INS Vikrant News and Discussion

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Kashi
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Kashi » 30 Jul 2019 11:58

Cain Marko wrote:There is no denying that the rafale or shornet are more advanced than the K so who can blame the Navy for wanting a better product? Perhaps it has something to do with getting better prices via a competition? IIRC the DPP requires acquisitions of large amounts to be via tenders. Further, those 57 might be for the Vishal or perhaps it has something to do with naval tactics and diversification? But to assume that it is solely because of problems with the fulcrum is reaching IMHO.... Especially in light of the rather direct statement of the Chief. BTW the RFI was also sent to Mig, who knows, it might just be more fulcrums.


But to completely disregard that the new RFP is driven as much by the host of problems with the K as with the unavailability of NLCA is "reaching" as you put it.

As Nachiket and Brar_w pointed out, IAF has been topping up on MKI numbers, despite other alternatives being available- Rafale, Eurofighter etc. (even if not in the same class). One can reasonably assume that IAF is pretty content with MKI despite the reported availability issues that were later overcome to an extent during Swargiya Manohar Parrikar ji's tenure. IAF established a SEPARATE RFP for combat jets in the class of Rafale, Eurofighter etc and Rafales were eventually procured under this category. They did not replace the MKIs. IAF is inducting both MKIs and Rafales.

However, IN has shown no indication whatsoever to pursue additional Ks AND and the same time procure Rafales or SH under a different programme. No, the RFP is to acquire 57 jets in the SAME category as the K. I do not think it needs a great leap to reason to assume that IN has some very serious concerns with the K, which has had them deciding against expanding their existing K fleet. As you said, there should be accountability at all levels, as to why this situation came to a pass. But to absolve the Russians and MiG corporation of any fault in this matter is highly disingenuous.

Cain Marko
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Jul 2019 02:26

Hmm, please read my response to Nachiket, the Navy AFAIK had planned for a fleet mix of MiG 29K and NLCA. My guess is that for 2 carriers, the requirement would be about 90+ fighters, 45 fulcrums and the remaining (57?) NLCA. Unfortunately, the NLCA didn't work for them, what options do they have?
They cannot simply buy extra fulcrums from the Russkis. The size of the order demands a new competition and a bidding process as per DPP rules IIRC. The follow on clause was already exercised. Of course, the possibilty of the Shornet and Rafale working off Indian carriers despite the LIFT issue must sorely tempt the Navy to go the tender route - there is no denying that the latter two birds are in many ways superior to the K. Hence the Chief's statement "in lieu of the NLCA".
Bottomline - this is what the CNS has said verbatim, you can translate it as per your convenience. To me, the two CNS statements that I have referred to are good enough to go by and I will stick to these until more information comes out on either side of the argument
In any case, my question was - what options will the Navy exercise to maintain full squadron strength on both its carriers? The decision will have to be made soon. One wildcard/black horse possibility is that it somehow finds a way to make the NLCA work and that is probably why they are again showing interest in it.

Philip
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 31 Jul 2019 07:23

The Ru CV model shows approx. 30 aircraft on deck.At least another 30 in the hangar gives a huge no. carried.V.interesting design.

As to why no extra 29Ks have been bought, perhaps two reasons.Firstly, we have only one carrier operational.IAC-1 still hasn't arrived and we have enough birds for both.
The NLCA was hoped to make the grade and provide additional numbers, with some reports having it that either it does perform by the end of the year or it will be kaput! The 50+ whatever new birds were for the 65K t CV, which the IN lusts after but which will beggar the IN's budget, result in a lopsided fleet, short on subs, MCMs, etc.,as well as affecting the fortunes of the other two services.

It is very unlikely that the large CV will be approved at this juncture of eco. difficulties.Therefore, provided 29K issues have been resolved, I forsee a small qty. of extra 29Ks, perhaps upgraded, acquired post 2020 when IAC-1 joins the fleet and the first work-ups of the 29Ks have been completed.

