Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 16 Apr 2021 02:40

YashG wrote:I think only MKI can do this. Not even MKM can do this. Also If Jets can carry other types also, in a wartime - logistics would be simpler.

Because India had insisted on the MKI being customized for India. They can do this with Russia. Good luck doing this with Amreeka.

The MKI - for all her initial shortcomings - has proven to be a boon for the IAF. Customizable to take in a variety of weaponry of non-Russian origin (Astra, MICA, ASRAAM, etc). Also, when the Russians charged an arm and a leg for BrahMos integration, India went solo and did it on her own.

The Super Sukhoi upgrade will make the Rambha truly a force to reckon with.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby maitya » 16 Apr 2021 10:36

^^ Admiral, no miracle or anything, thanks to Project Vetrivale, we have not only the MCs but also the Radar Computers (for Bars) indigenously designed and developed in the late 90s (which were then continuously upgraded and variants of which were also used in other platforms like MiG-27, Jaguar, LCA etc).
After that, as long as the missile manufacturers are willing to share the datalink details, it shouldn't be too much of an issue to integrate etc.

Yes, mother Russia did allow the Bars RCs (and MCs) to indigenized, which obviously neither the Uncle (moot point as we don't have any of Uncle's fighter platform in service etc) nor the French would allow us anywhere close to it.
e.g. good luck integrating R-77 (ok ok RVV-SD) with Rafale, the new super-shiny herrow, in current service for example etc.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Apr 2021 11:52

maitya wrote:Yes, mother Russia did allow the Bars RCs (and MCs) to indigenized, which obviously neither the Uncle (moot point as we don't have any of Uncle's fighter platform in service etc) nor the French would allow us anywhere close to it.
e.g. good luck integrating R-77 (ok ok RVV-SD) with Rafale, the new super-shiny herrow, in current service for example etc.

This is an important point, and note that the BARS was their very best - based on the zaslon. In the 90s it was absolutely top of the line barring none. I believe that there was a possibility of getting similar in depth access to the AL-31FP turbofan but for whatever reason, it was not pursued.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 16 Apr 2021 20:11

maitya wrote:^^^Admiral, no miracle or anything, thanks to Project Vetrivale, we have not only the MCs but also the Radar Computers (for Bars) indigenously designed and developed in the late 90s (which were then continuously upgraded and variants of which were also used in other platforms like MiG-27, Jaguar, LCA etc).

Yes that is the name. For the life of me, I could not remember that term. Thanks.

maitya wrote:After that, as long as the missile manufacturers are willing to share the datalink details, it shouldn't be too much of an issue to integrate etc.

True. We are doing this with the Rambha and we did it with the Mirage 2000 (armed with R-73). MBDA put their foot down for Meteor integration with the Elta AESA. They will likely change their tune when Uttam AESA comes with Astra Mk2.

maitya wrote:Yes, mother Russia did allow the Bars RCs (and MCs) to indigenized, which obviously neither the Uncle (moot point as we don't have any of Uncle's fighter platform in service etc) nor the French would allow us anywhere close to it.
e.g. good luck integrating R-77 (ok ok RVV-SD) with Rafale, the new super-shiny herrow, in current service for example etc.

I don't believe the R-77 offers any advantage over the Meteor. What would be interesting to see if Thales allows Astra Mk2 integration - when it arrives - aboard the Rafale. The pessimist in me believes that MBDA will say no to Astra Mk2 for Rafale.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby YashG » 16 Apr 2021 22:37

Yes, Very likely they will say no for astra mk2 on rafale.

Otoh su30mki was signed when russian def industry was in tatters in 90s. They wanted money urgently. Later oil boom came, Russia got better.

Today post oil boom they are again at the same place, will be curious to see if india can get good deals again and what is that russia still has to offer to india.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Sumeet » 17 Apr 2021 01:06

It all depends on what line of orders France will have from us. General expectation is that they will say no to Astra Mk2 (because mk2 means no MICA NG orders from us) and Astra Mk2 will also lead to Astra SFDR down the road (which will mean no to Future Meteor variants).

