?

You really are getting your undies in a twist.

Wow, Amit Ji, I am totally dazzled by the success and greatness of Nano.

Nano! Nano!

Ashi Ji Check this out:

http://www.mahindraxuv500.com/#buzz

[Gus]

Wow, Amit Ji, I am totally dazzled by the success and greatness of Nano.

Nano! Nano!

What's your point? Nobody is saying Nano is selling great.

It is still an innovative design precisely because the team looked at every part that goes into a car and reviewed it from the pov of a nano design principles. They did come up with a car that can be made cheap while also being a basic car. I have driven one extensively and it is a design marvel for its price point.

Not all innovations sell great. But the idea is that if you keep at it, something will click and you get rewarded. Not by copying and selling at lower margins to swamp competition in captive markets and coming and posting here "show me an Indian Huawei".

[ashi]

What's your point? Nobody is saying Nano is selling great.

It is still an innovative design precisely because the team looked at every part that goes into a car and reviewed it from the pov of a nano design principles. They did come up with a car that can be made cheap while also being a basic car. I have driven one extensively and it is a design marvel for its price point.

Not all innovations sell great. But the idea is that if you keep at it, something will click and you get rewarded. Not by copying and selling at lower margins to swamp competition in captive markets and coming and posting here "show me an Indian Huawei".

Most people rather buying a second hand Japanese used car, than spend the same money to buy a brand new Nano. What does that tell you? Budget buyer look for biggest bang for the buck. They have given their vote.

[Raja Bose]

Sure, you guys are holier than thou. I am well aware of your corruption free government and law abide citizen.

Poor biladel - you went from gassing about "Huawei Innovation" and Gleat Chinese Innovation Machine to bleating weakly about how corrupt Indian govt is? Like I said earlier, we Indians prefer to live in reality, blemishes and all. So you wont find anybody on this forum claiming that India has no corruption and there is no law-and-order problem - the only people claiming that about their own country on this forum seems to be you and your Chinese biladels. And what does India's corruption and law-and-order situation have anything to do with Huawei, SoCs and innovation, which was the topic under discussion?

I guess having grown up in a totalitarian regime, for you anything less than blind absolute acceptance of something even if that is BS, is considered being holier-than-thou. I bet you have rage-filled wet dreams like your Paki biladels such as Zaid Hamid, that one day the world which is ridiculing you for your stupidity will be conquered by your kind and then they will be forced to worship you!

[vina]

Most people rather buying a second hand Japanese used car, than spend the same money to buy a brand new Nano. What does that tell you? Budget buyer look for biggest bang for the buck. They have given their vote.

My word. Drone training must be scraping the bottom in terms of quality. What else can I make of this one here ?

Ask said Drone to make ONE , just ONE example of innovation from a mainline manufacturer in the worlds "largest auto market" and we have this. And about 2nd hand cars, Nano outsells, every other car in it's market segment and I am willing to take a bet with you ($10 as usual) that over the next 2 years, it will be the single largest selling model in India. Just wait till the diesel version is introduced and the more upscale models get turned out.

You need to understand that the Nano like the Indica, is a Platform, that will give birth to other models/derivatives and make money over a 7 to 12 year period!

The Nano has also spun off other more innovative ones like Tata Pixel and Tata Mega Pixel (just go through them in detail, really stunning concepts, innovative zero turn drives, and plug in hybrids and brilliant human machine interface, stuff that will fit in perfectly in advanced markets and compete on innovation and technology anywhere.

On the other hand, lets see what Chery did with it's stolen model, the QQ, they added a crappy looking trunk to it and are now calling it QQ-6! So much for innovation.

Check out these vidoes.

and this
.

When the Chinese auto industry can come up with something like this let us know . And Mahindra too has upped the game in India. I doubt that there is anything like the XUV500 from a Chinese manufacturer, stolen IP or otherwise.

[ashi]

Poor biladel - you went from gassing about "Huawei Innovation" and Gleat Chinese Innovation Machine to bleating weakly about how corrupt Indian govt is? Like I said earlier, we Indians prefer to live in reality, blemishes and all. So you wont find anybody on this forum claiming that India has no corruption and there is no law-and-order problem - the only people claiming that about their own country on this forum seems to be you and your Chinese biladels. And what does India's corruption and law-and-order situation have anything to do with Huawei, SoCs and innovation, which was the topic under discussion?

I guess having grown up in a totalitarian regime, for you anything less than blind absolute acceptance of something even if that is BS, is considered being holier-than-thou. I bet you have rage-filled wet dreams like your Paki biladels such as Zaid Hamid, that one day the world which is ridiculing you for your stupidity will be conquered by your kind and then they will be forced to worship you!

Dear Raja sorheight, in terms of talking no question you are the supapowa! You can keep that title and no one is going to compete with you. Huawei stealing or not, they are on the way of being the top three telecom sellers in India, contributing to the trade deficit that India has with China. That's $2Billion/month now. Expecting to be $5Billion/month in the next 2 years.

[Raja Bose]

Wait a sec...did you just say that Huawei might be stealing?

Really I tell you, the quality of the drones has gone down. The poor fellows don't even put up a fight any more. Its all shoot-and-scoot while leaving their undies behind and peachy bottoms exposed - must be bad habits learned from fraternizing too much with their TFTA Paki biladels

My dear ashi biladel, you still haven't produced even ONE reason why Huawei should be considered a shining example of the Gleat Chinese Innovation Machine? C'mon biladel, how hard can that be? Even your statement about Huawei becoming one of the top 3 telecom sellers in India is coming straight from a Huawei press release. And we all know the standards of Huawei press releases as your posts about Huawei's new 'innovative' smart phone processor has amply demonstrated.

