PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Kersi » 14 Jun 2018 16:38

Looks like we have a number of saleSmen for PAK-FA and FGFA on BR. (and for a lot of other Russian products too)

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby kvraghav » 14 Jun 2018 18:39

I think it has partly to do with treaties and acts like CATSAA . I Still remember there was an article on how the sea king helicopters were not available for casevac due to US sanctions during kargil which would have saved lives.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 14 Jun 2018 18:51

I think it has mostly to do with

1) IAF reportedly panning its stealth capability and future maintenance costs

http://amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/the-war-zone/15327/india-might-finally-terminate-their-stealth-fighter-program-with-russia?source=dam

years of squabbling over the program, usually characterized by credible reports of the Indian Air Force's dismay with the qualities of the Russian aircraft



2) India being shut out from the decision making despite the money we put in; it was looking like the “tot” we got for the MKI

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/after-sukhoi-mistake-india-to-go-for-russian-5th-generation-fighter-only-on-full-tech-transfer-pact/amp_articleshow/57551801.cms

India will go in for the multi-billion dollar joint development and production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology as well as "benefits" for the indigenous effort to build a futuristic stealth fighter.
Defence ministry sources say this decision has been taken at the "highest levels" in order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme from Russia, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore without any tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.


This is not complicated. There is no need for conspiracy theories.

The IAF dislike its qualities and the nation decided that “partnership” in the thing will get us the same restricted “tech transfers” as the MKI and we’re not doing that again.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Bart S » 14 Jun 2018 19:48

Kersi wrote:Looks like we have a number of saleSmen for PAK-FA and FGFA on BR. (and for a lot of other Russian products too)


Salesmen would at least have some real justification and there might be some logic to it, might even get some grudging respect. It is a much more pathetic than that, there are too many armchair fanboys who get carried away, forgetting that they are Indians on an Indian defence forum, this is serious stuff that impacts our strategic interests (not juvenile Android vs IOS type fanboy flamewar about some gear) and that they should be rationally putting Indian interests above all else. It's the Russian equivalent of trying to be 'More English than the Queen', and the same applies to the various other Amriki/French/Israeli fanboys as well.

Chola saar's post above sums up accurately why the IAF doesn't see much value in committing to the whole Russian spiel about the PAKFA/FGFA at this point, and they seem to have arrived at this conclusion based on their experience so far with Russian equipment and 'partnership' and their own assessment of the threat environment (which is anyday more credible than armchair fanboys on an Internet forum).

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 14 Jun 2018 20:05

It is the money..."that makes the mare go".Simple truth.Regarding absence of skilled manpower, there was a report in VAYU some years ago stating the very same.Not enough manpower and tasking the OUT team to also handle the FGFA!

Not too long ago we had official reports that all technical matters regarding the FGFA had been finalised after lengthy discussions between both sides and the cost of the JV was also decided.We simh don't Have the money otherwise we would've clinched the Rafale deal in Toto.
As I said , today the FGFA is not top priority.Many other mouths to feed! Therefore focus on maximum opportunity with the LCA first and then start jogging.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 15 Jun 2018 03:03

srin wrote:and PAKFA is *probably* good enough in a couple of years.


So was Admiral Gorshkov when it was inspected by a joint team of Russian and Indian Naval Specialist.

Bhaisaab ignition switch dabayo aur engine ON
we all know how that went.

I don't want PAK-FA.
its a black-sink Hole for our money

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Kashi » 15 Jun 2018 05:10

Kersi wrote:Looks like we have a number of saleSmen for PAK-FA and FGFA on BR. (and for a lot of other Russian products too)


Not just Russian, we have an no fewer batting for Unkil's wares as well.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 01 Jul 2018 12:59

After India opts out, Russia orders fifth-gen Sukhoi-57 fighters

FGFA would have cost the IAF $113 million each, compared to Rafale’s $162 million


By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 1st July 18

In a reminder of what the Indian Air Force (IAF) is missing, the Russian Air Force (RAF) has placed its first order of the Sukhoi-57, the Russian fifth-generation fighter that New Delhi recently decided not to co-develop and co-manufacture with Sukhoi.