If this Astra series become popular, other Rafale customers might also want it. It's very easy to beat France on price. Most countries including US can produce weapons of equal or greater quality compared to France at significantly lesser price.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 17 Apr 2021 01:45

Astra integration on Rafale is not a huge need. The Rafale fleet is quite small and it should be easy to maintain enough MICA and Meteor stocks for it. The case of the MKI is very different because of the sheer size of the fleet. The more variety of weapons it is integrated with the better will be to manage logistics and plan sorties during wartime.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 17 Apr 2021 02:55

Must read article. Apologies if it was posted earlier.

Time IAF Upgraded its Largest Combat Fleet
https://idsa.in/idsacomments/iaf-upgrad ... rma-300920
30 Sept 2020

By Group Captain Anurag Sharma (retd).

The Rafale has definitely added a punch to the IAF’s firepower and India’s adversaries will surely be taking notes. However, the induction of just 36 Rafale is not the panacea to all our woes. The Su-30MKI, IAF’s largest fighter fleet, will continue to have a vital role to play, at least for the next two decades, in any future conflict. The upgradation programme for the Sukhoi that has been under consideration for many years, and perhaps already delayed a little too long, needs to be expedited. Any further delays come only at the cost of the IAF’s war-waging capabilities, and the developing threat scenario in India’s sphere of interest and influence no longer allows the liberty of time.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby krishna_krishna » 17 Apr 2021 03:47

YashG wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The beauty of desi jugaad - mating multiple systems (in this case Russian & French) for optimal performance.

Cannot be done on American platforms due to political reasons.


I think only MKI can do this. Not even MKM can do this. Also If Jets can carry other types also, in a wartime - logistics would be simpler.


We learned our lessons hard way starting from MKI start up Mission computer is indian and that controls major I/O functions, next in line was mirage upgrade that also uses desi MC and same now for Mig 29 upgrade.

This desi jugaad is amazing in terms or weaponry but needs lot of fine tuning at the EW , RWS and other sensors. Abhi's plane parts were shown with full chaff load means that chaff's did not get deployed that points to issues in that plane integration.

Going forward it would be much easier once we mate Astra, derby and MICA to be able to be used across platforms. Porkies won't know what will be launched their way going by the type of aircraft they see on their radar it will be mithai ready by IAF pilots to displayed (in admiral terminology).

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 17 Apr 2021 04:49

Rakesh wrote:Must read article. Apologies if it was posted earlier.

Time IAF Upgraded its Largest Combat Fleet
https://idsa.in/idsacomments/iaf-upgrad ... rma-300920
30 Sept 2020

By Group Captain Anurag Sharma (retd).

The Rafale has definitely added a punch to the IAF’s firepower and India’s adversaries will surely be taking notes. However, the induction of just 36 Rafale is not the panacea to all our woes. The Su-30MKI, IAF’s largest fighter fleet, will continue to have a vital role to play, at least for the next two decades, in any future conflict. The upgradation programme for the Sukhoi that has been under consideration for many years, and perhaps already delayed a little too long, needs to be expedited. Any further delays come only at the cost of the IAF’s war-waging capabilities, and the developing threat scenario in India’s sphere of interest and influence no longer allows the liberty of time.

Why keep blaming DRDO et al when even ready made products like Elta SPJ or Russian SPJ etc didn’t pan out? Rather than waiting on one big MLU, continue to make incremental enhancements like with the one going on for SDR, new MC and additional weaponary.

Wish he had instead shed more light on features that are planned to be enhanced.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shyamd » 17 Apr 2021 05:42

Wasn’t the BV-RAAM issue for Su 30 fixed with integration of a Russian missile with longer range and better NEZ capability?

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 17 Apr 2021 06:10

shyamd wrote:Wasn’t the BV-RAAM issue for Su 30 fixed with integration of a Russian missile with longer range and better NEZ capability?

