PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2015 08:59

Interesting. Watch MAKS closely guys
http://aviationweek.com/MAKS#comments

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 29 Aug 2015 09:55

MAKS 2015: KRTV adds IR seeker to Kh-58UShK anti-radiation missile

Russia's Tactical Missiles Corporation (KTRV) company demonstrated for the first time at the MAKS 2015 air show its upgraded version of the Kh-58UShK anti-radiation missile featuring an imaging infrared (IIR) channel.

This missile intended to be integrated into the internal weapons bays of Russia's new Sukhoi PAK FA (T-50) fighter aircraft.

According to KTRV's general director Boris Obnosov, equipping the Kh-58UShK anti-radiation missile control system with a thermal imaging channel enables it to strike radars operating in pulse mode and turning off when the missile is in its terminal phase.

The Kh-58UShK and Kh-58UShK IIR missiles can be mounted externally on a range of aircraft (using an AKU-58-type pylon) such as the MiG-35, Su-30MK, Su-34 and Su-35, or as the UShK variants of the Kh-58 have folding wings they can be stored in an internal weapons bay (like on the PAK FA) using a UVKU-50-type launcher.

The missile is designed to both hit pre-programmed radar targets and targets detected by the target designation system of the aircraft. The new Kh-58UShK IIR missile has an innovative broadband passive radar seeker working in the 1.2-11 GHz frequency range to seek out enemy radars.

The upgraded antiradar missile weighs 650 kg, is 4.19 m long, has a wingspan of 0.8 m, and a body diameter of 0.38 m. With its wings folded the missile's cross section is 0.4x0.4 m. The missile has a range of up to 245 km, is designed to hit within a radius of 10 m of its target and has a 149 kg warhead.

The Kh-58UShK IIR missile was developed by the Raduga (Rainbow) state design bureau.


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2015 10:41

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-416112/


MAKS: Russia’s T-50 radar almost ready for serial production
By: JAMES DREWMOSCOW Source: Flightglobal.com 20:11 26 Aug 2015
The Tikhomirov NIIP radar system built for Russia’s first fifth-generation combat jet, the Sukhoi T-50, is “99% ready” to enter serial production but must first complete a series of development tests.

The active phased array radar consists of one forward-looking X-band radar in the nose section and two side-scanning arrays as well as L-band antennas along the wing flaps.

The system has been put on display for the first time at the MAKS air show in Moscow, and deputy chief designer of NIIP radar systems Andrey Sukhanov says he doesn’t have a time line for when the testing will conclude, but he is confident the overall design is stable barring minor tweaks.

“A lot of different equipment and items are involved in this testing, because it’s not only the radar being tested but the avionics of the entire system,” he says. “This is similar to the [Lockheed Martin] F-22, and the F-35 testing that is taking place now. It does not depend on which country or manufacturer, because the problems encountered are always the same.

“If the testing finds some things that require finalization or adjustments then it will be done, but as for our estimate, the radar is 99% ready for serial production.”

He gave little detail regarding the radar’s capability, other than to say it comes with air, ground and maritime modes and is easily adaptable to new air-launched weapons.

Sukhanov was also hesitant to say the number of threats the radar can track and target simultaneously, except to say “no fewer than the Su-35”. State defence exporter Rostec claims that aircraft can track up to four ground or 30 airborne targets out to 400km, while simultaneously attacking up to eight airborne targets.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2015 10:43

MAKS: Is Russia developing an F-35-hunting UAV?
image: http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/u/u/ll2/attention.gif
Part of channel(s): Ukraine (current event)
Russia could be working on a low-observable, F-35-hunting unmanned air vehicle that uses deeply-integrated electronic warfare systems to stay hidden from radars. The tip-off comes from electronic systems producer KRET, which has a curious UAV model on display at the MAKS air show inMoscow.

According to the company’s first deputy chief executive officer Vladimir Mikheev, this aircraft model is more than just a sleek promotional display – it is an advanced military UAV being developed by the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC).

Concern Radio-Electronic Technologies (KRET) is a subcontractor on the project, he says, providing the fundamental communications, radar, electronic warfare and self-protection systems, as well as the ground control station.

Speaking via a translator, Mikheev tells Flightglobal that the company is involved with two military UAV projects – one in development and one in the concept phase – but both ventures of UAC.

He declines to name the project and does not say which UAC design bureau is in charge, but confirms some of its key capabilities.

Mikheev says the UAV has been designed to detect stealth aircraft in the same vein as China’s ambitious “Divine Eagle” project, which he claims is based on technology “borrowed” from Russia and the USA.

Such aircraft aim to detect low-observable US combat aircraft using X-band and UHF radars, specifically the Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35 and Northrop Grumman B-2. But airborne surveillance is just one of the UAV’s capabilities.

Mikheev says KRET is providing a deeply-integrated electronic warfare system that not only provides a protective electromagnetic sphere around the aircraft to counter air-to-air missiles, but also cloaks it from radars.

The unmanned aircraft closely resembles Northrop’s carrier-based X-47B demonstrator, but adds two lift fans on each wing and vertical stabilisers.

