Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Dennis
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Dennis » 12 Jun 2018 22:09

Kakarat wrote:It seems No 15 Flying Lances have converted to Su-30MKI

Image
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Indian-Air-For ... SwRsJaxcMu


That looks like a Gripen instead of a Sukhoi on the patch!

In any case IIRC, Sq 15 and 17 were known to be converting to Su-30MKI in 2013 (AeroIndia 2013).

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby putnanja » 14 Jun 2018 17:56

Indian Air Force Doesn’t Plan to Add More Sukhoi 30 MKI in its Inventory

Sources of government told Mail Today, “The Russians along with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which assembles the planes in India, have offered to sell 40 more of these planes to the Air Force but the Air Force does not seem to be very keen on acquiring them due to the heavy cost of maintanence which makes them very expensive to manage in the long run.”

...
Sukhoi-30 costs about one-third of French Rafale 36, as per claims made by the vendor, of which will be added to force in 2019. The sources said that the maintenance of Russian aircraft costs three times more than existing western origin plane.


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 14 Jun 2018 18:40

putnanja wrote:Indian Air Force Doesn’t Plan to Add More Sukhoi 30 MKI in its Inventory

Sources of government told Mail Today, “The Russians along with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which assembles the planes in India, have offered to sell 40 more of these planes to the Air Force but the Air Force does not seem to be very keen on acquiring them due to the heavy cost of maintanence which makes them very expensive to manage in the long run.”

...
Sukhoi-30 costs about one-third of French Rafale 36, as per claims made by the vendor, of which will be added to force in 2019. The sources said that the maintenance of Russian aircraft costs three times more than existing western origin plane.



Conflicted about this one. I feel that even if it were more costly to maintain then it would be worth to the nation’s MIC to buy more. And I despise Russian gear in general.

But it really depends on how much of the parts are Indian. HAL said 70% of the MKI is Indian but are the parts most used during maintenance Indian? If we are buying mainly Russian components or subcomponents for replacement (like parts for the engine) during the aircraft’s lifetime then maybe the IAF is right in going for western.

But if those replaceable parts are mainly Indian, the GOI should decide that the MIC is more critical for the nation going forward.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 14 Jun 2018 19:55

Let's get the figs.3 times maintenance costs cannot remotely come close to 3 times capital cost! The interest on even one MKI should take care of annual maintenance costs. To imagine that Rafale spates and maintenance costs less than that of an MKI per annum is hugely lower is open to examination .One would imagine yhat the more of a type you havd the lesser the costs are!

However, the MKI is a two-pilot bird and as I've been saying the most cosy-effective solution other than LCAs which aren't being built in enough numbers are more MIG-29UGs or even 35s.The engind is being manufactured here and all the 29 upgrades was being done at home.So supporting the bird should be easy.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Bart S » 14 Jun 2018 20:11

Philip wrote:Let's get the figs.3 times maintenance costs cannot remotely come close to 3 times capital cost! The interest on even one MKI should take care of annual maintenance costs. To imagine that Rafale spates and maintenance costs less than that of an MKI per annum is hugely lower is open to examination .One would imagine yhat the more of a type you havd the lesser the costs are!



LOL...

I wonder if you would follow in your personal life, when your life was on the line, your advice to the IAF.

Would you buy a leaky bucket for your home at half the cost of one that is not going to leak?
If you were an OLA/Uber driver, would you buy a Toyota Etios at 9 lakh or a used Ambassador at 3 lakh?
The next time you fly to Europe, would you prefer to do so on a Lufthansa Boeing 787 or on Kim Jong Un's cheap and trusty old Soviet IL-62?

I suspect you know the answer, but in your eagerness to push all things Russian (even if it means bashing Indian projects and institutions) you keep repeating this bizarre logic (apart from deliberately repeating cost numbers that you know are inaccurate) . The IAF like any professional organization (or individual; e.g an athlete) is going to go with the gear that gives them the most confidence and that they trust the most - otherwise they won't be in business. Myopic bean counting alone while ignoring other aspects doesn't really make sense.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 14 Jun 2018 20:44



Great to quote unnamed sources and then come with some magical figure of 3 times maintenance cost right from thin air !