The Astra Mk1 (which has better performance than the R-77 variant - RVV-AE - we have) has been integrated with the MKI. But orders have remained limited to 248 and I am not sure how many have been delivered till now.

There were reports that the 400 R-77 order made in 2019 after the Feb 27 incident was actually for the longer ranged R-77-1 (RVV-SD) variant, but this hasn't been confirmed to my knowledge.

This Russian source mentions the new order as being for the same old RVV-AE: https://armstrade.org/includes/periodic ... tail.shtml

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby V_Raman » 17 Apr 2021 06:16

we should challenge boeing to upgrade an MKI :twisted:

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Vips » 17 Apr 2021 09:18

shyamd wrote:Wasn’t the BV-RAAM issue for Su 30 fixed with integration of a Russian missile with longer range and better NEZ capability?


you mean claimed longer range and NEZ. I hope it does not take another skirmish for us to find it otherwise.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 17 Apr 2021 09:57

Vips wrote:you mean claimed longer range and NEZ. I hope it does not take another skirmish for us to find it otherwise.

The IAF was neither outranged nor outgunned at Balakot with the R-77s. We have discussed this over and over in the MiG-21 thread. So please desist from pushing that theory.

The same Russian maal that you despise is what shot down an American-built F-16 at the same air battle. It was also a single Russian Su-30MKI - armed with R-77s - that held the fort against multiple American F-16s on that day. In both cases, the F-16s supposedly held the advantage - due to the AIM-120 AMRAAM - and should have easily defeated the IAF. The losses would have been far greater than just one MiG-21. Why did that not happen? Think!

But I am aware that you will not. These are facts that you will conveniently ignore, because it is a bitter pill to swallow and does not suit your narrative. The R-77 is not a dud and is a valuable AAM. The proof is in the pudding - the IAF is acquiring even longer versions than the ones in stock now.

But you must visit Air HQs and advise them not to. I am sure they would be enlightened to know your view. Please throw in the strategic Indo-US partnership theory as well, because that train is never late. Let us all know how that works out for you, OK?

In your disdain for Russian maal, you are throwing logic and reasoning right out the window. And while you are certainly entitled to your world view, please keep it out of BRF. This is your first and last warning.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby maitya » 18 Apr 2021 01:42

krishna_krishna wrote:
YashG wrote:
I think only MKI can do this. Not even MKM can do this. Also If Jets can carry other types also, in a wartime - logistics would be simpler.


We learned our lessons hard way starting from MKI start up Mission computer is indian and that controls major I/O functions, next in line was mirage upgrade that also uses desi MC and same now for Mig 29 upgrade.
<snip>

Just a fun trivia, but relevant to the context of this discussion - given a chance, how indigenous design and development of systems/subsystems, opens up vistas of self-reliance and in fact becomes a force-multiplier.

Evolution of desi Mission Computers - original credit is all Karan's, from his old post:
Image

Now, similarly, how much of a similar self-reliance story (in EW areana) can the much vaunted $2B-priced-ICE program spawn - zero, zilch, nada I'm afraid. :roll:

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Vips » 18 Apr 2021 04:14

Rakesh wrote:
Vips wrote:you mean claimed longer range and NEZ. I hope it does not take another skirmish for us to find it otherwise.

The IAF was neither outranged nor outgunned at Balakot with the R-77s. We have discussed this over and over in the MiG-21 thread. So please desist from pushing that theory....

Hold on Rakesh, where did i mention that the Russian missiles were duds? My comment was with respect to the Range. I mentioned claimed range for the newer version of R-77 was because the older version of R-77 were supposed to be good for range of 80-100 Kms and subsequently it emerged the effective range was 80 Kms.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 18 Apr 2021 05:36

^^^
Vips, Not so simple. All AAMs have such range profiles. Many factors at play.