Mikheev says the UAV’s avionics, radar and electronic warfare systems are derived from those being produced for the Sukhoi Su-35 multirole fighter and the Kamov Ka-50 attack helicopter. KRET is also deeply involved in the Sukhoi T-50/PAK FA fighter project.

In an articlepublished on KRET’s website on 2 August, Mikheev says Russia has been competing with the USA in the realm of electronic warfare “for our entire lives”, and about five years ago the company decided it needed to bring in the next-era of electronic warfare systems.

“Today we are talking about 15% to 20% annual growth in the direction of electronic warfare systems,” he says.

It remains to be seen whether this UAV project is just marketing or a mature development programme with similar goals to China’s Divine Eagle UAV. It would come as the stealthy F-35 enters serve as the West’s primary “first-day-of-war” combat jet.


Image

Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cdb_1440 ... sgRVbkz.99

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2015 10:47

From the last MAKS

Commentary: Do Russian Radar Developments Challenge Stealth?
Sep 13, 2013 Bill Sweetman | AWIN First
EMAIL
INSHARE



COMMENTS 2


Even when stealth technology was deadly secret and the F-117A did not officially exist, there was counter-stealth radar.

Textbooks told us radar cross-section (RCS) was frequency dependent, and tended to become increasingly so as the target shape grew more complicated. If the radar wavelength is of the same magnitude as prominent features of the target, the signal is scattered by a resonant mechanism that is unimpressed by cunning shaping or materials magic. In the 1980s, many older Russian systems operated in the VHF band, with wavelengths in the 1-2-meter range, which is about the same as the chord of a fighter’s tail surfaces and wingtips.

But, as I wrote in 1987:

“The price of increasing wavelength . . . is that the antenna has to grow in proportion to the wavelength in order to maintain a narrow beam and adequate resolution. The ‘mobile’ Soviet VHF radars are cumbersome, and early-warning radars such as Tall King (P-14) are large fixed structures and provide coverage of only one sector. Despite the size of their antennae, they are not accurate enough to manage a complete engagement.”

The Pentagon’s then-stealth technology director, Paul Kaminski, commissioned an aggressive Red Team in the very early 1980s that had both recognized the threat from VHF radars and discerned that it could be mitigated by artful mission planning. The Red Team’s work led to the development of the computer-driven route planner that F-117 pilots, fond of a vampish TV horror-movie hostess, nicknamed Elvira.

The same assessments applied when the requirements for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) were written in the mid-1990s. There are no signs that the raw RCS of the F-22 or JSF is much smaller than that of the F-117. The goals were to improve aircraft performance and maintainability, neither of which (to put it very mildly, indeed) was the F-117’s long suit. If you want a very low RCS in VHF, you need to lose the tails, which is why the B-2 is a flying wing.

It wasn’t hard for the Russians to assess the JSF’s stealth performance. By 1995, everyone knew that shape was the major driver of RCS, with materials being used to control local scattering phenomena. As the JSF’s target service entry date arrived, so did the Russian answer, and it was on display at the MAKS air show, held in Moscow in August.

The 55Zh6ME radar complex addresses many of the limitations of the old VHF radars. Although you see three radars—stepping down from VHF (metric) to L-band (decametric) and S-band (centimetric)—the Russians call them modules of an integrated radar system. Each unit is fitted with the Orientir satellite-navigation system, which provides a very accurate location and north reference. That should make it possible to provide sensor fusion—ensuring that when two or more of the radar units detect a target, it will show up as one in the control center.

The VHF part of the system (see photo) has a P-14-sized, 30-meter-wide antenna, but it folds onto an 8 x 8 truck. The antenna has an active, electronically scanned array, so if it gets a hit on a faint target, the array can dwell on it as the antenna rotates (or swings back and forth for a sector search). At the same time, it will cue its L-band and S-band sisters to focus on the target area like searchlight beams.

Some commentators will look at the Russian brochures, note that the reference ranges are against targets with an RCS of one square meter and observe that stealth aircraft have a far smaller RCS, which they do—in centimetric bands. Giving what was probably the least provocative answer under the circumstances, a Russian engineer notes that the Chinese DF-15 short-range ballistic missile has a 0.002 m2 RCS in X-band, but is a very non-stealthy 0.6 m2 in VHF.

Two exhibitors at MAKS were showing passive RF tracking systems. They are intended to exploit active emissions from the target but do not discriminate. Scattered energy from a radar will work just as well. The U.S. Air Force does have a modern facility for testing such bistatic radar signatures, but it was commissioned after the JSF was designed.

The Russian approach has its weaknesses. An Aegis on wheels makes a valuable, conspicuous and soft target when working. The claimed 15-min. set-up and strike-down time is ambitious, and the system has to have a fighter-like price tag. There is also no reason that a low-RCS target can’t use jamming, either onboard or offboard.

It would be reassuring to know that the stealth technology upon which the Pentagon plans to base air dominance for the next few decades has been thoroughly, recently and aggressively Red-Teamed against multiband AESAs and passive systems. If it has, nothing has been said about it.