“The first contract for 12 [Sukhoi-57] aircraft will be signed soon, and the deliveries under this contract will begin shortly,” said Russian Deputy Defence Minister Alexey Krivoruchko on Saturday, according to Russia’s Sputnik News. The minister was visiting Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Sukhoi’s biggest plant that will build the Sukhoi-57.

The first batch of Sukhoi-57s will enter service in 2019, stated Yuri Slyusar, chief of Russia’s umbrella United Aircraft Corporation, under which Sukhoi operates.

As Business Standard first reported (April 20, $8.63-billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice), National Security Advisor Ajit Doval told Russian officials in February that Russia could proceed alone in developing the Sukhoi-57, or Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), as its proposed Indian version was called. Doval said India might join the project later, or buy the Sukhoi-57 after it entered service in Russia.

The RAF plans to field about 200 Sukhoi-57s, while the IAF was planning to build 127 FGFAs in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which would also co-develop the Indo-Russian fighter with Sukhoi. But, in a turnaround last year, the IAF said the Sukhoi-57 lacked in key attributes like stealth, active scanning radar and the ability to super-cruise – or fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners.

Russian pilots and officials hotly contest this. The further argue that the Sukhoi-57 is currently flying with an interim engine, the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 turbofan, while Russian engine maker, NPO Saturn, develops the more powerful “Izdeliye 30” engine, which is expected to be ready by 2020.

The Sukhoi-57’s prototype, called Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii (PAK-FA) first flew in January 2010. Since then, even as New Delhi and Moscow engaged in protracted negotations, Sukhoi took the aircraft – there are currently at least 11 prototypes – through an extended flight-test programme.

Now the Russian order indicates the RAF – a demanding customer – is satisfied with the Sukhoi-57’s performance.

For India, the FGFA project was economical, if anything. HAL was to pay a half share – amounting to $4.3 billion (Rs 30,000 crore) – for 50 specified improvements to the Sukhoi-57 to meet IAF requirements of greater stealth, faster data networks and 360-degree radar. This included the cost of four Sukhoi-57 prototypes for the IAF to test-fly and the setting up of facilities to manufacture the FGFA in India.

With each Sukhoi-57 production fighter estimated to cost $70 million (the Sukhoi-30MKIs that the IAF bought from Russia cost just $43 million each), the cost of each FGFA – including the $4.3 billion development cost amortised over the 127 fighters that HAL would build – would have amounted to $113 million each.

The IAF would have obtained a fifth-generation, built-in-India fighter at a far cheaper price than the made-in-France Rafale, for which India is paying $162 apiece, plus the additional cost of maintenance, spares and weapons.

Another argument in favour of the FGFA was that co-developing the fighter with Russia would feed into the ongoing Indian development of a fifth-generation Advanced Medium Fighter Aircraft (AMCA).

After the IAF argued that the FGFA would duplicate the AMCA project, an expert committee was set up under Air Marshal S Varthaman (Retired) to consider this. In July 2017, the committee ruled out any conflict between the FGFA and AMCA.


Officials have hinted that New Delhi dropped out of the FGFA project at Washington’s nudging. Yet, Russia-related pressure continues, with new American legislation – “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA) – threatening sanctions for buying weaponry from Russia, especially the S-400 air defence system that Moscow and New Delhi have signed an agreement for.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby uddu » 01 Jul 2018 13:56

^^^Propaganda article.
He want us to consider Su-57 because RAF being the demanding customer inducted it. Just before that writes that IAF found the plane not stealthy. :rotfl: Now who is demanding customer, not inducting a half ready fighter? Some figures from here or there without mentioning what's the cost going to be for India for the final variant of the fighter. Nor mentioning how much will the weaponry and other things are going to cost. Finally what's the serviceability of Su-57? Common sense will tell him that 4 Tejas over 1 Su-57 is better since there will be fighters flying rather than an expensive so called stealthy Su-57 on the ground. The last paragraph must have been written while having vodka. :rotfl:

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby pankajs » 01 Jul 2018 14:01

Consider the following quote
With each Sukhoi-57 production fighter estimated to cost $70 million (the Sukhoi-30MKIs that the IAF bought from Russia cost just $43 million each), the cost of each FGFA – including the $4.3 billion development cost amortised over the 127 fighters that HAL would build – would have amounted to $113 million each.