Image

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 18 Apr 2021 05:50

Vips wrote:Hold on Rakesh, where did i mention that the Russian missiles were duds? My comment was with respect to the Range. I mentioned claimed range for the newer version of R-77 was because the older version of R-77 were supposed to be good for range of 80-100 Kms and subsequently it emerged the effective range was 80 Kms.

My very first sentence in my reply to you was that the IAF was NOT OUTRANGED at Balakot with the R-77. BVR combat goes beyond advertised ranges and any missile's performance is dependent on a number of factors.

A range of 80 km to 100 km for the RVV-AE - when viewed in isolation - means nothing. After dissecting every facet of the air battle on Feb 27 - from a number of OSINT sources and covered in minute detail in the MiG-21 thread - it has been ascertained that the IAF was not outranged. I am not going to rehash the air battle, because it has been covered in detail in that thread. Now the newer version being acquired by the IAF - the RVV-SD with a range of 110 km - while having a longer range vis-à-vis the RVV-AE, again when viewed in isolation, has little utility. NaPakis claim that since JF-17 will soon have the PL-15, all IAF Rafales will be shot down because PL-15 has a range of 350 km, while Meteor has a range of only 150 km. Only a fool will believe that tripe.

This foolishness was amply proven by the PAF at Balakot on Feb 27 and confirmed by Air Marshal SBP Sinha (retd) in an interview to Nitin Gokhale. Air Marshal Sinha served as the AOC-in-C of the Central Air Command, Indian Air Force and is a former fighter pilot and qualified on the Su-30MKI. He was even the base commander at one of the Rambha air bases in India. I am posting the youtube link to that video for you to see - in this post. If you have not seen it, please see it ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEX-Uu_KJc

And like I mentioned in my earlier reply, since the AIM-120C5 (< 105 km) has a longer range than the RVV-AE (80 km to 100 km)...the PAF should have had a field day against the IAF interceptors. Apart from the MiG-21 shoot down, the Su-30MKI pair (Avenger 1 and 2), the Mirage 2000 pair and Wing Commander Varthaman's wingman should have all been shot down. Why did that not happen? Please see below from Group Captain HV Thakur (retd), former Jaguar pilot in the Indian Air Force and presently HAL test pilot.

================================================

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 49856?s=20 ---> Abstract Example - Think About It. Police gun range = 100 meters, but thief's gun range = 120 meters. Will this be reason enough for the thief to be allowed to escape? No. There's all kinds of tactics. For policing, as also, for air combat.

================================================

How did Wing Commander Varthaman shoot down a F-16 with a R-73 close combat missile, when the F-16 in question was armed with AIM-120C5 AMRAAMs? The AIM-120 has a significantly longer range vis-à-vis the R-73. Its called tactics as Group Captain HV Thakur stated in his tweet above. If the IAF felt that the R-77 was really a dud (i.e. advertised range being blatantly false), why buy a newer version of it? What purpose would that serve? What is the guarantee that even the newer version will have a "reportedly" dismal performance as its older sibling?

Or perhaps - JUST PERHAPS - the IAF actually knows what it is doing? You ever considered that possibility Vips? Air Combat is what they do for a living after all. They have been at it since 1932! Or as Sameer Joshi, former fighter pilot - Indian Air Force, states at the end of his article (https://theprint.in/defence/how-pakista ... cs/291522/)

As has been a case time immemorial, the Pakistan Air Force did not cater to the resolute resolve and superlative training levels of the Indian Air Force fighter pilots.

But the larger point and issue I have with your post (and which is why I replied) is like I stated in the last sentence of my reply to you ---> In your disdain for Russian maal, you are throwing logic and reasoning right out the window. Almost every post of yours I am reading now is bashing Russian maal. It is getting to be nauseating. We get it. You dislike Russia. Move On and Please Stop.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 18 Apr 2021 06:10

Rakesh wrote:
Vips wrote:Hold on Rakesh, where did i mention that the Russian missiles were duds? My comment was with respect to the Range. I mentioned claimed range for the newer version of R-77 was because the older version of R-77 were supposed to be good for range of 80-100 Kms and subsequently it emerged the effective range was 80 Kms.

