Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Sep 2014 20:17

Rien wrote:Any media reports of how people feel about being rescued by the Dhruv?

I think you're looking for that article which states they're disgusted to be rescued by a Dhruv and would rather wait for a Mi-17. Or a Chinook, if that tickles your fancy.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Sep 2014 09:08

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Sep 2014 09:22

Was listening to the radio news about the SAR operations in J&K. The report mentioned 84 aircraft's that are currently engaged in SAR activities.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Sep 2014 10:10

Heard on NDTV last night (if i remmeber correctly) that the IAF is doing 90 sorties a day and has rescued 100,000 people. But they are not scaling back ops as people have started to pelt the helicopters.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 12 Sep 2014 12:16

The air commodore on ndtv said they have scaled back the winching ops but are dropping essentials where there is stone pelting....some general in the know said such incidents are common bcoz of trauma....he said he has seen worse during Kosi river floods....Have sponken to some kannadigas who have returned form the Kashmir....they said ppl there helped them a lot and provided food and place to sleep in mosque and arranged vehicles for them till leh.

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 12 Sep 2014 12:34

Rien wrote:Any media reports of how people feel about being rescued by the Dhruv?

I am certain that people on top of buildings ... who have been starving and without fresh water for nearly a week ... would have thought to themselves, "Oh, no, thats a Dhruv. Not only is it an Indian helicopter, it has jump seats and not lie flat beds. Lets just wait here and die instead."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2014 13:28

in this pic what is the countermeasures box below the tail boom?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jAv2Sv-ltd0/V ... 856517.jpg

I can see the box of flares on top of the door and crude hajji armour plates on some of the glass windows.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 12 Sep 2014 14:25

Singha wrote:in this pic what is the countermeasures box below the tail boom?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jAv2Sv-ltd0/V ... 856517.jpg

I can see the box of flares on top of the door and crude hajji armour plates on some of the glass windows.

That is not the counter measure box, but the doppler system. Mi-17's have a got doppler nav system but now only used as a back up to GPS or similar systems.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2014 15:06

yikes i had no idea such a thing existed. seems every helicopter has one.

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 12 Sep 2014 15:09

DSS-32-90 Doppler navigation system is common across various Mil copters including Mi-17, Hinds.

BTW, box flares are above the last window and IAF roundel. Not above doors. And that is the quality of the OEM armor, its not desi juggaad

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Sep 2014 16:36

IIRC those are heavy ballistic steel covers & DMRL developed some ceramic armor as replacements which are now being supplied to IAF (weight reduction).

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 12 Sep 2014 19:46

Some of the dolphin nose mil-17s have old style clamshell doors. What gives?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CoRTpLhGo80/V ... 2B(10).jpg

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 12 Sep 2014 20:26

The Mi-8's and the original Mi-17's all had clamshell doors. The Mi-17-IV's came with some having ramps while some had clamshell doors. Each type has some advantage / disadvantage. During air maintenance and flood relief / food dropping, the machines generally dispense with the ramp or clamshell which makes it easier for dropping load both in air and while on ground. But removal of these limits max forward speed.

The one in the pic looks like a Mi 17 V5. I guess, the same story with clamshells as the Mi-17-IV's.

@Singhaji, I have used the Doppler Nav and quite liked it. Though GPS made it so easy that the Doppler system was rarely used. In hills and near border one rarely refers to even GPS (signal loss / faulty locations).

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 15 Sep 2014 23:30

What is the status of the three AW-101 delivered to IAF so far? Are they being re-purposed and put to some use or are they just sitting in the hangar? Do they need to be flown occasionally to keep them operational?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 16 Sep 2014 09:09

^^^AFAIK, they are just sitting. The pilots trained were rerouted to other jobs. Don't know about engineers and maintenance crew.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Sep 2014 05:32

How exactly does a "file", in 2014, go missing?

Crucial file on procurement of jet trainers goes missing from defence ministry

Of course, it will be found in Bhindi Bazar.

member_28526 · Post by **member_28526** » 17 Sep 2014 05:57

The last recipient of the file must be held responsible. There are IN and OUT registers to track file movements.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 17 Sep 2014 10:00

Where are the back up copies of the file? In this day and age are there no electronic copies? The MOD makes policies and polices them too, something has to change , Our classified stuff is open to most arms dealers and this has been going on for a while. Somebody needs a vacation at Tihar for this Mr.NiMo

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Sep 2014 13:46

Divya Drishti HMD

http://www.samtelavionics.com/?page=hmd

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 17 Sep 2014 16:51

kaizanin wrote:The last recipient of the file must be held responsible. There are IN and OUT registers to track file movements.

HAHA...back in my college days, a crucial book for the test would go missing from the library just in time before the tests. My friends used to sell xerox copies of this book just outside the college. The book would reappear promptly after the test. I am sure that book had in and out registry entries done by the librarian

Point is...the probability we will ever know where the file is or the persons really responsible is 400% only.

-M

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Sep 2014 17:52

Modi or no Modi, MOD is MOD.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Sep 2014 09:42

Some info on AviaIndra ex involving IAF/RuAF and S-300/400/BUK/Pantsir ( using translator )
http://vpk-news.ru/articles/21838

Hunting for "wild boar"

Showed that the first joint exercise Air Force and Air India and Russia

Under the leadership of Commander from August 25 to September 5 in our country for the first time in the history of Russian-Indian relations, a joint Air Force and air defense doctrine "Aviaindra 2014." Observers attended by the Serbian delegation, Jordan, Brazil and Egypt. Showed that joint combat shooting?