There may be a universe where it is smart to give your adversaries (or their armorer) 25 years’ notice of exactly how you plan to render their defenses obsolete. We just don’t live there.
http://aviationweek.com/defense/comment ... ge-stealth

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2015 10:51

http://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/20 ... 015_393057
Sukhoi attack drone “lit up” MAKS-2015
28 August 2015 ALEXÁNDER KOROLKOV, MIR ROBOTOV
Yuri Slyusar, president of United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), told reporters during the MAKS-2015 Air Show in Zhukovsky that the company was simultaneously developing several unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for the Ministry of Defence. He was not, however, willing to disclose details about these projects.

Exhibits of the concern Radio-Electronic Technologies on display during the International Aerospace Salon (MAKS 2015) that has opened in Zhukovsky near Moscow. Source:RIA Novosti/Mikhail Voskresenskiy
In an effort to compensate for the absence of detailed information in the company’s official press release, Vladimir Mikheyev, first deputy general director of KRET Radio-Electronic Technologies Concern, candidly spoke with the correspondent from the British magazine Flightglobal.com, who was interested in a strange-looking drone model displayed at KRET’s exhibition pavilion. Mikheyev said it was one of the two UAVs on which KRET was working along with the UAC. Once it is introduced into service, it could be used to counter the American F-35 and F-22 stealth fighters. He added that this UAV would carry out the same missions as the Chinese Divine Eagle.

Competitor of the “divine eagle”

The UAV will use decimetre-wave radar and X-band radar to search for enemy aircraft. This drone will also be equipped with an airborne electronic warfare (EW) system, which will be able to blind homing missiles, if the adversary tries to knock down the UAV. All these technologies, Mikheyev said, have been borrowed from the Russian fifth-generation fighter jet, the PAK FA.



The UAV Zond project. Source: Press Photo

Mikheyev said one UAC project is currently being developed, while the second is at the stage of concept development. Representative of UAC refused to name the design bureau that was developing these devices or what names have been assigned to them.

In an official press release, KRET said, “... the majority of drones, for example, within the framework of projects Altius, Inokhodets, Okhotnik, used avionics equipment developed by KRET. It is known that the first two UAVs are being developed by the St. Petersburg company Transas and Kazan-based OKB Sokol OJSC. The name of the latter has already been “lit up” in the media, as a development of the UAC.”

пустым не оставлять!!
Winged debut: what will be on display at the MAKS Air Show?
The UAC’s second project, which Mikheyev also mentioned, is apparently the UAV Zond project. The latter, according to information given to the media, is a 12-ton UAV. Pictures of models of this UAV appeared on the Internet, and did not resemble the model on display at the KRET exhibition stand. From characteristics of the antenna on top of the fuselage, it is clear this is the model that Mikheyev designated as a rival to the Chinese Divine Eagle. For some reason, the two models got mixed up in the article written by Flightglobal.com, with the more mysterious model of the stealth drone.

The killer of “Raptors”

A lot more is known about the Okhotnik (Hunter). Technical requirements for this UAV were approved by the Ministry of Defence in April 2012. There were reports that this UAV was a fighter jet, able to hunt for enemy aircraft (the idea fits well with the name given to the project). This would indicate that the model presented at the KRET stand was the Okhotnik.



Skat. Source: RIA Novosti/Anton Denisov

On May 30, 2014, Oleg Bochkarev, Deputy Chairman of the State Military Industrial Commission, said that an attack UAV is expected to be ready in 2018. The media reported that Sukhoi attack UAVs would be using technologies developed for the fifth-generation fighter jets, corroborating Mikheyev’s assertions.In 2009, the former president of UAC, Mikhail Pogosyan, said the base for developing new UAVs would be the MiG, realized in the Skat project which was exhibited as a scale model at the MAKS-2007.

It is likely, therefore, that the UAV displayed at the KRET stand is the Okhotnik (Hunter), about which the head of the UAC chose to remain silent.

First published in Russian by Mir Robotov.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 29 Aug 2015 12:00

Lets keep this thread to PAK-FA/PMF discussion ,may be MAKS other news can be posted in Intl thread


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 30 Aug 2015 05:32

Its all relevant to the PAKFA, same as advances viz Neuron tie into the Rafale.

This is the new proposed UAV - the key takeaways are the radar arrays. A huge number, and which if sufficiently powerful and non X Band can present interesting possibilities. The key thing here, the reports the UAV will sport decimetric ie LBand arrays.

Note in particular the height finding arrays in the vertical fins.

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5813/10 ... 9_orig.jpg
Image

Note this is not merely fanciful - while the lift fans in the wings can be considered unproven, even the forward facing radar is exactly the same shape as the Irbis/Bars and the display is from KRET which is now the avionics house for Russia.

Relevant to the PAKFA, which will have L Band arrays in the wing (and presumably in the fins) for height finding.

Carlo Kopp can take a bow. He had predicted this exact arrangement.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-06.html

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 30 Aug 2015 08:02

TL;DR India has apparently worked on the terms of reference for a Bars upgrade, upto 400km range if an Irbis level 5Kw transmitter is chosen. IAF delay on PAKFA has meant the joint R&D program on PAKFA AESA has mostly become NIIP driven so far.