My very first sentence in my reply to you was that the IAF was NOT OUTRANGED at Balakot with the R-77. BVR combat goes beyond advertised ranges and any missile's performance is dependent on a number of factors.
.


Another thing to note is that the r27 which the iaf has loaded up on in recent times, has a much longer range... over 120km iirc . These are sarh and not arh but the iaf still buys them, which comes back to your point about tactics.

I wouldn't be surprised if the mkis carried these on that fateful day. So I don't buy the outranged arguments pushed by a biased media.

Ruski stuff can have with issues no doubt. but there is no rule that says that western maal is automatically better because it is western. Or that it always performs better...

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 18 Apr 2021 07:59

To be fair this view about being outranged has stuck because there were some retired IAF officers who talked about this in the immediate aftermath of Feb 27. They were quick to point out that we countered this using better tactics, but nobody remembers that part. Even HVT sir has pointed out on Twitter that just because the max range quoted for one missile is slightly less than another that does not mean it cannot be used and that combat tactics are a lot more complex than simply firing at max ranges. They obviously can't say more than that because that would reveal actual IAF BVR tactics which they cannot do.

And on top of all this, the first thing the IAF did after the Feb 27 engagement was buy 400 R-77's.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 18 Apr 2021 08:12

Nobody remembers that part, because that is not what causes TRPs in TV and online news websites. Sad really, how a term (outranged) gets a life of its own and becomes truth.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Apr 2021 08:56

Rakesh, all said and done there was a lesson for entire GOI, there was an advance in PAF capabilities with the Block 50/52 and SAAB AEW which was not countered with any leap frogging in IAF technologies for a decade. If PAF keeps the same Aim 120C and , R77-1, Astra 1, Astra 2, SFDR, Meteor, MICA, our long range SAM, Aew coverage improve. Somewhere we have the desire these should turn out like the Arab Israeli air battles, then terrorism will completely move the Pakjab from Kashmir, but jingos need to accept the fact for thier own reasons world power keep arming Pakistan at their cost.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby vimal » 18 Apr 2021 09:40

nachiket wrote:
And on top of all this, the first thing the IAF did after the Feb 27 engagement was buy 400 R-77's.


Wasn’t aware of this “Emergency purchase”.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 18 Apr 2021 09:50

Aditya_V wrote:Rakesh, all said and done there was a lesson for entire GOI, there was an advance in PAF capabilities with the Block 50/52 and SAAB AEW which was not countered with any leap frogging in IAF technologies for a decade. If PAF keeps the same Aim 120C and , R77-1, Astra 1, Astra 2, SFDR, Meteor, MICA, our long range SAM, Aew coverage improve. Somewhere we have the desire these should turn out like the Arab Israeli air battles, then terrorism will completely move the Pakjab from Kashmir, but jingos need to accept the fact for thier own reasons world power keep arming Pakistan at their cost.


Really? What of the Netra and Phalcon? And how is the F-16 Block 50/52 superior to the Su-30 MKI overall, or the Mirage 2000 Upg, or the MiG-29 Upg? Each of these platforms has some advantages over what PAF has.

PAF achieved temporary numerical superiority and was still not able to convert it into a war winning game.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Apr 2021 11:27

Don't disagree there, PAF operation was Swift Retreat and not Swift Retort and was an utter failure and Pakistan closed their airspace for 4 months, but there are certain things which we could have improved, 1 in 2005 when the F16 deal was announced our GOI/MEA did not protest and accepted it, enough pressure we could have converted this from Aim 120C to Aim 120 B, the US sold the block 60 F16 to UAE with only Aim 120B due to Israeli sensitivities, PRC would not have accepted sales to Taiwan without protests like we did in the 2005-10 period.