Start combat work given in several places. In Lipetsk aviation center Indian pilots studied regions of upcoming launches and polished techniques piloting modern simulators, Su-30cm, Mi-35, Mi-8MTV5. Crews worked Su-30cm items in-flight refueling tanker aircraft from IL-78 (aerodrome Diaghilev, Ryazan) and combat use against ground targets on the range Pogonovo (Voronezh region). A defense experts familiar with the anti-aircraft missile systems in the training center of anti-aircraft missile troops in Gatchina. But the main fighting took place on the Ashuluk range (Astrakhan region).

Feeling of fellowship

Here, the joint Russian-Indian settlements and crews had suspended air strikes reflect the real battle starts missiles S-400, S-300PMU2, SAM "Buk-M1" ZRPK "Pantsir", as well as participate in the application bombing strikes against the enemy.

Manual exercises created an extremely difficult situation, to pilots and air defense crew had the opportunity to unleash the full potential of military equipment, to which the Indians, apparently, very carefully eyeing. Air defense system they are ours, though very old, purchased back in Soviet times. But the Su-30MKI, the development of which was the Su-30cm, they have mastered a few years ago. Therefore, the doctrine was initially quite substantive in nature.

Watch fighting crews and settlement happened with KP "Ash", which receives all the information from the means of objective control. Hence it is quite convenient to monitor the flight paths as the target air defense and anti-aircraft missiles.

The first episode is being followed reflection air strikes on Defensive objects. For this was created antiaircraft group consisting of:

anti-aircraft missile regiment of S-400;
anti-aircraft missile regiment of S-300PMU2;
Regiment SAM "Buk-M1";
Division "Armour".

In this Division "Armour" acted in the regiment of S-400, and the regiment "Buk-M1" was subordinate to the division commander.

Outfit enemy forces included echelon suppression forces and air defense systems, to simulate a target E-95 and missile target 95YA6.

Soon the situation became more complicated. Enemy struck tactical ballistic missiles (including unloved rocket troops were the target "Hog") and echelon strike aircraft (played up missile target "arquebus-B"). So that the joint calculations had to cover from the blows as tactical ballistic missiles and aircraft.

With Indian colleagues was generated solution to build a system of air defense in such a way that a regiment of S-400 to assign the task of destroying tactical ballistic missiles. With the on-300PMU2 and "Buk-M1" - the destruction of aeroballistic and aerodynamic purposes. Division ZRPK "Armour" served as the cover of the regiments of S-300 and S-400 from the blows of precision weapons on the march.

First appeared in the air target E-95, to simulate the cruise missile strikes. Combat crew ZRPK "Armour" found her and killed at the entrance to the affected area, what guidance the Indian delegation was able to see firsthand the KP "Ash". In the sky were fiery smoky cloud trajectory and undermining. On the report of the KP target is destroyed at a distance of 10 kilometers and a height of one kilometer. But with the launch of another missile, as it turned out, something went wrong. What - this we will see later on in professional analysis of firings.

The division commander, according to intelligence reports found that in a raid enemy will apply:

95YA6-2M target missile simulating precision weapons - 2;
target missile "Hog", simulating the impact of tactical ballistic missiles - 4;
target missile "arquebus-B", imitating kick aeroballistic and aerodynamic tools, - 7.

Target "Hog" was launched from a distance of 90 kilometers, "arquebus-B" - 75 kilometers 95YA6-2M - 20 kilometers. All of them have very low reflective surface and operated at intervals of about 20 seconds.

Following the report of the regimental commanders of the ready to reflect the impact the division commander mobilized ballistic missile S-400, Aeroballistic - S-300PMU2 and "Buk-M1." Anti-aircraft missile system S-400 "Triumph" has taken over, perhaps, the main burden of maintenance and destruction of the three "Kabanov." But soon to help her leadership had to connect another and S-300PMU2 as the decor has deteriorated after the start of two "musket-B." In addition, the fourth "Hog" attacked the protected object simultaneously with the target "arquebus-B."

"Chetyrehsotke" has done with the massive bloom, as, indeed, and other systems. No wonder the Indians asked to demonstrate her work (along with others), although Russia still does not deliver abroad these complexes. And would like to purchase? The question I ask at the end of teaching.

During the break, was able to communicate with the first deputy executive director of the Tula Instrument Design Bureau Yuri Savenkov. He said that in the new ZRPK "Armour-C1", enter the army, greatly improved radar and thermal imager, which is now tucked away in a tower of the transport unit. As a result ZRPK became more convenient for airlift. It got a lot of other innovations that provide a better, more accurate shooting, move faster over rough terrain on KAMAZ chassis (although some imported samples are carried out at the request of customers on chassis MAN). In the test phase - new, improved high-speed rocket.

Half a century in the service of

After the shooting was able to talk with who headed the Indian delegation Vice Marshal Air India Raghunath Arnambiarom. He commands the defense northern India (Jammu and Kashmir, Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana, and is also the capital - New Delhi). Under his command, about 50 percent of the forces and air defense of the country.

Air Vice-Marshal did not immediately respond to the question, what system they would like to purchase, but said that they had already in service 40-50 years are complexes of the Soviet and Russian production - S-75 "Dvina", C-125, as well as the SAM "Pechora", "Wasp", "Needle". His father, an officer in defense, many times very good of them spoke as the most reliable, which, of course, remember.