Link

the general director of JSC "NIIP Tikhomirov" Yuriy White.

- Something special for the MAKS show?

- This time, we demonstrate for the first time fully antenna system for the fifth-generation fighter. First we set the single antenna, then another, now in the pavilion will demonstrate the KLA full configuration - front antenna and side wing. Another highlight - the active phased array of cylindrical type, we show for the first time in Hall Concern PVO "Almaz-Antey". Usually all of the lattice plane, and to give all-round visibility, it is necessary to put three or four house. Here the cylinder, and due to a special distribution system beam rotates 360 degrees. And already the layout began to give specified characteristics. We just "brushed", and get a prototype. And, of course, will be presented at the MAKS SAM "Buk-M2E" of our development. But with the addition. We are together with the Ulyanovsk Mechanical Plant exhibit is also a trainer for this SAM that will prepare professionals who are not chasing equipment and producing resource.

- And what about the "Leopard"? Or the potential of radar exhausted?

- Do not exhausted. "Bars" is the Su-30MKI and Su-30cm, have ordered our air force, we did, say, Russified version of "Leopard" with the new range of weapons, taking into account the increase in the detection range, the new mode of operation and so on. d.

- Up to 400 kilometers of the detection range on the "Bars" will make it?

- If you put as a "Irbis", 5-kilowatt transmitter. In the future, such a possibility is considered. However, an upgraded version of the "Leopard/Bars" we do not show, because the terms of reference were issued just yesterday, but the contract may be signed just on MAKS.


- How likely is the emergence of an export version of the radar AFAR?

- Subject to date. With India, we had a joint R & D, but they held out the time and we have all of the output. Now, most likely, they will have to buy. In general, the export version of the AESA will naturally be.

- If you are going to sell locators AFAR, therefore, for its air force stashed something more perfect.

- Now we are developing a new version of AFAR - more promising. It will be smarter, more reliable and less time-consuming to manufacture, which is more adapted to mass production.

- It depends on how much mass. One unit - that's not mass production. Now, if planes AFAR will be ordered to the same extent as in the US, a different matter.

- Apparently, the NIIP development for the PAK DA also did not fall at the MAKS-2015, it is too early?

- While we are doing preliminary design. Naturally, in a project to accumulate all our achievements of the PAK FA for more than 10 years, and all that we have to "Irbis", in a word, the quintessence. We have such a backlog, which few can present. AFAR full-size working in this frequency range, more today no one, not only in the aviation version, but in the ground complex. And our AFAR, which stands on the PAK FA, flying for two years. And locator works steadily, all the characteristics are confirmed, but most importantly, there was no catastrophic failures. Periodically, we remove the antenna from the board, put on the stand and compare the characteristics of which have been at the supplier and have now, -degradatsii were observed.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 30 Aug 2015 08:03

Image

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 30 Aug 2015 08:08

Link on new weapons for PAKFA

As note NIIP:

- Themselves have to complete their education, and from school. We have sponsored schools, and there we have organized radiocircle. We recruit guys eyeing. Then our base Aviation College and a branch of the Moscow Aviation Institute in Zhukovsky, where we have two departments. Already the third year students take to their work and guide them to a degree. As a result, we obtain the specialist, meeting the requirements of the NIIP. Today we have about 450 young professionals under the age of 35 years, and 20% among them have chiefs of sectors, laboratories, offices, and thirty-five were the main designers.


And Tactical Missiles Corp
- Complicates the task of creating a high-precision weapons and the growth of production volumes require constant feeding enterprises highly skilled experts - designers, engineers and workers. At the beginning of this year, the corporation employs about 45 thousand people - the number of employees increased by 8% (in the category of workers - 10%). In the current year it is planned to employ more than 1000 people. We were able to generate a certain system for the preparation we need experts, so today young people under the age of 35 years among the companies of the group of employees is a powerful part - 32%.

This is the level a proper MIC operates at.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 30 Aug 2015 15:53

Karan M wrote:http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/fotografersha/13042289/2487860/2487860_original.jpg

What is this image supposed to be?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 30 Aug 2015 19:43

Its a beautiful pic of a PAKFA, thats just about it.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 30 Aug 2015 21:50

Perhaps the image indicates Air Flow over the airframe , Some times you see it on CAD/CAM design of fighters

Another image of rear end business of PAK-FA , Seems to got new pointed nose at rear

http://i.imgur.com/VPJL5d3.jpg


Close up of Glide Bomb Grom-2 , The stealthy airframe Grom-2/Kh-59 seen at rear

http://bastion-karpenko.ru/grom-e1-raketa/

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 30 Aug 2015 21:58

Good Collection of PAK-FA and other pictures of MAKS 15

https://www.flickr.com/photos/realhokum/page1

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 31 Aug 2015 10:52

Karan M wrote:Its all relevant to the PAKFA, same as advances viz Neuron tie into the Rafale.

This is the new proposed UAV - the key takeaways are the radar arrays. A huge number, and which if sufficiently powerful and non X Band can present interesting possibilities. The key thing here, the reports the UAV will sport decimetric ie LBand arrays.

