Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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NRao
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by NRao »

Why didn't that happen?
They had/have more important things on hand:

India, Africa to cooperate in securing Indian Ocean
Entering 2014, the year that will see the hosting here of the Third India-Africa Forum Summit, the focus will be on the key element of maritime security cooperation between the neighbours separated by the Indian Ocean, the key waterway for trade between the West and the East.
PM:
Pointing to this global context, where India is an emerging power, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told a conference of Indian Navy commanders that "as we strive to realize our due place in the comity of nations..it goes without saying that the realization of our goal lies in widening, deepening and expanding our interaction with all our economic partners, with all our neighbours, with all major powers."
(India has not changed much. Every PM seems to have said that).

A think-tanker:
"We have to tell Africans about what our policy is on the Indian Ocean, we need to have a strategic dialogue,"
Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Sorry,Aditya,they are not rants and not anti-American,but anti joining an American led military alliance that would be catastrophic for India.Just look at the track record of the US in the last decade in Iraq and Af-Pak,over $700+B spent,countries in shambles (yesterday there was another massive car bomb in Iraq killing dozens) both physically and politically,the Syrian opposition funded by the US and its allies now fighting each other .Taliban and ISI poised to return to power in Afghanistan. The US and its allies beggared in the process by these futile "expeditionary wars".Look at the state of the British defence forces today.Do you want India to join this happy bandwagon and take on China in a spat that is of no direct concern to us?
India has fought and won almost all of its wars (except'62) alone.We do not need to be initiated into the art of winning wars especially by a nation that is in full retreat in Afghanistan,and Iraq and hasn't the guts to attack Syria with a minimum of force!
As the Afghans said of the Pakis,"who are they to advise us on wars ,those who have never won a war advising us who have never lost one?"


Just look at what Sec. of State John Kerry said about the US attacking Syria "with minimum force"!
U.S External affairs Minister John Kerry said, the U.S President Obama is thinking on the attack on Syria with minimum military forces.While England has refused to attack Syria, United States in thinking of attacking Syria with minimum military forces.
Will anyone ever expect the US to spar with China if they run scared of Syria? What a bl**dy farce!

If you can't discern the difference,please study the posts more carefully.Cheers.

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"

China is strolling all over Africa and we now treat them like ignorant natives who know little about maritime strategy! O tempora ,o mores!

Years ago I was told by a former CNS then in charge of a goodwill flotilla to an African country,had so impressed its pres. that he asked the good adm. whether the IN would draw up plans for its navy and India build the ships.It took him a whole year to get babu approval for 2 air tickets for IN officers to visit the country,by which time the pres. thought that the IN/India didn't care about his request and it was withdrawn.

Delay in SoKo deal for minesweepers after approval 3 years ago .Proves what I and others have been saying all along.US deals get passed in indecent haste thanks to Quisling Singh,while others get shafted.IMR reported (posted in another td.) that IAF and IN top brass were shocked at the speed with which the extra 6 Hercules transports were approved,instead of the MMRCA/Rafale deal still pending.They needed "fighters" not transports.IA officers said that the arty need was long pending (26 yrs actually) and arms acquisitions worth $50B in the pipeline had not made any significant progress .No wonder that AKA is being called the worst ever Def. Min.It is shameful that we have to have a foreign head to tell it to us face to face!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

V.Adm Arun Kumar writes in the Deccan Chronicle about the threat from "Pakistan's Dirty Bomb threat",using its Chinese built subs in the future to fire N-tipped missiles at Indian coastal targets.Mumbai,etc.,as well as IN task forces in the region.That we should reconsider our "NFU" N-policy in the light of this.The testing of Pak's NASR battery,quadruple salvoes by its NSF (Nuclear Strat. Force) indicates that it intends to use tactical N-weapons against India to negate Indian mil. superiority.The NASR (60km range) is a Chinese rocket,WS-2.1-5KT miniature N-warheads were tested by China in 92,Pak does not need to test them.The Sino-Pak deal for 6 Qing class subs equipped with 700km cruise missiles is Pak's answer to our ATV.It does not need N-subs,if its conventional subs can fire the sub-launched Chinese equiv of the Babur missile,another Chinese origin product.This is something that we've warned about a longtime ago,Sino-Pak collusion and using N-tipped cruise missiles.The IN will now have to beef up asap its sub capability to deal with the increased and dangerous threat from Paki subs off our coastline armed with N-tipped cruise missiles.It's why I've been advocating priority for our sub fleet,which needs large numbers of subs for the littorals alone to counter the Paki threat,which will get wrose after the Saudis also acquire their 24 German U-boats which may be passed onto Pak,who are supposedly supplying them with N-warheads for their Chinese BMs.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Mihir »