The IAF would have obtained a fifth-generation, built-in-India fighter at a far cheaper price than the made-in-France Rafale, for which India is paying $162 apiece, plus the additional cost of maintenance, spares and weapons.

Another argument in favour of the FGFA was that co-developing the fighter with Russia would feed into the ongoing Indian development of a fifth-generation Advanced Medium Fighter Aircraft (AMCA).

"Co-developing" ... "feed into ... AMCA". For India/HAL to get the benefit of the so called "Co-developing" HAL must be involved at some stage. Can anyone shed light of HAL's "work share" in the so called "co-development" project that goes by the name of FGFA? Wasn't this the original source of friction between India and Russia on FGFA?

Now that the project is in the process of being inducted into RuAF, can some one enlighten how many FGFA test machines have been delivered to IAF for testing? How many sorties has IAF/its Testing wing have flown till date of this "wonder machine"? After all this is a "co-developed" machine!

This as bogus as they get. There is absolutely no other way to describe this CON both on the part of Russia and this ex-fart who goes by the name of "Ajay Shukla".
Last edited by pankajs on 01 Jul 2018 14:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Trikaal » 01 Jul 2018 14:06

It's simple maths. India cannot support 4 aircraft development programs concurrently. So we had to drop one out of Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA and FGFA. Considering that the other three are indegenous, the choice shouldn't be that hard. There is no other conspiracy of American Pressure and what not.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby kit » 01 Jul 2018 14:39

Indranil wrote:On a head to head between the PAKFA and the F-35, I will put my money on the PAKFA blindly . That is all that I would say.
.


If you talking about capabilities the pakfa is still a work in progress while the latter is already deployed for some time and operational. Buying the f35 is totally another question , life is not so simple at times .

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Vips » 01 Jul 2018 17:18

HAL was to pay a half share – amounting to $4.3 billion (Rs 30,000 crore) – for 50 specified improvements to the Sukhoi-57 to meet IAF requirements of greater stealth, faster data networks and 360-degree radar


Now should not a futuristic fifth generation aircraft have greater stealth, faster data networks and 360-degree radar? Looks like Russia wanted to again pull a fast one on India. Make India pay for goodies which common sense indicates should have been already there. Its not as if the IP for these technologies would have been given to India.

Good thing quality of Natasha and Vodka offered by Russia was not good enough for the officials to sign on the dotted line.

If the engine 'being developed' has the super cruise ability and the stealth and long range radar parameters are good then we can always have a one-off deal of outright purchase of maybe 40 birds later on.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Jul 2018 22:23

Anything official on this or just this report? If so I'll wait for something clear to come through.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby SaiK » 01 Jul 2018 23:42

Yes, it is what the news reported from MoD/Doval informing that India will wait for the platform to mature, and might consider in the future. No strong worded cancellation or anything. Essentially, no funds to Russkies from desh on this front

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Vips » 08 Jul 2018 16:57

India reconsidering Rs 2 lakh crore 5th generation fighter jet programme with Russia.

India has conveyed to Russia its unwillingness to go ahead with the joint development of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) primarily due to high cost involved in the project, official sources said.

They, however, said the negotiations between the two countries on the much ambitious project have not yet been shelved as India was ready to have a re-look at co-development of the jet if an appropriate cost sharing formula between the two countries was arrived at. (What co- development? The plane has already been developed)

India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement for the mega project in 2007, vowing to take the military ties between the two strategic partners to the next level. However, the project has been stuck for the last 11 years as there have been serious differences between the two sides on sharing cost of developing the jet, technologies to be used in it and number of aircraft to be produced.