"Your weapons have successfully withstood the test of time we have, we are very pleased - said Arnambiar. - So now we want to work more closely with Russia on the basis of mutual benefit. "

Before the Indian side, apparently, has a choice to purchase a service in the United States or Russia. As they say our experts, which is why potential buyers want to make their own opinion on the work of our modern air defense missile systems. And not the words of diplomats, and through personal contacts with Russian officers in the armed forces who daily operate these systems in demanding environments.

In general, the Indians were satisfied with what they saw and heard, got a large amount of information. And most importantly - met the welcoming attitude and support from the Russian side. Air Vice-Marshal Arnambiar to combat stance remembered and other examples of successful cooperation between Russia and India. Noted, the level of orders on supersonic cruise missile "Brahmos" joint development now exceeds $ 15 billion, which is a very good result. Since Russia is working closely over the medium-range transport aircraft MTA (Multirole Transport Aircraft). "Hindustan Aeronautics Limited" (HAL) and United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) announced intentions military departments of the two countries to order 205 multipurpose military transport aircraft (PTS) MTA capacity of 20 tons. They are designed for the Air Force of India and Russia, but will be available for export. Production will joint Russian-Indian venture MTAL (Multirole Transport Aircraft Ltd). As expected, the order of the Russian Air Force could reach 100 planes. The need for them Indian military aviation is estimated at 45 units. 60 cars will be exported. A basic agreement on the production of AIT partners signed in September 2010. By its terms, the parties undertake to invest in the project at $ 300 million. The first flight of MTA should make in 2017, mass production will begin in 2019 m.

Fifth-generation fighter PAK FA developed jointly.

Over the past six decades, we have put in India arms and military equipment worth more than $ 57 billion. PTS volume between the two countries only in terms of ROE in 2013 exceeded $ 3.6 billion.

"Now we are looking, compare, listen, read, evaluate, analyze, - said vice-marshal to a question about plans and intentions. - And only then make a decision about these or other purchases. But waiting for a good deal. " Ultimately, hinted India eyeing to all of our AME - AAMS, radar, aircraft equipment. Were not averse to purchase and S-300PMU2 and S-400 "Triumph". Exploring the possibilities of our radar 39N6, 96L6-1.

More Lipetsk asked about his impressions of the Indian pilots fighter Su-30cm, which has super-maneuverability, equipped with a radar with a phased antenna array is able to use the current and future precision weapons class "air-to-air" and "air-surface". India successfully exploited predecessor Su-30cm - a multi-purpose fighter Su-30MKI. The reaction of the Indians, which was immediately after the flight, it is difficult to hide. However, a major Indian Air Force Sachin Arora and did not do. In Lipetsk aviation center he practiced elements of piloting in the cockpit seat trainer with our Major Alan Datievym. Although behind the Indian pilot, as it turned out, 14 years of service, 1700 hours in the sky, admitted: "Su-30cm - the best aircraft in the world, with the American F-16 does not go to any comparison."

New page

Fighting tactical ballistic targets was assigned S-400, with aerodynamic - S-300PMU2 and SAM "Buk-M1." Fuel rockets proved limited, as the cost of even one of the munition is high enough. But enough for the designated number of effective fire.

One of the major goals has gone on a very difficult path. Skip it meant to erase all the work. Therefore, the division commander, decided to reinforce the work of S-400 fire S-300PMU2. Sounded team to destroy the target of two fire engines that worthwhile. After this task is to destroy the four aeroballistic missiles was delivered only S-300PMU2. With a rate of two missiles at each target they have been successfully amazed.

The next goal in the amount of three missiles simulated second-tier impact of aviation. The main role in the confrontation with them was assigned to the complex "Buk-M1." Target, as it turned out, went to the speed and altitude beyond the capabilities of the SAM. Thus, the maximum available for "Buk-M1" - 730 meters per second. A target flying at a speed of 800 meters per second. It was decided to step up efforts "Buk-M1" shooting S-300PMU2. As a result, these three targets were destroyed by concentrated fire of two anti-aircraft missile regiments.

On the positive side it should be noted that when analyzing the results of the Main Command Air Force leadership gave an objective assessment of the work of our AME did not hide, and some rough edges. Head of anti-aircraft missile troops Russian Air Force Major-General Sergei Babakov said in a joint air exercise between India and Russia "Aviaindra 2014 'task was to practice joint actions to combat employment of aviation and air defense systems. In particular, the latter solved the problem of covering the object of massive air strikes, which is applied with precision weapons, tactical ballistic missiles and aerodynamic. All air targets that are included in the affected area have been destroyed.

Indian settlements worked well and smoothly in the new anti-environment, in an unknown for them to theater. "It is concluded that they are trained professionals, according to their actual work, the subject of conversations and issues - said Sergey Babakov. - And for their participation in the construction of group-defense. "

General stressed the need to further develop the tactics of shooting ZRPK "Armour" in the movement.

"For two target missiles made three starts, but one was a failure - said Babakov. - The rocket went into the ground close to the position and the targets were destroyed by another PU. In this situation, we will carefully sort out the landfill caused by industry representatives. "

Very good result showed SAM "Buk-M1", from which you do not even expect. "We did not think that he will be able to successfully work at such distances and this class of targets, - explained the general. - Apparently, today added to the skill calculations luck. "

The overall conclusion is. Grouping, built with Indian experts and decision on the distribution of efforts yielded positive results, possible to completely cover the object. As a conclusion, Deputy Chief of Staff of the Air Force, Major-General Alexander Lyapkin, on the teaching of "Aviaindra 2014" were solved almost all the tasks. Worked out the problem destroy ground targets, fire support troops, the use of aviation issues in search and rescue support, and extinguishing fires. Each crew performed on the six flights that included night.