Jugal Purohit is reporting on Twitter that INS Sindhughosh has run aground in Mumbai harbor.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

!*&#$?! If true then the IN must take its medicine.Just last month a learned scribe was telling me about he was told by an IN insider,the low standards of efficiency today in the IN,where "time servers" are on the increase.
BIG BREAKING: Efforts are underway to salvage the INS Sindhughosh using tugs and existing equipment inside the naval dockyard in Mumbai
Not the first time:
January 2008 – INS Sindhughosh, a kilo class submarine, collided with a foreign merchant vessel MV Leeds Catle while trying to surface the seas north of Mumbai.
A 2011 report.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... 812300.htm
Floating danger
LYLA BAVADAM
Maritime disasters and abandoned vessels pose a serious threat to the Mumbai coast.
ramana
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by ramana »

Maybe the IN is wrecking their old subs to force MMS to buy new ones?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

HT reports that the sub has been "salvaged" after running aground on the sea bed.Some relief.No newspaper reports.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by uddu »

There is a need for a medium sized base somewhere in between Mumbai and porbandar. Diu seems to be a suitable location.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Some reports say that it was refloated with the tide,no damage.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

With the Vikrant being setup for scrap, if Daksh type robots and Exoskeletons, both science projects at this juncture can make a difference in the upkeep of this ship? they could perfect the robotics on a real A/C in contrast to NSG's Bollywood model of a airplane to train for anti-hijacking scenarios. Daksh could be doing odd tasks such as mating of munitions to aircraft, defusing military grade munitions, power washing the deck etc., on the A/C

Just as ISRO is building space suits etc., Navy would have to build suits for underwater diving, maybe the exoskeleton concept can be used here as well to withstand high pressures at depth, now that the underwater gas pipeline is coming up, they could work alongside the AUVs, in naval vessel flooding situations operating "jaws of life" equipment on naval grade steel

For IA operating in Siachen, one may need a different type of exoskeleton which is also suitable for mountain climbing, in Kargil they mention how 10 soldiers were required to pull one soldier upwards the face of a cliff to have the element of surprise, with a Wankel engine + battery driven exoskeleton probably this "lift" ratio could be improved and then maybe name it TFTA.
Last edited by vasu raya on 18 Jan 2014 23:01, edited 1 time in total.
Eric Leiderman
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Eric Leiderman »

There is a lot of silt in the Mumbai port , it needs constant dredging. Hence soft landing, damage if any will be minimal
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

vasu raya wrote:With the Vikramaditya being setup for scrap,
You mean Vikrant??
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

yes, my bad
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Neshant »

Has India put thought into how to decommission (scrap) its nuclear subs once it reach the end of their service life?

It would appear to be a very important design consideration that has to be made prior to the sub's construction.

It should be designed to be easily decommission at any time.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Confirmation from earlier intel reports about the PLAN's carrier ambitions seem to be justified by this piece of hot news. It puts the IN's own carrier plans into perspective too.As of now,the IN has plans to build IAC-2 as a larger 65K t flat top,whose propulsion and launch/recovery system has yet to be finalised.There have been some hints that a thirs carrier,IAC-3 ,sister ship to the IAC-2 might also be built and in the light of the news about China's flat tops will now be a serious proposition depending upon the success of IAC-1.From the time frame mentioned,it appears that b7 2018,both India and China will have two carriers each.We may also be able to keep the Viraat alive for a little longer.She would be very useful in the training role,and supporting amphib ops.Once IAC-1 arrives,her workload could be significantly reduced.The IN should examine the issue in the light of China's huge naval ambitions.

With the Sundhugosh scare,it is imperative that priority is given to immediately augmenting the IN's sub fleet apart from issuing the tender for the P-75I second line,whose evaluation and contract negotiations could take at least two years,that too with a new govt. sure to take over from the UPA-2.The speed with which Vietnam is acquiring 6 Kilo 636.3 upgraded subs from Russia suggests an interim option.Out of the 10 we had,one is supposed to be irredeemable as we dismantled it for a refit but reportedly can't put together "humty-dumpty" again,and lost the SRakshak in the Bombay tragedy.2-3 new Kilos to augment older ones which also need upgrading would ev entually give us between 8-10 boats,which even with the 4 German U-209 boats and 6 new Scorpenes,would still give us only 18 conventional boats ,a number that the IN earlier possessed when it had 4 Foxtrots,4 U-209s and 10 Kilos in service.We would optimistically have about 4 nuclear subs too,2 ATVs and 2 Akula-2s by 2020.Which would have to counter 4 times that number of PLAN subs apart from those operated by Pak and the Saudi U-boats in the pipeline.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/ ... alian-yard

Work under way on China's second aircraft carrier at Dalian yard

Huge ship and two advanced destroyers being built at Dalian yard says Liaoning party chief, according to reports later deleted from internet
China is reportedly building a second aircraft carrier, estimated to be completed by 2018, on its way to expanding its fleet to four of the massive ships.

