Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Dileep
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Dileep » 26 Dec 2013 11:24

Kersi D wrote:
dinesha wrote:Yesterday's test photo by DRDO..
I wonder why no Army Camo if it was picket rendomly from the production batch..
Image


The missile is short and stubby / chubby / fat. Looks like a SLBM

K


The image is with wrong aspect ratio. It is vertically compressed.

krishnan
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 26 Dec 2013 11:26

yes, they didnt resize it properly

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 26 Dec 2013 12:41

ramana wrote:
The electronic systems are hardened for higher vibration, thermal and acoustic effects, a DRDO scientist said.


And why suddenly its 100m accuracy (Hindu) when single digit was expected in the Indian Express article?

OTH, 100m accuracy gives an idea of the payload size.


The official press release says that "the missile hit the target area with pin point accuracy."
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=102101

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby mody » 26 Dec 2013 14:46

Amongst all the Agni series missiles, the A3 still does not make sense.
Why persist with production of A3, when A4 and A5 are just around the corner.

The missiles already produced, can stay as part of the inventory. Given the size and weight of A3, A4 should be much cheaper. In fact for all practical purposes, even the A4 probably will not enter service. Cannisterized A5 would be the one to offer the right kind of deterrent.

The only way A3 makes sense is if India's fission boosted fusion warhead design is sub-optimal and heavy. If the warhead weight for the thermo nuclear weapon is in 1ton+ range, then A3 is necessary to maintain the deterrent, till A5 enters service. Other then that, continuing with A3 production simply beats me.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RKumar » 26 Dec 2013 16:26

5 top reason I could come in 5 mins on top of my head...

1. It is for deterrence
2. It evolve the practices, handling, maturing parts.
3. Finding out any defects which might surface after 10 yrs+ of induction.
4. Always keep minimum masala stock of newer, stable, reliable of trusted taste
5. Have to induct what you have as it is always a moving target. New development are always on the cards (A6 over A5, Single over MRV, MRV over MIRV, SLBM ....)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nachiket » 26 Dec 2013 18:37

mody wrote:Amongst all the Agni series missiles, the A3 still does not make sense.
Why persist with production of A3, when A4 and A5 are just around the corner.

How exactly does the thinner and lighter (and only slightly longer) A4 manage to outrange the A3? Just a difference in warhead weight can't possibly explain it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 26 Dec 2013 18:57

mody wrote:Amongst all the Agni series missiles, the A3 still does not make sense.
Why persist with production of A3, when A4 and A5 are just around the corner.


There is your answer, a mijjile under production is better than the one's around the corner.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Dec 2013 19:17

nachiket wrote:
mody wrote:Amongst all the Agni series missiles, the A3 still does not make sense.
Why persist with production of A3, when A4 and A5 are just around the corner.

How exactly does the thinner and lighter (and only slightly longer) A4 manage to outrange the A3? Just a difference in warhead weight can't possibly explain it.


Use of composite stage II, lesser warhead weight and undereporting of A-2 and A-3 range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 26 Dec 2013 20:01

Aditya_V wrote:
nachiket wrote:How exactly does the thinner and lighter (and only slightly longer) A4 manage to outrange the A3? Just a difference in warhead weight can't possibly explain it.


Use of composite stage II, lesser warhead weight and undereporting of A-2 and A-3 range.

Higher energy propellants too along with flex nozzles (in both stages) that eliminated the bukier control systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nachiket » 26 Dec 2013 20:04

SSridhar wrote:Higher energy propellants too along with flex nozzles (in both stages) that eliminated the bukier control systems.