"We are interested to hear the opinion of the Indian colleagues, exchange of experience in operating equipment, tactical innovations - with satisfaction the final tally Alexander Lyapkin. - By all accounts, was on the teachings of a new page in the history of military cooperation between the Air Force of the Russian Federation and the Republic of India. "

In November, will the next step exercises "Aviaindra 2014", which (there is such a forecast) will be held regularly.

Oleg Falichev ,
Lipetsk - Ashuluk

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Sep 2014 05:34

http://www.samachar.com/IAF-AN32-crash- ... jegch.html

The aircraft, which was coming back from Jammu and Kashmir after dropping relief supplies to the flood-affected state, broke into three portions as it crash landed and caught fire.

koti · Post by **koti** » 21 Sep 2014 17:26

Updates on the Mirage upgrade. Despite their grounding...!!??

Link

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Sep 2014 18:21

The time taken to upgrade the Mirage fleet has been assumed to be too long here...However, reading the article linked above, I think there could be a plausible reason for the same.

First, it is a pretty deep upgrade and even with best of intentions, the HAL can manage 10 a/c per annum. The rate is however set at 6 per annum. Even at most optimal rate, it will take HAL ~5 years to do the upgrade to entire fleet. I think the rate has been set low to factor into account the present and projected a/c strength of IAF fighter a/c fleet. With the number already low, IAF cannot afford to keep Mirages out of action for a whole year. They're trying to manage the upgrade as well as operational requirement. JMT and all that...

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 21 Sep 2014 18:32

koti wrote:Updates on the Mirage upgrade. Despite their grounding...!!??
Link

From the link:

around a quarter of the fleet of 49 is grounded because a contract for spares has remained unsigned for years

If this is true, what is it with our damned babus? Are they merely sitting with their thumbs up their asses or purposely crippling our defense?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 21 Sep 2014 19:07

^^^^ and the famed IAF import lobby has no control over this import?

(Just ranting)

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Sep 2014 05:41

chetak wrote:A small ray of sunshine midst the general gloom doom wrought by scamtony

Desi Tyres on Sukhoi Fighters a Runway Hit

Just an update...

MRF now manufactures the Aeromuscle for IAF's Sukhois at 56% of the import cost. This despite MRF's R&D cost to develop the tyres. I suppose just the marketing value of an association with the IAF and national security makes it worthwhile.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Sep 2014 09:50

koti wrote:Updates on the Mirage upgrade. Despite their grounding...!!??
Link

Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 Upgrade Progresses Despite Groundings

September 19, 2014

Although a $2.2 billion upgrade of India’s Dassault Mirage 2000 fighters is progressing, around a quarter of the fleet of 49 is grounded because a contract for spares has remained unsigned for years, AIN has learned from sources involved in the program.

“Bureaucratic holdups have caused delays. As a result, parts are being cannibalized and there are some aircraft [inactive] since 2010. Life of some parts, especially avionics, is expiring,” said an engineer not willing to be identified. Repairs of the Mirages are carried out at the base repair depot in Gwalior in the central state of Madhya Pradesh. The depot also does material planning and storage of primarily third- and fourth-line spares. The Indian Air Force declined to comment.

Meanwhile, the upgrade to the 2000-5 standard is progressing. Two aircraft have completed flight trials and are awaiting certification. Delivery to HAL is expected within two months. The third aircraft is expected to fly soon. Another two will be retrofitted in Bangalore byHindustan Aeronautics (HAL). The remaining Mirages will be reassembled in India with tooling to be supplied by Thales. While a timeline of seven years has been given to upgrade all the aircraft, a defense consultant characterized as “ambitious” any projection for HAL to produce six a year. However, HAL chairman RK Tyagi told AIN, “We can produce up to 10 a year.” The HAL team has already gone to France for training. Test benches in Gwalior will require upgrading, for which bids have not as yet been released.

The new capabilities include longer-range detection and weapon firing against multiple targets and an extended operating envelope that will allow a border-protection mission. The multitrack RDY-3 radar equipment on the Indian Mirage is the same generation the French air force uses on the Mirage 2000D, with range increased to 50 nm from the existing RDM radar's 40 nm.

India is ordering 164 Litening 2 targeting pods from Israel's Rafael for the upgraded Mirages, as well as for Su-30 MKIs. The nation has also cleared a proposal to buy more than 400 MICA short- and medium-range air defense missiles. These will replace the Magic II short-range infrared missiles and Super 350 MRAAM on the Mirages.

Few things from that article:

Delay in contract for spares -> we have seen this recurring bureaucratic issue with the IN and IA as well. There should be a separate more expedient path for signing of spares for in-service products. Maybe the lifecycle support contract as well as local manufacture of parts under TOT will alleviate this issue on future purchases. It will increase the upfront contract price but will increase fleet serviceability in the long run.
"Test benches in Gwalior will require upgrading, for which bids have not as yet been released." -> This again highlights in-complete contract signings. Shouldn't this have been included as part of the Mirage-2000UPG deal?

Good news on the acquisition of 164 LITENING pods. Finally standardisation on one system is occurring across all aircraft types. [ India chooses Litening G4 for combat aircraft fleet ]

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 22 Sep 2014 10:46

Hmm, above article says Litening 2 and the SPMAI article says Litening G4 which is correct.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Sep 2014 11:06

Should be G4. II is too old. Cannot see it being part of any bake-offs. ????

Wiki has it as G4 too (did not check the ref).