Media reports - later deleted from the internet - stated Liaoning party chief Wang Min told a panel of the provincial people's congress that the second carrier was being built in the city of Dalian. The reports also quoted Wang as saying the port city was building two advanced 052D destroyers.


Wang told delegates from Dalian yesterday that the shipyard had started building China's second carrier after the first one, Liaoning, was delivered to the navy. The shipyard was responsible for refitting Liaoning, formerly a Ukrainian carrier.

Wang said construction of the new carrier would take six years and China's navy would eventually have four.


While the report did not specify the exact completion date, the new carrier is expected to be completed in 2018, based on the delivery date of Liaoning to the navy in September 2012.

It was the first confirmation by a senior official that China was building a second carrier, as well as the location and the timetable of its construction. The Defence Ministry has been tight-lipped about the progress of the plan.

The South China Morning Post reported in November that China would build four medium carriers by 2020. A country needs three to four carrier battlegroups for combat capability. The United States, by comparison, has 10 active carriers.

The carriers are part of China's push to develop a so-called blue water navy at a time when tension is running high with neighbours including Japan and the Philippines. In December, the USS Cowpens had to change course to avoid a near collision with one of the ships in the Liaoning squadron conducting tests in the South China Sea.

Military experts yesterday were divided about why the report was removed from the internet.

"I am sure Wang Min did say that in the panel meeting. But it seems that it is not proper for him to make the news public," a senior naval colonel said, requesting anonymity.

One retired PLA general said: "There is only one reason for such an important piece of news to come out in this way: the central authorities want to keep it low profile."

Macau-based military expert Wang Dong yesterday said it made sense that Dalian shipyard was responsible for the construction of the new carrier.

"However, it is worth keeping an eye if Dalian also gets the orders to build type 052D destroyers as they are usually built by Shanghai shipyard. If Dalian is building both, it may exceed their capacity,' he said.

A spokesman of Defence Ministry yesterday declined to comment when reached by the Sunday Morning Post.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Victor »

Navy's guns sink with tender
By “disproportionate risk” BAE Systems meant that the Defence Ministry was placing the onus of performance of BHEL in executing the contract with quality guns and timely deliveries on the foreign OEM, which would have no control over the functioning of the PSU. Non-performance by the PSU would entail penalties being imposed on the OEM.
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has not been able to design and develop a 127mm/5-inch gun indigenously.
Continuing saga of our carefully planned disarmament plan.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by TSJones »

Neshant wrote:Has India put thought into how to decommission (scrap) its nuclear subs once it reach the end of their service life?

It would appear to be a very important design consideration that has to be made prior to the sub's construction.

It should be designed to be easily decommission at any time.

One important factor over looked in the video. The US is paying for the destruction of the reactors and the casking and storage of the reactors on the island mentioned in the video. We also pay for the guard service on the island. We also pay for many other bio/nuclear sites in Russia and the former Soviet Republics. In fact, there is a major site in Kazackistan(sp) we just finished cleaning up and are now monitoring.
NRao
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by NRao »

Interesting info:

Image
SaiK
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SaiK »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20723
thank god! still, i would like more inspection raaj within IN to take up soon.
Eric Leiderman
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Eric Leiderman »

I am sure the IN has stringent operating/navigating procedures, Are they being adhered to? In the merchant marine Audits are conducted according to an international code called ISM , Does the navy have an external audits by an agency with the requisite safety clearances? Infractions are written up and have affected promotions (if they are serious) in the Merchant Marine. Serving ex personnel might give some insights?
If you continually catch the small mistakes , the probability of a big mistake is reduced big time.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

Via facebook

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Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Alternatives? The Russians have their 130 mm gun on the Sov class DDGs.The IN /MOD now have no alternative but to just import the number required to complete the first batch of warships,with enough spares,etc. to last at least 5 years.Either 127mm guns from the western manufacturers or the Russian 130mm gun.But surely this issue should've been concluded at least 5 years ago? Designing a warship and getting it built takes at least 10 years.Does one have to award the tender for something as vital as thre main gun at the 11th hour?!
When the B-8s are also to arrive is a moot point.The delays in the follow on destroyers and frigates is symptomatic of the disease afflicting the MOD/DPSUs in general,poor planning and mismanagment.The services bemoan that fact that the lack of technical minds within the MOD who can understand defence issues and their technicalities,hampers quick decision making

The mainmast of the K class DDG looks frighteningly disproportionate to the rest of the warship.One wonders about the stability factor (which must've been tested for most stringently),and whether the mast is a lightweight structure featuring composites.