The sources said the cost of the project has been estimated at around $30 billion or Rs 2 lakh crore. (If cost of development is to be paid by India then what will India get? Does India have to pay additional amount per bird when we buy or will the amount be adjusted against when we do screwdrivergiri?)

"Our position on various aspect of the project, including the cost component, has been conveyed to the Russian side and there has been no resolution to the issues yet," a top official involved in the negotiations with the Russia over the project said.

In December 2010, India had agreed to pay $295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter jet. Later, both sides had expressed intent to contribute each $6 billion for final design and production of the aircraft in the first phase. However, they could not come out with a final agreement on it.

"We have not closed our door on the project," sources said.

It is learnt that India was insisting on equal rights over the technology to be used in the aircraft but Russia was not ready to share all the critical technologies of the plane with New Delhi.

In the negotiations for the project, India had insisted that it must get all the required codes and access to critical technology so that it can upgrade the aircraft as per its requirements, sources said.

In February 2016, both the countries had revived talks on the project after a clearance from then defence minister Manohar Parrikar.

Sources said both sides were attempting to thrash out the sticky issues but added that India was not optimistic that the project will fructify due to cost involved in the project.

Interestingly, state-run aerospace behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is strongly pitching for the fifth-generation fighter jet project. The HAL feels the multi-billion dollar project will provide India a significant opportunity to encourage its aerospace sector as no country has ever offered such critical technologies to India. (Lazy PSU is only too happy to repeat what it has been doing all along to wants to secure jobs for another 2 decades)

There have been indications from the Indian Air Force that it was not very keen to pursue the project in view of the high cost.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby pankajs » 08 Jul 2018 17:26

^^
1. $30 Billion for how many birds? 127 per Shukla? How much does that come to per plane?
2. IAF itself is not too keen

BUT too much kite flying these days. So one has to take everything with a bucket of salt ...

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby nam » 08 Jul 2018 17:36

We need to keep it very simple. Can we atleast create a home grown J31?

Would IAF take a J31 with F414 & Indian, Israel,French gizmos, Astra & SFDR & Brahmos mini? Damn sure it will.

So if Russia can gives us FGFA shell, where we can put ours kit, well and good. If not we can create our J31 and put the stuff we want.

The difference between us and china is they spend money to built stuff (with bad or good outcome). We waste time discussing.We spend 250 million in a jiffy and lost it, while AMCA build is starved of money.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 09 Jul 2018 20:21

IAF unhappy at high cost" of the FGFA, but has had an " only Rafale" policy thus far in a far costlier deal for a non- stealth 5th-gen fighter.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 10 Jul 2018 01:00

Philip, that is complete and utter nonsense. The FGFA is anything but a stealth fighter. Even the Russian designers at Sukhoi have stated as much. Secondly, the Rafale is a proven 4+ gen platform and has seen active combat duty. Please do not bring up the PAK-FA's Syria ops, because it does not count. And IAF is more unhappy with the capabilities (or the lack thereof) of the PAK-FA than the cost. Please come to BRF with facts and not unsubstantiated claims.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 10 Jul 2018 02:32

Vips wrote:The sources said the cost of the project has been estimated at around $30 billion or Rs 2 lakh crore. (If cost of development is to be paid by India then what will India get? Does India have to pay additional amount per bird when we buy or will the amount be adjusted against when we do screwdrivergiri?)


Ha! that number is higher than the 12-16 we estimated earlier in the thread. It will need 10-15 years of further work. Dump it! put it in-house. HAL is stupid and only looking out for itself.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 10 Jul 2018 07:46

I would prefer a cheaper 4++ fighter than the Rafale which is hideously expensive and inferior to the SU-57 if we can't afford it .In fact Super Sukhois would be a better buy being BMos capable unlike the Rafale, plus they're to be built at home unlike the direct import.