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 22 Sep 2014 14:55

The pattern of acquisitions over past decade or so is slowly converting the IAF into a force where a great majority of combat aircraft will be twin engined. This has its own impact on operating costs including, spares, fuel etc. and make twin engined a/cs inherently more expensive to acquire and operate.

Some food for thought here?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 22 Sep 2014 16:28

^^^ LCA is 'the' single engine machine. Period. It will be the backbone and mainstay of the fleet. Once all LCA are in the balance should swing in Single Engine's favour.

Twin engines are expensive, but will have fewer peace time losses. Some of Mig 21 accidents are EFATO - 'Engine Failure After Take Off'. On a single engine, the action is eject. On a twin engine one 'may' try to bring back the aircraft. This is just one advantage of Twin Engines over Single engines. Personally, I like this advantage most.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 23 Sep 2014 09:13

Wasn't the Rafale thread famously bragging about 'high availability' of Mirages. This article is contradicting that altogether? And the blame game is well crafted - heard this exact same thing from british gents as well.

To think about it, almost bought the argument 100* 'anything french~80% availability' > 200 MKI * 40% availability !

Looks like anything imported will have less than 50% availability just because we buy end of life products and pay scandalous amounts for spares. Even FMS deals are going to be same as even pentagon complains about spare parts prices (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-0 ... a-445-gear)

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 23 Sep 2014 09:21

NRao wrote:How exactly does a "file", in 2014, go missing?

Crucial file on procurement of jet trainers goes missing from defence ministry

Of course, it will be found in Bhindi Bazar.

A simple thought - Can the Surya Kiran team fly the LCA instead of British Hawk. Of all the things - British who want to debate about kashmir. These snobs cannot stop snooting about their empire.

Showing off homemade stuff is best way to promote exports, LCA might be less expensive over the long term as well. And why the urgency in equipping Surya Kirans?

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 23 Sep 2014 11:39

LCA is 'the' single engine machine. Period. It will be the backbone and mainstay of the fleet.

How long is this backbone going to be? What numbers are we looking at, MKII included? 200?

By then, we will already have (all numbers approx.)
MKI: 272
LCA: 200+
Rafale: 126 (and possibly 70 options if exercised)
M2K: 50
Mig 29: 66
FGFA/PAK-FA: Not counting for now

With these numbers, LCA will roughly constitute less than 30% of the combat fleet - PAK-FA and AMCA have not even been accounted for in this calculation.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Sep 2014 14:14

Austin wrote:Some info on AviaIndra ex involving IAF/RuAF and S-300/400/BUK/Pantsir ( using translator )
http://vpk-news.ru/articles/21838

Hunting for "wild boar"

Showed that the first joint exercise Air Force and Air India and Russia
Under the leadership of Commander from August 25 to September 5 in our country for the first time in the history of Russian-Indian relations, a joint Air Force and air defense doctrine "Aviaindra 2014." Observers attended by the Serbian delegation, Jordan, Brazil and Egypt. Showed that joint combat shooting?

Start combat work given in several places. In Lipetsk aviation center Indian pilots studied regions of upcoming launches and polished techniques piloting modern simulators, Su-30cm, Mi-35, Mi-8MTV5. Crews worked Su-30cm items in-flight refueling tanker aircraft from IL-78 (aerodrome Diaghilev, Ryazan) and combat use against ground targets on the range Pogonovo (Voronezh region). A defense experts familiar with the anti-aircraft missile systems in the training center of anti-aircraft missile troops in Gatchina. But the main fighting took place on the Ashuluk range (Astrakhan region).

Feeling of fellowship

Here, the joint Russian-Indian settlements and crews had suspended air strikes reflect the real battle starts missiles S-400, S-300PMU2, SAM "Buk-M1" ZRPK "Pantsir", as well as participate in the application bombing strikes against the enemy.

Manual exercises created an extremely difficult situation, to pilots and air defense crew had the opportunity to unleash the full potential of military equipment, to which the Indians, apparently, very carefully eyeing. Air defense system they are ours, though very old, purchased back in Soviet times. But the Su-30MKI, the development of which was the Su-30cm, they have mastered a few years ago. Therefore, the doctrine was initially quite substantive in nature.

Watch fighting crews and settlement happened with KP "Ash", which receives all the information from the means of objective control. Hence it is quite convenient to monitor the flight paths as the target air defense and anti-aircraft missiles.

The first episode is being followed reflection air strikes on Defensive objects. For this was created antiaircraft group consisting of:

anti-aircraft missile regiment of S-400;
anti-aircraft missile regiment of S-300PMU2;
Regiment SAM "Buk-M1";
Division "Armour".

In this Division "Armour" acted in the regiment of S-400, and the regiment "Buk-M1" was subordinate to the division commander.

Outfit enemy forces included echelon suppression forces and air defense systems, to simulate a target E-95 and missile target 95YA6.

Soon the situation became more complicated. Enemy struck tactical ballistic missiles (including unloved rocket troops were the target "Hog") and echelon strike aircraft (played up missile target "arquebus-B"). So that the joint calculations had to cover from the blows as tactical ballistic missiles and aircraft.

With Indian colleagues was generated solution to build a system of air defense in such a way that a regiment of S-400 to assign the task of destroying tactical ballistic missiles. With the on-300PMU2 and "Buk-M1" - the destruction of aeroballistic and aerodynamic purposes. Division ZRPK "Armour" served as the cover of the regiments of S-300 and S-400 from the blows of precision weapons on the march.