The future of naval guns looks bright according to this article.
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... -guns.html
aturday, July 20, 2013
A new golden era for naval guns?


Modern, miniaturized guidance technology is making possible to turn cannon shells into high-accuracy effectors, with a great range and a cost much inferior to that of missiles. Missiles have never entirely replaced the naval gun because of their cost, and because they have significant difficulties in effectively engage targets at very short range. In addition, you can’t really fire warning shots with missiles. On the other hand, naval gunfire support was seen as a dying specialty until not so long ago. It was indeed the experience in Libya, with several thousand rounds expended against targets ashore, that really revived interest for naval guns.

It is fair to say that we are very possibly entering a new golden age for naval gunnery, thanks to the long-range, precision guided ammunition which is about to attain full technical maturity and enter service in the first few navies. It is a revolution in which Italy, though Oto Melara, has a big say. And it is a revolution that involves the Royal Navy, which plans to buy a new medium caliber gun system (including guided, long range ammunition), rolling it in service as part of the Type 26 Global Combat Ship package.
The Oto Melara 127/64 “Lightweight” gun and the BAE Systems / United Defense MK45 Mod 4 127/62 are the two contenders for the contract, which would likely expand, later on, to include a retrofit to the Type 45 destroyers as well, to enable the RN to keep its medium caliber gun logistics focused on one single type, as the old MK8 bows out of service.

Oto Melara is a key player in the new naval gunfire revolution as it produces those that, as of now, are the most innovative and advanced products in the sector: the 127/64 gun, the lighter 76/62 Strales, and the related guided ammunition, VULCANO and DART.
BAE systems replies with the ambitious 155mm Long Range Land Attack Projectile (LRLAP), developed specifically for the Advanced Gun System (AGS) mounted on the sole three ships of the DDG1000 Zumwalt class of the US Navy. More significantly, BAE systems has been recently working to validate a more exportable product which, like Italy’s VULCANO, is compatible with normal 127mm naval guns and 155mm land howitzers: this new ammunition is the Standard Guided Projectile (SGP) and it meant to fill the capability left by the cancellation of the ERGM (Extended Range Guided Munition) program.



The Oto Melara line

The 127/64 Lightweight and VULCANO ammunition
The 127/64 Lightweight is the most modern medium caliber gun in the world. It is being installed on the Italian FREMM General Purpose frigates and it has also been ordered by Germany for installation on the new F125 frigates.
The Lightweight is also being jointly offered by Oto Melara and Babcock for installation on the british Type 26 frigate.
The Lightweight gun system is in production since 2010 and has been first installed on the Italian FREMM-class frigate Carlo Bergamini. More than a simple medium caliber gun, the LW is a system which comprises the gun tower itself, the Automated Ammunition Handling System (AAHS), the VULCANO ammunition family and the Naval Fire Control System.

The 127/64 is the latest evolution of the older 127/54 COMPATTO gun which Oto Melara sold to several countries all around the world (Italy, Japan, South Korea, Argentina, Peru, Niger, Venezuela). The extent of the evolution is such, however, that it is fair to say that the Lightweight is more or less an entirely new system.
The 127/64 gun employs a 64 calibers barrel made of high-resistance steel alloys. It has a water cooling system and a pepperpot muzzle brake, while the stealth shield of the turret is realized in aluminum, lighter and cheaper than the Glass Reinforced Plastic used in previous models. The gun tower comprises a modular automatic feeding magazine with four rotating drums, each holding 14 ready-to-fire rounds, for a total of 56 shells.
The drums can be reloaded while the mount is in operation, allowing for the sustainment of extremely long bombardments. The drums can be manually reloaded by personnel lifting the rounds in position, or they can be refilled automatically by the highly mechanized AAHS magazine system. The auto-loader is equipped with a system that automatically recognizes each variant of the shells in the drums, allowing the quick selection, in any moment, of any kind of ammunition available. The ammunition flow is also reversible, so each round can be unloaded and exchanged right up until immediately before the firing.

The AAHS mechanized, automated ammunition depot is a wholly modular system which can extend over two or three decks into the ship. It is equipped with special “moles” which can take the rounds out of the storage boxes and bring them into the feeding drums of the gun mount. Again, the ammunition flow is reversible, so the rounds can also be brought all the way back, with little to no direct human intervention. On the FREMM frigates of the Italian navy, the AAHS is installed over two decks (deck 2 and deck 3) and can hold 350 rounds in addition to the 56 held in the feeding drums.
The 127/64 gun system is thus able to fire 30 and up to 35 rounds per minute. The Naval Fire Control System calculates the ballistic trajectories, programs the fuzes and, when the GPS-guided VULCANO rounds is used, sets up the GPS data before launch. It can be easily integrated via LAN onto any kind of Combat System, in a Plug and Play fashion. Thanks to the NFCS, the 127/64 is also very effective in anti-air role.