Note in particular the height finding arrays in the vertical fins.

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5813/10 ... 9_orig.jpg
Image

Note this is not merely fanciful - while the lift fans in the wings can be considered unproven, even the forward facing radar is exactly the same shape as the Irbis/Bars and the display is from KRET which is now the avionics house for Russia.

Relevant to the PAKFA, which will have L Band arrays in the wing (and presumably in the fins) for height finding.

Carlo Kopp can take a bow. He had predicted this exact arrangement.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-06.html


I think Carlo Kopp had to stop updating his website as he was predicting too well for open source analysis. Also he told me his view on some program didnt go to well with higher up.

I think those Fans on UCAV can generate additional lift shortening the take off length but may not be primary source of life ala VTOL types. With UCAV you can try to be innovative with engineering without having to worry about impact of/on pilot. They have a 18-20 T UCAV program jointly done by mig-sukhoi , though I am not sure if what they displayed is what it would finally look like.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 31 Aug 2015 10:53

HD Res Display of PAK-FA flight at MAKS 15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47YW7IMl9Og

Work around of Mig 1.44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBB33mzgwfk

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 31 Aug 2015 10:55

Standing Committee on Defence, 2015

FGFA
The following milestones have been completed in respect of the FGFA project.
 IGA signed - October 2007
 Confidentiality Agreement signed - July 2008
46
 General Contract signed - December 2008
 IAF Technical Requirements Finalized - August 2009
 Work share finalized –November 2009
 Joint Specification document (TTA) signed - March 2010
 CCS Approval for PD Stage – December 2010
 Preliminary Design (PD) Contract negotiated & signed–21 December 2010
 T0 for PD Stage - 25 February 2011
 PD Stage completed – 19 June 2013
During the PD stage, the basic technical configuration of the FGFA has been completed
jointly by Indian team led by HAL and Sukhoi Design Bureau of Russia. An elaborate set of
design documentation has been delivered to HAL in two stages during the PD stage. From
the Indian side, in addition to HAL, the following agencies had participated during PD stage.
 DARE, DRDO: Low & High Band Jammers, Dual Colour IR Missile Approach Warning
System, Laser Warning Receiver, modules of the Mission Computer
 LRDE, DRDO: Side AESA Arrays, ISAR Algorithm for the main Radar
 ADE, DRDO: Second Flight Control Computer
 BDL: CMDS
 System Control: Weapon Bay Door Control System

Anticipating a long lead time for drawing up and finalization of the R&D Contract, HAL
initiated discussions with the Russian side as early as in September 2011. Substantial
progress has been achieved in drawing up the R&D Contract as a result of the
discussions so far. The progress is summarized as follows.
 Eight rounds (Sep 2011,Dec 2011,Mar 2012,Apr 2012,Jul 2012,Apr 2013,Sep 2013,Oct
2013) of technical discussions held between the two sides to define the deliverables and
principles of cooperation
 Contract has been discussed clause by clause towards resolution of issues and to clearly
define the terms of agreement. Unresolved issues has been highlighted for taking up in
the CNC
 CNC headed by JS (Aero) was formed by MoD in March 2012.
 CNC set up Expert Group of Cost Analysts in Oct 2012 to verify the cost details, to collect
breakup of costs and to make recommendations.
 Four rounds (Oct 2012, Nov 2012, Jan 2013 and March 2013) of bilateral discussions held
between expert group & the Russian side.
47
 After submission of report by Expert Group, four rounds of bilateral negotiations (July,
2013, Oct. 2013, Feb. 2014, March 2014) were held by the CNC. Next bilateral CNC is
planned during April, 2014.
 Recently, IAF has voiced certain concerns on the technical capabilities and features of the
PMF aircraft. These issues have been formally taken up with the Russian side through the
CNC. During the recent bilateral CNC meeting in March 2014, 19 clarifications provided by
Russian side as against the 27 concerns/points raised by IAF. Balance clarifications are to
be provided by Russian side.
 In view of the complexity of the project and the extent of cost negotiations involved, it is
estimated that the process of finalization of the R&D Contract will take at least 3-4 months
provided the technical issues are resolved to the satisfaction of the Indian Side
 Subsequently the approval will be taken for going to R&D contract

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 31 Aug 2015 11:07

Karan , Can you link the report

Karan M wrote:During the PD stage, the basic technical configuration of the FGFA has been completed
jointly by Indian team led by HAL and Sukhoi Design Bureau of Russia. An elaborate set of
design documentation has been delivered to HAL in two stages during the PD stage. From
the Indian side, in addition to HAL, the following agencies had participated during PD stage.
 DARE, DRDO: Low & High Band Jammers, Dual Colour IR Missile Approach Warning
System, Laser Warning Receiver, modules of the Mission Computer
 LRDE, DRDO: Side AESA Arrays, ISAR Algorithm for the main Radar
 ADE, DRDO: Second Flight Control Computer
 BDL: CMDS
 System Control: Weapon Bay Door Control System


So it seems there will be 2 Flight Control computers or MC/FCC one Russian one India , this is similar to MKI aircraft