And Parrikar is on record of availability more than 65 % compared to 50 % what the author claims to be

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 14 Jun 2018 23:52

Forces both in an out of IAF are colluding to purchase new stuff. I am deeply disappointed in my off line conversations with my unnamed sources.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 15 Jun 2018 02:37

Philip wrote:The engind is being manufactured here and all the 29 upgrades was being done at home.So supporting the bird should be easy.

Is that true we are manufacturing the engine here for Su-30 ? i.e from Raw materials

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Jun 2018 04:00

Austin wrote:
chola wrote:


Great to quote unnamed sources and then come with some magical figure of 3 times maintenance cost right from thin air !

And Parrikar is on record of availability more than 65 % compared to 50 % what the author claims to be

+1. And people will use such "facts and figures" to make arguments against authentic sources like that of the varthaman committee :shock:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kashi » 15 Jun 2018 05:09

Austin wrote:
chola wrote:


Great to quote unnamed sources and then come with some magical figure of 3 times maintenance cost right from thin air !

And Parrikar is on record of availability more than 65 % compared to 50 % what the author claims to be


First of all, Parrikar was on record saying that Su-30 availability had risen to 60% NOT 65%

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... r-4471113/

“The biggest problem I faced was after sales service. Defence PSUs considered after sales service as an expense and not an investment. Virtually convincing them in setting up a after-sales-service unit at various Army locations, took us almost a year. Finally when the board agree and we set up the unit. Today I am happy to say that Su-30 has already achieved around 60 per cent of serviceability and the helicopter fleet is more than 65 per cent. That is an achievement simply by investing around Rs 400 crore,” he said.


And yes, not long agao Su-30 MKI indeed have very low serviceability- straight from Parrikar himself

When I became Raksha Mantri, I realised that the Su-30 (Sukois), the main fighter of Indian Air Force has a serviceability of 46 per cent. .. The minimum international standards one expects is about 70-75 per cent. Sometimes you can even achieve 80 per cent-plus. Because making one fighter available more saves you the cost of buying a new fighter (aircraft). You have 300 fighters and only 150 or 140 are capable of taking on the task, I think you are not good. We decided to improve this,”


So yes, situation was indeed pathetic.

It cost over and above the initial contract to the raise the availability to 60% and continued investment will be necessary to keep this figure at 60% and we will need to invest even more to raise the levels to the sweet spot of 70-75%.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Katare » 15 Jun 2018 06:43

That Rs 400 corer investment is for HAL to open up shops, IAF’s expenses would run in billions of dollars more than what Russians made us believe to sell it.

Russian deals make sense only for products that
you can’t get anywhere
you can’t afford the proper gear or
you have political compulsions.

Purely on merit, Russian products in general can’t compete with first world products; civilian or military.

Mig29k had single digit serviceability a year or so back.

Su30 MKI is a good plane, reasonably priced, awesome capabilities especially range and maneuverability and some amount of customization but it also comes with typical Russian bait and switch tactics, huge price escalations, poor after sales support, subpar serviceability, expensive to maintain, refusal to share technology that we paid for, atleast a generation + behind in sensors, radars and avionics

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 15 Jun 2018 07:42

"Su30 MKI is a good plane, ...atleast a generation + behind in sensors, radars and avionics"

I'd say that generation behind needs to be qualified. The Bars radar for instance may not be an AESA, but will easily outperform most radars in service worldwide & easily match some 1st gen AESAs. Follow on variants may match even advanced AESAs.
Same way a S-400, on paper, may not be as advanced as (say) a SAMP-T or Barak, but in reality it is a very potent system. The Russian systems may weigh more, will be larger & "cruder" but in terms of performance they often match or even exceed their western counterparts in some way.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Katare » 15 Jun 2018 08:57

That is a fair assessment, IAF would not buy so many if it wasn’t a potent aircraft.

Just checked IL76 and Il 78 serviceability rates-
Between 2011 and 2016
Il 76 - 38%
Il 78 - 49%

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby habal » 15 Jun 2018 09:59

what are Russian service rates in Syrian deployment.

They have flown gagan shakti level of sorties from their Su-25/30/34/35 for almost 3 years now. That tells one that problem is not so much in the platforms but spares availability in time. Since russians are manning the show in syria and their prestige is on the line all spares are available all the time. So India must go Chinese route with Russia and demand blueprint for all serviceable spares and 'make in India' or else no deal.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2018 10:10

MKI max Servicibility rate is at 68 % per hal during Aero India press conf

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/aero-india-hal-plane-maker-960812-2017-02-15

SERVICEABILITY: Every HAL supplied platform has 65 per cent serviceability and Sukhoi 30 MKI maximum serviceability of 68 per cent. We have given a proposal to MoD to become Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) for Sukhoi in India.