Images from the firing trials of the 127/64 of the FREMM frigate Carlo Bergamini. The first image shows the excellent capability of engagement at very short range, which can seriously ruin the day for suicide boats and similar threats.


The revolution, though, comes with the VULCANO family of long range projectiles. The VULCANO, differently from LRLAP, ERGM and SGP is not a rocket-propelled munition, but an under-calibre, rocket-shaped dart with a diameter of 90 mm. VULCANO employs a discarding sabot to be fired out of the barrel at extremely high speed while avoiding two of the main complexities of full-calibre rocket-propelled rounds: increased barrel wear and tear, and difficult deployment of the folding fins used for guidance. These problems, along with huge cost escalation, were the factors which killed the ERGM.

VULCANO is a steerable sub-munition with tail fins and canards. The submunition is the same in both the naval 127mm variant and in the land 155mm variant. The difference comes down to the sole sabot and launch charge assembly: the naval shell is an all-up round compatible with any NATO 5’’ gun, while the army variant is modified to employ land-specific modular launch charges.
The VULCANO family comprises the BER (Ballistic Extended Range) variant, which is not guided and only has fixed winglets: it uses aerodynamics and ballistic trajectory to extend its reach to 70 km, and it is useful for a long range bombardment in which pin-point accuracy is not needed.
The most interesting VULCANO variants are, however, the Guided Long Range (GLR) ones. These include:

- GPS / Inertial Navigation System
- GPS / INS / Semi Active Laser
- GPS / INS / Infra-red Imaging

The GPS/INS/SAL round variant was originally to be developed only for use from land 155mm howitzers, but when Germany entered into the VULCANO program, they pushed to develop it for the 127mm naval guns as well. The industrial agreement giving the go ahead to this development was signed in the summer 2012 during Eurosatory. Oto Melara supplies the projectile, while Germany’s Diehl supplies the miniaturized, shock-resistant Semi-Active Laser seeker. The VULCANO is, effectively, a tri-national program which sees Italy, Netherlands and Germany co-funding the development.

The addition of a SAL seeker to the GPS and inertial navigation guidance makes this variant of the round extremely accurate. With external laser designation of the target, it can engage with high accuracy even moving targets.

The GPS/INS ammunition is mostly suited to use against fixed targets, whenever high accuracy is needed to reduce the risk of collateral damage. The Circular Error Probable for this round variant is inferior to 20 meters. This is possible thanks to the steerable canards and fins which guide the ammunition on the target with a near-vertical descent, which maximizes both accuracy and lethality.
The addition of a SAL seeker makes the VULCANO capable to engage small, fixed, moving and relocatable targets (including vehicles and small boats) with extreme accuracy, with a CEP reduced to a handful of meters. The Semi Active Laser seeker guides the shell on a target illuminated by an external laser marker, which could be “painted” on the objective by a UAV or by observers on the ground.

The IIR seeker is instead meant primarily for anti-ship role. This variant of the round is in fact produced only for the 127mm naval guns. Targeting enemy ships on the open sea is a complex job, and it might be very hard, if not flat-out impossible, to have a third party observer marking the target with a laser. The anti-ship VULCANO is meant to be fired over the area where an enemy ship is known to be sailing, and engage the target on its own.
The ammunition is thus programmed to enter a descending trajectory already a few miles before entering the target area, allowing the built-in IIR seeker to scan the surface of the sea to detect and track the heat signature of the enemy vessel. Once the target is located, the maneuvering round will pursue it, using its canards and fins to steer to compensate for the enemy’s evasive maneuvers.
Much cheaper than an anti-ship missile, the VULCANO IIR is much less deadly, taken singularly, since its warhead is much, much smaller. However, a dart as small and fast as a VULCANO is considerably harder to detect, track and engage with hard-kill defences such as CIWS guns and missiles. Besides, a big number of guided shells can be fired in very short time against the same target, saturating its defences and inflicting deadly damage with multiple hits.

VULCANO rounds employ a microwave fuze called 4AP (4 Action Plus) which offers detonation on impact, proximity, time or airburst, with the possibility to program before the launch the height over the ground at which the round will explode to pelt the target with pre-fragmented slivers.
The advanced fuze, the high accuracy and the modern pre-fragmented warhead compensate for the much smaller payload carried by the sabot-discarding dart, ensuring an adequate lethality.