2. We should have definitely gone in misson mode on Astra-1 or acquired R77-1 when the Russians did in 2015, Air Marshal Nambiar clearly stated that the Amraam in PAF service was superior weapon to our R-77 in service at that time in Feb 19.

3. Similarly SDR, etc. There are many things which we should have done better especially from the MOD, MEA prespective right from the early 2000's.

4. Clearly as whole the whole GOI apparatus does not seem to understand the need for IAF air dominance.

And lastly PAF must be the only airforce to have 6 out 7 misses for the Amraam within 10-15 minutes, should be missed be called Slammer while loosing a F16. Extrapolating Swift retreat . PAf F16 would have used up all Amraams for around 40 Mig 21 Bisons, Pakistan would be then be naked facing the rest of the IAF, it would be Logenwala multiplied by a million times.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 19 Apr 2021 00:26

Aditya_V wrote:Don't disagree there, PAF operation was Swift Retreat and not Swift Retort and was an utter failure and Pakistan closed their airspace for 4 months, but there are certain things which we could have improved, 1 in 2005 when the F16 deal was announced our GOI/MEA did not protest and accepted it, enough pressure we could have converted this from Aim 120C to Aim 120 B, the US sold the block 60 F16 to UAE with only Aim 120B due to Israeli sensitivities, PRC would not have accepted sales to Taiwan without protests like we did in the 2005-10 period.

2. We should have definitely gone in misson mode on Astra-1 or acquired R77-1 when the Russians did in 2015, Air Marshal Nambiar clearly stated that the Amraam in PAF service was superior weapon to our R-77 in service at that time in Feb 19.

3. Similarly SDR, etc. There are many things which we should have done better especially from the MOD, MEA prespective right from the early 2000's.

4. Clearly as whole the whole GOI apparatus does not seem to understand the need for IAF air dominance.

And lastly PAF must be the only airforce to have 6 out 7 misses for the Amraam within 10-15 minutes, should be missed be called Slammer while loosing a F16. Extrapolating Swift retreat . PAf F16 would have used up all Amraams for around 40 Mig 21 Bisons, Pakistan would be then be naked facing the rest of the IAF, it would be Logenwala multiplied by a million times.


1. You are making an assumption that these missiles were available for export and ready for integration for us. We don't know that. R77-1 wasnt even in mass RusAF service till recently.
2. Ditto for GOI protest. The weapons were sold to deter us. Our protesting wouldnt make any difference, even though we did protest.
3. GOI apparatus under UPA saw some level of drift, sure. Same isnt necessarily the case now.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby V_Raman » 19 Apr 2021 14:59

From https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/ ... ray-radar/

I am not able to cut/paste - the last paragraph states that MKI failed to get a lock on F16s in Kashmir due to BARS radar limitations!

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Apr 2021 15:41

V_Raman wrote:From https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/ ... ray-radar/

I am not able to cut/paste - the last paragraph states that MKI failed to get a lock on F16s in Kashmir due to BARS radar limitations!


This looks a hit job and should be taken seriously.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Apr 2021 15:41

V_Raman wrote:From https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/ ... ray-radar/

I am not able to cut/paste - the last paragraph states that MKI failed to get a lock on F16s in Kashmir due to BARS radar limitations!

idiotic reasoning. At best half truths. It is true that the bars/r77 would have had a harder time locking on to and downing a receding f-16 vs an f-16 firing an amraam vs. an approaching target (bison). BUT it is patently false that an r77 was ever fired vs. the f-16. Their baloney is belied by the fact that one of the first things the IAF did after those incidents was to buy more r77s and even express serious interest in more MKI/Mig-29.

Other than its airframe design, the bars is like the crown jewel of the MKI. And, has allowed the IAF to come up tops in every DACT exercise vs. any/all F-teens.

Damn I wish the IAF had truly taken the fight into TSP and downed a bunch of the fizzle fighters - wouldn't have to hear such BS from BSers all over the place. From Fair bibi to Totalfail and now these "defensecorp".