First appeared in the air target E-95, to simulate the cruise missile strikes. Combat crew ZRPK "Armour" found her and killed at the entrance to the affected area, what guidance the Indian delegation was able to see firsthand the KP "Ash". In the sky were fiery smoky cloud trajectory and undermining. On the report of the KP target is destroyed at a distance of 10 kilometers and a height of one kilometer. But with the launch of another missile, as it turned out, something went wrong. What - this we will see later on in professional analysis of firings.

The division commander, according to intelligence reports found that in a raid enemy will apply:

95YA6-2M target missile simulating precision weapons - 2;
target missile "Hog", simulating the impact of tactical ballistic missiles - 4;
target missile "arquebus-B", imitating kick aeroballistic and aerodynamic tools, - 7.

Target "Hog" was launched from a distance of 90 kilometers, "arquebus-B" - 75 kilometers 95YA6-2M - 20 kilometers. All of them have very low reflective surface and operated at intervals of about 20 seconds.

Following the report of the regimental commanders of the ready to reflect the impact the division commander mobilized ballistic missile S-400, Aeroballistic - S-300PMU2 and "Buk-M1." Anti-aircraft missile system S-400 "Triumph" has taken over, perhaps, the main burden of maintenance and destruction of the three "Kabanov." But soon to help her leadership had to connect another and S-300PMU2 as the decor has deteriorated after the start of two "musket-B." In addition, the fourth "Hog" attacked the protected object simultaneously with the target "arquebus-B."

"Chetyrehsotke" has done with the massive bloom, as, indeed, and other systems. No wonder the Indians asked to demonstrate her work (along with others), although Russia still does not deliver abroad these complexes. And would like to purchase? The question I ask at the end of teaching.

During the break, was able to communicate with the first deputy executive director of the Tula Instrument Design Bureau Yuri Savenkov. He said that in the new ZRPK "Armour-C1", enter the army, greatly improved radar and thermal imager, which is now tucked away in a tower of the transport unit. As a result ZRPK became more convenient for airlift. It got a lot of other innovations that provide a better, more accurate shooting, move faster over rough terrain on KAMAZ chassis (although some imported samples are carried out at the request of customers on chassis MAN). In the test phase - new, improved high-speed rocket.

Half a century in the service of

After the shooting was able to talk with who headed the Indian delegation Vice Marshal Air India Raghunath Arnambiarom. He commands the defense northern India (Jammu and Kashmir, Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana, and is also the capital - New Delhi). Under his command, about 50 percent of the forces and air defense of the country.

Air Vice-Marshal did not immediately respond to the question, what system they would like to purchase, but said that they had already in service 40-50 years are complexes of the Soviet and Russian production - S-75 "Dvina", C-125, as well as the SAM "Pechora", "Wasp", "Needle". His father, an officer in defense, many times very good of them spoke as the most reliable, which, of course, remember.

"Your weapons have successfully withstood the test of time we have, we are very pleased - said Arnambiar. - So now we want to work more closely with Russia on the basis of mutual benefit. "

Before the Indian side, apparently, has a choice to purchase a service in the United States or Russia. As they say our experts, which is why potential buyers want to make their own opinion on the work of our modern air defense missile systems. And not the words of diplomats, and through personal contacts with Russian officers in the armed forces who daily operate these systems in demanding environments.

In general, the Indians were satisfied with what they saw and heard, got a large amount of information. And most importantly - met the welcoming attitude and support from the Russian side. Air Vice-Marshal Arnambiar to combat stance remembered and other examples of successful cooperation between Russia and India. Noted, the level of orders on supersonic cruise missile "Brahmos" joint development now exceeds $ 15 billion, which is a very good result. Since Russia is working closely over the medium-range transport aircraft MTA (Multirole Transport Aircraft). "Hindustan Aeronautics Limited" (HAL) and United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) announced intentions military departments of the two countries to order 205 multipurpose military transport aircraft (PTS) MTA capacity of 20 tons. They are designed for the Air Force of India and Russia, but will be available for export. Production will joint Russian-Indian venture MTAL (Multirole Transport Aircraft Ltd). As expected, the order of the Russian Air Force could reach 100 planes. The need for them Indian military aviation is estimated at 45 units. 60 cars will be exported. A basic agreement on the production of AIT partners signed in September 2010. By its terms, the parties undertake to invest in the project at $ 300 million. The first flight of MTA should make in 2017, mass production will begin in 2019 m.

Fifth-generation fighter PAK FA developed jointly.

Over the past six decades, we have put in India arms and military equipment worth more than $ 57 billion. PTS volume between the two countries only in terms of ROE in 2013 exceeded $ 3.6 billion.

"Now we are looking, compare, listen, read, evaluate, analyze, - said vice-marshal to a question about plans and intentions. - And only then make a decision about these or other purchases. But waiting for a good deal. " Ultimately, hinted India eyeing to all of our AME - AAMS, radar, aircraft equipment. Were not averse to purchase and S-300PMU2 and S-400 "Triumph". Exploring the possibilities of our radar 39N6, 96L6-1.

More Lipetsk asked about his impressions of the Indian pilots fighter Su-30cm, which has super-maneuverability, equipped with a radar with a phased antenna array is able to use the current and future precision weapons class "air-to-air" and "air-surface". India successfully exploited predecessor Su-30cm - a multi-purpose fighter Su-30MKI. The reaction of the Indians, which was immediately after the flight, it is difficult to hide. However, a major Indian Air Force Sachin Arora and did not do. In Lipetsk aviation center he practiced elements of piloting in the cockpit seat trainer with our Major Alan Datievym. Although behind the Indian pilot, as it turned out, 14 years of service, 1700 hours in the sky, admitted: "Su-30cm - the best aircraft in the world, with the American F-16 does not go to any comparison."