In terms of useful range, the VULCANO BER round offers a 60 km reach when fired from the old naval 127/54 or from land howitzers in caliber 155/52 (fired by a shorter 155/39 barrel, as mounted on the British Army’s AS90, the value would be inferior). Fired from the 127/64, the range is around 70 km.
The GPS/INS and GPS/INS/SAL will fly 120 km if fired by a 127/64, reducing to around 100 km when fired from the shorter barrels of the 127/54 and of the 155/52 howitzers employed on land.
The anti-ship ammunition has shorter legs, since it begins to descend from its ballistic trajectory much earlier than the other variants, to enable the IIR seeker to find the target. A warship will be engaged at around 70 to 80 km.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

mumbai is this week under extreme low tide and zero wave action, with a strange sea fog enveloping the city all day even at 12 noon or 3pm all fog. bigger merchant ships must be sitting offshore unable to move in.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

P-15A is quite a good looking ship ...the hull are are quite smooth , also the weapons package , electronics has a combination of newer and proven system with the Navy .... a judicious mix of both ...... hope the Barak-8 testing is done and we can commission it very soon into the navy.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by pankajs »

INS Sindhurakshak likely to be moved out of water in 4 months
More than six months after its submarine sank in the Mumbai harbour, the Navy on Tuesday said it was close to finalise a contract to salvage the vessel which was expected to be moved out of water in another four months.

..
The foreign vendor has sought 45 days to bring his heavy instruments to the accident site and another three months for salvaging the vessel and putting it in a dry-dock, they said. Soon after the mishap, the Navy chief had stated that the inquiry would be completed in four weeks but later it was realised that it would not be possible to do so without bringing it out of water.

After the mishap, the Navy is now going for upgrading the capabilities of its four Russian-origin Kilo class vessels and two HDW submarines. They said the sinking of the Sindhurakshak has not resulted in putting extra burden on the remaining vessels.

The force was also close to finalising the contract for procuring deep sea rescue vessels, which will be useful in rescuing submariners in case of a mishap in deep sea to evacuate them. A submarine will be showcased in the Navy tableau at this year's Republic Day parade.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by John »

Philip wrote:Alternatives? The Russians have their 130 mm gun on the Sov class DDGs.The IN /MOD now have no alternative but to just import the number required to complete the first batch of warships,with enough spares,etc. to last at least 5 years.Either 127mm guns from the western manufacturers or the Russian 130mm gun.But surely this issue should've been concluded at least 5 years ago? Designing a warship and getting it built takes at least 10 years.Does one have to award the tender for something as vital as thre main gun at the 11th hour?!
When the B-8s are also to arrive is a moot point.The delays in the follow on destroyers and frigates is symptomatic of the disease afflicting the MOD/DPSUs in general,poor planning and mismanagment.The services bemoan that fact that the lack of technical minds within the MOD who can understand defence issues and their technicalities,hampers quick decision making
You mean the Ak-130 it is far too big for any of our ships it is dual 130 mm gun it is a beast the weights over 80 tons, Soviet were hoping to pick off NATO ships in congested Mediterranean using those guns along with pounding away coastal areas. The Russians did devolop single light weight 130 mm turrent the A-192M which is intended for it's next generation destroyer. It uses same FCR as Talwar's A-190 not sure why A-192 was not considered. But looks like Russia did not even apply for the tender.

So i am guessing this news means P-15A has Oto 76 mm not 127 mm speculated earlier?
Nikhil T
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

INS Sindhughosh embarks on a patrolling mission
21:48 INS Sindhughosh embarks on patrolling mission: The INS Sindhughosh, which had a close shave last week while entering the harbour here, today left the port on a patrolling mission. The submarine left the Mumbai harbour on a patrolling mission, navy sources said, stressing that the vessel was in good condition and had not suffered any damage.

The INS Sindhughosh is a Kilo Class submarine of the Navy procured from Russia. Last week on Friday, the submarine had encountered a situation where there was very less water in the harbour but held to its position using ropes and other means but was not grounded, they said.

In August last year, the navy lost its latest submarine INS Sindhurakshak after an explosion in its torpedo section killing all the 18 personnel on board.
Glad everything is okay!
Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

PrNK-29/KUBR Integrated fier-control and navigation system

http://youtu.be/BT6dDfp5ra4
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Keel for P15B, the second line of Guided Missile destroyers after the three Kolkatta class destroyers has been laid at Mazagon shipyard. Surprisingly it was a VERY VERY low key function which scarcely any fanfare (apart from the blowing of conch shells at the event). with modular construction the construction cycle should be shortened. see pics at MilPhotos.net.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Aditya G wrote:Image
Kolkata class destroyer clock at 6800 tonnes and Delhi class at 6200 tonnes, but just by a visible comparison of these two, the Ks look massive in comparison. (see the above pic as an example). What gives?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Jaeger »