[ashi]

Wait a sec...did you just say that Huawei might be stealing?

Really I tell you, the quality of the drones has gone down. The poor fellows don't even put up a fight any more. Its all shoot-and-scoot while leaving their undies behind and peachy bottoms exposed - must be bad habits learned from fraternizing too much with their TFTA Paki biladels

My dear ashi biladel, you still haven't produced even ONE reason why Huawei should be considered a shining example of the Gleat Chinese Innovation Machine? C'mon biladel, how hard can that be? Even your statement about Huawei becoming one of the top 3 telecom sellers in India is coming straight from a Huawei press release. And we all know the standards of Huawei press releases as your posts about Huawei's new 'innovative' smart phone processor has amply demonstrated.

Drones like you, when start fighting them, the person is already losing. Keep talking, we will keep counting money. Wow, wasn't that hard to use a smilies.

[Raja Bose]

Ah! My dear ashi biladel, I guess you don't like it when people call you out on your bluff, eh ? I guess you don't like it when people catch your pathetic little lies? Must be the effects of getting educated in a totalitarian state where freedom is not a nice word and being repressed is the norm and making a lot of money by hook or crook is considered the sole mark of innovation. Even art smugglers make a lot of money - I don't think they are considered innovative artists!

Now do takes the pains to learn who is a drone - in this case it would be a person who spends a great amount of time and effort to go into a forum from another country (BRF in this case) and pathetically tries to engage in 'My d1ck is bigger' arguments (it is another matter that in that process that very person's d1ck turns out to be non-existent!). Now I don't go to any Chinese forums proclaiming how my country India is the greatest on earth and master of the universe so I can't be a drone. I guess that leaves you my dear biladel, as the drone supreme. Congratulations!

[Raja Bose]

Drones like you, when start fighting them, the person is already losing. Keep talking, we will keep counting money. Wow, wasn't that hard to use a smilies.

AoA!!! Today is a red letter day! We have a CPC drone sail into BRF and accuse Indian members of being drones in an Indian forum! That is a new one

[ashi]

Ah! My dear ashi biladel, I guess you don't like it when people call you out on your bluff, eh ? I guess you don't like it when people catch your pathetic little lies? Must be the effects of getting educated in a totalitarian state where freedom is not a nice word and being repressed is the norm and making a lot of money by hook or crook is considered the sole mark of innovation. Even art smugglers make a lot of money - I don't think they are considered innovative artists!

Now do takes the pains to learn who is a drone - in this case it would be a person who spends a great amount of time and effort to go into a forum from another country (BRF in this case) and pathetically tries to engage in 'My d1ck is bigger' arguments (it is another matter that in that process that very person's d1ck turns out to be non-existent!). Now I don't go to any Chinese forums proclaiming how my country India is the greatest on earth and master of the universe so I can't be a drone. I guess that leaves you my dear biladel, as the drone supreme. Congratulations!

Raja my solheight friend, you are not going to a Chinese forum that's because you are a supapowa talker only in here. I don't come to this forum to claim China is the greatest on the earth. I challenge you to find that statement or anything I wrote to imply that. China has great amount of shortcomings, the road ahead for China is not going to be smooth. But China is still far better that the bs you wrote.

[ArmenT]

Sounds like lots of trash-talking going on guys.

Getting back on topic, I just read this on bunnie's blog:
http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2269

Basically talks about how the Chinese implemented tax-collection in a largely cash-only society. It is a pretty interesting idea and could potentially work in India as well.

[Raja Bose]

you are not going to a Chinese forum that's because you are a supapowa talker only in here.

Then who is the drone my dear biladel? Y-o-u! I am secure in my own identity and my nation's identity and progress - I don't feel the need to gate crash into other forums and desperately try to peddle fake achievements as hallmarks of my nation's innovation, hoping that someone would get tricked into bowing down in awe.

But China is still far better that the bs you wrote.

You mean just like the new innovative Huawei smartphone chip? I merely pointed out the invalid claims that you were making in your examples of Chinese innovation. I didn't make any claims for or against China being good or bad. You and your biladels are the ones who come in here daily, making tall claims, expect respect and awe and instead get ridiculed.....yet keep coming back for more punishment. Now that's the hallmark of a drone!

[ashi]

Then who is the drone my dear biladel? Y-o-u! I am secure in my own identity and my nation's identity and progress - I don't feel the need to gate crash into other forums and desperately try to peddle fake achievements as hallmarks of my nation's innovation, hoping that someone would get tricked into bowing down in awe.

Sure, you feel secure only in this forum and in your imaginary world. Stepping out it, it is very dangerous!

[Raja Bose]

Stepping out it, it is very dangerous!

^^^You mean like it has been for you?? Well if you put yourself in a ridiculous position, you will get ridiculed. Sorry biladel but you do provide good entertainment value for all of us here. I wonder where your fellow biladels wrdos and sha went (especially sha who promised to show me the evaluation of Huawei's new innovative sooper-dooper world-beating most-glorious SoC! ).

[ashi]

^^^You mean like it has been for you?? Well if you put yourself in a ridiculous position, you will get ridiculed. Sorry biladel but you do provide good entertainment value for all of us here.

Likewise, my solheight friend. I have fun watching you bsing. Your bs show has been wonderful