Cain Marko
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Jul 2019 07:43

Philip wrote:The Ru CV model shows approx. 30 aircraft on deck.At least another 30 in the hangar gives a huge no. carried.V.interesting design.

As to why no extra 29Ks have been bought, perhaps two reasons.Firstly, we have only one carrier operational.IAC-1 still hasn't arrived and we have enough birds for both.
The NLCA was hoped to make the grade and provide additional numbers, with some reports having it that either it does perform by the end of the year or it will be kaput! The 50+ whatever new birds were for the 65K t CV, which the IN lusts after but which will beggar the IN's budget, result in a lopsided fleet, short on subs, MCMs, etc.,as well as affecting the fortunes of the other two services.

It is very unlikely that the large CV will be approved at this juncture of eco. difficulties.Therefore, provided 29K issues have been resolved, I forsee a small qty. of extra 29Ks, perhaps upgraded, acquired post 2020 when IAC-1 joins the fleet and the first work-ups of the 29Ks have been completed.


Interesting take Philip, I had forgotten the do or die timeline of the NLCA. Yes, getting an additional sqd or two of Ks is very possible.

However I don't think the 57 bird rfi has anything to do with the bigger CV. I believe it has everything to do with getting the existing carriers to work at capacity. IIRC both the Vs can carry up to 30 fixed wing a/cs and with just 45 current numbers, they'll be well short of that.

sivab
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby sivab » 18 Sep 2019 10:21

https://twitter.com/journalistHari/stat ... 6478601216

A. Harikumar


@journalistHari
2h2 hours ago
More
4 hrad disks containing vital details of #India's #aircraftcarrier #INSVIKRANT found stolen from #Cochin #Ship Yard, says report. Serious security breach. Spying likely

Vips
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 18 Sep 2019 18:08

Only in India :x

Sonugn
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Sonugn » 18 Sep 2019 18:23

Looks Like Internal Sabotage, Say CISF Insiders After Theft Onboard Under-Construction INS Vikrant

The Central Industrial Security Force (CISF) guards the deck of the under-construction ship to ward off any external attack from sea or land. The internal security is managed by a private company called DRS.

Electrical components and computer parts like four hard disks and processors were found missing after the theft at the Cochin Shipyard’s high-security zone.

Nikhil T
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 19 Sep 2019 01:26

Incredible that CISF won't protect our premier defence shipyard, though it protects our critical economic infrastructure like oil refineries and even some IT parks.

That said, its not hard to conceal such small items like hard disks and so, the responsibility here is more on the shipyard management that failed to secure the equipment (e.g. access control, chaining to desks).

chola
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 19 Sep 2019 03:53

Sonugn wrote:Looks Like Internal Sabotage, Say CISF Insiders After Theft Onboard Under-Construction INS Vikrant

The Central Industrial Security Force (CISF) guards the deck of the under-construction ship to ward off any external attack from sea or land. The internal security is managed by a private company called DRS.

Electrical components and computer parts like four hard disks and processors were found missing after the theft at the Cochin Shipyard’s high-security zone.


WTH? Was this stuff stolen from the ship or a building in the yard? Either is very bad but if from the ship then it is inconceivable to be perfectly honest. The bugler could easily have sabotaged other things on the ship.

vera_k
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby vera_k » 19 Sep 2019 09:47

Philip wrote:As to why no extra 29Ks have been bought, perhaps two reasons.Firstly, we have only one carrier operational.IAC-1 still hasn't arrived and we have enough birds for both.


But then what equipment will be used on the islands and in Gulf airbases? Is the Navy limited to using only planes that can land on ships?

SaiK
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Sep 2019 00:09

^^WTF is going in Kerala?

unacceptable! doing this on defence projects and secured places? we have to pull our pants and start looking at things at face value. Either be able to stop or move facilities away from KL

/rant.. couldn't help on this. something must be done. The first real burn was on Nambi Narayanan saar

Nikhil T
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 02 Nov 2019 03:12

Updates about INS Vikrant incident
INS VIkrant: Forensic experts to do fingerprint analysis

Forensic experts in Kerala police are scanning finger and palm prints of around 1,200 people, including Central Industrial Security Force (CISF) officials, engineers and non-technical staff, to find the thief or thieves who stole hard disks, RAMs and processors from INS Vikrant, the country’s first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC). The vessel is being built by the Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) in Kerala.