Thats a b-class frigate behind...
John
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by John »

Shrinivasan wrote:Kolkata class destroyer clock at 6800 tonnes and Delhi class at 6200 tonnes, but just by a visible comparison of these two, the Ks look massive in comparison. (see the above pic as an example). What gives?
As noted earlier that is not Delhi and those are just Projections remember Shivalik was projected at 4500 Tonnes and of course it ended with displacement of well over 6000 Tonnes. My guesstimate would be Kolkata would be around 7500 tonnes with Barak-8 installed.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

That would require a more powerful powerplant.Perhaps 500t extra? There could also be significant weight reduction in later D class DDGs over the last decade.Here's an interesting interview with a Russian co. that has worked extensively with India and how the "Club" designation came about.

http://indrus.in/economics/2013/11/28/c ... 31205.html

Concern Agat looks at increased cooperation with Indian Navy
November 28, 2013 Alexandra Katz, specially for RIR
Concern Morinformsystem-Agat, which develops sophisticated naval defence systems, is increasingly looking at expanding its presence in India, which is the largest export market for Russian arms and ammunition.
One of the Russia’s largest defence holdings, Concern Morinformsystem-Agat was formed a decade ago as an umbrella organisation for various government enterprises engaged in designing, manufacturing and maintaining technical readiness of the whole range of radio-electronic systems that are subsequently installed in control centres, on ships and units of the Russian Navy.

The organisation engages in a wide range of works - from manufacturing radar and sonar systems to designing the so called Combat Information and Control Systems (CICS) that control all kinds of maritime strike missile and artillery weapons, ship-borne and ground-based.

Among export products produced by Scientific Production Association Agat, the core enterprise of the Concern, and other enterprises under Agat umbrella, are Club-S and Club-N Missile Ship-borne Firing Control Systems for submarines and for surface ships respectively, MR-123 and Puma (5P-10) Artillery Systems, radar Stations, combat Information and control systems for surface ships and submarines and Bal-E coastal missile systems.

Georgy Antsev, General Director and Chief Designer of Concern Morinformsystem-Agat, talked to RIR about Russia-India cooperation in the naval domain and the new opportunities this cooperation promisesfor the organisation.


What are today’s international priorities of the Сoncern - what regions are you focusing on and what products are you offering to international customers?

Concern Morinformsystem-Agat as a whole has been functioning since 2004 - for less than 10 years. It is not the age for a major defence holding to talk about large-scale international activity. Nevertheless I can say that we have a head start in this field. Our enterprises (there are 15 of them in total, some of them being older than 50 or, even 100 years) have vast experience of cooperation with foreign partners. In this regard the holding as a whole will have to learn from its current subsidiaries and adopt their experience.

Today within the framework of the Russian state policy on military technical cooperation with foreign nations our Concern offers military equipment to quite a few Asian, African and Latin American countries both separately and already installed on the ship. Concern and its enterprises have contractual obligations with countries like India, Vietnam, Algeria, the CIS and many others. That being said, of all the countries listed above India has always been our top-priority partner, with whom we cooperate in both military and civil sector.

Can you shed some light on current projects with India? Out of various products and technologies Agat can offer, what can be of interest to India particularly?

I suppose today we are witnessing a fundamental change in the approach of the Indian government and its navy authorities towards equipping combat ships. Nowadays it is impossible to woo India just with lower prices and a flexible offset policy.

India wants to acquire and install the equipment, but, more importantly, it wants to adopt the technology and access engineering solutions and design development. At this stage Agat can offer quite a few technical solutions as well as cooperation patterns.

India is a special customer for us. On one hand, the potential of the Indian defence industry, especially its IT-specialists, is great and keeps growing with every passing year. On the other hand, the nature of the strategic partnership between our countries permits us to share with our Indian partners the state-of-the-art design and solutions. Therefore, the most interesting for the Indian customer would be complex combat management integrated systems for surface ships and submarines based upon acquisition and processing of data from different sources, including space vehicles, aircrafts, radars, acoustic means (ship-borne and stationary) and operation centres for the navy. We are open for a mutually rewarding dialogue, but you have to understand that such complex systems are of special interest to any country and details of specific negotiations cannot receive wide coverage in the media.
Related:

Harder than rock: Russian composites on their way to India

NLMK plans to increase steel supplies to India
India purchases licence to manufacture Invar anti-tank missiles

Agat-designed systems among other missiles use the BrahMos missiles jointly produced by Russia and India. Did Concern participate in theBrahmos Aerospace JV between two countries?