The miserable Rafale buy unlike the deal negotiated from the start for full TOT, etc. has been a detrimental deal from both the financial angle as well as strengthening India's aero-engineering tech. base.Suporting the small fleet of just 36+ will in the future with huge supporting costs from the French, beggar and b* gger the IAF.They've already been adly b*ggered and beggared by the insanely expensive M2K upgrade,$50M a pop, now mired in controversy over labour costs at home.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 10 Jul 2018 08:59

nam wrote:We need to keep it very simple. Can we atleast create a home grown J31?

Would IAF take a J31 with F414 & Indian, Israel,French gizmos, Astra & SFDR & Brahmos mini? Damn sure it will.

So if Russia can gives us FGFA shell, where we can put ours kit, well and good. If not we can create our J31 and put the stuff we want.

The difference between us and china is they spend money to built stuff (with bad or good outcome). We waste time discussing.We spend 250 million in a jiffy and lost it, while AMCA build is starved of money.


The AMCA would be our homegrown FC-31 (not J-31 until officially a PLA project.)

In fact, it has the same general planform. Funnily enough the Turkish and the Korean 5th gens are also similar. The FC-31 is your generic run-of-the-mill stealth fighter.

FC-31
Image

AMCA:
Image

TFX:
Image

KFX:
Image

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby pankajs » 10 Jul 2018 09:14

Philip wrote:I would prefer a cheaper 4++ fighter than the Rafale which is hideously expensive and inferior to the SU-57 if we can't afford it .In fact Super Sukhois would be a better buy being BMos capable unlike the Rafale, plus they're to be built at home unlike the direct import.

The miserable Rafale buy unlike the deal negotiated from the start for full TOT, etc. has been a detrimental deal from both the financial angle as well as strengthening India's aero-engineering tech. base.Suporting the small fleet of just 36+ will in the future with huge supporting costs from the French, beggar and b* gger the IAF.They've already been adly b*ggered and beggared by the insanely expensive M2K upgrade,$50M a pop, now mired in controversy over labour costs at home.

That IAF likes Rafale better than SU-57 should tell us something about the relative position of both on the cost/value curve.

Sure the French have b*ggered us but what about our dear friends the Russians? The list for the Russian b*uggery is long indeed when viewed from a non-ideological position.

Anyone who is concerned about India/Indian defense would have cited b*uggery from all not quoted selectively and then gone on to show why one side/deal is better than the other even though both involve b*uggery in some form or the other.

Note: Couple of edits for clarity.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Prem » 13 Jul 2018 05:03

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-a ... ion-2018-7
Russia admits defeat on its 'stealth' F-35 killer by canceling mass production of the Su-57 fighter jet

Russia announced earlier this month that the Su-57, its proposed entry into the world of fifth-generation stealth-fighter aircraft, would not see mass production."The plane has proven to be very good, including in Syria, where it confirmed its performance and combat capabilities," Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Russian TV on July 2, as reported by The Diplomat.But despite Russia's nonstop praise for the plane and dubious claims about its abilities, Borisov said, per The Diplomat: "The Su-57 is considered to be one of the best aircrafts produced in the world. Consequently, it does not make sense to speed up work on mass-producing the fifth-generation aircraft."Justin Bronk, a combat-aviation expert at the Royal United Services Institute, told Business Insider that Borisov's comments "could be charitably described as an unreasonably optimistic reason why they stopped production."Basically, Borisov said the plane is so much better than everything out there that Russia doesn't need to build it — a claim Bronk finds unlikely.Instead, Russia will stick to what it's good at, with upgraded fourth-generation aircraft in service instead of the Su-57, which was originally meant to replace the older fighters.Initially proposed as a joint project with India, the Su-57 hit trouble when neither side could agree on how to split the production and technological development. After 11 years in the program, India withdrew, leaving Russia to go it alone with a weak economy.Now, India has been discussed as a potential buyer of the F-35 in another blow to Russia's dream of developing its own fifth-gen fighter.A senior stealth scientist recently told Business Insider that though the jet claimed a stealthy profile, it had glaring and obvious flaws. A 2016 report from IHS Jane's said the jet was fifth-generation "in name only."But the Su-57 carries a massive payload and was expected to one day carry nuclear weapons. Like the Su-35 before it, had super maneuverability beyond that of any US jet.By all means, the Su-57 appeared a next-level dogfighting jet capable of taking out the US's best fighters in close combat, but its failure to integrate stealth made getting in close with an F-35 or F-22 an unlikely bet."Russia is more or less admitting defeat in building a feasible fifth-generation fighter," Bronk said.For that price, according to Bronk, Russia can just put the fancy radars and missiles on its older planes in greater numbers, as the Su-57's airframe was never really stealth in the first place.Russia is working on new tanks, submarines, and nuclear weapons, all of which tax its already large defense budget. With other projects going forward, it appears the Su-57 has become the first casualty of a budget crunch.As the US's F-35 starts to come online in significant numbers and China's J-20 stealth jet deploys in earnest, it looks as if Russia is getting left behind in the world of top-class militaries.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 13 Jul 2018 07:53