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Apr 2021 17:06

Cain Marko wrote:
V_Raman wrote:From https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/ ... ray-radar/



Damn I wish the IAF had truly taken the fight into TSP and downed a bunch of the fizzle fighters - wouldn't have to hear such BS from BSers all over the place. From Fair bibi to Totalfail and now these "defensecorp".


They will still deny even if 50 F-16's crash within Pakistan, US knows the true Paki F-16 crash rate, that the F-16 went down to the Pakis on 27-Feb-19 and 6 Amraams missed, but they choose to keep quiet on these.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 21 Apr 2021 15:09



Back to back landings of 4 MKI's. Every alternate one is carrying the SAP-518 SPJ pods. Maybe each of them is expected to protect their respective wingmen. I have seen this tactic used in DCS, not sure if it actually works in real life. The idea is that as long as the two aircraft are flying in close proximity, the false radar returns produced by the jammer on one should help mask the other one to some extent.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 22 Apr 2021 06:14

^^^
For big fighters with powerful radars, I don’t think you want them to be flying in close proximity during engagement, especially in the day of long range BVR AAMs.

Probably, one without SPJ could hang back at a safe distance and paint the target while the one with SPJ moves in closer for a shot using ODL data from the other. Also, lock on after launch (LOAL) could be taken over by the one hanging back.

Image
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Another scenario would be non-SPJ aircraft acting as a decoy. In which case, your description would come into play where approach would be masked by close-proximity buddy SPJ and then separation would create the non-SPJ aircraft as decoy.

Image

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby mody » 26 Apr 2021 20:36

Can the AL-31 engines of the Su-30MKI be upgraded as part of the deal with Rolls Royce or Safran? The deal for the development of a 110KN thrust engine for the AMCA and eventually for the Tejas MK-2 and also the TEDBF is likely to go through. Some reports indicate that RR is asking for larger quantities to share the IP. On the lines of upgrading the Kaveri by replacing the hot section core, with a core developed by Safran, can the Su-30MKI engines also be upgraded based on the technology developed for the next gen 110KN engine?

If this is possible, the joint venture with whichever international partner should have this as a project too, besides the development of the 110KN engine. For the Su-30MKI, 550 engines would need to be upgraded. That is a huge requirement. If the engine thrust can be increased to say 140-145KN, from the current 125KN, that would be great.
We are already building/assembling the engines in India and also overhauling the same. The Russians might not be happy, but if this can be done in house, with technology much better that what is currently present in the Al-31 engines, then it would a big boost.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Vivek K » 26 Apr 2021 21:10

Is the AL-31 still giving problems? Premature failures?

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 26 Apr 2021 22:29

Vivek K wrote:Is the AL-31 still giving problems? Premature failures?

No but if we are replacing the Bars with an upscaled Uttam or even a more powerful Russian radar it will have higher power and cooling requirements which might mean the need for more powerful engines. But working with RR or some other western manufacturer for that is a non-starter. It would be a years long project to develop a new engine or even modify the AL-31 without help from the OEM, if even it is possible. We would be better off looking at ready-made solution from Saturn itself like the AL-41F1S.

But from what we have heard so far, an engine change is not envisaged for the Super-30 upgrade, so this is moot.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 26 Apr 2021 22:44

Yes, HVT Sir has confirmed that no engine change is on the cards for the Su-30MKI

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Apr 2021 01:03

Rakesh wrote:Yes, HVT Sir has confirmed that no engine change is on the cards for the Su-30MKI

That sucks! But I don't think anything is set in stone just yet wrt MKI upg. We may just see izd 130 on it :shock: :D

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby brar_w » 27 Apr 2021 01:38

Given that this will likely be a 10-15 year upgrade cycle, hope they better have at least the elements well defined and technologies mature at this point so that the IAF can begin to buy the upgrades and establish an overhaul and upgrade cadence.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 27 Apr 2021 05:50

Folks any one description of SU-30MKI upgrade?


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