A3 has the flex nozzles too. And can't they use the same new propellants in the A3? It should give it a much higher range somewhere in the 4500-5000km area. That also brings into question why the A5 range is only 5000km despite it also having the composite stage (and presumably the new propellants) along with its huge size. All these reported ranges simply can't be right at the same time.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 26 Dec 2013 20:27

nachiket, if we look at the first flights of A3, its weight was reported as 48 tonnes. It was inducted into the SFC in c. 2011. However, it was in October, 2013 that Ms. Tessy Thomas of DRDO said that the missile weight has been brought down to 22 tonnes. Probably, they went in for FRP casing as in A4 and higher-energy propellants. As for flex nozzles, only A3's second stage had them whereas A4 has them in both stages.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby partha » 27 Dec 2013 04:50

I was reading an old Agni 2 launch mission report where the time to launch was 15 mins. Latest Agni 3 test reports mention that the launch time was 3 mins. That's an awesome improvement. I am assuming this improvement applies to missiles across the board or could this be missile specific?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Anand K » 27 Dec 2013 07:59

N00b question...... what's the security detail for our road-mobile or rail-mobile ballistic missile like? Curiously very little literature about it (even US/USSR) AFAIK. I mean, if we draw a parallel to the PLA 2nd Artillery BM Launch Company or a Platoon, what is the protection detail like?
The Chinese have large uninhabited but geographically suitable stretches in Tibet and Xinjiang etc where they can base such elements without much interference. In our case, it's a bit different right.... especially in the North East and East?

Couple of questions that rose up when I heard about this 3 minute time-to-launch parameter.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Dec 2013 08:10

it has not been publicized.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Anand K » 27 Dec 2013 08:18

I pooched that question because I ran into this sometime back - writeup on PLA 2nd Artillery revamps. There's 10 chapters BTW.

One can come to some conclusions, despite the fact that this article is a bit dated. I was thinking maybe we have some thoughts on the actual fielding. I mean, heaven forbid if something like that road-mobile ICBM scene(s) from "Spies Like Us" .... or from Kamal Haasan's own "Vikram" happens. Anyway, Satyaraj is sheer awesomeness! :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Dec 2013 10:35

I will post a film reco in nukkad today . pls stay tuned to my bat-channel.

few years ago a prolific youtube poster named <name witheld> did post some hitherto unseen footage of brahmos TELARs climbing over some ghat roads and the Agni missile train in what looked like NE india. it was removed after a few days, probably was sourced from some internal drdo seminar materials.

for train TELARs, it is best kept low profile and no different than regular goods trains. this will make it hard for satellites to track or on-ground humint to detect.
for road mobile TELARs currently I think at best we can site them inside cantonments and use pre surveyed launch pads inside cantonments itself. only after cansister Agni5 comes will they be rugged enough to move around outside..and will need to stick to NDHP 4-laned highways with luck and local police helping if they have to go through towns without a bypass for the NH. :(

for us we had best depend on cansister launch from trains and SLBMs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prasad » 27 Dec 2013 11:10

We have so many unused rail lines going off into little towns all over the map.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 27 Dec 2013 13:40

SSridhar wrote:nachiket, if we look at the first flights of A3, its weight was reported as 48 tonnes. It was inducted into the SFC in c. 2011. However, it was in October, 2013 that Ms. Tessy Thomas of DRDO said that the missile weight has been brought down to 22 tonnes. Probably, they went in for FRP casing as in A4 and higher-energy propellants. As for flex nozzles, only A3's second stage had them whereas A4 has them in both stages.

“It saw several technological enhancements and we had to redesign the entire system, use maraging steel and composite motor rocket,” she said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vishvak » 27 Dec 2013 14:46

Must admire desi management style. Superb. Japanese have also developed own management style.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Dec 2013 22:35

dinesha wrote:
ramana wrote:{quote}
The electronic systems are hardened for higher vibration, thermal and acoustic effects, a DRDO scientist said.
{/quote}

And why suddenly its 100m accuracy (Hindu) when single digit was expected in the Indian Express article?

OTH, 100m accuracy gives an idea of the payload size.


The official press release says that "the missile hit the target area with pin point accuracy."
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=102101



So was this the 50 tonne or the 22 tonne version that was tested?