Saves India 30 billion!!! Go AMCA GO!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2018 08:14

The IAF has never been one to push away phoren maal. But when it came out negative against this bird then you knew there was something seriously wrong with it.

We already saved their MiG-29K by paying for it when nobody else would — not even the damn Russian Navy.

Not going to pay for another one of their sh1t projects. If the SU-57 is any good then they would have powered on to mass production with or without Indian money.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 13 Jul 2018 08:40

They had opportunity to do MRTA.. They screwed the pooch by sitting on it and not collaborating. We should have partnered with Ukraine and put a french/canadian engine on it.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Haridas » 13 Jul 2018 09:30

All of IAF advance money paid to Russia is cutting loss on a bad dream, and close the books.

IAF better wake up & smell some coffee. Cut some flab, channel it to create a design office lead by technical officers only (no flying pilot) and go make a weapon it can trust and afford. AMCA.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Haridas » 13 Jul 2018 09:38

chola wrote:The IAF has never been one to push away phoren maal. But when it came out negative against this bird then you knew there was something seriously wrong with it.

We already saved their MiG-29K by paying for it when nobody else would — not even the damn Russian Navy.

Not going to pay for another one of their sh1t projects. If the SU-57 is any good then they would have powered on to mass production with or without Indian money.

What do you mean saved their Mig29k?

India could have bought the damn Mig corp for the money it paid for Mig29k. It was the classic Yindoo foolishness to not go for the kill even when there is no risk.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Jul 2018 09:39

That not what Yuri Borisov said , The western media as usual are twisting the story to favour their agenda :lol:

He said 12 aircraft are now produced for initial squadron service till 2020 post that mass production will take place ,when reporter asked why it was now mass produced now he said Su-35 was getting produced so there is no need to hurry.

Russia Places Initial Production Order for Stealth Fighter
The Russian defense ministry has ordered 12 new production Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighters and confirmed next year as the target date for entry-into-service. First flown eight years ago, 10 prototypes of the Su-57 have flown to date, and two of these may also join the first squadron. One of the prototypes has been flying with new "Item 30" engines since last December, but the initial production aircraft will retain the less advanced AL-41F-1 turbofans (manufacturer’s designation Item 117).

Yuri Slyusar, president of United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), has said that if flight tests of the Item 30 engines go as planned, they will be installed on production Su-57s starting in 2023-2025.


Inspecting Sukhoi’s KnAAPO factory in Komsomolsk-upon-Amur in late June, deputy minister Aleksei Krivoruchko told journalists that the Su-57 prototypes had “demonstrated full compliance to the customer’s specification” during flight trials and the overseas deployment in Syria last February. Reportedly, this deployment lasted for several days, during which four aircraft flew combat missions out of the Russian expedition force’s main base in Khemeimeem, to hit targets in the rebel-held areas during the Syrian Arab Army’s Operation “Damascus Steel.”