New page

Fighting tactical ballistic targets was assigned S-400, with aerodynamic - S-300PMU2 and SAM "Buk-M1." Fuel rockets proved limited, as the cost of even one of the munition is high enough. But enough for the designated number of effective fire.

One of the major goals has gone on a very difficult path. Skip it meant to erase all the work. Therefore, the division commander, decided to reinforce the work of S-400 fire S-300PMU2. Sounded team to destroy the target of two fire engines that worthwhile. After this task is to destroy the four aeroballistic missiles was delivered only S-300PMU2. With a rate of two missiles at each target they have been successfully amazed.

The next goal in the amount of three missiles simulated second-tier impact of aviation. The main role in the confrontation with them was assigned to the complex "Buk-M1." Target, as it turned out, went to the speed and altitude beyond the capabilities of the SAM. Thus, the maximum available for "Buk-M1" - 730 meters per second. A target flying at a speed of 800 meters per second. It was decided to step up efforts "Buk-M1" shooting S-300PMU2. As a result, these three targets were destroyed by concentrated fire of two anti-aircraft missile regiments.

On the positive side it should be noted that when analyzing the results of the Main Command Air Force leadership gave an objective assessment of the work of our AME did not hide, and some rough edges. Head of anti-aircraft missile troops Russian Air Force Major-General Sergei Babakov said in a joint air exercise between India and Russia "Aviaindra 2014 'task was to practice joint actions to combat employment of aviation and air defense systems. In particular, the latter solved the problem of covering the object of massive air strikes, which is applied with precision weapons, tactical ballistic missiles and aerodynamic. All air targets that are included in the affected area have been destroyed.

Indian settlements worked well and smoothly in the new anti-environment, in an unknown for them to theater. "It is concluded that they are trained professionals, according to their actual work, the subject of conversations and issues - said Sergey Babakov. - And for their participation in the construction of group-defense. "

General stressed the need to further develop the tactics of shooting ZRPK "Armour" in the movement.

"For two target missiles made three starts, but one was a failure - said Babakov. - The rocket went into the ground close to the position and the targets were destroyed by another PU. In this situation, we will carefully sort out the landfill caused by industry representatives. "

Very good result showed SAM "Buk-M1", from which you do not even expect. "We did not think that he will be able to successfully work at such distances and this class of targets, - explained the general. - Apparently, today added to the skill calculations luck. "

The overall conclusion is. Grouping, built with Indian experts and decision on the distribution of efforts yielded positive results, possible to completely cover the object. As a conclusion, Deputy Chief of Staff of the Air Force, Major-General Alexander Lyapkin, on the teaching of "Aviaindra 2014" were solved almost all the tasks. Worked out the problem destroy ground targets, fire support troops, the use of aviation issues in search and rescue support, and extinguishing fires. Each crew performed on the six flights that included night.

"We are interested to hear the opinion of the Indian colleagues, exchange of experience in operating equipment, tactical innovations - with satisfaction the final tally Alexander Lyapkin. - By all accounts, was on the teachings of a new page in the history of military cooperation between the Air Force of the Russian Federation and the Republic of India. "

In November, will the next step exercises "Aviaindra 2014", which (there is such a forecast) will be held regularly.

Oleg Falichev ,
Lipetsk - Ashuluk

More than buying we are getting first hand exposure to newer Soviet/Russian SAMs and SOPs which make up the backbone of the PLAAF AD network - S300s f.e. Its an invaluable aid for India and I hope we continue this exchange.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 23 Sep 2014 14:25

-deleted-

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Sep 2014 17:00

nik wrote:Wasn't the Rafale thread famously bragging about 'high availability' of Mirages. This article is contradicting that altogether? And the blame game is well crafted - heard this exact same thing from british gents as well.

To think about it, almost bought the argument 100* 'anything french~80% availability' > 200 MKI * 40% availability !

Looks like anything imported will have less than 50% availability just because we buy end of life products and pay scandalous amounts for spares. Even FMS deals are going to be same as even pentagon complains about spare parts prices (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-0 ... a-445-gear)

Its not always that bad. Availability is subject to availability of spares. Su-30 MKI availability will rise over time to consistently around 80% plus because of local spares. Mirage 2000 is trickier because everything (almost) in it, is imported since HAL never made it, we never got TOT and only limited indigenization was attempted.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Sep 2014 17:09

For a long time now I've been advocating the need for a dedicated strat. bomber for the IAF,which could carry stand-off PGMs and also carry a portion of our nuke triad when required. We are rather late off the block.Apart from its two stealth designs,China is now known to be developing its own stealth bomber.India has no strike aircraft that could reach all parts of China in its inventory other than the IN's TU-!42 Bears ,which Russia still uses to good effect as strat. bombers,its original purpose,as has been seen in recent times testing western air defences. China also possesses large numbers of Badgers.China has the capability hit any part of India with its LR bombers operating out of Tibet,but we cannot reach Beijing with the assets that we have unless tanker refuelling is accomplished in hostile airspace.

It is also reported in the media today that it has beefed up its air strike capability and air defences with aircraft and missiles in its Tibetan air bases as a result of the current mil. stand-off with the IA.It would be prudent for the IAF to acquire asap SU-34s/Backfires (which need upgrading) and/or develop a stealth bomber rather than the AMCA which would mirror in many respects the FGFA being co-developed with Russia .Latest reports indicate that the roadmap has been agreed upon by both sides with more news when Putin visits.