What I don't get is missile accelerations/random vibe etc for the 50 tonne will be very different than 22 tonne model. So how was the development completed for the newer version? Unless most of the systems andd packages are qualified for the 22 tonne environments already.


Thanks. :(

Wish we get to see the post splash down functioning of fuze.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 29 Dec 2013 05:47

Err, exactly how does this "strike its target with pinpoint / single digit accuracy" work out in real life in a ballistic missile test?

The missile warhead section does NOT hit the water intact. there is NO target on the ground / water that it hits.
The warhead section explodes 500-1500m in the air (or whatever height SFC wants it to explode).

Wherefrom this pinpoint accuracy hain ji?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 29 Dec 2013 05:52

I wonder if that pic of the A3 in all white (and vertically distorted to make it short and stubby) was the SFC test.
This appears to be a DRDO test missile in all white with the orange band across it. Maybe the pic is from an earlier DRDO A3 test. (?DDM)
SFC missiles have the sarkari Railways brown color on the missiles and the due SFC insignias on them.

So there is no telling what was tested here.
The numerous "Prithvi" launches were actually Sagarika launches.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 29 Dec 2013 09:00

Gagan wrote:Err, exactly how does this "strike its target with pinpoint / single digit accuracy" work out in real life in a ballistic missile test?

The missile warhead section does NOT hit the water intact. there is NO target on the ground / water that it hits.
The warhead section explodes 500-1500m in the air (or whatever height SFC wants it to explode).

Wherefrom this pinpoint accuracy hain ji?


If the missile was allowed to hit the ground then w.r.t. the target how far it falls will give you the accuracy. They have camera's stationed to film the endgame and maybe that's how they are calculating the miss distance.

Tube light moment :- A3 test was delayed because the tracking ship wasn't at the desired position and that ship has radars, optronics, cameras to track the trajectory of the missile. The ship is there to track the path followed by the missile and that's how they know what is the CEP. Duh !!!!
Last edited by Sagar G on 29 Dec 2013 09:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby partha » 29 Dec 2013 09:24

Agni 3 missile during RD parade. Is the missile in SFC colors?

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 29 Dec 2013 14:10

ramana wrote: Calling things by right name is important. Hardening refers to electromagnetic hardening against EMP from nuke blast not shock and vibration. WIsh right definitions are used.
It was almost certainly using the right terminology.
ramana wrote:Good to know its from SFC stocks and not one more developmental flight.
we may never know.

ramana wrote:And why suddenly its 100m accuracy (Hindu) when single digit was expected in the Indian Express article?
Do we realized what was happening?
Under our watchful eyes History is made without much fanfare by proclaiming for the first time(or second time, if we consider K4/15 missile announcement)the target of close to zero CEP before testing the actual missile.
Last edited by Kanson on 29 Dec 2013 14:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 14:32

The initial orientation and (relatively) accurate INS can provide a good CEP. Sat fixes can improve upon it. Star sensors can supplement/complement the above.

But without active sensors and access to own Sat fixes/star sensors, zero CEP etc are more debating points than anything else.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 29 Dec 2013 14:57

1. http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 937718.ece
Year:2013
We want to achieve close to zero circular error probability (CEP)


2. http://www.defencenow.com/news/104/indi ... siles.html
Year:2011
According to officials, the Prithvi-II missile achieved single digit accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP).


3. http://twocircles.net/2008may23/indian_ ... ssile.html
Year: 2008
"Taken from a routine production lot, the missile was launched with an improved aided inertial navigation system and achieved single digit accuracy reaching close to zero CEP," a defence ministry statement issued in New Delhi said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 29 Dec 2013 17:03

We need to stop discounting our own achievements....

If we can accurately track the trajectory of our PSLVs and GSLVs we can surely track our own missiles..
On the same corollary we will have discount our near operational BMD programme..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 29 Dec 2013 17:07

ramana wrote:So was this the 50 tonne or the 22 tonne version that was tested?