Two months after that, the defense ministry released a few shots from a video that showed an Su-57 launching a missile from its internal weapons bay in the lower fuselage. The weapon bore a close resemblance to the Tactical Missile Corporation (Russian acronym TRV) Kh-59MK2 that debuted at MAKS’2015. It is the second weapon by the same designation: the previous Kh-59MK2 was on display at MAKS’2009. Both are subsonic and have a firing range of approximately 300 km. While the earlier example had a launch weight of about a tonne and an active-radar seeker to home on radio-contrast targets, primarily ships, the newer version weighs 770 kg and employs an electro-optic seeker to home on land targets.

Although the defense ministry officials praise Sukhoi and KnAAPO for timely execution of state defense orders, including on the Su-57, they are yet to place substantial orders for the type. The exportable version, known as the Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), is also having difficulty with its first intended customer, the Indian air force, which has not yet decided whether to stay in the respective joint project with Russia.

When asked about the prospects for KnAAPO, Yuri Borisov, the deputy head of the Russian government responsible for military industrial complex, told journalists that the enterprise has a considerable order backlog for the Su-35. “Today, the Su-35 is one of the world’s best fighters, so there is no reason for us to speed up work on mass production of the FGFA.”
Last edited by Austin on 13 Jul 2018 09:41, edited 1 time in total.

Austin
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Jul 2018 09:41

Haridas wrote: India could have bought the damn Mig corp for the money it paid for Mig29k. It was the classic Yindoo foolishness to not go for the kill even when there is no risk.


Yes like the Russia would have sold Mig corp they are long amalgamated into UAC .......It is like asking GOI to sell HAL

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2018 16:22

Austin wrote:
Haridas wrote: India could have bought the damn Mig corp for the money it paid for Mig29k. It was the classic Yindoo foolishness to not go for the kill even when there is no risk.


Yes like the Russia would have sold Mig corp they are long amalgamated into UAC .......It is like asking GOI to sell HAL


You can’t disagree that our money was a lifeline to MiG at that point. Should at least had gotten full ToT including the right to make our own variants and export.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 13 Jul 2018 19:22

We have had many opportunities for both western and eastern aircraft deals,leveraging our market and prod. capability.The Dorniers for instance and after mass producing around 1000 MIGs.But then during those days,Cong. govts. were mostly in power.Defence spending was also limited without the huge forex reserves we have today. Secondly,govt. policy has changed over the last few decades.While the USSR was in existence,spares,support wasn't a major problem.It was after its collapse that it became problematic,being resolved now.Western eqpt. then became available but at high cost,why we're finding it so difficult to replace legacy eqpt. for all 3 services,with the In in the best shape because of its foresight becoming a "builder's navy".

Nowhere is it said that the Russians are dumping the FGFA! The current situ is such that there is a big demand for the SU-35,with several countries wanting it apart from the RuAF.It is a single-seater ,more attractive than an MKI or Ru equiv.,and can deal with any threat in the sky.With the F-35 also in a delayed induction into the US forces and its allies,with some cancellations (Italy),verboten to Turkey,etc.,there is no indecent haste to put large numbers of the SU-57 into service. The same with the Armata tank.NATO's defence spending ( by the Europeans) is an issue with Trump demanding more,as the financial slowdown in Europe ,social unrest-esp. in France where Macron is hated,is seeing a slowdown of new eqpt. being inducted.Even China is facing financial problems with its banks being saddled with massive NPAs and debts.

This is also why the GOI has decided to turn on the amber light on the bird.Not scrapped,but first the numbers of cheaper aircraft have to be hugely increased.In the Paki context especially as they steadily increase their numbers of JF-17s reducing our numerical advantage.One is sure that post 2020,
once China starts fielding its stealth birds in numbers in Tibet,plus start selling them to the Pakis,we will have little option but to order outright buys of SU-57s

PS:Thos hopeful for AMCA must realise that it will take another 15 yars for it to materialise in service even if the green light is given now.Under current eco circumstances,the billions reqd. to develop the ambitious tech for AMCA isn't in the pocket of the GOI. We have only the SU-57 as a 5th-gen option for the next decade.AMCA will be nowhere in sight until post-2020 going by the excruciating delays in getting even the unerperforming LCA MK-1 into smooth [production,let alone the improved MK-1A.As for MK-2,anyone's guess when it will arrive.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Jul 2018 22:55

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/s ... 2018-07-13

India had pulled out of the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) after participating in the preliminary design stage. "In the second stage, the detailed design and development stage, we have had to reconsider (our participation). After two years of discussions, we told the Russians sometime in February this year that please go ahead and we will get back to them."