Designed by the Directorate of Naval Design of the Indian Navy, INS Vikrant is the first warship being constructed by the CSL. Many private and public firms are involved in the construction of aircraft carriers.

Crucial stage

The CSL’s 2018-19 annual report, released in the first quarter of this year, says that the IAC project has progressed well and it is in a very critical phase of the project with equipment being energised and commissioned and the setting to work (STW) of various systems underway.

“During the latter part of this year (2019) and early next year, we are targeting to achieve significant milestones on the project. Major efforts have been put in and I am happy to report that discussions are at advanced stages to conclude the contract for the final phase of the IAC project,” Madhu S. Nair, the chairman and managing director of the CSL, says.

Also read: In a First, Defence Minister Flies in Indigenously Built Light Combat Tejas Fighter

Once the IAC becomes operational, probably by 2021, India will join an elite group of countries including the US, Russia, China, England and France which have built their own fight carriers.

The CSL report reveals that the project is undergoing a critical stage and hence, the theft is a matter of serious concern.

Four computers that were installed in INS Vikrant were dismantled and four hard disks, RAMs and processors were reportedly stolen.

Till now, the date and time of the theft are unknown. However, according to reports, the theft was noticed on September 13, when the vessel’s integrated platform management system (IPMS) was operated. The IPMS is a computerised system used to monitor a vessel’s course.

“It was faulty. And the processor, RAM and a hard disk installed in the computer system were found to be stolen. Six RAMs of three computers were also missing. So were three processors of as many computers and three hard disks. The stolen devises are worth [Rs] 2.10 lakh,” the report adds.

Following the discovery, the CSL lodged a complaint at the South Kochi police station and the Kerala police formed a Special Investigation Team (SIT) to probe the case.


The carrier being undocked. Photo: Twitter/Spokesperson MoD

‘Could sink the vessel’

“We have got 12 finger and palm prints from the crime scene. The thief or thieves have used screwdrivers to unlock the computer’s central processing unit. While we are scanning 1,200 finger and palm prints to find the suspects, we have been told by the National Investigation Agency (NIA) to scan some 2,000 more finger and palm prints,” an official said, requesting anonymity.

According to the official, the stolen hard disks reportedly have sensitive data about the IPMS.

“It [the IPMS] is a computerised system used onboard ships to monitor the working and course of the vessel and to warn against safety risks. If the culprits can crack the system, then they can even sink the vessel,” the official added.


According to the CSL annual report, trials of the IPMS have commenced.

A week after the Kerala police investigation, the NIA had taken over the case.

Waging and abetting war

Meanwhile, reports said that considering the gravity of the case, the NIA had re-registered the case by including sections of waging or attempting to wage war or abetting waging of war against the nation.

The report added that the NIA has included IPC Sections 121 (waging or attempting to wage war, or abetting waging of war against the nation), 121A (conspiracy to commit offences under IPC section 121), besides Sections 457 (trespassing to commit offence), 461 (dishonestly breaking open receptacle containing property) and 380 (theft) that was earlier charged by the Kerala police.

The agency has also included cyber terrorism charges under Section 66F of the Information Technology Act in the case. The theft has happened even when special security attention was accorded to the IAC.

According to the CSL report, all security systems and measures introduced and installed in the company were of international standards. “Periodic joint survey was conducted by the CSL and CISF. Twenty-four hours waterfront patrolling in a dedicated speed boat with armed personnel and wireless surveillance (CCTV) system covering all critical locations and installations are in place,” the CSL report adds.

Till March 31, the CSL has got Rs 175,676.28 lakhs from the operations of the IAC project.


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