HAL Has signed an Agreement on October 2017 for Spares and Maintenance worth $616 million to improve both

HAL To Invest Up To US$615 Million For Indian Sukhoi Spares

“Availability of Sukhoi fighter aircraft is more important. The existing system is that the customer (IAF in this case) places an order on HAL which we either buy or manufacture and then supply it. It is not an efficient way of doing things. Now, if we can order in bulk and store it, we get a bulk discount too. We are looking at an initial investment of Rs 2,000 crore to Rs 4,000 crore as an initial investment depending on what one stocks,” T. Suvarna Raju, chairman and managing director


HAL has also offered IAF PBL type arrangement for guranteed uptimes but IAF is worried that boy at BRD will be left without work


HAL has offered the IAF “Performance Based Logistics” (PBL) for the Su-30MKI fleet --- a solution common in advanced western air forces. PBL would bind HAL to maintain the Su-30MKI, providing the IAF a specified serviceability rate --- calculated in flight hours, or as a percentage of the total aircraft fleet --- in exchange for an annual service charge.

Besides saving maintenance costs for the IAF, PBL has been found to encourage quality manufacture, since manufacturers know they will be responsible for keeping the aircraft serviceable through its operational life.

MoD officials say the IAF dislikes the PBL model, because outsourcing maintenance to HAL threatens a large maintenance empire built around “base repair depots”, manned by IAF personnel. In 2008-09, the IAF rejected HAL’s proposal for a PBL contract for maintaining the Hawk advanced jet trainer.
Last edited by Austin on 15 Jun 2018 10:20, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2018 10:12

Katare wrote:That is a fair assessment, IAF would not buy so many if it wasn’t a potent aircraft.

Just checked IL76 and Il 78 serviceability rates-
Between 2011 and 2016
Il 76 - 38%
Il 78 - 49%


The CAG reports also states that HAL offered to HAL PBL type arrangement to improve serviceability but IAF did not reply , guess the same reason why it rejected Hawk and MKI PBL , its own empire gets threatened

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2018 10:19

habal wrote:what are Russian service rates in Syrian deployment.

They have flown gagan shakti level of sorties from their Su-25/30/34/35 for almost 3 years now. That tells one that problem is not so much in the platforms but spares availability in time. Since russians are manning the show in syria and their prestige is on the line all spares are available all the time. So India must go Chinese route with Russia and demand blueprint for all serviceable spares and 'make in India' or else no deal.


The general servicibility of Russian Fighter in Syrian campaigne is High , from Memory from MOD statement it is above 80 %

Su-35 has servicivility of above 80 % per Russian MOD http://tass.com/defense/989044

"Many thanks to our plant workers who always responded to our requests, there was a maintenance team operating on a steady basis in Hmeymim, so Su-35 planes’ serviceability was always above 80%," Borisov explained.


But the over all fighter strength of RuAF in Sryia involving all types of fighter does not exceed more than 45-50 but due to high servicibility they maintain a very high sortie rates.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kashi » 15 Jun 2018 11:06

There's a difference between serviceability for one's own systems and those of the customers.

It's immaterial how serviceable Roosi planes are, if our fleet is languishing at 46% availability.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2018 11:17

Who says our over all fleet is langushing at 46 % ? And Servicibility costs money in terms of OPEX if IAF over all fleet achieves even 70 % servicibility then it will go bankrupt maintaining such a huge fleet at high operational levels

Servicibility is bumped up during cricitical moments like Gagan Shakti involving more than 1000 types of IAF aircraft servicibility was exteremely high , same goes during Kargil war ....Many spares weapons etc are only kept as war time reserves.

Even the German Airforce only 10 of the 128 Eurofighter was available for operational combat according to report published lat month

https://www.businessinsider.in/Germany- ... 036141.cms

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kashi » 15 Jun 2018 12:09

Austin wrote:Who says our over all fleet is langushing at 46 % ?