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Indranil » 14 Jul 2018 08:56

Philip Sir you are just parroting what the Russian authorities have put out in the media. Even, I, a fan of FGFA/PaKFA can call that BS.

If FGFA is ready, only fractionally more expensive than Su-35, but much more capable: why would anybody not order PAKFAs instead of Su-35s today?

For example, F-35 is nearly ready, fractionally more expensive but much more capable than the F-16. Who is buying F-16s today? People are waiting for years to get the F-35.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Jul 2018 09:08

Haridas wrote:
chola wrote:The IAF has never been one to push away phoren maal. But when it came out negative against this bird then you knew there was something seriously wrong with it.

We already saved their MiG-29K by paying for it when nobody else would — not even the damn Russian Navy.

Not going to pay for another one of their sh1t projects. If the SU-57 is any good then they would have powered on to mass production with or without Indian money.

What do you mean saved their Mig29k?

India could have bought the damn Mig corp for the money it paid for Mig29k. It was the classic Yindoo foolishness to not go for the kill even when there is no risk.

Actually the Mig 29k cost was very low, if india wants to take advantage of Russian expertise and majboori, it needs to spend freely like the Chinese did in the 90s. Ownership of IP won't come cheap

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 14 Jul 2018 11:01

Yes.Just $32M for naval fighters.Egypt was offered std.29s for just $29M.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 14 Jul 2018 15:25

Cain Marko wrote:
Haridas wrote:What do you mean saved their Mig29k?

India could have bought the damn Mig corp for the money it paid for Mig29k. It was the classic Yindoo foolishness to not go for the kill even when there is no risk.

Actually the Mig 29k cost was very low, if india wants to take advantage of Russian expertise and majboori, it needs to spend freely like the Chinese did in the 90s. Ownership of IP won't come cheap


Cheap? Not particularly.

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/fighterplanes/texts/articles/MiG-29.html
First Deal: 12 MiG-29K and 4 MiG-29KUB contract signed in 20th January 2004 is worth Rs 3,405.61 crores as per CAG.[1][11] For an exchange rate of 45.43 at that time, the amount translates to $749.7 million.[10] Hence the average cost of a single MiG-29K is $46.9 million. The contracts for the jets also stipulate pilot training and aircraft maintenance, including the delivery of flight simulators and interactive ground and sea-based training systems. So the unit cost of the MiG-29K variant is still unknown.[2]

Second Deal: 29 MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB contract signed in March 2010 worth $1.5 billion.[2] So the average cost of the jet is $52 million. Another news release says the jets cost $1.2 billion. [3] That translates to an average cost of $42 million per plane. Most probably the deal also covers a whole host of other goodies, but the full details of the deal is still not yet available in the public domain. So the unit cost of the jet is still unknown. The Russian deal still not yet signed is said to be estimated at $1 billion for 24 jets.[9]


Buying MiG-29Ks off the shelf from a struggling MiG was at best penny-wise pound-foolish (if we consider $47-52M cheap — at same price for Super Hornet.) It was the best time to wrangle for IP, IMHO.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Rishi_Tri » 14 Jul 2018 20:53

Putin is ex KGB. Heeled in the art of deception by Cold War. Russia short of budget when Oil is touching daily highs! Find it hard to stomach.

At worst this program is being repurposed which makes sense given that Indian money is not going to be available.

Don't be surprised if some other program emerges or you suddenly find 100 Su 57 or Su XX flying. Do also note, there is Putin Trump summit coming up and there shall be wider context to this small event.

In any case can't wait long enough for private sector built NGT comes out in 2022.


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