Our Concern participated in the BrahMos program indirectly: it handled the development of the Russian equivalent and the prototype of the BrahMos missile. However we have vast experience in designing unified missile control systems that use missiles produced by the MIC NPO Mashinostroeniya JSC, the partner of BrahMos JV from the Russian side. Today we have projects of joint use of the first series of the Club missile systems, supplied by Russia to the Indian Navy for Talwar type frigates. By the way, our Concern manufactures its fire control system. In case the decision is taken in our favour the Concern’s technical potential and cooperation experience would come in handy.

Which of your systems are currently used by Indian Navy?

I’d like to mention that India is the first country in the world that received the Club missile system. The very name "Club" came up during negotiations with the representatives of the Indian Navy. Only after that was the system with the "Indian" name bought by the navies of other countries and became a full-fledged brand with a lot of modifications.

Without false modesty we can say that at present the majority of the Indian Navy surface ships and submarines are equipped with our products. Today it’s not only Russia-produced ships, but also those manufactured in India. Shivalik and Talwar class frigates, Delhi and Kolkata class destroyers, Kilo class diesel-electric submarines and, naturally, Chakra class nuclear submarine. And here, we mean not only the above mentioned general-purpose firing system 3R-14UKSK and the Club-U missile system, but also our radar systems, missile and artillery weapons control systems, CICSs for surface ships and submarines.

As for the Club-U, it's no coincidence that the Indians have chosen this modification, since the system can be supplied with Indian missiles PJ-10, developed by the Brahmos JV.

Do you consider the possibility of establishing a JV with Indian companies, as some other Russian companies have done in recent past, for example, in order to manufacture modifications of your systems in India directly? Or you prefer following traditional tender system?

We consider all opportunities of potential cooperation with the Indian partners. Participation in supply tenders is a conventional, trusted and, I suppose, easier option. A JV would mean that we are ready to settle in the Indian market, which is per se a very attractive idea as a JV can be established not only to manufacture modifications of our systems on the Indian territory, but to support the life-cycle of the products supplied by the Concern, specifically its repair, modernization, personnel training etc. On the other hand, before launching a JV we need to thoroughly study local market conditions and national legislation. In such subtle issues as military industrial sector the government policy and even the attitude of a certain government matter.

Today there is much anxiety about fundamental changes in the Indian military industrial sector towards a broader participation of private enterprises and PPS (public private partnerships) in the defence sector. We welcome a more open and transparent approach to assignment of tenders, more consistent legislation that would not discriminate on the basis of a company’s origin. I would like to reiterate that we are open for multi-track discussion with our Indian partners, and we reject no forms of cooperation.

How strong is the competition from Western companies in the Indian market?

It goes without saying that there are companies in France, Germany, the USA and Israel that produce systems similar to those developed and manufactured by the Concern. Obviously we analyse our every system in comparison with foreign analogues. As it would be too tiring and unnecessary to invoke specific systems in much technical detail, I will just say that if we offer our systems to India – the country that today can choose suppliers from all over the world, it means that we are pretty sure our products are the best.
пустым не оставлять!!

Rogozin, Antony discuss further military-technical cooperation

Are there any specific advantages of Agat’s solutions that benefit India as a customer?

First of all, it’s the versatility of the proposed technical means. Among our unique products that have almost no analogues in the world is CICS for submarines and attack weapon ship fire control systems (SFCS). Secondly, in the frame of our partnership with India we are ready not only to supply weapons but openly cooperate in developing new arms and equipment with technology and development transfer. Today we are ready to offer this pattern only to our Indian partners due to the traditionally good and trusted relations between our countries in the defence sector. Besides, and I think it's extremely important, we envisage the ways of using the soaring Indian potential in design and engineering to jointly develop products and sell them to the third countries.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by John »

Philip wrote:That would require a more powerful powerplant.Perhaps 500t extra? There could also be significant weight reduction in later D class DDGs over the last decade.Here's an interesting interview with a Russian co. that has worked extensively with India and how the "Club" designation came about.
60,000 Shp should be adequate for that size even larger Udaloy and Daring have propulsion system that generate less shp.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by uddu »

Many of the ships are old. They need to be removed from service with new induction. Otherwise issues keeps happening. Not that good to keep very old ships. Even INS Viraat can be decommissioned now as INS Vikramaditya is commissioned into service. The airwing that can still fly can operate from INS Vikramaditya.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

Heavy rainfall earlier this year caused Amba River, that flows into Mumbai harbour, to deposit higher amount of silt.

Since its low tide, evidenced by water stains on the harbour wall, onc can also just about see the Harbour Defence Nets that prevent saboteurs or midget submarines from creeping in. IN also has Harbour Protection sonars.
Aditya G wrote:Via facebookImage
Here is TFTA's scraping their bottoms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_USS_P ... _grounding
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by maz »

http://m.indianexpress.com/story/1967964/hindia/india/

Talks about recent incidents afflicting the IN
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