No less than our own former Raksha Mantri had this to say

When I became Raksha Mantri, I realised that the Su-30 (Sukois), the main fighter of Indian Air Force has a serviceability of 46 per cent. ..


and also this

“.. You have 300 fighters and only 150 or 140 are capable of taking on the task, I think you are not good. We decided to improve this,”


And this was almost two decades after inducting the platform.

We had to spend a lot of money to raise the availability rates.

I give a damn about Eurofighter availability rates. I am only concerned about the fleet availability of IAF's combat jets and till recently Su-30 MKI fared very poorly on that account.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2018 12:15

The UPA government neglected all aspect of Defence procurment and maintenance and same goes for indiginous program like LCA , its only when Parrikar came in the picture that he fixed these and other issues.

It was more about Parrikars understanding of the problem and his willingness to fix was the key.

Without spending money you cant have high availability we are spending through our Nose via PBL and for French Rafale to maintain availability even for a small fleet of aircraft.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby V_Raman » 15 Jun 2018 13:38

How is this the responsibility of the Minister or the ministry? Services come up with the plan on how to run the service and get budget allocations approved correct?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chetak » 15 Jun 2018 16:04

Austin wrote:The UPA government neglected all aspect of Defence procurment and maintenance and same goes for indiginous program like LCA , its only when Parrikar came in the picture that he fixed these and other issues.

It was more about Parrikars understanding of the problem and his willingness to fix was the key.

Without spending money you cant have high availability we are spending through our Nose via PBL and for French Rafale to maintain availability even for a small fleet of aircraft.


These figures are not credible.

Are weapons' platform serviceability figures so casually bandied about on TV interviews and so readily spoken about in public fora??

Even CAG figures come with so many qualified and mostly unfathomable "if" and "but" preconditions, usually lost in the fine print, buried so deep in some unreadable annexures that their actual meaning is lost when just headline figures are being quoted by the unwashed abduls.

serviceability figures for simple airworthiness of the platform and serviceability figures for specific role capabilities will vary tremendously.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Katare » 15 Jun 2018 22:43

There is no ifs and buts in CAG reports only hard data provided by forces to it and yes it is available in open source for all to discuss.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Katare » 15 Jun 2018 22:46

V_Raman wrote:How is this the responsibility of the Minister or the ministry? Services come up with the plan on how to run the service and get budget allocations approved correct?


It is simple! Russians lie, bait and switch tactics, about maintenance cost and spare consumption to get tthe deal and than milk us as they please.

So IAF plans and puts a support system as per the Russian data and later it finds out that what it has created and budgeted for maintenance is grossly insufficient.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Katare » 15 Jun 2018 22:55

Austin wrote:
habal wrote:what are Russian service rates in Syrian deployment.

They have flown gagan shakti level of sorties from their Su-25/30/34/35 for almost 3 years now. That tells one that problem is not so much in the platforms but spares availability in time. Since russians are manning the show in syria and their prestige is on the line all spares are available all the time. So India must go Chinese route with Russia and demand blueprint for all serviceable spares and 'make in India' or else no deal.


The general servicibility of Russian Fighter in Syrian campaigne is High , from Memory from MOD statement it is above 80 %

Su-35 has servicivility of above 80 % per Russian MOD http://tass.com/defense/989044

"Many thanks to our plant workers who always responded to our requests, there was a maintenance team operating on a steady basis in Hmeymim, so Su-35 planes’ serviceability was always above 80%," Borisov explained.


But the over all fighter strength of RuAF in Sryia involving all types of fighter does not exceed more than 45-50 but due to high servicibility they maintain a very high sortie rates.


What do you expect Russians to say about their own product? Anyhow supporting two squadrons of fairly new planes during a showcase campaign is different than supporting a fleet consisting of 100s of planes of new to 30+ years old.

Gagan shakti data only shows what can be done for three days using a part of the fleet, if spares are stocked and all efforts are put into it. Wars can go on far longer and can start without giving you months to plan for creating logistics and supporting infra. If a war lasts two to four weeks the real serviceability would show up. IAF would have a lot of Russian hanger queens.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Indranil » 16 Jun 2018 05:10

It is a myth that Russian weapons are more maintenance prone than western ware. Spend a billion, and you will have much more than 6 Russian attack helis in the air. Spend 10 billion and you will have many more than 36 Su-30s in the air.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby fanne » 16 Jun 2018 18:47