Also gives some idea on Indian content of PMF

Added Later: Found it page 45

http://164.100.47.134/lsscommittee/Defe ... nce_10.pdf
Last edited by Austin on 31 Aug 2015 11:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 31 Aug 2015 11:14

There is nothing else of interest in it but this..
Its interesting to see the stuff proposed. The Mission computer/FBW HW is all very well but unless we get source code its merely limited input.
LRDEs input is interesting, but again, our involvement with the main FCR should be more, especially high power TRMs and software.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 31 Aug 2015 11:26

Its shameful given amount of experience in indian pvt sector, l&t etc, so little was negotiated for indian input. IAF was right to censure HAL.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Singha » 31 Aug 2015 11:50

isnt china also developing a gigantic radar picket UAV, I recall seeing a photo a while back.
http://www.popsci.com/closer-look-china ... agle-drone

the twin-boom fuselage means a high fuel fraction

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 31 Aug 2015 13:48

What a strange looking drone , the wings look slightly forward swept , designed for persistence and high altitude.

Scroll Below , Pictures of PAK-FA Main Array and Cheek Array at MAKS

http://bastion-karpenko.ru/t-50/

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 02 Sep 2015 15:32


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 04 Sep 2015 12:00

MAKS 2015: KTRV showcases Kh-59MK2 aircraft guided missile upgrades
Among the most significant weapons to be exhibited at MAKS 2015 was an updated version of the Kh-59 stand-off land attack missile, called the Kh-59MK2.

Developed by the Raduga Design Bureau, part of Russia's Tactical Missiles Corporation (KTRV), the new variant - about to enter flight testing - has been configured to fit in the internal weapons bay of the Sukhoi PAK FA (T-50) fighter aircraft. Additionally, the body of the missile has been optimised for a reduced radar cross section (RCS).

The new, stealthy Kh-59MK2 is 4.2 m long, has a wingspan of 2.5 m, and a 0.4x0.4 m cross section with its wings and fins folded. Although currently designated as part of the Kh-59 family, it is expected to receive an entirely new designation in the future.

As for the original Kh-59, the missile is intended to strike a variety of fixed ground targets, including targets with low radar, infrared (IR), and optical background contrast, known position co-ordinates, and target area information features. Powered by a Saturn 37-04 bypass turbojet (or a 50MT turbojet for export), the modernised Kh-59MK2 has an acknowledged range of 290 km. It incorporates an INS and a satellite guidance system (GPS and GLONASS) that can provide mid-course guidance, and an electro-optical (EO) terminal guidance system that gives a circular error probable of 3 m in either day or night operations. One or more missions can be loaded into that system to provide optional guidance on different targets.


The missile can fly as low as 50 m over the ground, with warhead options including a 310 kg penetrator or submunitions.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby srai » 04 Sep 2015 19:45

^^^

From the looks of it Kh-59MK2 is a completely different missile than its predecessor Kh-59. We can expect a new designation for it.

On the other note, indigenous ASMs need to be designed to fit into the internal weapon bays of FGFA, AMCA and UCAV. Hopefully future iterations are already designed towards that.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby arun » 05 Sep 2015 07:21

X Posted from the “Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments” thread.

India’s Fighter Acquisition Troubles :

The price exacted due to such grandiose requirements and ambitiously outlined industrial offsets comes in IAF combat aircraft strength, which continues to dwindle as age, serviceability issues, and lack of concrete orders take their toll.


The obvious mismatch between security mandates and capabilities on hand amplifies the pressing need to identify future jet fighter solutions and expedite the procurement process. But instead, India’s woeful defense acquisition practices serve to impede progress toward meeting future air power requirements.


Even when the government attempts to cut through its own labyrinthine process to expedite a foreign military procurement, nothing is ever easy for defense acquisition in India.



From here:

Clicky

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Viv S » 13 Sep 2015 22:28

Let IAF test-fly fifth-generation fighter aircraft, India asks Russia

By Rajat Pandit, TNN

NEW DELHI: Ahead of PM Narendra Modi's visit to Moscow in December, India has asked Russia to allow IAF test pilots to fly its fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) to evaluate its capabilities.

"Flight-testing will help decide the way forward on the collaboration between the two countries on the FGFA. All options, ranging from an off-the-shelf purchase of 60-65 jets to joint production, are on the table," said a top defence ministry official on Friday.

The fact that India needs an FGFA, which combines stealth, super-cruise capability, super-maneuverability data fusion and multi-sensor integration on a single fighter, in the years ahead cannot be disputed.

For a country that is yet to even make its first indigenous fighter (the fourth-generation Tejas) fully-operational, the choice is limited While the FA-22 'Raptor' of the US is the world's only fully-operational FGFA as of now, the Russian Sukhoi T-50 and the American F-35 'Lightning-II' Joint Strike Fighter are the ones undergoing final developmental tests.

But having repeatedly rejected the FGFA overtures made by the US, India was slated to seal the project to codevelop and co-produce the Sukhoi T-50 with Russia at least three years ago. It was after all way back in 7 that the Indo-Russian in 2007 that the Indo-Russian inter-governmental agreement for the FGFA was inked. It was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010.