The report has an important welcome piece of news for India,that Russia has rejected the Chinese request to buy a large qty. of RTU-22M$ Backfire strat. bombers.One may recollect that these were on offer to India too.Perhaps this could be part of the discussion when Pres.Putin visits us.

Ck. the link for the pic.
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 0922000067

China developing a stealth bomber

Staff Reporter
2014-09-22
China is developing a new stealth bomber called the H-20 to firm up the PLA strategic bomber force, said Bill Sweetman, a military journalist and Richard D. Fisher, an expert in Chinese military development.

Russia and China are both proceeding with bomber plans while the United States is developing its own Long-Range Strike Bomber project, said the Washington-based Aviation Week & Space Technology report. China's H-20 bomber is most likely to be developed and produced by Xi'an Aircraft Industrial Corporation. The aircraft concept will probably be a subsonic low-observable "flying wing" configuration.

The development of a stealth bomber received "renewed national attention" back in Oct. 2013, according to colonel Wu Guohui, an associate professor from China's National Defense University. "In the past China has been weak regarding bombers, but in the future will develop long-range strike aircraft," he said. Even though the PLA Air Force has said virtually nothing regarding their plans, the H-20's completion is rumored to fall somewhere around 2025.

By that time, China will need the stealth bomber to accomplish two important strategic ambitions. The first is denying the US from entering the First Island Chain, extending from Alaska to the Philippines. Second, China will have to soldify its leadership in the Far East with a wide force projection capability. The H-20 would allow the PLA Air Force to complement the gathering global aircraft carrier and amphibious projection capabilities of its navy.

The H-20 could be developed as an unmanned combat aerial vehicle if the US and Russia decide to design their future bombers as such.

In the meantime, the PLA continues to develop a new version of the H-6 bombers and upgrade obsolete models with new weapons. Russia's rejection of China's request to purchase the more advanced Tu-22M3 leaves the country with no option but to develop or upgrade its own aircraft.

PS>One has little info about our very own stealth UCAV and its capabilities other than a few reports.It does not appear however to be intended as a dedicated LR strat. bomber with a limited range according to some reports.Here's one,pics in the link.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b5b_1358118610

India's stealth bomber (UCAV)

On May 31, the chief of India’s Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) Vijay Saraswat was guest of honour at a little-known aerospace seminar in Linkoping, Sweden. The missile scientist took a spin in a Swedish Saab Gripen fighter jet, giving local journalists a fun photo-opportunity. But nestled in an elaborate presentation Saraswat later made at the seminar was something that had never been seen before: The first ever design images of an Indian military project that’s been officially designated secret, one that neither drdo nor any other arm of the Ministry of Defence will say anything about. The pictures were of the Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle (IUSAV), codenamed Aura, an advanced unmanned stealth bomber that resembles classified experimental Cold War aircraft rather than anything India has ever been known to attempt.While the prospect and development of such an aircraft is enormously complicated, iusav is being built for a simple mission profile: Take off under remote control by a ground crew, enter enemy airspace undetected and virtually invisible to enemy radars, deploy strike weapons against designated targets and return to base. In one official document, the Aura is described as a “unmanned self-defending reconnaissance aircraft”, indicating that it will also serve as a spy platform capable of evading missiles if fired upon. drdo aims to deliver the highly complex stealth bomber to the Indian Air Force (IAF) in seven to eight years.
The secret Aura programme currently functions on a Rs.100-crore start-up budget for the design and definition phase. A top officer associated with the programme indicates that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)-a consortium of agencies including drdo labs and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd-was hoping to complete a major chunk of the complex project for just under a billion dollars. drdo has its most complex and daunting aerospace challenge at hand, considering that the specific technologies that would make the IUSAV useful are areas that India has little or no expertise in. These include flying wing aerodynamics, RADAR absorbent paint and structural materials, remotely deployable smart weapons for surgical strikes, and most importantly, the intricate and unassailable communications and data-link architecture required to control an aircraft with a lethal payload from hundreds of miles away.
If the Indian aerospace establishment’s recent track record with indigenous aircraft is any indication, IUSAV appears to be an audacious pipe dream. DRDO’s own defence to such a claim is that unmanned combat drones comprise secret propriety technology that no country will ever share with India. And while that’s true, France, Sweden and the UK have all started discussions with DRDO in an attempt to push their technologies into the Aura programme.
Indeed, IAF, which will be the primary operator of iusav, has conveyed in no uncertain terms that it wants a platform with as little foreign assistance as possible, and strictly no foreign help in any of the critical design areas and sub-systems. This stricture springs from the force’s reasonable fear that foreign governments or contractors could withhold critical after-sales help during a conflict or war. In March, Defence Minister A.K. Antony informed Parliament that a modified version of India’s troubled, unfinished Kaveri jet engine could power iusav. Several academic institutes, including IIT-Kanpur, have also been roped in for specific areas of critical research for use in IUSAV.
DRDO is working on other totally new areas that include serpentine jet intakes critical to stealth performance and cool exhausts to suppress the platform’s infrared give-away, enclosed weapons bays and conformal sensors and antennae that will perform their crucial functions without compromising on the low observability.
If everything goes as planned, an off-limits section of ada in Bangalore, headed by senior aeronautical scientist Biju Uthup, hopes to begin testing a prototype of IUSAV by 2016. As things stand, IUSAV is only the latest in a healthy list of similar ‘flying wing’ stealth drones being developed across the world.

Read more: http://indiandefencenews.in/indian-stea ... r-a-secret
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b5b_1358 ... LKwrRs9.99