What I don't get is missile accelerations/random vibe etc for the 50 tonne will be very different than 22 tonne model. So how was the development completed for the newer version? Unless most of the systems andd packages are qualified for the 22 tonne environments already.


Thanks. :(

Wish we get to see the post splash down functioning of fuze.

The officail press release is Cryptically silent on the weight of the A-III tested on 23rd..

I am also somehow convinces that the faulty aspect ratio of the released A-III test picture was by design..as change in aspect ratio involves few more operations (in PS) then just changing image size..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 18:06

Kanson wrote:1. http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 937718.ece
Year:2013
We want to achieve close to zero circular error probability (CEP)


2. http://www.defencenow.com/news/104/indi ... siles.html
Year:2011
According to officials, the Prithvi-II missile achieved single digit accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP).


3. http://twocircles.net/2008may23/indian_ ... ssile.html
Year: 2008
"Taken from a routine production lot, the missile was launched with an improved aided inertial navigation system and achieved single digit accuracy reaching close to zero CEP," a defence ministry statement issued in New Delhi said.


Yes, but the improved INS takes feed from sat-fixes and until & unless we have our own sat system & or complements to the sat-fix, a pure RLG-INS is not going to achieve zero CEP at 5k km. The CEP it will achieve will be ok for a strategic role, but not a conventional zero CEP sort of strike.

Unless of course they have integrated more advanced sensors apart from the RLG-INS/sat sensor package, which they cannot discuss and this is quite plausible
Last edited by Karan M on 29 Dec 2013 18:26, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 18:18

dinesha wrote:We need to stop discounting our own achievements....

If we can accurately track the trajectory of our PSLVs and GSLVs we can surely track our own missiles..
On the same corollary we will have discount our near operational BMD programme..


You are mixing up two different sets of systems. Trajectory tracking is done with GBRs etc.

Also, BMD systems slant ranges are much shorter (~200-300 km) and with a combination of RLG-INS, mid-course command guidance (from ground based radars) and active homing seekers can achieve very small CEPs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 29 Dec 2013 23:10

^^^^^ I am just talking about accurately tracking at the burst height..
My reference to BMD was also about independent tracking at the engagement point..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 29 Dec 2013 23:42

The A3 tested might be different from the one in the pic. It might not have a vented interstage, have a all composite body and engines, might look totally different.
Final production lot, SFC maal might be different from the one's we see...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 29 Dec 2013 23:45

A3 mght be single warhead lizard specific, or MIRVED lizard specific.
A4 is single warhead lizard specific.
A5 might be single warhead ICBM or MIRVED lizard specific. The single warhead A5 might cover everythng except the americas

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Klaus » 30 Dec 2013 06:43

@ partha, the A3 Republic day parade pic is the Army's scheme of Arid Desert, not SFC.

Btw, the Hindu article says that A3 weight reduced by 22 tonnes, i.e new weight of 28 tonnes from the original 50 tonnes.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 30 Dec 2013 06:52

dinesha wrote:^^^^^ I am just talking about accurately tracking at the burst height..
My reference to BMD was also about independent tracking at the engagement point..


Ah ok, got it. What I was trying to determine is how they are doing what they are doing and there seem to be some valid solutions there.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 30 Dec 2013 07:01

I find a halving of weight for the same size missile hard to believe.
a2 is around 22t. A3 is much fatter.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby partha » 30 Dec 2013 11:22

Klaus wrote:@ partha, the A3 Republic day parade pic is the Army's scheme of Arid Desert, not SFC.

Btw, the Hindu article says that A3 weight reduced by 22 tonnes, i.e new weight of 28 tonnes from the original 50 tonnes.

Thanks. I did have my doubts. So that means there are no pics of missiles in SFC colors in public domain yet?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 30 Dec 2013 18:19

Awaiting news of the launch of Agni 4 and Nirbhay. They were supposed to be launched by year-end.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 30 Dec 2013 20:25

Singha wrote:A3 is much fatter.

But, shorter (17m vs 21m).


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