India, along the way , also slashed its requirement from the original 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters to just 127 single-seat jets. The overall FGFA project cost for making all the 127 fighters in India was pegged at around $25 billion.

But technical, cost and delivery timeframe wrangles have kept the final design contract -under which both sides were to chip in an initial $5.5 billion each for prototype development and infrastructure - far away from being inked till now."The off-the-shelf purchase is being considered since the final R&D contract may take more time," said the source.

A cash-starved Russia, which is now cranking up its arms sales to Pakistan much to India's discomfiture, hopes Modi's visit will break the logjam on the FGFA. India, in turn, wants Russia to "compress" the delivery timeframe to around 36 months from the original 94 months, as was first reported by TOI.

All this comes in the backdrop of the Modi government scrapping the deadlocked $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project with France for 126 Rafale fighters (108 of which were to be made in India) earlier this year. Instead, the Modi-Hollande summit in April decided that India would buy 36 Rafales in a direct acquisition deal with France.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 14 Sep 2015 01:50

Ahead of PM Narendra Modi's visit to Moscow in December, India has asked Russia to allow IAF test pilots to fly its fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) to evaluate its capabilities.


Two months to get permission, build an evaluation and make a proposal (or decline)?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Mort Walker » 14 Sep 2015 08:29

^^^Most likely the IAF will have to pay upfront for flight testing. Which will take some time, but for the right cash $$$ amount UAC will have no problem. It may be well worth it do so.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 16 Sep 2015 04:19

Bill Sweetman comes to the same conclusions as I had posted earlier. The T-50 has a door kicker role, and the combination of EW, speed and altitude is what makes them think the rear & aft quarter stealth is not such a critical issue, which is why the circular nozzles etc will be retained as versus all up RCS reduced flat ones.

Walking the static display line at the MAKS air show in Moscow is a reunion of sorts, with aircraft designs that I used to spend a lot of time thinking about. There’s the Tupolev Tu-22M, touted by U.S. Air Force intelligence as a B-1 equivalent, which involved a well-to-the-right-of-Genghis-Khan senior officer dictating that the bomber had 20 tons more fuel than its physical size allowed. Here in the historical section is that masterpiece in welded steel, the MiG-25, that some assessed as a dogfighter. Those were two lessons in the analytical trap of “mirror imaging.”

The most widely mirror-imaged system at MAKS was the Sukhoi T-50, which far too many people still see as an F-22 analog. This idea began to look out of touch with reality two years ago, when Tactical Missiles Corp. (TMC) showed images of the big (1,400-lb.) Kh-58UShKE anti-radar missile inside the fighter’s fuselage bays. The T-50 can carry four weapons of that size internally versus two 1,000-lb.-class bombs on the F-22.

This year, TMC unveiled three new or modified T-50-size weapons: the Grom winged bomb, with or without rocket boost; the Kh-59MK2 stealth cruise missile; and a Kh-50UShKE variant with terminal infrared guidance. Nothing new was said about air-to-air missiles, and what has been shown so far indicates that the T-50’s air-combat armament comprises straightforward updates of in-service weapons.

This suggests almost conclusively that the T-50 is designed to kick the door down against surface targets (including ships) as much as to defeat fighters and threaten high-value air targets. As such, the fact there may not be a lot of T-50s around in the near future is less comforting than it might be.

Another major difference, confirmed by defense electronics conglomerate Kret (Concern Radio-Electronic Technology), is that the T-50 has [b]a full-featured active, electronic warfare system
; the philosophy behind the F-22 and F-35 was that stealth made this unnecessary. But together with the T-50’s speed and agility (and the absence of Western equivalents to Russian long-range surface-to-air missiles) it has apparently allowed the beam and rear-aspect radar cross-section specification to be relaxed.

That saves weight, and also makes it easier to use Sukhoi’s elegant thrust-vectoring system. The nozzles move only in one axis—but by separating the engines, rotating the vectoring planes inward, and blending aerodynamic and thrust-vector controls, Sukhoi obtains three-axis vectoring.

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/opini ... e-doctrine

Full featured as in, all aspect EW not just the frontal radar & ESM otherwise.

Backed up by:
http://www.findpatent.ru/patent/248/2488775.html

Integrated radar system (IRTS), composed of:

- Systems of electronic reconnaissance and electronic countermeasures (RTR / REP) 17, which provides for detection, measurement of parameters, continual threat assessment of air and ground radar-emitting targets, issuing information received to the BTSVS 33 and setting (EW) jamming both through its antenna, and through the active phased array (AESA) of the radar system (RLS)


This is a typical case of "do the optimization only where necessary" sort of stuff we find on Russian platforms versus goldplating the overall platform. A few years back remember a discussion on "The rough finish" on some Russian fighters vs their western counterparts, the Russian designer turned around and commented they had modeled the effects of drag on the rough finish, and came to the conclusion finessing it was not worth the effort as the existing thrust/drag ratio was perfectly fine & the "rough panels" had corresponding maintenance and cost benefits. Eye opening in how they approached the issue. Same with PGMs vs "dumb iron bombs", having a highly accurate nav attack system with automated modes & larger tonnage of cheap iron bombs obviated the need for expensive PGMs in several cases. Looks like that approach is well and alive.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby abhik » 16 Sep 2015 08:46