That s true for 50 odd mirage 2000 compared to 75 morning g 29, mirage 2000 maintainance budget was three times of that of mig 29. Noon wonder m2000 had such a high rate.
Sadly it is more a reflection on us than western vs Russian equipment. Somehow we could not find 600 carores (less than 100 million usd) to stockpile su30mki spares, when we did the uptime went from 40% to 60%

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 21 Jun 2018 20:12

@strategic_front
Follow Follow @strategic_front
More
The #MakeInIndia Dual Colour Missile Approach Warning System (DCMAWS) developed by #DRDO

Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby titash » 28 Jun 2018 09:09

Another Sukhoi crash - how many does that make it? 4 or 5 I think. At least the pilot and WSO ejected in time.

http://defencebuzz.org/2018/06/sukhoi-su-30mki-being-flight-tested-crashes-near-nashik-pilots-ejected-safely-061c17df-861f-4be3-8df4-1d68e5687315.html

Sukhoi Su-30mki Being Flight Tested Crashes Near Nashik, Pilots Ejected Safely
A top official involved with the aircraft production, told PTI that the Sukhoi which crashed today, was the first of the batch produced at the Aircraft Manufacturing Division at HAL Nashik this year...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Jun 2018 10:43

As reported in the media, it makes the total Sukhai crashes as 8.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 28 Jun 2018 21:18

titash wrote:Another Sukhoi crash - how many does that make it? 4 or 5 I think. At least the pilot and WSO ejected in time.

http://defencebuzz.org/2018/06/sukhoi-su-30mki-being-flight-tested-crashes-near-nashik-pilots-ejected-safely-061c17df-861f-4be3-8df4-1d68e5687315.html

Sukhoi Su-30mki Being Flight Tested Crashes Near Nashik, Pilots Ejected Safely
A top official involved with the aircraft production, told PTI that the Sukhoi which crashed today, was the first of the batch produced at the Aircraft Manufacturing Division at HAL Nashik this year...



Its a post production check out flight crash.
Since it a first of a new batch so it will have investigation.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Prithwiraj » 29 Jun 2018 02:34

Aditya_V wrote:As reported in the media, it makes the total Sukhai crashes as 8.


Almost half a Sq. --- should we plan for Attrition replacement - or is it always a moving goal-post

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 29 Jun 2018 10:45

ramana wrote:
titash wrote:Another Sukhoi crash - how many does that make it? 4 or 5 I think. At least the pilot and WSO ejected in time.

http://defencebuzz.org/2018/06/sukhoi-su-30mki-being-flight-tested-crashes-near-nashik-pilots-ejected-safely-061c17df-861f-4be3-8df4-1d68e5687315.html

Sukhoi Su-30mki Being Flight Tested Crashes Near Nashik, Pilots Ejected Safely
A top official involved with the aircraft production, told PTI that the Sukhoi which crashed today, was the first of the batch produced at the Aircraft Manufacturing Division at HAL Nashik this year...



Its a post production check out flight crash.
Since it a first of a new batch so it will have investigation.


I am told the Su have DFDR and we have the pilot too so should be able to double quick on the investigation.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chetak » 29 Jun 2018 10:55

Prithwiraj wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:As reported in the media, it makes the total Sukhai crashes as 8.


Almost half a Sq. --- should we plan for Attrition replacement - or is it always a moving goal-post


These are high performance, high risk machines and not a sedate family sedan out for a cosy sunday drive.

Attrition is ALWAYS a factor.

That said,

The total loss of a twin engine machine is disturbing as is the frequency of such losses.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 29 Jun 2018 12:01

chetak wrote:The total loss of a twin engine machine is disturbing as is the frequency of such losses.


There used to be a saying among pilots of some types of fighter planes - 'The second engine just gets you to the crash site faster'

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chetak » 29 Jun 2018 12:11

Manish_P wrote:
chetak wrote:The total loss of a twin engine machine is disturbing as is the frequency of such losses.


There used to be a saying among pilots of some types of fighter planes - 'The second engine just gets you to the crash site faster'


Good one. :)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 29 Jun 2018 15:11

Unless both engines fail!!!!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 30 Jun 2018 10:55

V.unusual for an MKI to crash during its delivery trials.One can't ever remember that happening before.Could've been a bird strike.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Bala Vignesh » 01 Jul 2018 14:16

Could have been a software bug too for all we know. There is precedent for that!! So writing a clean chit for the bird is a little too early, I believe.


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