Quite clearly the IAF has not got the opportunity to really evaluate the PAK-FK. How do we know it's not a complete leamon?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 16 Sep 2015 12:46

Karan M wrote:Backed up by:
http://www.findpatent.ru/patent/248/2488775.html

Integrated radar system (IRTS), composed of:

- Systems of electronic reconnaissance and electronic countermeasures (RTR / REP) 17, which provides for detection, measurement of parameters, continual threat assessment of air and ground radar-emitting targets, issuing information received to the BTSVS 33 and setting (EW) jamming both through its antenna, and through the active phased array (AESA) of the radar system (RLS)


Regarding rear end business this is a better pic of how this look from rear

Image

Jo from Keypubs has posted some info on engine RCS test , Since cross posting is not allowed I will just post it here

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1412270392
http://www.itae.ru/staff/page_units/Lab ... %B2%29.pdf

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 16 Sep 2015 12:48

Full T-50 pilot systems. K-36D5 seat, new helmet with display and OBOGS system ( via keypubs/maks )

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/573/2125 ... c166_o.jpg

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 16 Sep 2015 12:53

Cut Out of one of Internal Weapon of PAK-FA , X-59Mk2

http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/401381/56671Z ... 095956.jpg

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby srai » 17 Sep 2015 03:24

Austin wrote:Cut Out of one of Internal Weapon of PAK-FA , X-59Mk2

http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/401381/56671Z ... 095956.jpg


Hopefully Nirbhay-M is in the works with a reduced length of around 4.2m (from 6m) to fit into internal bays of FGFA and AMCA. Same for future iteration of Brahmos-M2; it too should reduce its length further from 5m to around 4.2m to allow for internal carriage. Some range sacrificed for stealthy delivery closer to the target.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 17 Sep 2015 06:40

abhik wrote:Quite clearly the IAF has not got the opportunity to really evaluate the PAK-FK. How do we know it's not a complete leamon?


Common sense, having used the Su-30 MKI.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JTull » 17 Sep 2015 18:00

abhik wrote:Quite clearly the IAF has not got the opportunity to really evaluate the PAK-FK. How do we know it's not a complete leamon?


Can you define what constitutes a lemon in this context?

Otherwise, we could be tempted to question if you're not a complete lemon?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 18 Sep 2015 19:21

Don't know if this was posted earlier.
http://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/20 ... -50_397177
India wants a ride on the T-50
16 September 2015 Vzglyad

India’s Air Force has sought an opportunity from Russia to check out the fifth generation PAK FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation), also known as the T-50, in flight.

Related
•Supersonic BrahMos and T-50 PAK FA: Other Indo-Russian collaboration
•FGFA story: Tale of an aircraft
The joint FGFA project will give a technological boost to India’s capabilities in aircraft designing, developing and production.

“Prior to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s December visit to Moscow, we would like Russia to allow Indian Air Force test pilots the opportunity to test the fifth generation PAK FA in flight. We are now examining all options for collaborating in this project – from joint production to direct purchase of 60-65 airplanes from Russia. To make a final decision we would like to know its flying and technical characteristics in practice,” a source from the Indian Ministry of Defence (MOD) told the Economic Times, reports TASS.

The source also commented that “India, without a doubt, needs a fifth generation fighter that combines all modern technologies and improvements such as stealth, high maneuverability, speed, and also reserve characteristics “for the future”.

According to the MOD representative, an alternative to the Russian T-50 could be the American F-35, which is also undergoing final tests. “However, India has often ignored hints from the USA regarding the possible delivery of this aircraft”, the representative said.

In 2007 Russia and India concluded an inter-governmental agreement for joint production of the T-50. In December 2010, India earmarked $295 million for the project.

“However, three years ago, India slowed down the project, reducing its original order for 166 single-seater and 48 two-seater fighters to 127 single-seater PAK FAs,” said the military official. However, the total cost of the PAK FA for India is about $25 billion for supply of all 127 aircraft”.

пустым не оставлять!!
FGFA story: Tale of an aircraft

“The agreement on the technical details, costs and supply schedule for the fighters might further delay the signing of a final contract for the joint production of the PAK FA, by which both parties must provide $5.5 billion” he said. “For this reason, India is examining the possibility of purchasing ready-made fighters from Russia in order to receive them more quickly”.

The Indian MOD commented that it had high hopes that the PM’s visit to Moscow would stimulate talks on the PAK FA in the interests of both countries. “Russia will receive a serious financial windfall, and India expects that should a direct purchase be made of fifth generation fighters, then it would be possible to reduce the initial time of 94 months to 36 months, which is critically important for the country’s air force, which is starved of technical aviation”, commented the military expert.

India said on August 12, it might purchase three squadrons of ready Russian fifth generation T-50 fighters, instead of constructing 127 similar aircraft with Russia. India does intend to build its own fifth generation fighter.

First published in Russian by Vzglyad.


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